manes@vger.nsu.edu (12/13/90)
In article <9424@mirsa.inria.fr>, buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: > In article <22110@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: >> colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: > > [Relatively good comments about OS Resource Usage from Mike..deleted] > > You compare Powermonger and Dpaint. Are you mad ??? I haven't got 5 megs of > memory, and I don't want disk access only because one crazy programmer wrote > his game so that people with a lot of memory won't have any disk access. Here, take this, its a tissue. Wipe the tears from your eyes. Maybe Santa will be good to you this year and get you a memory upgrade. > > Powermonger is nice in the fact that it didn't make any disk acess once the > games is started. Between a lot of disk access (overlays) and multitasking > (which I really don't care on my "normal" amiga) and people with a lot of You don't care about multitasking? I wonder why you bought a Amiga then. Personally I detest programs that shut down the multitasking system when it is not necessary. There *are* programs (games) that *require* the dumping of the Amiga operating system for speed etc., however most games that I have seen do nothing all that special. It appears that most game writers don't want to learn the Amiga environment; and opt for the 'easy'. > memory happy, and no disk acess for everybody (more fun to play a game without > disk access) and some Mike Farren's unhappy on the net, my choice is evident. > And don't forget that in the world thare are 5/6 of Amiga 500 with 512k, > single drive. For those people who think I was wrong about the seperating the Amiga line. I offer you this gentleman for your review. He bought his amiga to play games, he doesn't appear to want (need?) AmigaDOS 2.0, as it might require more memory. Lets get Commodore to rename the A500 to Nintendo Plus before it is too late! :-) > > HEY MIKE ! What games did you write so that you can give such "good" advices ? Whoa! Are you saying that Mike is not entitled to an opinion? From what platform do you spout your stuff from. Too me, you sound like a frustrated ex-Commodore 64 owner. > Did you write better games than Populous and Powermonger ? Using only the Rom > code ? Well, why don't you write your own version of Powermonger, with > multitasking capabilities, overlays everywhere, HD installability, full > compatibility with every computer on the earth, better animation, better > graphics... Why aren't you on the cover of a magazine ? Please... > > I'm really fed-up with all these people who talk about programming techniques > and never wrote a GOOD game. Mike, I tried once one of your game in a shop, > and I'm sorry but it was terrible. The animation was slow, slow... Ans so long > to load with a single drive... I can not even remeber the name of this game. I think you can get your memory loss problem solved by seeing a doctor. It seems strange that you can remember an author and not a title of a program. I am fed up with people who don't want to push the manufactures to do what ought to be done, just because it does not effect them. I am fed up with the memory-whiners. I can't possibly believe that you said you tried one of Mike's games and found it to be lousy. What programs have you ever written for public consumption!? My friend, you speak from a un-informed viewpoint. I have written several PC (text) games for the BBS market, and text oriented game programming for the commercial market is no piece of cake. I strongly suggest that you write a program and support it. > > Tell us what good games you wrote. We'll make a vote, and if it seems for > everybody that they are good games, then we will listen to you. Rude.. very rude. > > Bullfrog wrote Populous, wrote Powermonger, Flood. They are all good games. Do > you think they never thought about writing the game only using the Rom code, > multitask, and so on... They are good programmers, they are not Dumb people. > They certainly tried this before and discovered that making a good scrolling > with the Scrollraster function is impossible, that multitasking games that use > a lot of computing power are too slow on Amiga without accelerator cards. > You know mike, in 10k, you can put a lot of nice sound effects. I prefer > programmers who give me good sound effects (like in Powermonger) than > programmers who write a bad multitasking OS friendly game with poor sound > effects. Lets name this the "Nintendo mentality". Note this paragraph and allow it to sink in. This type of thinking will be the un-doing of the Amiga. > > Tell me ONE good arcade game that multitask on the amiga. > Perahps if you define good. I happen to like MindWalker. > And don't forget, I want to know the games you wrote. > -- > ------------------------------------------ > Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France > > Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr > Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis, > 2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE > Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65 > ------------------------------------------ -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) (12/13/90)
