xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (12/05/90)
At the First Amiga Users' Group meeting last night, a representative from
Electronic Arts demonstrated Powermonger for the club Tuesday night. First
the bad news: the game is not hard drive installable, and won't multitask.
Paraphrasing:
They do these user surveys, you know? And the answer they get
back from all these guys in Europe is "I'm going to add memory
to my A500 and bring it up to an awesome one meg Real Soon Now."
And that's 5/6ths of the game market, A500's with 512K of memory.
To put a game like this in that box, you haven't got any choice;
you have to nuke the operating system and take over the machine.
Make it HD installable or multitasking, and it won't run in 512K,
and you just threw away 5/6ths of the Amiga market. It was the
great sales response in Europe that made it possible to bring
Populous out in the states, and the same holds true for Powermonger.
Sigh. You can't argue very hard with that logic. They have to pay the
bills.
Next the quasi-good news: you can back up the disks, though you have to
use a commercial disk copier: without the OS, they chose a disk format
of their own, and Workbench's DiskCopy chokes and dies on it. Anyway,
besides my having to buy pirating software to back up my disk
legitimately, at least they've had the sense to go to manual-oriented
copy protection schemes.
OK, maybe some _real_ good news. ;-) The game looks great! It starts out
with an introduction sequence of maybe half a dozen, animated, full
screen pictures with castles, armies, couriers, a mean looking warlord,
great music, some text to tell you what's going on, etc. Then you drop
into a completely Amiga style game, with mouse, menus, vaguely the same
screen layout as Populous, only prettier: a local map on a work surface,
with control gadgets built into the surface, an overview map up in one
corner, various other stuff. The work surface is a "table", and behind
it stand your warlords, planning their strategy and controlling their
armies.
To start playing, you pull up this _huge_, scrolling, multiscreen map of
the world. The worlds of Populace have become territories in one world
for Powermonger. To win the game, you have, not to conquer the whole
world, but to island hop from upper left to lower right along any
orthogonal stepping path you choose. (Doesn't say you _can't_ arrange
your path to nail every single territory, just that you don't have to.)
You can save games, it looked like maybe nine possible save files from
the back of the room, so you probably need a blank floppy.
You get no choice in where you start, but you have the choice to redraw
it with a random territory button if you don't like what you see. As
you conquer territories, they are marked with a dagger driven through
them; neat bloodthirsty touch!
Your game motivating scenario is that you and your small battle force
have been driven out of your homeland and put ashore on this small
island to conquer or perish.
Like Populous, the game has people off in various parts of the current
territory "doing their own thing". These people have an incredibly
rich level of detail. Each person has a trade, a name, an alliegance,
possibly a carried weapon, a current health, and at least half a dozen
other stats I didn't pick up from the back of the room. In addition,
the game is _rife_ with livestock, bleating, baaing, mooing, crowing,
whatever, and you can click on even the livestock and get some stats.
The land is covered with villages, and if it is a farming village, then
it is surrounded by fields, and the farmers are in constant circulation
between the fields and houses. Villages have "manufacturies", too, and
if you conquer a village, you can conscript some and put others to work
"inventing" things, and keep others at work in the fields. Did I mention
that your army needs food?
If it is a fishing village, (near the water of course), then the
fisherfolk come out of their houses, walk down to the water, enter their
coracles, and go out to catch fish. If it is a mining village, then
folks are working on a mine, and, since the map is a 3D cross-section of
the world, like Populous, if you move to the right spot you can watch
the mine's progress underground. If there are some woodcutters, then
they go to the nearest forest and cut trees, and we watched them flush a
flock of birds up out of the woods.
The game has equal opportunity killing and dying; characters of all
types may be male or female in stats and names; I wasn't close enough to
judge appearances.
Unlike Populous, your goal is not to terraform the land but to conquer
its towns and villages. You get not one computer opponent, but up to
three, or you can modem out to a friend (2400 baud is plenty fast) and
the two of you compete against each other and compete with zero to two
computer opponents' armies.
The difference is striking; you work from camps or settlements, and when
you decide to attack a village, your army pours out of its base, and
marches to the target settlement. Your troops carry close in weapons
like swords and pikes, or at-a-distance weapons like bows, and your hand
weapon troops close the enemy, while the remote weapon troops stand back
and pick them off from afar.
Did I mention you march slower if it's raining or snowing?
One of the controls you have is for the aggression level; you can set it
to "win, but don't hurt anybody" for those easy first conquests; I guess
you can set it to "take no prisoners" further on in the game.
If you lunch one of the autochthons, or more likely vice versa, up floats
a little ghost, and if you select it before it gets away, you'll learn
that so and so "died for the glory of Xland".
It's no wonder you march slower in rain or snow; the designers believe in
whole gales and blizzards; it can get hard to find your armies.
If you conquer a town with a warlord of its own, there is a chance you
can win his loyalty. With two warlords watching over the playing table,
you can split your army, and send commands by carrier pigeon from one to
the other. Of course, if the starving hostiles shoot your pigeon down
and eat it, the message doesn't get delivered, and your subordinate
carries on under the old orders. This can probably get very
inconvenient. I think I heard that you can have up to half a dozen
warlords at once.
You start with a few weapons, but you have to put conquered towns to work
making more. Don't put everyone in the factory, though, or the crops will
fail and they and you will starve. Same problem if you conscript too many
people; things stop working with no workers.
If you're having trouble following the action because the terraine blocks
your view, don't despair; the local map pans and zooms and rotates in real
time. We zoomed in on an idle army, and they were encamped in a circle
around a commander who was sitting by a crackling fire.
Did I mention your warlord grunts "yes" when you give him an order? Did
I mention the clash of battle, the screams of the dying, the whistle of
the wind as winter approaches?
This game is a rich visual, audible, and tactical experience. Minus the
few problems noted at the top, and granting that I left out 90% of the
stuff I saw, this game is a winner that got a great round of applause
after the presentation, and a few cheers during, especially when the
presenter casually zoomed and rotated the map in one smooth motion to
follow an army around a mountain.
I have no idea at all how they got this all in one little box. It was
demoed on an A1000, and the presenter said it runs on an A500, an A2000,
an A2500, a 68030 accelerator board system, and an A3000, and "probably
an A5000 when they make one of those".
The good points far outweigh the bad points. We only watched a couple
of territories get conquered, but the human interface, even with the
same set of gadgets, seems much smoother than for Populous; it doesn't
look so easy for the computer to overwhelm you by attacking everywhere
at once. Of course, no game should be too easy, and we were conquering
kindergarden-land! ;-)
Additionally, there is a hook in the game, supported by a gadget in a
requestor, to incorporate a data disk, although none is available now,
so probably there will be a "Promised Lands" extension for this game,
too.
Even this many words just can't convey the overwhelming amount of detail
and programming skill shown in this game. It is due out in the states
in a week, apparently is already available in Europe. If your letter
to St. Nick isn't in the mail yet, this is a likely entry.
I waaaant one! ;-) This review ought to sell a few thousand; think
they'd think to send me a free copy? Ha!
Oh, yeah, I got to stand up for a few minutes and describe the c.s.a
reorganization to a room half of whom had never heard of USENet, and
were bored out of their minds between the few laughs I managed to
acquire. They raffled off a donated copy of Amigavision, and two games
(Bandit Kings of Ancient China and Ghengis Kahn, from Koei) demoed by
another presenter, sold FAUG disks, another person demoed Perfect Sound
(good enough that I bought one at the meeting, 25% off list). For SF-Bay
area locals, checking out FAUG might be a really good idea; dues $35 per
year, and the action packed meeting was in a Hyatt conference room!
/// It's Amiga
/// for me: why
Kent, the man from xanth. \\\/// settle for
<xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> \XX/ anything less?
--
Convener, ongoing comp.sys.amiga grand reorganization.keithh@bwdls40.bnr.ca (Keith Hanlan) (12/06/90)
In article <1990Dec5.110344.6364@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
a very detailed and favourable review of PowerMonger. He cautions
that it is not HD-installable although it is possible to back the
game up.
Kent, my question is this: Does the game take advantage of extra memory
if available? If it does, I'll buy it. If it doesn't, I won't. Caching
data files takes maybe 1000 bytes of code - there is no excuse for
not providing it.
Generally, how much does the game gronk the floppy disk?
Thanks for the effort you put into the review.
