W_TROIA@UPR1.UPR.CUN.EDU ("Paolo V. Troia") (12/05/90)
Hello, netters! I'm looking for reviews/reccomendations on submarine
simulation games. I used to play Silent Service in my C64 days, and was
wondering what's available for the Amiga today.
I'm particularly interested in hearing of the following:
Harpoon
Red Storm Rising
688 Attack Sub
Thanks!
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Paolo V. Troia | Universidad de Puerto Rico | // Amiga
w_troia@upr1.upr.clu.edu | Recinto Universitario de Mayaguez | \X/ o nada!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------huebner@aerospace.aero.org (12/06/90)
In article <F4E864B5371F00E35A@UPR1.UPR.CUN.EDU> Paolo writes: |> |> Hello, netters! I'm looking for reviews/reccomendations on submarine |> simulation games. I used to play Silent Service in my C64 days, and was |> wondering what's available for the Amiga today. |> |> I'm particularly interested in hearing of the following: |> |> Harpoon |> Red Storm Rising |> 688 Attack Sub |> |> Thanks! |> I've played the first two so I'll make some brief comments. The first I played was 688 attack sub. I really like this game. My roommates and I all got really involved with it. The user interface is good, since you can bring up the various sonar maps and target tracks from any of the main screens. A lot of sub games bother me because you have to switch to different screens to see whats going on but in 688 its always there. The 3-D view (simple line-drawn but effective) is particular intriguing if you are navigating a trench or figting in close quarters. I don't think the game play is particularly accurate here. A lot of realism (particularly regarding control of torpoedoes) is removed and I think the whole game moves faster than reality (this was intentional according to the manual). Other favorable points- good sound samples, sufficient reality for non-military afficionados (does cavitation, thermal layers, towed array, etc), bug-free. It is also manual protected. Overall, I think a lot of thought went into making this a playable game- very intuitive, all the controls and indications where they should be, good look and feel. Red Storm rising I bought later on. First of all, there was a problem with the maps. Ie: they were put into the Amiga versions. Really annoying since navigation is a major part. This one is more of a whole-war simulation including spy satellite tracks, sonar buoy sensors, and so on. Where in 688 you have only 2 sub options for any one mission, this one gives you a choice of era and sub, as well as various levels of difficulty. You can do an all-out war or just an isolated incident. Game play was okay, but I was sort of disappointed by the graphics during play. I kept waiting for the neat pictures of various sub stations (there aren't any, you push function keys, not on-screen buttons). They keyboard overlay was helpful, but some of the key choices seemed pretty stupid to me (and they cannot be changed). Gameplay is more realistic, I think. You must exercise more control over your torpedo shots in this game. All the screens look pretty much the same here (Its hard to tell if you're in the weapons screen, sonar screen, etc. They all look similar- dominated by an area map). It is also much tougher than 688 even on the easiest level. The little "war updates" which occurr between encounters help get you into the game, as you can see how your exploits help or hurt the war effort. Also manual protected (and the things you have to ID from the manual are so similar I often get it wrong anyway!) Overall, if you want a quick game you can pick up and enjoy, 688 is more accessible. For the long-haul, it seems like Red Storm Rising might provide longer enjoyment because of a seemingly limitless variety of encounters and locales. For my interests (I'm not a die-hard realist and prefer a faster-paced games with nice graphics) I'd give 688 and 9 and Red Storm an 8. Both games have a permanent place (near the front) of my disk box. Also, from what I've heard, Harpoon is even more realism-wargame oriented than Red Storm, but I'm sure someone else will comment on that one. I'm seriously thinking of picking it up. ---- Robert Huebner huebner@en.ecn.purdue.edu "Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." ----
xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Nigel Tzeng) (12/07/90)
In article <93515@aerospace.AERO.ORG>, huebner@aerospace.aero.org writes... ^ ^In article <F4E864B5371F00E35A@UPR1.UPR.CUN.EDU> Paolo writes: ^|> ^|> Hello, netters! I'm looking for reviews/reccomendations on submarine ^|> simulation games. I used to play Silent Service in my C64 days, and was ^|> wondering what's available for the Amiga today. ^|> ^|> I'm particularly interested in hearing of the following: ^|> ^|> Harpoon ^|> Red Storm Rising ^|> 688 Attack Sub ^|> ^|> Thanks! ^|> ^ ^I've played the first two so I'll make some brief comments. ^ ^The first I played was 688 attack sub. I really like this game. My ^roommates and I all got really involved with it. The user interface The best aspect of this game is the head to head play that is allowed. Actually I don't know if this available in the Amiga version but it sure was on the IBM. ^is good, since you can bring up the various sonar maps and target tracks ^from any of the main screens. A lot of sub games bother me because you ^have to switch to different screens to see whats going on but in 688 ^its always there. The 3-D view (simple line-drawn but effective) is ^particular intriguing if you are navigating a trench or figting in close ^quarters. I don't think the game play is particularly accurate here. Amusing if unrealistic. I can't imagine there being one on a real sub. Not saying this is bad but if realism is a big point in your selection 688 is out. ^A lot of realism (particularly regarding control of torpoedoes) is removed ^and I think the whole game moves faster than reality (this was intentional ^according to the manual). Other favorable points- good sound samples, Actually I thought that they didn't want to do any time compression...hence the messed up weapon systems (everything limited to 10nm). After all if you don't do time compression you don't want the player to wait a half hour to see if the torp hit ;-). I wasn't sure at the time if this was just sloppy programming or what...just that it was a real irritant. ^sufficient reality for non-military afficionados (does cavitation, ^thermal layers, towed array, etc), bug-free. It is also manual ^protected. Overall, I think a lot of thought went into making this ^a playable game- very intuitive, all the controls and indications ^where they should be, good look and feel. ^ ^Red Storm rising I bought later on. First of all, there was a problem ^with the maps. Ie: they were put into the Amiga versions. Really ^annoying since navigation is a major part. This one is more of a Eh? I'm not sure what you mean here. ^whole-war simulation including spy satellite tracks, sonar buoy ^sensors, and so on. Where in 688 you have only 2 sub options for any ^one mission, this one gives you a choice of era and sub, as well as ^various levels of difficulty. You can do an all-out war or just an ^isolated incident. Game play was okay, but I was sort of disappointed ^by the graphics during play. I kept waiting for the neat pictures of What graphics ;-). There isn't much. I played it at the store and it seems to look pretty much like the IBM version (at which I've wasted countless hours ;-). ^various sub stations (there aren't any, you push function keys, not ^on-screen buttons). They keyboard overlay was helpful, but some of Yep. I actually liked this better than the Silent Service style of switching stations to do different things. I recall 688 hot keys to switch stations quickly but I never learned these. Quite important to do so. ^the key choices seemed pretty stupid to me (and they cannot be changed). ^Gameplay is more realistic, I think. You must exercise more control over ^your torpedo shots in this game. All the screens look pretty much the ^same here (Its hard to tell if you're in the weapons screen, sonar screen, ^etc. They all look similar- dominated by an area map). It is also ^much tougher than 688 even on the easiest level. The little "war updates" Yep. The key choices are the typical MicroProse style. The ability to fine tune things is one of the most fun parts of the game. By selecting the correct waypoint for your torpedo runs the counterfire never comes close to where you are (standard tactic is to fire a torp back down the path of the incomming torpedo to hopefully make the sub run...thereby losing the wire guidance). ^which occurr between encounters help get you into the game, as you can ^see how your exploits help or hurt the war effort. Also manual protected ^(and the things you have to ID from the manual are so similar I often get ^it wrong anyway!) Hmmm...It got to the point where I didn't need the manual after a while. Same for the other MicroProse games... ^ ^Overall, if you want a quick game you can pick up and enjoy, 688 is more ^accessible. For the long-haul, it seems like Red Storm Rising might provide ^longer enjoyment because of a seemingly limitless variety of encounters ^and locales. For my interests (I'm not a die-hard realist and prefer a I liked RSR but after a while the encounters started looking the same. By knocking the difficulty up the scnearios got real tough but you could expect pretty much the same mix of ships in the different groups. There are three or four basic mission types with one or two one-shot missions (like fire TLAMs at murmansk or sink the boomer). Just how realistic is the counter measures in the game? Do subs really carry noisemakers and decoys in such copious quantities? Do they really work that well? Clancy notwithstanding I've never really heard much about these things in real life. Not surprising really ;-). ^faster-paced games with nice graphics) I'd give 688 and 9 and ^Red Storm an 8. Both games have a permanent place (near the front) of ^my disk box. ^ ^Also, from what I've heard, Harpoon is even more realism-wargame oriented ^than Red Storm, but I'm sure someone else will comment on that one. I'm ^seriously thinking of picking it up. Nope. As some posts here have said...Harpoon ASW is lacking in many ways. It is an artifact of the board game ASW rules. There is no fine control over sub combat. But it is fun in many other ways. I'm buying RSR and from past play I give it a 9. It is after all MicroProse ;-). Harpoon is buggy at times...7 or 8. It'll go up with the addition of a scenario editor. ^ ^---- ^Robert Huebner huebner@en.ecn.purdue.edu ^ "Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes ^ it rains." ^---- NT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- // | Nigel Tzeng - STX Inc - NASA/GSFC COBE Project \X/ | xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov | Amiga | Standard Disclaimer Applies: The opinions expressed are my own.