In article <361.276631c6@vger.nsu.edu>, manes@vger.nsu.edu writes: > In article <9424@mirsa.inria.fr>, buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: > > In article <22110@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: > >> colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: > > > > [Relatively good comments about OS Resource Usage from Mike..deleted] > > > > You compare Powermonger and Dpaint. Are you mad ??? I haven't got 5 megs of > > memory, and I don't want disk access only because one crazy programmer wrote > > his game so that people with a lot of memory won't have any disk access. > > Here, take this, its a tissue. Wipe the tears from your eyes. Maybe > Santa will be good to you this year and get you a memory upgrade. Good argumentation isn't it ? I haven't got money to spend for this. I just want to have fun, and people like you think a game should be written like a word processor. I hate computer freaks like you, people who masturbate themselves in front of the screen of their sacred machine. Have you got commodore shares ? > > Powermonger is nice in the fact that it didn't make any disk acess once the > > games is started. Between a lot of disk access (overlays) and multitasking > > (which I really don't care on my "normal" amiga) and people with a lot of > > You don't care about multitasking? I wonder why you bought a Amiga then. Playing games. Huh !!! This is comp.sys.amiga.games. not comp.sys.amiga.multitasking. > Personally I detest programs that shut down the multitasking system when it > is not necessary. There *are* programs (games) that *require* the dumping > of the Amiga operating system for speed etc., however most games that I > have seen do nothing all that special. You haven't tried many games apparently. Try X-OUT, R-TYPE, BATTLE SQUADRON, SILKWORM, TURRICAN, LOTUS ESPRIT TURBO, and you'll understand quite easily why these games don't multitask. It appears that most game writers > don't want to learn the Amiga environment; and opt for the 'easy'. Easy to write Powermonger ? Come on... > > memory happy, and no disk acess for everybody (more fun to play a game without > > disk access) and some Mike Farren's unhappy on the net, my choice is evident. > > And don't forget that in the world thare are 5/6 of Amiga 500 with 512k, > > single drive. > > For those people who think I was wrong about the seperating the Amiga line. > I offer you this gentleman for your review. He bought his amiga to play > games, he doesn't appear to want (need?) AmigaDOS 2.0, as it might require > more memory. Lets get Commodore to rename the A500 to Nintendo Plus > before it is too late! :-) And so ? Why do you think most people buy an A 500 ? For playing games. In europe the A500 is considered as the best micro computer for playing games. If I really wanted to work, I wouldn't have a simple Amiga. I'm doing a Phd in computer engineering, and spend all the day with my sparc station, compiling C programs. Do you really thing that once at home, I'll make programs, type in a report using a word processor ?????? NO ! I put a game in, push CTRL-A-A, and just have fun. What's wrong with that. We are talking about games, don't forget that. > > HEY MIKE ! What games did you write so that you can give such "good" advices ? > > Whoa! Are you saying that Mike is not entitled to an opinion? From what > platform do you spout your stuff from. Too me, you sound like a frustrated > ex-Commodore 64 owner. No. I had an Apple II. > > Did you write better games than Populous and Powermonger ? Using only the Rom > > code ? Well, why don't you write your own version of Powermonger, with > > multitasking capabilities, overlays everywhere, HD installability, full > > compatibility with every computer on the earth, better animation, better > > graphics... Why aren't you on the cover of a magazine ? > > Please... Why please ? Mike farren always says the same thing on the net, when we try to talk about games he doesn't say "what a great game, I had hundreds hours of fun", he says "the game doesn't multitask, don't buy it". I'm just fed up !!! > > I'm really fed-up with all these people who talk about programming techniques > > and never wrote a GOOD game. Mike, I tried once one of your game in a shop, > > and I'm sorry but it was terrible. The animation was slow, slow... Ans so long > > to load with a single drive... I can not even remeber the name of this game. > > I think you can get your memory loss problem solved by seeing a doctor. > It seems strange that you can remember an author and not a title of a > program. Yes, because the game wasn't noticeable at all and Mike is. > I am fed up with people who don't want to push the manufactures to do what > ought to be done, just because it does not effect them. I am fed up with > the memory-whiners. I can't possibly believe that you said you tried one > of Mike's games and found it to be lousy. What programs have you ever > written for public consumption!? You don't understand. Buy a magazine about games, and read it. They never talk about multitasking, HD installability... I really don't care of Commodore. If tomorrow there is a better