Keith Hanlan keithh@bnr.ca Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada 613-765-4645xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (12/06/90)
keithh@atreus.bnr.ca (Keith Hanlan) writes: > xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > a very detailed and favourable review of PowerMonger. He cautions > that it is not HD-installable although it is possible to back the > game up. > Kent, my question is this: Does the game take advantage of extra memory > if available? If it does, I'll buy it. If it doesn't, I won't. Caching > data files takes maybe 1000 bytes of code - there is no excuse for > not providing it. My bet is no, on an 85% or so confidence level, but I'd suggest calling the company for valid info. My reasoning is that 1) they nuked the OS, so they'd be spending more than 1Kbyte on supporting a ram: based alternate file structure, and 2) the game, running on an A1000, was obviously pushing the 68000 really hard; I'd be surprised if they had taken the little extra time for a two way test to see where files should be found. I could be wrong on this whole thing, though. And, of course, since the OS is gone, you can't use FACC II or addbuffers to make things work better. I brought my system memory up to 9 megs, so I share your frustration with having that ignored and the floppy drive kept warm. Still, if you have friends to whom you'd like to really show off a dazzling Amiga application, I'd go for buying the game and live with the realization that stuff with moving parts wears out and is consumable, not a permanent part of your system. A letter to EA conveying your concern would not be at all out of place. I get the feeling, for all the bitching that all of us do here about games, that sending a well composed, polite letter laying out the terms under which you will be willing to buy their games to various game manufacturers will do 100 times as much good. Modulo the occasional kid who bought his/her Amiga as a Nintendo clone, you're preaching to the choir here. I also get the feeling that no one ever writes to these people. I know I haven't, except for an occasional margin note on a warranty card. > Generally, how much does the game gronk the floppy disk? I was 20 rows of chairs back -- no idea. We watched the game via FAUG's projection TV, and listened to the presenter over microphones. This is a _big_ users group. > Thanks for the effort you put into the review. I enjoyed doing it. >Keith Hanlan keithh@bnr.ca Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada 613-765-4645 Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
rouaix@margaux.inria.fr (Francois Rouaix) (12/06/90)
Well, PowerMonger hit the shelves yesterday in France. So I spent a good amount of last night playing it ;-) Rough comments are: - as said by Kent, the simulation is really amazing. This game really uses the sound to convey information. You have to listen to the noise to figure out if you're doing right or not. So much for the good points, you'll find them in the previous posting. On the other hand, I was rather deceived by the graphics. There are some nice things, such as full 3D rotation of the detailed map, but I find the display to be less readable than Populous's one. There are many little objects (soldiers, farmers, sheeps, trees, objets), and there are difficult to distinguish. On the global map (maps all the word), the objects of the game are represented by points (one pixel) of different colors. I find it difficult to tell a yellow point among white points !. - on the game itself: if you found Populous hard to play, then you will have a hard time with PowerMonger. The game *is* complex, and will require much experiment to find out the good strategy. It took me about 10 minutes for the first level, but almost 4 hours for the second... and there are 195 of them. The results of the commands (orders to your captains) are much less intuitive than expected. I think there are many things to discover in the game. A first example: to get food for your army, the natural thing to do is to kill a sheep. However, in spring, you will notice that there are flocks of birds in the woods. If you give the order to attack the birds, all your soldiers will begin to chase the birds around. This is amazing ! - copy protection: the game is protected BOTH with special disk format AND look-in-the-manual. The manual protection is *tedious*. I fudged the first time, and was offered only ONE chance to get the good answer. It seems that you have to *reboot* of you don't want to stay in demo-mode. - save game: the game nukes the system, to the point that if you have a second floppy drive, you HAVE to leave a disk in it to be able to save a game to df0:. This is mentionned in the docs, although quite unbelievable ! - documentation: very good (and translated to french in my case). - works in NTSC and PAL. The display is nicely centered on the screen. To conclude: although I mentionned mostly bad points in this posting, PowerMonger appears to be one of the best simulation games in its kind. Don't hesitate ! It's cheap as well (at the current FF/US$ exchange rate for SOFTWARE, it would be around 30$). --Francois -- *- Francois Rouaix // We are all prisoners here, * *- rouaix@inria.inria.fr \X/ of our own device * *- SYSOP of Sgt. Flam's Lonely Amigas Club. (33) (1) 39-55-84-59 (Videotex) * Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are my own, not those of my employer.
stoller@cbmcel.UUCP (Martin S. Stoller) (12/07/90)
In article <5045@bwdls58.UUCP> keithh@atreus.bnr.ca (Keith Hanlan) writes: >In article <1990Dec5.110344.6364@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > a very detailed and favourable review of PowerMonger. He cautions > that it is not HD-installable although it is possible to back the > game up. > Kent, my question is this: Does the game take advantage of extra memory > if available? If it does, I'll buy it. If it doesn't, I won't. Caching > data files takes maybe 1000 bytes of code - there is no excuse for > not providing it. Absoulutely NO excuse. In fact, I start to wonder if Game Programmers really know how to program. There is such a thing as overlays, which every half decent Linker has. And checking to see what memory is available is easily enough done. Even in Low Level Languages, like C and Assembler. > Generally, how much does the game gronk the floppy disk? Hm... Good question. I've seen games (in stores, and at friends) which make the Floppy drive sound like King Kong imitating a broken car... >Thanks for the effort you put into the review. >Keith Hanlan keithh@bnr.ca Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada 613-765-4645 I'll buy that game, even if it does not support extra mem. I've seen the reviews, and I trust Kent's judgement. And after all, ECA was once the leading Producer of Software on the AMIGA... Maybe they'll be again, soon. (I saw their add in an english (british) computer paper. They are looking for Assembler Programmers. Hm... I prefer C, probably 'cause I am a lousy typer...) -- Regards, UUCP: [{(uunet|pyramid|rutgers)!cbmvax}!cbmehq!cbmcel!stoller
stefanb@balu.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Stefan Becker) (12/07/90)
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >Next the quasi-good news: you can back up the disks, though you have to >use a commercial disk copier: without the OS, they chose a disk format >of their own, and Workbench's DiskCopy chokes and dies on it. Anyway, Nope. You can use TurboBackup to make a copy. >I have no idea at all how they got this all in one little box. It was >demoed on an A1000, and the presenter said it runs on an A500, an A2000, >an A2500, a 68030 accelerator board system, and an A3000, and "probably >an A5000 when they make one of those". But not (yet) on an A3000 with 2.02 :-( Stefan -- Mail : Stefan Becker, Holsteinstrasse 9, D-5100 Aachen /// Only Phone : +49-241-505705 FIDO: 2:242/7.6 Germany /// Amiga makes Domain: stefanb@informatik.rwth-aachen.de \\\/// it possible.. Bang : ..mcvax!unido!rwthinf!stefanb \XX/ -->A3000/25<--
farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) (12/07/90)
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > And that's 5/6ths of the game market, A500's with 512K of memory. > To put a game like this in that box, you haven't got any choice; > you have to nuke the operating system and take over the machine. > Make it HD installable or multitasking, and it won't run in 512K, > and you just threw away 5/6ths of the Amiga market. >Sigh. You can't argue very hard with that logic. They have to pay the >bills. *I* can argue with that logic very easily: - the unrecoverable use of system resources by the full system is minimal, in comparison with the resources available. Almost all of the system's memory, for example, can be reclaimed by the application, if needed. - it is easy to determine if you are running on a 512K machine. If so, and if, in spite of the previous, you still need more resources than are available to you, you can selectively take over - in other words, only the 512K 500s would be taken over, the higher level machines would be left alone. - it is possible to actually save resources by NOT taking over the machine. For example, if you use the standard I/O resources or graphics resources supplied by the OS, you are using ROM code - not taking up valuable RAM with redundant routines. - in extremis, it is always possible to split a program such that only those portions of it actually in use are resident in memory at any given time. Careful design will result in a program which runs nearly as efficiently as one which remains fully in memory. In the case of Populous, for example, there is no reason not to load the "control panel" routines at the time they are used - the delay will be negligible, and game play will be affected not at all. My translation of EA's statement would go more like this: "They were too lazy to do it right, and we let them get away with it, 'cause we don't particularly care." -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us
brian@sky.COM (Brian Pelletier) (12/07/90)
In article <1990Dec6.035355.23149@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: [Lots of details on how Powermonger nukes the OS] >A letter to EA conveying your concern would not be at all out of place. >I get the feeling, for all the bitching that all of us do here about >games, that sending a well composed, polite letter laying out the terms >under which you will be willing to buy their games to various game >manufacturers will do 100 times as much good. Modulo the occasional kid >who bought his/her Amiga as a Nintendo clone, you're preaching to the >choir here. > Amen! :-) I heartily agree that most of us will fire off a letter to a software company only if we are extremely unhappy/pleased with a particular product. I'm going to try to be a lot more aggressive in this regard from now on. Hell, I've shelled out enough bucks for games and the like; why shouldn't I let the companies know what I like/dislike about them? Issues like copy protection , HD installability, and platform compatibility are important to me, and should be important to anyone (with the exception of the Nintendo clone mentality folks). A few well-written letters will go a long way. [Comment about not sending letters to software companies] Guilty as charged. I have at least two letters to write this weekend, and could probably fire off a half-dozen with a little patience. Not all of these will voice complaints either; Interplay will probably get a nice letter from me about Dragon Wars. >Kent, the man from xanth. ><xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> Brian Pelletier, Hardware guy | Disclaimer: These are MY opinions, not SKY's. Sky Computer Chelmsford, MA | Amiga! UUCP: pelletier@grove.uucp (home) UUCP: brian@sky.com (work) | Plink: TACK