ztsindi@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Bill Gant) (12/17/90)
In article <F4E864B5371F00E35A@UPR1.UPR.CUN.EDU>, W_TROIA@UPR1.UPR.CUN.EDU ("Paolo V. Troia") writes... > > Hello, netters! I'm looking for reviews/reccomendations on submarine >simulation games. I used to play Silent Service in my C64 days, and was >wondering what's available for the Amiga today. > > I'm particularly interested in hearing of the following: > > Harpoon > Red Storm Rising > 688 Attack Sub > > Thanks! > Posted for Clayton J. Miner...Text to Follow ----------------------------------------------------------------- | Todd G Vaarwerk | Bitnet: ZTSINDI@UBVMS | | State University of | Internet: ZTSINDI@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU | | New York at Buffalo | VAARWERK@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Disclaimer: Believe what you want .. I trashed all my views of| | reality ages ago d8-) | ----------------------------------------------------------------- Greetings. Mayhap I can be of some assistance in this area, having played three of the games you mention, and observing the fourth. I too have played Silent Service on the C64/128 platform, and if you can find it for the Amiga, go out and get it. It is still a great game and the graphics (although not to current standards) are better than the C64's. You do not mention Sub Battle Simulator by Epyx. Good. Despite it having a number of interesting features, it was poorly concieved and what could have been a great simulator was ruinedby the poor presentation. Red Storm rising is probably your best bet if you do not rate the game soley by sound or graphics. The sounds are well done for the environment the programme is simulationg, but the graphics can be sparce in places and cartoony in others. Still, the game play is intense and I got sweating when accquired as a target those first few times. There are a number of option levels that keep the game challenging, although a scenario editor would have really spiced things up. 688 Attack Sub is more graphically oriented, but in some ways a little more limited in scopre. Definately worth looking at if you are a grpahics person as some of the graphics are great. The maps are outstanding and some of those missions are real tough, even in practise. Again a scenario editor would have been a plus, and the bozos at EA disabled the modem option which really snorks me off. As to which one to get... I got both! They have different approaches and are both excellent programmes. If you can afford both, go get them. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Wing Commander Skeksis - Reality Engineer | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Clayton J. Miner | Bitnet: ZTSINDI@UBVMS | | -------------------- | Internet: ZTSINDI@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | The views of this post are not the views of this host organization. | | They ARE, however, the views of the SysOp of the Known World BBS. | | 300-1200-2400 bps, 24 hours mostly. A SkyLine BBS. | | (716)-883-3083 | -----------------------------------------------------------------------
ztsindi@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Bill Gant) (12/17/90)
Posted for Clayton J. Miner...Text to Follow ----------------------------------------------------------------- | Todd G Vaarwerk | Bitnet: ZTSINDI@UBVMS | | State University of | Internet: ZTSINDI@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU | | New York at Buffalo | VAARWERK@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Disclaimer: Believe what you want .. I trashed all my views of| | reality ages ago d8-) | ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >The best aspect of this game is the head to head play that is allowed. >Actually I don't know if this available in the Amiga version but it sure was on >the IBM. Nope, sorry. Head-to-head mode disabled on the Amiga version. Bastards... >Amusing if unrealistic. I can't imagine there being one on a real sub. Not >saying this is bad but if realism is a big point in your selection 688 is out. Yup. Side scan sonar technology is even used in commercial shipping and salavage ops these days. Granted the display is 'fudged' to make it more understadable to the gamer, but the basic idea is there. > >Actually I thought that they didn't want to do any time compression...hence >the messed up weapon systems (everything limited to 10nm). After all if you >don't do time compression you don't want the player to wait a half hour to see >if the torp hit ;-). I wasn't sure at the time if this was just sloppy >programming or what...just that it was a real irritant. Game design. The idea is to spend your time positioning, not waiting for the hit. I guess that the designers feel that in a shooting war, the first to launch the warhead is the victor. Kinda narrow-minded, G.I. Joe inspired viewpoint. > >I liked RSR but after a while the encounters started looking the same. By >knocking the difficulty up the scnearios got real tough but you could expect >pretty much the same mix of ships in the different groups. There are three or >four basic mission types with one or two one-shot missions (like fire TLAMs at >murmansk or sink the boomer). I noticed that too... > >Just how realistic is the counter measures in the game? Do subs really carry >noisemakers and decoys in such copious quantities? Do they really work that >well? Clancy notwithstanding I've never really heard much about these things >in real life. Not surprising really ;-). They do in fact exist. I have spoken with John-Allen Price (author of Extinction Cruise) who did the hands-on research and came up with some interesting stats. Underwater warfare is a lot different these days. > >Nope. As some posts here have said...Harpoon ASW is lacking in many ways. It >is an artifact of the board game ASW rules. There is no fine control over sub >combat. But it is fun in many other ways. Harpoon. ugh... Lousy graphics. Good idea, unpleasant to look at. Having the built in scenario editor is a plus though. Damn graphics are a CGA port though,as are the sfx... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Wing Commander Skeksis - Reality Engineer | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Clayton J. Miner | Bitnet: ZTSINDI@UBVMS | | -------------------- | Internet: ZTSINDI@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | The views of this post are not the views of this host organization. | | They ARE, however, the views of the SysOp of the Known World BBS. | | 300-1200-2400 bps, 24 hours mostly. A SkyLine BBS. | | (716)-883-3083 | -----------------------------------------------------------------------