computer for games, I'll buy it. I'm not defending my computer like it was my wife. I havent' got any commodore shares. I expected people in this newsgroup to talk about good games, but the newsgroup is polluted by people like you. I posted a lot of messages with reviews of Turrican, cadaver, Flood. This is what should be in comp.sys.amiga.GAMES. > > My friend, you speak from a un-informed viewpoint. I have written > several PC (text) games for the BBS market, and text oriented game > programming for the commercial market is no piece of cake. I > strongly suggest that you write a program and support it. Why ? I just talked about Mike Farren's games. I don't care if he writes bad games, but if he wrote good games, I just want to know which ones. I then will go to a shop, try them, and if they are good I'll certainly buy some. But I hate people who say "this game is not well written" when they talk about a very good game, and talk like they could have done the same thing much better. > > Tell us what good games you wrote. We'll make a vote, and if it seems for > > everybody that they are good games, then we will listen to you. > > Rude.. very rude. Rude, but normal. If Mike says simple thing like "Wow, in the level five of X-out this is the way to beat the big monster:..." I'll listen to him. But instead he says "Don't buy this game, the autghors are lazy programmers, it's not well written, I know very well the system...." > > Bullfrog wrote Populous, wrote Powermonger, Flood. They are all good games. Do > > you think they never thought about writing the game only using the Rom code, > > multitask, and so on... They are good programmers, they are not Dumb people. > > They certainly tried this before and discovered that making a good scrolling > > with the Scrollraster function is impossible, that multitasking games that use > > a lot of computing power are too slow on Amiga without accelerator cards. > > You know mike, in 10k, you can put a lot of nice sound effects. I prefer > > programmers who give me good sound effects (like in Powermonger) than > > programmers who write a bad multitasking OS friendly game with poor sound > > effects. > > Lets name this the "Nintendo mentality". Note this paragraph and allow > it to sink in. This type of thinking will be the un-doing of the Amiga. Forget the Amiga. The amiga 500 market is very much the same as the nintendo market. The only difference is that the variety of games is much bigger on the amiga. As Kent sayd in the very first review of Powermonger, 5/6 of the amiga market for games is made of A500 owners with only 512k. Should they be killed, or maybe should they all buy a memory expansion for you to be happy ? > > Tell me ONE good arcade game that multitask on the amiga. > > Perahps if you define good. I happen to like MindWalker. One point for you. Tell me another one ! ------------------------------------------ Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis, 2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65 ------------------------------------------
manes@vger.nsu.edu (12/13/90)
In article <9436@mirsa.inria.fr>, buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: > In article <361.276631c6@vger.nsu.edu>, manes@vger.nsu.edu writes: >> In article <9424@mirsa.inria.fr>, buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: >> > In article <22110@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: >> >> colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: > > [Lots of good and important flaming that is sure to change the world > deleted] Ok, I will try one more time Michel. Would you agree that: 1. If it is not necessary, then the Amiga OS should not be tossed? 2. Game manufacturers should cater to the biggest audience possible? Unfortunately you seem to be a product from the "me" generation. If it doesn't affect me then it surely doesn't matter. Unlike you, I bought my Amiga to do work and on the side play games. Yes, I *am* a power Amiga user, certainly no crime in that. When I spend a great deal of money on a system that has some of the greatest features of any microcomputer, it is unbelievable to me that a game manufacturer would toss the best features so that they can do their "specail programming" techniques, without exhausting the possiblities under the given programming environment. I will grant that there _are_ situations where the graphics and game play that can be achieved by going directly to hardware is greater than what you can get using the standard Amiga operating system. HOWEVER, in my opinion, MOST games that I have seen certainly have not pushed the Amiga to its limit. Most of the time it appears that the programmers opted to NOT learn the methods for good high speed programming under AmigaDOS, but went for their own custom (easier?) method. Why? Mostly for copy protection reasons, with the excuse that they are making the most of the hardware. As far as the Amiga 500 is concerned; I think it is a great machine and certainly capable of wonderful things. You need to have another look under the hood and realize that there is a reason for the rabidness of the Amiga community. You go ahead and play on your all-to-expensive