spierce@pnet01.cts.com (Stuart Pierce) (12/08/90)
I hope Powermonger is more compatible with my A2500 than Populous. Now that I've added an A2620, I can barely keep Populous from crashing in EITHER 68000 or 68020 mode. This is the only game I own (out of more than 100) that now fails to work in 68000 mode. Stuart Pierce
robocop@unlisys.in-berlin.de (Thorsten Ebers) (12/10/90)
rouaix@margaux.inria.fr (Francois Rouaix) writes: >Well, PowerMonger hit the shelves yesterday in France. >So I spent a good amount of last night playing it ;-) I have it since 4th december here in Berlin Germany. I have paid 85 DM.(54$ change rate) I love the game. >many little objects (soldiers, farmers, sheeps, trees, objets), and >there are difficult to distinguish. On the global map (maps all the >word), the objects of the game are represented by points (one pixel) >of different colors. I find it difficult to tell a yellow point among >white points !. really true.the manual describes yellow dots as a city or some simular,but clicking on it leaves you on plain land or something else. > - on the game itself: if you found Populous hard to play, then >you will have a hard time with PowerMonger. The game *is* complex, and >will require much experiment to find out the good strategy. It took me >about 10 minutes for the first level, but almost 4 hours for the >second... and there are 195 of them. The results of the commands I have solved the 4th landscape on the first row. Still trieing to get to the second row but no chance yet. >(orders to your captains) are much less intuitive than expected. >I think there are many things to discover in the game. A first hard to get some birds killed. > - copy protection: the game is protected BOTH with special >disk format AND look-in-the-manual. The manual protection is >*tedious*. I fudged the first time, and was offered only ONE >chance to get the good answer. It seems that you have to >*reboot* of you don't want to stay in demo-mode. I can make a backup with turbobackup.no problems. >PowerMonger appears to be one of the best simulation games in its >kind. Don't hesitate ! It's cheap as well (at the current FF/US$ >exchange rate for SOFTWARE, it would be around 30$). it should work also on turboborads but after a short time of playing my Amiga gurus.dont know why. >--Francois >-- >*- Francois Rouaix // We are all prisoners here, * >*- rouaix@inria.inria.fr \X/ of our own device * >*- SYSOP of Sgt. Flam's Lonely Amigas Club. (33) (1) 39-55-84-59 (Videotex) * >Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are my own, not those of my employer. Thorsten
colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) (12/10/90)
In article <1787@seti.inria.fr>, rouaix@margaux.inria.fr (Francois Rouaix) writes: > Well, PowerMonger hit the shelves yesterday in France. > So I spent a good amount of last night playing it ;-) Same for me! (What? already 3 in the morning! :-)) First: This game is AMAZING... be prepared to spend much more time than populous, however, you don't see time passing while playing, there is always something going on. There don't seem to be any disk access during game, apart for saving games. (But since I have 3Megs on my 500, It may use this memory as a ram disk) Did somebody run it on a 512K machine, and if so, are there disk accesses during game? Some (totally minor) "bad" points: - landscape get often a bit too high on the screen when zooming in mountains - seeing things on global map is more difficult than in populous > - copy protection: the game is protected BOTH with special > disk format AND look-in-the-manual. The manual protection is > *tedious*. Pcopy backups it without problem (Fish disk #402) or turbobackup. The manual protection is *nice*, because they tell you at what pages you must look, so you don't have to browse the entire manual. I think being able to backup my copy is a VERY GOOD THING, even if for that I must browse in the manual, and this only at the start of the game. Be fair to Bullfrog, most manual-protected software are more annoying than this one! Besides, the floppy disk is well organized (by B.A.D.?), so loading is very fast. > - save game: the game nukes the system, to the point that if > you have a second floppy drive, you HAVE to leave a disk in it to be > able to save a game to df0:. This is mentionned in the docs, although > quite unbelievable ! As long as it is documented, it's a "feature" :-) too bad it doesn't use it for save games, though... > - works in NTSC and PAL. The display is nicely centered on the > screen. works in NTSC with palboot on my PAL screen for full display. > PowerMonger appears to be one of the best simulation games in its > kind. Don't hesitate ! Should I say more? > It's cheap as well It is in fact one of the cheapest games for the amy!!! PS: Just PLEASE stop bashing about non-use of OS resources. I think that by making it fast loading, without disk access during playing, and with no disk-based protection, Bullfrog is really trying to make life easier on the player, so I feel it a bit unfair to criticize them, especially from people who didn't try it!!! For instance, Marc Farren, instead of speaking of overlays, etc, did you realize there is no disk accesses during game? -- Colas Nahaboo, Bull Research France -- Koala Project -- GWM X11 Window Manager Internet: colas@mirsa.inria.fr, Phone: (33) 93.65.77.70, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 66 INRIA Sophia, 2004, rte des Lucioles, B.P.109 - 06561 Valbonne Cedex, FRANCE
pyppad@gdr.bath.ac.uk (P A Dale) (12/10/90)
> >> Generally, how much does the game gronk the floppy disk? > >I was 20 rows of chairs back -- no idea. We watched the game via FAUG's >projection TV, and listened to the presenter over microphones. This is >a _big_ users group. Let me put your fears aside on the disk crunching. It does grind during saving and loading but during gametime you have no worries at all. Everything is quiet an wonderful :-) The good thing is you can backup with a commercial copier and the manual copy protection isn't going to interrupt things (Awesome screws my diskdrive :-(, Powermonger doesn't :-) I think the starting animation is not too hot. Good backdrops but lousy animation. Musics o.k. though. As for the game, it promises a hell of a lot. I've played the first few islands and enjoyed it tremendously. Check out catapults when you invent them ! Don't go crazy on a village with one of these or there won't be much left (2 swords on agression only :-) The cannons make one huge bang when they go off. Kent didn't mention the sound volume of on map activity depends on the zoom factor. If you watch up close things are much louder (useful when you're out hunting sheep in winter and there's a blizzard :-) I found the manual adequate but not very helpful. There is an included note mentioning, not only data disks, but a book on the hidden depths of Powermonger. The manual describes the icon's function but doesn't tell you how to use them (if you get what I mean :-). Some errors in labelling occur on the overview display in the manual. Some of the higher level design doesn't seem tremendous. The way you must island hop with no continuity is hard to justify (you do get a few extra men but have to leave your cannons behind (blub) :-(. It is understandable in terms of scale. You could quickly have unmanageable armies. Still, a minor gripe. Some icons are much too small, people without monitors will have problems (a friend of mine does, I've seen it too and definition is a problem). This is mainly on the overview map where some features are a mere pixel (e.g. a workshop in a village is a yellow dot). > >> Thanks for the effort you put into the review. > >I enjoyed doing it. I enjoyed reading it and I've got the Game! Hope your letter gets to the Pole in time. > >>Keith Hanlan keithh@bnr.ca Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada 613-765-4645 > >Kent, the man from xanth. ><xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> Enquiries welcome :-) Paul Dale pyppad@uk.ac.bath or to get me when I'm working :-) ccspad@uk.ac.bath
farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) (12/11/90)
colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: >PS: Just PLEASE stop bashing about non-use of OS resources. I think that by >making it fast loading, without disk access during playing, and with no >disk-based protection, Bullfrog is really trying to make life easier on the >player, so I feel it a bit unfair to criticize them, especially from people >who didn't try it!!! For instance, Marc Farren, instead of speaking of >overlays, etc, did you realize there is no disk accesses during game? That's Mike, not Marc :-) So what? There's also no multitasking, and no hard drive. I enjoy a good game as much as anyone, and will likely buy this one (I really liked Populous), but that doesn't change the fact that it's just sloppy. No disk accesses? What the hell difference do disk accesses make, if you can limit them to the times when there's going to be a break in the game action anyway? I presume that there are things like setup screens, option screens, and the like, just like in Populous - so what do you lose by having those loaded only when needed, since they are going to cause a break in the action anyway? And with the extra memory you've just gotten as a gift, you can give me back my system, which is worth a few seconds delay any time, as far as I'm concerned. Hell, at the very least they could check to see if the system's already up, and run with overlays if they need to, and otherwise take over everything. Even DPaint gives you the option of overlays or not. But no - Bullfrog has to decide FOR me what's right and proper. Not to mention the fact that they're going to be sitting there, letting most of MY memory go to waste, idling away its time, and probably getting into trouble :-) -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us
amhartma@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Andy Hartman - AmigaMan) (12/12/90)
Just wanted everyone to know that Computability has the game in stock. I ordered it yesterday and they said they would have it to me by Christmas. I'm really looking forward to it. Cost: 31.95 for the game and 4.00 for shipping. BTW, no flames/discussions about the reliability of Computability please. AMH * Andy Hartman | I'd deny half of this crap anyway!| "Somedays, you just * Indiana University | amhartma@silver.ucs.indiana.edu | can't get rid of a * // Amiga Man | AMHARTMA@rose.ucs.indiana.edu | bomb!" * \X/ At Large! | or just "Hey putz!" | - Batman (original)
levin@world.std.com (Levin F Magruder) (12/12/90)
Is powermonger available on other PCs, or only amiga? Populous came out on 8088s, didn't it? If only available on amiga, perhaps the discussion of what a great game this is should be moved/copied to rec.games.misc, so all those people with misc. computers will know what they are "miscing."
pashdown@javelin.es.com (Pete Ashdown) (12/12/90)
levin@world.std.com (Levin F Magruder) writes: >Is powermonger available on other PCs, or only amiga? Populous >came out on 8088s, didn't it? Populous came out for the Amiga/ST first. I'd imagine that Powermonger will be out sooner or later for the PC, but only if you have a super-duper 33mhz 386 with VGA and SoundBlaster! >If only available on amiga, perhaps the discussion of what a great >game this is should be moved/copied to rec.games.misc, so all those >people with misc. computers will know what they are "miscing." Why? Just read c.s.a.g to see what you are missing. -- "While you are here, your wives and girlfriends are dating handsome American movie and TV stars. Stars like Tom Selleck, Bruce Willis, and Bart Simpson." -- Baghdad Betty Pete Ashdown pashdown%javelin@dsd.es.com ...dsd.es.com!javelin!pashdown
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) (12/12/90)
Powermonger will be available for other platforms in the near future if it isn't already so. Populous can even been found on the Sega Genesis (which does a good job of it despite the no save feature. I believe it uses a form of password entry) so I haven't any doubts that Powermonger won't be far behind on the other machines... SIMEARTH is out for the Mac and IBMs!!! I got to play it at a friends house and all I can say is I WANT MY AMIGA VERSION! Cool. Totally Cool. SimCity on the IBM also has two new graphics disks I wouldn't mind seeing on the Amiga. Same game, just allows you to have different look to it. Ever want to build a city on the moon? -Moriland -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ "As if things weren't bad enough already...."| Founder of: "Young Evil Please excuse my ramblings as they come from | Mutants For A Better Tommorow. a diseased mind. -Moriland | hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu
buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) (12/12/90)
In article <22110@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: > colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: > >PS: Just PLEASE stop bashing about non-use of OS resources. I think that by > >making it fast loading, without disk access during playing, and with no > >disk-based protection, Bullfrog is really trying to make life easier on the > >player, so I feel it a bit unfair to criticize them, especially from people > >who didn't try it!!! For instance, Marc Farren, instead of speaking of > >overlays, etc, did you realize there is no disk accesses during game? > > That's Mike, not Marc :-) > > So what? There's also no multitasking, and no hard drive. Hard drive compatibility would have been great, but multitasking makes only bad games when animation speed is essential. I enjoy a good > game as much as anyone, and will likely buy this one (I really liked Populous), > but that doesn't change the fact that it's just sloppy. No disk accesses? > What the hell difference do disk accesses make, if you can limit them to > the times when there's going to be a break in the game action anyway? I > presume that there are things like setup screens, option screens, and the > like, just like in Populous - so what do you lose by having those loaded > only when needed, since they are going to cause a break in the action > anyway? And with the extra memory you've just gotten as a gift, you can > give me back my system, which is worth a few seconds delay any time, as > far as I'm concerned. True. > Hell, at the very least they could check to see if the system's already > up, and run with overlays if they need to, and otherwise take over everything. > Even DPaint gives you the option of overlays or not. But no - Bullfrog has > to decide FOR me what's right and proper. Not to mention the fact that > they're going to be sitting there, letting most of MY memory go to waste, > idling away its time, and probably getting into trouble :-) > > -- > Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us You compare Powermonger and Dpaint. Are you mad ??? I haven't got 5 megs of memory, and I don't want disk access only because one crazy programmer wrote his game so that people with a lot of memory won't have any disk access. Powermonger is nice in the fact that it didn't make any disk acess once the games is started. Between a lot of disk access (overlays) and multitasking (which I really don't care on my "normal" amiga) and people with a lot of memory happy, and no disk acess for everybody (more fun to play a game without disk access) and some Mike Farren's unhappy on the net, my choice is evident. And don't forget that in the world thare are 5/6 of Amiga 500 with 512k, single drive. HEY MIKE ! What games did you write so that you can give such "good" advices ? Did you write better games than Populous and Powermonger ? Using only the Rom code ? Well, why don't you write your own version of Powermonger, with multitasking capabilities, overlays everywhere, HD installability, full compatibility with every computer on the earth, better animation, better graphics... Why aren't you on the cover of a magazine ? I'm really fed-up with all these people who talk about programming techniques and never wrote a GOOD game. Mike, I tried once one of your game in a shop, and I'm sorry but it was terrible. The animation was slow, slow... Ans so long to load with a single drive... I can not even remeber the name of this game. Tell us what good games you wrote. We'll make a vote, and if it seems for everybody that they are good games, then we will listen to you. Bullfrog wrote Populous, wrote Powermonger, Flood. They are all good games. Do you think they never thought about writing the game only using the Rom code, multitask, and so on... They are good programmers, they are not Dumb people. They certainly tried this before and discovered that making a good scrolling with the Scrollraster function is impossible, that multitasking games that use a lot of computing power are too slow on Amiga without accelerator cards. You know mike, in 10k, you can put a lot of nice sound effects. I prefer programmers who give me good sound effects (like in Powermonger) than programmers who write a bad multitasking OS friendly game with poor sound effects. Tell me ONE good arcade game that multitask on the amiga. And don't forget, I want to know the games you wrote. -- ------------------------------------------ Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis, 2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65 ------------------------------------------
colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) (12/12/90)
In article <22110@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: > That's Mike, not Marc :-) oops... Sorry! > So what? There's also no multitasking, and no hard drive. Let me try another explanation for nuking the OS. I am new to the amiga world, but multitasking on the amiga with many processes accessing the drives seems to me an error-prone situation... By doing this I often get corrupted I/O which I dont get by doing things sequentially. (*) No, I'm not saying that AmigaDos is at fault, it may be one of the 10 resident drivers/utilities I use which is at fault, but this stresses my point: If you want PowerMonger to multitask, it is because you are a power user, and thus are using tons of little taks whose interaction may lead to problems, making you say "PM doesn't works", but the problem may be in your super-hyper-duper screen saver... So they perhaps want to avoid having bad reputation because of other people's fault... Or they have discovered a bug in the OS preventing safe multitasking for their purposes. (*) As an example: Seems to me that using two concurrent processes to read MSDOS disks via MSH yields you corrupted buffer I/Os, but I'm not sure -- Colas Nahaboo, Bull Research France -- Koala Project -- GWM X11 Window Manager Internet: colas@mirsa.inria.fr, Phone: (33) 93.65.77.70, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 66 INRIA Sophia, 2004, rte des Lucioles, B.P.109 - 06561 Valbonne Cedex, FRANCE