SPARC station, but when the world passes you by don't cry, don't even sniffle. In 8 short years we have seen computer technology jump from trivial to quite powerful. Wonder what will happen in the next two years? If programmers adhered to certain standards all of the community prospers not just the few who don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. I don't have a Amiga 500 and I don't just have 512k. I refuse to purchase a piece of software that hoses my operating system unless it is something very very significant. Like Toaster and yes, Powermunger. Now clear the tears from your eyes. It really is ok. You can still play games on your A500. I promise not to take it away from you. After all, we need to have someone to flame besides MB. > > ------------------------------------------ > Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France ^^^^^^ Isn't this the country that would not let us fly our bombers over their skies when we wanted to give a big box of chocolates to Kadaffi? > > Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr > Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis, > 2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE > Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65 > ------------------------------------------ -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Nigel Tzeng) (12/14/90)
In article <9436@mirsa.inria.fr>, buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes... ^In article <361.276631c6@vger.nsu.edu>, manes@vger.nsu.edu writes: ^> In article <9424@mirsa.inria.fr>, buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: ^> > In article <22110@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: ^> >> colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: ^> > [memory comments deleted - like buy some more...] ^ ^Good argumentation isn't it ? I haven't got money to spend for this. I just ^want to have fun, and people like you think a game should be written like a ^word processor. I hate computer freaks like you, people who masturbate ^themselves in front of the screen of their sacred machine. Have you got ^commodore shares ? Ohhh...what a witty comeback. An interesting comment. I don't know what games cost over in france but they average about $40+ over here. Don't buy four or five games and you should be able to afford a A501 card. This makes sense even for just game playing as a lot of games are going to the 1 meg required mode. After all there is just so much you can cram into 512K. ^ [multitasking and other comments deleted for brevity] ^ ^> > HEY MIKE ! What games did you write so that you can give such "good" advices ? ^> ^> Whoa! Are you saying that Mike is not entitled to an opinion? From what ^> platform do you spout your stuff from. Too me, you sound like a frustrated ^> ex-Commodore 64 owner. ^ ^No. I had an Apple II. Doesn't matter if you write programs or not in order to have an opinion. For instance I don't build cars but I have minimum specifications for the car that I will buy (0-60 in under 9 sec is a min ;-). If it doesn't meet my specs I won't buy it. I will also tell people who are looking for the same thing not to buy it. ^ ^> > Did you write better games than Populous and Powermonger ? Using only the Rom ^> > code ? Well, why don't you write your own version of Powermonger, with ^> > multitasking capabilities, overlays everywhere, HD installability, full ^> > compatibility with every computer on the earth, better animation, better ^> > graphics... Why aren't you on the cover of a magazine ? ^> ^> Please... ^ ^Why please ? Mike farren always says the same thing on the net, when we try to ^talk about games he doesn't say "what a great game, I had hundreds hours of ^fun", he says "the game doesn't multitask, don't buy it". I'm just fed up !!! ^ You know...I'm curious...just how many games have you written? Not fair to ask? Okay how about how many games do you own? I own at least 15 (memory is going...at least two shelves full) which at say $25 apiece means I've dumped $375 bucks into the entertainment industry (more...most were bought for about $45 each...like Harpoon, Battle of Britain and so on). And I agree with Mike. I expect high quality work in my games. This means no kludges. This means that it better work on my system with no hassles. [more whining over whether or not Mike Farren writes decent games deleted] ^ ^You don't understand. Buy a magazine about games, and read it. They never talk ^about multitasking, HD installability... I really don't care of Commodore. If ^tomorrow there is a better computer for games, I'll buy it. I'm not defending ^my computer like it was my wife. I havent' got any commodore shares. I ^expected people in this newsgroup to talk about good games, but the newsgroup ^is polluted by people like you. I posted a lot of messages with reviews of ^Turrican, cadaver, Flood. This is what should be in comp.sys.amiga.GAMES. Bullshit. I want to know which games will work on my machine without killing everything else on it. I want to know which game will grind my drives for no good reason. If it won't run I don't care if it is the hottest game since Pong because it WON'T RUN. ^> ^> My friend, you