manes@vger.nsu.edu (12/13/90)
In article <1990Dec12.114250@avahi.inria.fr>, colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: > In article <22110@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: >> That's Mike, not Marc :-) > > oops... Sorry! > >> So what? There's also no multitasking, and no hard drive. > > Let me try another explanation for nuking the OS. I am new to the amiga world, > but multitasking on the amiga with many processes accessing the drives seems > to me an error-prone situation... By doing this I often get corrupted I/O > which I dont get by doing things sequentially. (*) Really? Corrupted I/O? Funny I have been using Amiga's since 1985 and have had only one occurance under 1.1 that resulted in a disk corrupt requestor. Can you give us an example where this happens and with what programs? > > No, I'm not saying that AmigaDos is at fault, it may be one of the 10 resident > drivers/utilities I use which is at fault, but this stresses my point: If you > want PowerMonger to multitask, it is because you are a power user, and thus > are using tons of little taks whose interaction may lead to problems, making > you say "PM doesn't works", but the problem may be in your super-hyper-duper > screen saver... All true here. However that does not mean throw the baby out with the bath water. I am always cautious about any program that attempts to modify the way AmigaDOS operates (read my rantings on ARP). However no one is causing (forcing?) you to use utilities that 'play' with Intuition to make it do something it was not designed to do. I run with a near vanilla Amiga and have had next to zero problems multitasking. I would never encourage anyone to not write a program that does not multitask. > > So they perhaps want to avoid having bad reputation because of other people's > fault... Or they have discovered a bug in the OS preventing safe multitasking > for their purposes. No, they are probably thinking it would be easier for them to write the code if they ignore coding standards and the Amiga operating system. It has nothing to do with support. I doubt that most game writers would be familiar enough with the Amiga Operating System to know a bug or not. However that is just an opinion. > > (*) As an example: Seems to me that using two concurrent processes to read > MSDOS disks via MSH yields you corrupted buffer I/Os, but I'm not sure > MSH is PD. CrossDOS does not have this problem. > -- > Colas Nahaboo, Bull Research France -- Koala Project -- GWM X11 Window Manager > Internet: colas@mirsa.inria.fr, Phone: (33) 93.65.77.70, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 66 > INRIA Sophia, 2004, rte des Lucioles, B.P.109 - 06561 Valbonne Cedex, FRANCE -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) (12/13/90)
In article <9424@mirsa.inria.fr> buffa@mirsa.inria.fr writes: >Tell me ONE good arcade game that multitask on the amiga. Mindwalker. Prospector in the Mazes of Xor. BallyIII. Of course, your definition of "good" may be different from mine. For me, an arcade game is "good" if it is fun and addicting. Another thing: there is a difference between ignoring the OS and nuking it. I sometimes don't care if a game takes over the machine. But I HATE games that force me to COLD BOOT my Amiga. Yes, cold boot. The idiot programmers trash the Kickstart. Dan //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ | Dan Barrett, Department of Computer Science Johns Hopkins University | | INTERNET: barrett@cs.jhu.edu | | | COMPUSERVE: >internet:barrett@cs.jhu.edu | UUCP: barrett@jhunix.UUCP | \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
pashdown@javelin.es.com (Pete Ashdown) (12/13/90)
buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: >Tell me ONE good arcade game that multitask on the amiga. Mindwalker. For that matter, all of Bill Williams games are very OS friendly and work on all platforms. He also programs exclusively in assembly language. I haven't seen any European hack-slash programmers animate HAM like what was done in Pioneer Plague. Also keep in mind that Mindwalker was one of the first games out for the Amiga. I believe it came out around Kickstart 1.0. Because Bill Williams followed guidelines, the only fix that has been needed for it was fixhunk and this is forgiveable because there weren't any specs on fast-ram at the time. > Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr -- "While you are here, your wives and girlfriends are dating handsome American movie and TV stars. Stars like Tom Selleck, Bruce Willis, and Bart Simpson." -- Baghdad Betty Pete Ashdown pashdown%javelin@dsd.es.com ...dsd.es.com!javelin!pashdown
johnhlee@hermod.cs.cornell.edu (John H. Lee) (12/13/90)
In article <1990Dec12.114250@avahi.inria.fr> colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: >In article <22110@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: >> That's Mike, not Marc :-) > >oops... Sorry! > >> So what? There's also no multitasking, and no hard drive. > >Let me try another explanation for nuking the OS. I am new to the amiga world, >but multitasking on the amiga with many processes accessing the drives seems >to me an error-prone situation... By doing this I often get corrupted I/O >which I dont get by doing things sequentially. (*) > >No, I'm not saying that AmigaDos is at fault, it may be one of the 10 resident >drivers/utilities I use which is at fault, but this stresses my point: If you >want PowerMonger to multitask, it is because you are a power user, and thus >are using tons of little taks whose interaction may lead to problems, making >you say "PM doesn't works", but the problem may be in your super-hyper-duper >screen saver... > >So they perhaps want to avoid having bad reputation because of other people's >fault... Or they have discovered a bug in the OS preventing safe multitasking >for their purposes. > >(*) As an example: Seems to me that using two concurrent processes to read >MSDOS disks via MSH yields you corrupted buffer I/Os, but I'm not sure Wrong. Two concurrent processes accessing the disk will not corrupt buffers, even if they use MSH. Before you make another blatently false statement like that, you should learn about the system first and make sure you know what you're talking about. You may be using an older version of MSH with a bug in it. I do often exactly what you describe with no problems. If a utility or other system addition made by the user does something wrong, it is the user's problem and *not* a justification for taking over the system. Just because a person wants his game to multitask doesn't make him/her a poweruser. Plenty of other games with high performance graphics multitask fine. There is no OS bug to hinder the sort of things a game needs to do. Sorry, you've seemed to have earned my wrath today. I have seen too many games take over the system for no good reason and too many people defending it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The DiskDoctor threatens the crew! Next time on AmigaDos: The Next Generation. John Lee Internet: johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu The above opinions of those of the user, and not of this machine.
C503719@UMCVMB.MISSOURI.EDU (Baird McIntosh) (12/13/90)
In Message-ID: <1990Dec12.190936.3023@javelin.es.com>
pashdown@javelin.es.com (Pete Ashdown) said:
>buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes:
>
>>Tell me ONE good arcade game that multitask on the amiga.
>
>Mindwalker. For that matter, all of Bill Williams games are very OS friendly
>and work on all platforms. He also programs exclusively in assembly language.
>I haven't seen any European hack-slash programmers animate HAM like what was
>done in Pioneer Plague.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Does Pioneer Plague multitask? I'm truly curious...