speak from a un-informed viewpoint. I have written ^> several PC (text) games for the BBS market, and text oriented game ^> programming for the commercial market is no piece of cake. I ^> strongly suggest that you write a program and support it. ^ ^Why ? I just talked about Mike Farren's games. I don't care if he writes bad ^games, but if he wrote good games, I just want to know which ones. I then will ^go to a shop, try them, and if they are good I'll certainly buy some. But I ^hate people who say "this game is not well written" when they talk about a ^very good game, and talk like they could have done the same thing much better. ^ ^> > Tell us what good games you wrote. We'll make a vote, and if it seems for ^> > everybody that they are good games, then we will listen to you. ^> ^> Rude.. very rude. ^ ^Rude, but normal. If Mike says simple thing like "Wow, in the level five of At the risk of sounding rude myself...but I've noticed that German (and other European) posters tend to be more polite than...say...French ones. I certainly can't recall another post by anyone that claims I masturbate in front of my machine ;-). Veeerry kinky but not quite my style. ^X-out this is the way to beat the big monster:..." I'll listen to him. But ^instead he says "Don't buy this game, the autghors are lazy programmers, it's ^not well written, I know very well the system...." ^ [more deleted] ^> ^> Lets name this the "Nintendo mentality". Note this paragraph and allow ^> it to sink in. This type of thinking will be the un-doing of the Amiga. ^ ^Forget the Amiga. The amiga 500 market is very much the same as the nintendo ^market. The only difference is that the variety of games is much bigger on the ^amiga. As Kent sayd in the very first review of Powermonger, 5/6 of the amiga ^market for games is made of A500 owners with only 512k. Should they be killed, ^or maybe should they all buy a memory expansion for you to be happy ? Okay, lets be blunt. I find it hard to believe that anyone who can afford dozens of games can't come up with the cash for a A501 card. Even at European prices. After all this lets you run more games...one might think that you really can't afford games at all if you're really that cash tight. Besides, given that since I have more money to spend on computer gear and probably more to spend on games than such a poor person then the majority of the purchased games will be bought by me. Therefore they should listen to me when I say this or that is important in a game...and I bloodly well say that HD installation and no copy protection is what I want. Multi-tasking is nice but I generally take hour long breaks from programming so the reboot time isn't so bad for me (compared to the break time...I gotta run to the loo sometime). It is a big plus since downloading still takes a lot of time and Tetris can get real dull after while ;-). ^ ^> > Tell me ONE good arcade game that multitask on the amiga. ^> ^> Perahps if you define good. I happen to like MindWalker. ^ ^One point for you. Tell me another one ! ^ ^------------------------------------------ ^Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France ^ NT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- // | Nigel Tzeng - STX Inc - NASA/GSFC COBE Project \X/ | xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov | Amiga | Standard Disclaimer Applies: The opinions expressed are my own.
martijn@dnlunx.pttrnl.nl (Reinalda M.) (12/14/90)
I don't understand what you guys are fighting about. I use my Amiga for serious purposes most of the time. When I'm rendering a picture in Sculpt THEN I want to multitask and startup another program. When I'm writing a text in VizaWrite THEN I want to be able to startup DPAINT to draw some pictures and load them in Vizawrite. When I'm downloading a program with my modem I want to startup 3 CLI's and CLImate and fool around on my hardisk. For serious applications it's VERY important that the program uses the OS the way it should. If a program like Videoscape 3D would shut down the Workbench without being able to get it back I wouldn't use the program anymore just because of that. (now comes..) But when I'm playing STUNT CAR RACING I bloody don't care if the system can still multitask or not !!!! Come on, games are entertainment. I love games, couldn't live without them. And YES, I did have a C64, so what? Are we going to piss on the 64 now that the better computers are here ? The C64 was one hell of a machine for it's time and very capable of doing both serious applications AND games. Game programmers can do what they want as long as it results in mega-sound super fast graphics and die-hard action !!! In real life I'm a software/hardware man developing PC peripheral's etc. I bought my Amiga because I love graphics, sound, multitasking and games. That's only four things of the big list and there still no PC which can offer me the same thing. (as long as they hold on to their stupid MS-DOS it'll probably never happen) Phew, that was it, Adult comments are welcome but don't nag about what your 486 machine with windows 3.xx is capable of. See ya, Martijn Reinalda. *********************************************************************** ** Keyboard error or no keyboard present. Press any key to continue. ** ** IBM. ** *********************************************************************** ** E-mail : martijn@DNLUNX.UUCP ** ***********************************************************************