| Baird McIntosh | c503719@umcvmb.missouri.edu <-or-> c503719@umcvmb.bitnet |
| COOL DRIVING TECHNIQUE #11: No turn signals! That's right... NO SIGNALS! |
| Wanna left turn? Right? Lane change? Parallel park? Screw the signals!|dw3w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Database Work) (12/13/90)
About multi-tasking of games, especially Powermonger, there is a lot of multi taskingin involeved without haveing background tasks . IU r realize that many of you havbe e faster systems, but tfpoor the majority of the people the,. the extra time making it compatible with AmigaSDOPS S is not worth it. I have fdouound that people on the next t generally have better ssystems than the average joe-blow with an Amiga. DO you think the thoughsnads of users in Europe are complainin ghg that games don't go on a HD they don't have, or multi-tasking theyt ddon't worrey about because they only have 512k,. I would very much like to see games witjhaythaat multi-task , but I don't have a HD. Think of the small percentage of users with thie recsources avaiilable to do what you want games to do, and see if you feel the extra effor tt is justified. Ryan NEwman
cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) (12/13/90)
buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: < farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: < > colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: < > >PS: Just PLEASE stop bashing about non-use of OS resources. I think that by < > >making it fast loading, without disk access during playing, and with no < > >disk-based protection, Bullfrog is really trying to make life easier... < > < > So what? There's also no multitasking, and no hard drive. < < Hard drive compatibility would have been great, but multitasking makes only < bad games when animation speed is essential. This is a valid point. There are cases where animation speed can be impaired by multitasking. There is, however, an alternative to forcing me to reboot after the game ends. Why not simply return control of my Amiga to me? < > but that doesn't change the fact that it's just sloppy. No disk accesses? < > What the hell difference do disk accesses make, if you can limit them to < > the times when there's going to be a break in the game action anyway? I < > presume that there are things like setup screens, option screens, and the < > like, just like in Populous - so what do you lose by having those loaded < > only when needed, since they are going to cause a break in the action < > anyway? And with the extra memory you've just gotten as a gift, you can < > give me back my system, which is worth a few seconds delay any time, as < > far as I'm concerned. < < True. I see that you agree with Mike here. This is good. < > Hell, at the very least they could check to see if the system's already < > up, and run with overlays if they need to, and otherwise take over everything. < > Even DPaint gives you the option of overlays or not. But no - Bullfrog has < > to decide FOR me what's right and proper. Not to mention the fact that < > they're going to be sitting there, letting most of MY memory go to waste, < > idling away its time, and probably getting into trouble :-) < < You compare Powermonger and Dpaint. Are you mad ??? I haven't got 5 megs of < memory, and I don't want disk access only because one crazy programmer wrote < his game so that people with a lot of memory won't have any disk access. But above you agreed that disk access is alright, if it is limited to 'breaks in the action'. What is it you are really trying to say? < Powermonger is nice in the fact that it didn't make any disk acess once the < games is started. Between a lot of disk access (overlays) and multitasking < (which I really don't care on my "normal" amiga) and people with a lot of < memory happy, and no disk acess for everybody (more fun to play a game without < disk access) and some Mike Farren's unhappy on the net, my choice is evident. You are free to make your choices, but so am I. I often choose not to purchase a game because it does not fully support my system, such as the 68000-bound (albeit popular) Immortal. < And don't forget that in the world thare are 5/6 of Amiga 500 with 512k, < single drive. While this may be true, it is also true that those who can afford to expand their Amigas are also more likely to be able to afford more software (including games). < HEY MIKE ! What games did you write so that you can give such "good" advices ? < Did you write better games than Populous and Powermonger ? [ ... ] < Why aren't you on the cover of a magazine ? Now the gratuitous insults begin. Whether Mike, or anyone else for that matter, has written a 'better version of Populous' is irrelevent. Mike has pointed out some valid problems with the arguments used by those who would 'trash the OS'. You have not addressed any of them. < Tell us what good games you wrote. We'll make a vote, and if it seems for < everybody that they are good games, then we will listen to you. I would rather listen to Mike's intelligent remarks than to rantings such as yours, hands down. < Bullfrog wrote Populous, wrote Powermonger, Flood. They are all good games. Do < you think they never thought about writing the game only using the Rom code, < multitask, and so on... They are good programmers, they are not Dumb people. < They certainly tried this before and discovered that making a good scrolling < with the Scrollraster function is impossible, that multitasking games that use < a lot of computing power are too slow on Amiga without accelerator cards. I suspect that Bullfrog has never given any thought to multitasking, expanded systems, overlays, or any other sensible extensions to their products which just might expand their market. You should also remember that there are more games out there than blast-the-hideous-beast style of shoot-em-up. Many games DO multitask, DO give resources back, CAN BE installed on a hard disk, AND can still run quite well on 68000-based Amigas. < You know mike, in 10k, you can put a lot of nice sound effects. I prefer < programmers who give me good sound effects (like in Powermonger) than < programmers who write a bad multitasking OS friendly game with poor sound < effects. Why do you always speak in such extreme terms? Is it impossible, in your mind, to have a game with good sound effects, which also happens to multitask (or at least give system resources back when it is finished)? < And don't forget, I want to know the games you wrote. Why? Do you wish to compare all the wonderful games you have written with those written by Mike? If so, then 'put up or shut up'. Regards, Chris -- Chris (Insert phrase here) Seaman | ___-/^\-___ qatul batlh. cseaman@gateway.sequent.com <or> | //__--\O/--__\\ qatul Huch. ...!uunet!sequent!cseaman | // \\ qatul roj. The Home of the Killer Smiley | `\ /'
Radagast@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) (12/13/90)
>> >PS: Just PLEASE stop bashing about non-use of OS resources. I think that by >> >making it fast loading, without disk access during playing, and with no >> >disk-based protection, Bullfrog is really trying to make life easier on the >> >player, so I feel it a bit unfair to criticize them, especially from people >> >who didn't try it!!! For instance, Marc Farren, instead of speaking of >> >overlays, etc, did you realize there is no disk accesses during game? > >I'm really fed-up with all these people who talk about programming techniques >and never wrote a GOOD game. Mike, I tried once one of your game in a shop, >and I'm sorry but it was terrible. The animation was slow, slow... Ans so long >to load with a single drive... I can not even remeber the name of this game. > >Tell us what good games you wrote. We'll make a vote, and if it seems for >everybody that they are good games, then we will listen to you. > I'm really fed-up with all these people who think that I can't definitively describe what qualifies IMHO as a good game .vs. a bad one because I haven't written any games. I don't *want* to write games. I want to *play* them but many manufacturer's of games I would otherwise find acceptable, are destroying their games by not supporting my hardware. I'm glad that you like the game. Unfortunately I don't, so the game is *bad* for me. And the reason I don't like it isn't because of graphics, or sound, or playability, or price, but because I can't use it in my free time. My free time is between compiles, too bad Populous and PowerMonger are both incapable of running in my environment. -kls
dtiberio@csserv2.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (12/13/90)
I think that SimCity gets too boring after the city is developed (meybe 20 years or so). Is SimEarth really better? What features are added? I am interested in the game! :)
buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) (12/13/90)
In article <1990Dec12.190936.3023@javelin.es.com>, pashdown@javelin.es.com (Pete Ashdown) writes: > buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: > > >Tell me ONE good arcade game that multitask on the amiga. > > Mindwalker. For that matter, all of Bill Williams games are very OS friendly > and work on all platforms. He also programs exclusively in assembly language. I think you are right. I've got to try Mindwalker again, as I haven't played it for years to check that it is still a good arcade game, but if I remember, the game was very good. But it's an exception. > I haven't seen any European hack-slash programmers animate HAM like what was > done in Pioneer Plague. Pionner plague is not a good game. Very repetitive action, not so good animation compared to all the new 60Hz animated games. -- ------------------------------------------ Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis, 2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65 ------------------------------------------
d89-rbi@musta.nada.kth.se (Ron Birk) (12/13/90)
I agree in the fact that all programming beside the game (which is VER GOOD), are VERY BAD!!! They decided this time to only have manual-protection, but WHY using a special disk-format?? And not regular Amiga-Dos files, and WHY block the whole computer. At least they could have an option for A500 users with only 512K, and another for use who have som ebetter machines. Ans the worst thing is ALL DISK ROUTINES. They STINKS! No disk-access during the game one said, but why not turn off the disk-motor after reading the last file? Then the drive is working through all the game, which will be some hours!! Then if you have two drives you MUST have a disk in DF1: to get no trouble, but the game CAN'T handle data/save-disk in DF1:. You must swap disks!! Very BAD! Etc etc etc, If it wasn't for the game, I would already give the game to my dog.. Ron Birk
DXB132@psuvm.psu.edu (12/13/90)
In article <22110@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) says: >but that doesn't change the fact that it's just sloppy. No disk accesses? >What the hell difference do disk accesses make, if you can limit them to A very big difference!!! I hate endless disk access; I hate ANY disk access! I'm sure lots of people feel the same way. The most playable games usually have little or no disk access. I don't really care if such a game is system-nasty, either. On the other hand, massive 3-disk games MUST be hard disk installable, or take advantage of my 3megs of RAM, to be playable. Being system-friendly is a real advantage here. By the way, of all the people I know personally here at school with Amigas, only ONE person does not have a hard drive. (He has 1meg & 2 floppies). In fact, the vast majority have 2000s with 40MB hard drives & 3MB of RAM. Not all the world is running 512K Amigas with 1 floppy. And yes, we all play lots of games! -- Dan Babcock