md41@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Marcus Dolengo) (12/16/90)
In article <9436@mirsa.inria.fr> buffa@mirsa.inria.fr writes: >In article <361.276631c6@vger.nsu.edu>, manes@vger.nsu.edu writes: >>In article <9424@mirsa.inria.fr>, buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: >>>In article <22110@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: >>>> colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: >>> >>> [Relatively good comments about OS Resource Usage from Mike..deleted] >>> >>> You compare Powermonger and Dpaint. Are you mad ??? I haven't got 5 megs of >>>memory, and I don't want disk access only because one crazy programmer wrote >>>his game so that people with a lot of memory won't have any disk access. >> >> Here, take this, its a tissue. Wipe the tears from your eyes. Maybe >> Santa will be good to you this year and get you a memory upgrade. nice atitude. As if we didnt have enough problems with messy dos users sneering at us with their 386 machines, now we are inferior because we dont have the $$ <yet> to upgrade, or we choose not to upgrade. great. Just what Amiga needs. How can you compare Dpaint to powermonger in the 1st place? How can ANYONE? they serve 2 different applications. >Good argumentation isn't it ? I haven't got money to spend for this. I just >want to have fun, and people like you think a game should be written like a >word processor. I hate computer freaks like you, people who masturbate >themselves in front of the screen of their sacred machine. Have you got >commodore shares ? > >>> Powermonger is nice in the fact that it didn't make any disk acess once the >>> games is started. Between a lot of disk access (overlays) and multitasking >>> (which I really don't care on my "normal" amiga) and people with a lot of >> >>You don't care about multitasking? I wonder why you bought a Amiga then. He doesnt care about multitasking, at least with games. Personally I, right now do not care about multitasking games. Perhaps when I get more megs and a HD for my 500P, then I will start caring. Until then.... >> Personally I detest programs that shut down the multitasking system when it >> is not necessary. There *are* programs (games) that *require* the dumping >> of the Amiga operating system for speed etc., however most games that I >> have seen do nothing all that special. > >You haven't tried many games apparently. Try X-OUT, R-TYPE, BATTLE SQUADRON, >SILKWORM, TURRICAN, LOTUS ESPRIT TURBO, and you'll understand quite easily why >these games don't multitask. > >>>memory happy, and no disk acess for everybody (more fun to play a game >>>without >>>disk access) and some Mike Farren's unhappy on the net, my choice is >>>evident. >>> And don't forget that in the world thare are 5/6 of Amiga 500 with 512k, >>> single drive. >> >> For those people who think I was wrong about the seperating the Amiga line. >> I offer you this gentleman for your review. He bought his amiga to play >> games, he doesn't appear to want (need?) AmigaDOS 2.0, as it might require >> more memory. Lets get Commodore to rename the A500 to Nintendo Plus >> before it is too late! :-) at least theres a :-) there >And so ? Why do you think most people buy an A 500 ? For playing games. In >europe the A500 is considered as the best micro computer for playing games. If >I really wanted to work, I wouldn't have a simple Amiga. I'm doing a Phd in >computer engineering, and spend all the day with my sparc station, compiling C >programs. Do you really thing that once at home, I'll make programs, type in a >report using a word processor ?????? NO ! I put a game in, push CTRL-A-A, and >just have fun. What's wrong with that. We are talking about games, don't >forget that. Most people I know are getting the amiga just because of its games, hence they are getting 500's. Some people are getting 2000's because of games but for some reason they want a bridge board for messy dos compatibility... etc. etc. ad nauseum. The 500 is also a cheap computer, for $500-600 you can get a cheap computer that connects to your tv. For people who want a computer but are on a budget, the 500 is a great choice, even if all they are doing is WP. Most college students here at columbia either own those bastardization Smith Corona WP's or use their Mac +'s or SE's or even PS/2's or other messy dos computers to write papers and play tetris or Risk. Im sure the typical home user would do much of the same with a 500 <or a 2000 if they sprung for that much money> >>>HEY MIKE ! What games did you write so that you can give such "good" >>>advices ? >> Whoa! Are you saying that Mike is not entitled to an opinion? From what >> platform do you spout your stuff from. Too me, you sound like a frustrated >> ex-Commodore 64 owner. I'm interested in the games Mike farren wrote myself. Perhaps Mr. Buffa merely wanted to compare Farrens games to others he has played. However this wasnt called for. And whats so bad about being an ex-64 user? i have a 128D <that hasnt been touched in 3 weeks :-) > >No. I had an Apple II. > >>> Did you write better games than Populous and Powermonger ? Using only the >>>Rom >>> code ? Well, why don't you write your own version of Powermonger, with >>> multitasking capabilities, overlays everywhere, HD installability, full >>> compatibility with every computer on the earth, better animation, better >>> graphics... Why aren't you on the cover of a magazine ? >> >> Please... > >Why please ? Mike farren always says the same thing on the net, when we try to >talk about games he doesn't say "what a great game, I had hundreds hours of >fun", he says "the game doesn't multitask, don't buy it". I'm just fed up !!! > > >>>I'm really fed-up with all these people who talk about programming technique >>> and never wrote a GOOD game. Mike, I tried once one of your game in a shop, >>> and I'm sorry but it was terrible. The animation was slow, slow... Ans so >>>long >>>to load with a single drive... I can not even remeber the name of this game. >> >> I think you can get your memory loss problem solved by seeing a doctor. >> It seems strange that you can remember an author and not a title of a >> program. > >Yes, because the game wasn't noticeable at all and Mike is. > >> I am fed up with people who don't want to push the manufactures to do what >> ought to be done, just because it does not effect them. I am fed up with >> the memory-whiners. I can't possibly believe that you said you tried one >> of Mike's games and found it to be lousy. What programs have you ever >> written for public consumption!? here's my $.02. Right now, I could care less if a game multitasks. I dont mind if a game isnt HD installable. If every game were, our HD's would be filled with games and then we'd all need expensive 500 meg HD's :-). When I do get a HD then I will care about games being HD installable but ill still boot them off of floppies if they arent. I'll survive. I have yet to see a game that multitasks so I cant say "Multitasking games suck/rule" but the games that I have seen that dont multitask have generally been really good. >> > Tell us what good games you wrote. We'll make a vote, and if it seems for >> > everybody that they are good games, then we will listen to you. >> >> Rude.. very rude. Agreed. >Rude, but normal. If Mike says simple thing like "Wow, in the level five of >X-out this is the way to beat the big monster:..." I'll listen to him. But >instead he says "Don't buy this game, the autghors are lazy programmers, it's >not well written, I know very well the system...." also agreed, but lets not attack mike farren personally. > >>>Bullfrog wrote Populous, wrote Powermonger, Flood. They are all good games. >>>Do >>>you think they never thought about writing the game only using the Rom code, >>>multitask, and so on... They are good programmers, they are not Dumb people. >>>They certainly tried this before and discovered that making a good scrolling >>>with the Scrollraster function is impossible, that multitasking games that >>>use >>>a lot of computing power are too slow on Amiga without accelerator cards. >>>You know mike, in 10k, you can put a lot of nice sound effects. I prefer >>>programmers who give me good sound effects (like in Powermonger) than >>>programmers who write a bad multitasking OS friendly game with poor sound >>>effects. >> >> Lets name this the "Nintendo mentality". Note this paragraph and allow >> it to sink in. This type of thinking will be the un-doing of the Amiga. Nintendo mentality is assuming the 500 is good only for playing games, and that all games must be Mario-like or shoot em up, etc. instead of some of the games Ive seen for the Amiga. >Forget the Amiga. The amiga 500 market is very much the same as the nintendo >market. The only difference is that the variety of games is much bigger on the >amiga. As Kent sayd in the very first review of Powermonger, 5/6 of the amiga >market for games is made of A500 owners with only 512k. Should they be killed, >or maybe should they all buy a memory expansion for you to be happy ? > >>>Tell me ONE good arcade game that multitask on the amiga. >> >> Perahps if you define good. I happen to like MindWalker. > >One point for you. Tell me another one ! > >------------------------------------------ >Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France > > Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr >Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis, > 2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE > Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65 >------------------------------------------ Now can we all either take this elsewhere since we've stopped talking about games or tell me is Powermonger available now? and where? How much? etc. back to the games. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o o | This Space For Rent // << md41@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu >> | Amerikkka's Most Wanted \X/ /> <\ | I made up my own mind, now I want a Tshirt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chi Omega Rho Fraternity. Because Co-Ed is better.
farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) (12/16/90)
buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: >Try X-OUT, R-TYPE, BATTLE SQUADRON, SILKWORM, TURRICAN, LOTUS ESPRIT TURBO, >and you'll understand quite easily why these games don't multitask. I've tried TURRICAN and LOTUS, and don't understand why they don't at all. Perhaps it's time for a challenge round here: Buffa, explain to us all, in correct technical terms, just why it is impossible for these games to multitask (or at least, to leave the system intact while they run). I'd really be interested to know, but, frankly, don't think you have the technical expertise to even begin to make such a statement. Better yet, grab a plane flight to the Bay Area when I talk about how to do all of this at a BADGE meeting (coming soon, don't know exactly which one yet), and I guarantee you'll get a chance to rebut my assertions. I'll even provide a free meal or two if you do. >Easy to write Powermonger ? Come on... Not easy, but not Amiga either. Remember, Bullfrog is an Atari ST house. >Why please ? Mike farren always says the same thing on the net, when we try to >talk about games he doesn't say "what a great game, I had hundreds hours of >fun", he says "the game doesn't multitask, don't buy it". I'm just fed up !!! Bullshit. I've had a lot of good things to say about a lot of games. You seem to be pretty selective in your reading, though. -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us
sbeagle@kennels.actrix.gen.nz (Sleeping Beagle) (12/16/90)
martijn@dnlunx.pttrnl.nl (Reinalda M.) writes: > In real life I'm a software/hardware man developing PC peripheral's etc. > I bought my Amiga because I love graphics, sound, multitasking and games. > That's only four things of the big list and there still no PC which can > offer me the same thing. (as long as they hold on to their stupid MS-DOS > it'll probably never happen) > > Phew, that was it, > Adult comments are welcome but don't nag about what your 486 machine with > windows 3.xx is capable of. > Why not? I'll tell you about my 286 running Windows 3.xx... Basically, it's a complete dog! I hate it. It's revolting. :-) Seriously, I agree with what you have to say about multitasking games - I like the few that do it for playing while doing something else, but for the real games like Stunt Car Racer, I am quite happy if they take over. Actually, what I really like is that on the Amiga 3000 (it's only a review machine damn it!) Stunt Car Racer doesn't multi-task - it just has a faster frame rate! Yeehar! P.S. How far have people got in Stunt Car Racer? I am quite proud that I have managed to get to Division 3 of the Super League... -- Official Signature for Sleeping Beagle (aka Thomas Farmer)! Mail : sbeagle@kennels.actrix.gen.nz Thomas.Farmer@bbs.actrix.gen.nz Disclaimers are for sick societies with too many lawyers.
buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) (12/17/90)
In article <22187@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: > buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: > >Try X-OUT, R-TYPE, BATTLE SQUADRON, SILKWORM, TURRICAN, LOTUS ESPRIT TURBO, > >and you'll understand quite easily why these games don't multitask. > > I've tried TURRICAN and LOTUS, and don't understand why they don't at all. > Perhaps it's time for a challenge round here: Buffa, explain to us all, > in correct technical terms, just why it is impossible for these games to > multitask (or at least, to leave the system intact while they run). I'd > really be interested to know, but, frankly, don't think you have the > technical expertise to even begin to make such a statement. Better yet, > grab a plane flight to the Bay Area when I talk about how to do all of this > at a BADGE meeting (coming soon, don't know exactly which one yet), and > I guarantee you'll get a chance to rebut my assertions. I'll even > provide a free meal or two if you do. Ok, I'm not a professional programmer, but wrote some little demos, studied the code of Menace when it was published, read programmer's interviews, and what I can say is that most of the arcade games I love have 60Hz animation. It's often written in the advertising pages, so it exists !!!!!!! Why 60 Hz ? because the main loop is executed at each VBL interrupt, while the video beam comes from the bottom of the screen to the top in order to draw a new screen. The main adventage is that the joystick will be read each 1/60 seconds, the screen will be redrawn at a given and regular period -> instantaneous reactions all the time, not depending on the number of objects on screen, on the other tasks running in the background. Of course, the game should be designed so that all the animation can be done in 1/60 second (or in 1/30 if it is done one time out of two). I wrote some demos (like the demos done by the european crackers, but I'm not one of them), and this technique works very well. And my demos, didn't nuke the system, restored all the memory... In some games, like in menace, only the scrolling the joystick reading was done in the VBL interrupt, the Bobs animnation was done in a background loop, but the programmer Dave Jones explained that it was only an error because he didn't mastered the amiga very well at this time. The bitmap brothers who did ST ports until now (And their ST ports were excellent games: XENON 1 and 2, SPEEDBALL), promised a 60 HZ animation for SPEEDBALL 2, their first game with a pecific amiga version. ------------------------------------------ Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis, 2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65 ------------------------------------------