pashdown@javelin.es.com (Pete Ashdown) (12/13/90)
buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: >> I haven't seen any European hack-slash programmers animate HAM like what was >> done in Pioneer Plague. >Pionner plague is not a good game. Very repetitive action, not so good >animation compared to all the new 60Hz animated games. I didn't say it was a good game, I said it was a technically excellent game. The HAM animation RIPS in comparison to any other HAM animation out there. How about "Knights of the Crystallion"? Another Bill Williams game. This one is a better game, and the HAM animation is even more incredible. Plus, unless Bill suddenly moved to the UK and started using Seka, I'd imagine that "Crystallion" is friendly to all platforms and multitasks. So Michel, whats the excuse now? You asked for examples and I gave them to you. > Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr -- "While you are here, your wives and girlfriends are dating handsome American movie and TV stars. Stars like Tom Selleck, Bruce Willis, and Bart Simpson." -- Baghdad Betty Pete Ashdown pashdown%javelin@dsd.es.com ...dsd.es.com!javelin!pashdown
cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) (12/14/90)
buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: < pashdown@javelin.es.com (Pete Ashdown) writes: < > buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: < > < > >Tell me ONE good arcade game that multitask on the amiga. < > < > Mindwalker. For that matter, all of Bill Williams games are very < > OS friendly and work on all platforms. He also programs exclusively < > in assembly language. < < I think you are right. I've got to try Mindwalker again, as I haven't < played it for years to check that it is still a good arcade game, but < if I remember, the game was very good. But it's an exception. It is no exception. It proves that a game can be: A) System/OS friendly B) Multitasking C) Technically superior D) Fun The fact that it (Mindwalker) has accomplished these things proves that anyone else who is willing to invest the time can do the same, and anyone who says otherwise is either misinformed, lazy, or greedy (or some combination of the three). Regards, Chris -- Chris (Insert phrase here) Seaman | ___-/^\-___ qatul batlh. cseaman@gateway.sequent.com <or> | //__--\O/--__\\ qatul Huch. ...!uunet!sequent!cseaman | // \\ qatul roj. The Home of the Killer Smiley | `\ /'
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) (12/14/90)
I don't know why everyone is sweating about this whole thing so much. I mean granted, there are aspects of the game that are poorly done in terms of lack of multitasking, HD Installability, etc, but the basic thing I think MOST folks want to know is: How good is the GAME? To me, being able to multitask, HD installability, etc, if supported by the game, are like added extra bonuses that increase the appeal. I don't really cry about it if they aren't there. (Unless, as in some Seirra On-Line games, those features are really needed!) The bottom line is still the fact that if the game isn't any fun, I won't really care if it multitasks and it can be put on my HD cause I'll probably trash it and use the disk from something useful like ray tracings. I think this debate on whether or not Bullfrog was right/wrong for not adding those features probably belongs in another newsgroup. This is just my opinion, of course, and so doesn't really mean anything. ;-) So, to get to the bottom line: How's the game? Personally, I think it's great. Lack of certain features aside, the game itself is amazingly deep and fun to play. The fact that you can look at each individual and they will have a different name and status all their own simply floors me. The combination of strategy and action set it in a class by itself. IMHO, it should be high on every Amiga owner's Christmas Wishlist. Go to a store and try it. I think most of you will like it despite the lack of HD support or multitasking. Let's give the bickering a rest and get back to talking about the games themselves. Bickering isn't any fun, gaming is. Just my own humble and twisted views.... -Moriland -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ "As if things weren't bad enough already...."| Founder of: "Young Evil Please excuse my ramblings as they come from | Mutants For A Better Tommorow. a diseased mind. -Moriland | hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (12/15/90)
In <4244@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) writes: >I don't know why everyone is sweating about this whole thing so much. I mean >granted, there are aspects of the game that are poorly done in terms of >lack of multitasking, HD Installability, etc, but the basic thing I think >MOST folks want to know is: How good is the GAME? > > [ ... deleted ... ] > >So, to get to the bottom line: How's the game? A friend of mine loves onions.He likes them cooked, raw, steamed, fried, and in soups, salads, casseroles, and on hamburgers. He like some kinds of onions more than others. When raw, he especially likes the large, sweet, spanish onions. When cooked, he likes the yellow-skinned, medium sized onions. Unfortunately, onions don't like him. If he eats a hamburger with onions on it, he knows he will suffer some gastointestinal discomfort a few hours later. If he eats a raw, spanish onion sandwich, he will suffer a lot more. In the interest of furthering rational discussion, I asked him if he buys onions a lot. He said he didn't, because he knew they would cause him grief, and said grief was in a way that was very noticable to him, and thus, very important to him. I replied that yes, I understood that, but still, how did the onions taste? I mean, if he liked them, he should buy them, regardless of the effect they had on him. He said that no, he felt that the discomfort was more than he cared to put up with, and that no matter how good the onion tasted, it was just not a sufficient reason for him to eat it. I pressed on, insisting that the taste of the onion was the important factor, not whether it made him ill, or how it looked, or whatever other criteria he might apply. Funny... I couldn't convince him. I wonder why? If you like a game, and it doesn't have other characteristics that annoy you enough to matter, by all means buy it, for that is your right. For me, I will not buy it if it has enough annoying characteristics, and that is my right. I won't bore you with the details of what I consider to be too much to bear in a game, but I will say that if it first does not meet my minimum criteria, I will never find out what the game plays like, and frankly, it would not matter if I did. If a company wants me (and many others with the same feelings), to look at the game, and to buy it, they must first get rid of its annoyances. Otherwise, I will let those who don't care, support the product. They will get what they deserve, which is what they will put up with in the interest of playing the game. -larry -- The best way to accelerate an MsDos machine is at 32 ft/sec/sec. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (12/16/90)
In <4274@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) writes: > I agree. Your friend should not buy onions if they cause him >discomfort. Doing so would be silly in the extreme. It was a nice >parable and all, but let me point out this simple fact: > >At the same time that your friend did not buy onions because of thier >effect on him, he also did not go around complaining about how much he >loved onions, but couldn't eat them. Ahh, but that's just it. He does grumble about it, because he really does like them. >Too many people on here who are annoyed by certain aspects of >Powermonger are spending too much time complaining about it. If you >don't like the game for that reason, then fine, speak your peace and >then don't buy it. Please don't drone on and on about it forever >though. Are you perhaps mistaking dialog for 'dronng on and on'? > Some of us would like to know what the game is like. I finally >broke down and decided not to look for help on here on the matter and >went to the store and played it. Then I bought it. I have been playing >most of the time that I haven't been on the net. > >Also let me say that Powermonger is software, not onions. Software >with minor problems that for some folks prove unexcusable. Fine, don't >buy it. The rest of us, those of us for whom onions have no negative >effect on, will continue to enjoy it in your absence. Yes, it's software, and it is indeed as valid for folks to post the negative comments about it as it is for them to post positive comments about it. As a case in point, let me mention the post that came through yesterday or today, asking if Powermonger was HD installable, and if it multitasked. The poster obviously missed the comments on Powermonger in the greater flurry of dialog discussing whether the most important thing in a game was game play or other factors. Since both these viewpoints constitute opinion only, they are valid postings in their own right. Kindly do the net the courtesy of allowing the expression of said pinions. -larry -- The best way to accelerate an MsDos machine is at 32 ft/sec/sec. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) (12/16/90)
I agree. Your friend should not buy onions if they cause him discomfort. Doing so would be silly in the extreme. It was a nice parable and all, but let me point out this simple fact: At the same time that your friend did not buy onions because of thier effect on him, he also did not go around complaining about how much he loved onions, but couldn't eat them. Too many people on here who are annoyed by certain aspects of Powermonger are spending too much time complaining about it. If you don't like the game for that reason, then fine, speak your peace and then don't buy it. Please don't drone on and on about it forever though. Some of us would like to know what the game is like. I finally broke down and decided not to look for help on here on the matter and went to the store and played it. Then I bought it. I have been playing most of the time that I haven't been on the net. Also let me say that Powermonger is software, not onions. Software with minor problems that for some folks prove unexcusable. Fine, don't buy it. The rest of us, those of us for whom onions have no negative effect on, will continue to enjoy it in your absence. As always.... -Moriland -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ "As if things weren't bad enough already...."| Founder of: "Evil Young Please excuse my ramblings as they come from | Mutants For A Better Tommorow. a diseased mind. -Moriland | hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu
farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) (12/16/90)
buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: >Hard drive compatibility would have been great, but multitasking makes only >bad games when animation speed is essential. I'm getting a bit tired of this, Buffa. What I've said, consistently, is that the MAJORITY of cases do not require disabling multitasking to get full speed. There might be some that do - but even those should NOT nuke the OS. There's NO reason to do so - NONE. Period. Any game which requires a reboot when it's finished is WRONG. Period. >You compare Powermonger and Dpaint. Are you mad?i Well, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it any more, but I don't think that's what you meant. The only reason I compared the two programs was because DPaint, very sensibly, lets ME make the choice - disk accesses or less memory usage. I like having choices. >And don't forget that in the world thare are 5/6 of Amiga 500 with 512k, >single drive. Which means that there are 1/6 (or over 300,000 machines) which have more. Trashing that number of machines is REALLY DUMB! >HEY MIKE ! What games did you write so that you can give such "good" advices ? >Did you write better games than Populous and Powermonger ? Using only the Rom >code ? You're starting to get VERY obnoxious, here. First - I've NEVER said that you should use "only the ROM code". Use it when it's appropriate, don't use it if it's not. Doesn't mean that you can get away with anything you choose to do, though. Just because Bullfrog (who are Atari ST programmers, by the way) chooses to treat the Amiga like an Atari doesn't make it right. >I'm really fed-up with all these people who talk about programming techniques >and never wrote a GOOD game. Mike, I tried once one of your game in a shop, >and I'm sorry but it was terrible. The animation was slow, slow... Ans so long >to load with a single drive... I can not even remeber the name of this game. I suspect this is a falsehood. I do not have that many games on the market for the Amiga, and all of them I've done live on one floppy, no more. >Tell us what good games you wrote. We'll make a vote, and if it seems for >everybody that they are good games, then we will listen to you. I think you should listen to me because I make sense. >Bullfrog wrote Populous, wrote Powermonger, Flood. They are all good games. Do >you think they never thought about writing the game only using the Rom code, >multitask, and so on... They are good programmers, they are not Dumb people. No, they are Atari ST programmers - all of their games were done on the ST, and ported to the Amiga. They do NOT think about any of those things, because on the ST, you not only don't have to, you CAN'T. >I prefer programmers who give me good sound effects (like in Powermonger) >than programmers who write a bad multitasking OS friendly game with poor >sound effects. And I prefer people who do games with good sound effects AND multitasking- friendly games. >And don't forget, I want to know the games you wrote. I'm going to do that - but not because I have anything to prove to you. Let's start in 1973, when I first got involved in the video game industry. I worked for RAMTEK and ICI, designing video arcade games. Were you even born yet, Buffa? When the video game industry went bust, around 1974, I went on to other areas of the computer industry, including work on some nice computer graphics hardware. I returned to games in 1978, when I began doing freelance work for Automated Simulations, the company which later became Epyx. For two years, I did ALL of their Apple ][ games - one of which, TEMPLE OF APSHAI, stayed in the top ten list for a long, long time. Another of the games I did, CRUSH, CRUMBLE, AND CHOMP, was Jerry Pournelle's fave game for at least a year. (I know, that's faint praise, but what the hell...). In all, I did about twenty games for AS (and Epyx, later). I did some Atari 800 games, as well, with my favorite being GATEWAY TO APSHAI. To the point here, GATEWAY was a dungeon exploration type game, with full scrolling (60Hz!), 128 different levels, and over 80 different monsters (each with their own distinctive behavior), armor, weapons, spells, etc., and which ran on a 16K Atari system. (Read that again - 16K. I don't even want to HEAR any complaints about lack of memory :-). After that, I did a couple of more games, but left the games industry to do freelance work (not games, mostly). I've done five Amiga games, two of which I am not allowed to discuss due to contract problems. The three which I've done which I can discuss are: QUINK - done for CBS Software, an educational game which, frankly, wasn't too hot, both because it's old (the Amiga manuals did not yet exist), and because it isn't very good - the requirement was to make it look just like the IBM version (yuch). CRYSTAL QUEST - a port of the Mac game. Fully animated (60Hz, eh?), with up to 100 objects on-screen simultaneously. You don't get bad speed degradation until more than 40 of 'em are running around. Compare this with the Mac II version, which degrades around the same time, but has a 68020 in it... This game also is hard disk mountable, fully multitasking-friendly, and runs just fine on a 3000 system. STORM ACROSS EUROPE - a port of the SSI strategy game, from the C64. Again, fully multitasking (you can even iconify the damn thing and get back all of your CHIP RAM), hard-drive installable, and, yes, it uses the ROM code exclusively - but then, it's a strategy game which doesn't need to have super speed. -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us
farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) (12/16/90)
dw3w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Database Work) writes: >for the majority of the people the extra time making it compatible with >AmigaDOS is not worth it. The point is that it doesn't take much extra time, if you think about it. It isn't very difficult to do at all - certainly less difficult than writing all of your own routines to replace all of the AmigaDOS routines that you use. >Think of the small percentage of users with the resources avaiilable to do >what you want games to do, and see if you feel the extra effort is justified. Yes, it is. If, as Buffa suggests, 5/6 of all Amigas don't have the extras, that means that 1/6 of them DO. That's 300,000 machines - a big market. Besides, if you're going to take that tack, then the only machine anyone should ever develop for is the original 1000, with 256K. After all, not EVERYONE has those "extras"... -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us
farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) (12/16/90)
DXB132@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >I hate endless disk access; I hate ANY disk access! >I'm sure lots of people feel the same way. The most playable games usually have >little or no disk access. You weren't listening carefully. I don't like disk accesses in the middle of a game, either, but if they're carefully designed so that they only occur during otherwise "normal" breaks in the game, then it doesn't make that much of a difference - the additional annoyance factor is minimal. Certainly, disk accesses right in the middle of play are a pain, and shouldn't be there. But disk accesses to load in the next level, or to load in the "control panel" overlay, or the like, just don't make that much difference. In the name of honesty, I must admit that Storm Across Europe has too many disk accesses. In order to get it to fit into 512K, I had to do some strange tweaking, including running it with overlays. The only time it's a real pain is on a single-floppy system, but even there the disk accesses are at "normal" points within the game, so it doesn't annoy nearly as much as it might. Still, I offer no excuses - I done it wrong, and the only excuse I can offer is the time constraints I was working under. -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us
lrg7030@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren Rittle) (12/17/90)
Mike Farren writes: >dw3w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Database Work) writes: > >>for the majority of the people the extra time making it compatible with >>AmigaDOS is not worth it. > >The point is that it doesn't take much extra time, if you think about it. >It isn't very difficult to do at all - certainly less difficult than writing >all of your own routines to replace all of the AmigaDOS routines that you >use. Hey Mike, I not only completely agree with you, I also think that you have been too easy on some of these guys. It is far easier to use the standard AmigaOS routines to read disks, harddrives, <insert your favorite logical device here! (some of you kids out there, do you even know what a logical device is? haha)>. I currently believe that most of these OS breakers, write there own complex routines to do disk reads and writes for one reason and *one* reason alone: To hopefully `protect' and `hide' their game code from others view (ya, it almost works, ha). Then these people have the gall to tell me, an Amiga programmer, that it's easier to write your routines than to learn how the AmigaOS does things. Total Bull Shit! I will never buy another game from the company that makes Full Metal Planet, as I had a talk with one of their company reps at a convention. He tried to convince me why their games only run from floppy, use a non-standard formats, etc. He didn't have clue, and he tried to explain why it is easier to code around AmigaOS. I laughed, stated I would not buy another game from them until it was HD installable (as *their* IBM versions do for Christ's Sake!) and clamly walked away. Loren J. Rittle -- ``In short, this is the absolute coolest computer device ever invented!'' -Tom Denbo speaking about The VideoToaster by NewTek ``Think about NewTek's VideoToaster! Now think about the Amiga!'' Loren J. Rittle lrg7030@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) (12/17/90)
In article <22195@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: > DXB132@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > >I hate endless disk access; I hate ANY disk access! > >I'm sure lots of people feel the same way. The most playable games usually have > >little or no disk access. I agree totally. Saint dragon has no game break as it loads continuously while the game is running. Programmers of the sales curves designed a dynamic loader so that the game never stops. Silkworm IV will use that dynamic loading system, and it will certainly be a great game. Of course it won't multitask, but who cares ? > You weren't listening carefully. I don't like disk accesses in the middle of > a game, either, but if they're carefully designed so that they only occur > during otherwise "normal" breaks in the game, then it doesn't make that much > of a difference - the additional annoyance factor is minimal. Certainly, > disk accesses right in the middle of play are a pain, and shouldn't be there. > But disk accesses to load in the next level, or to load in the "control panel" > overlay, or the like, just don't make that much difference. Yes, it does. I prefer no disk access than just a little. > > In the name of honesty, I must admit that Storm Across Europe has too many > disk accesses. In order to get it to fit into 512K, I had to do some strange > tweaking, including running it with overlays. The only time it's a real pain > is on a single-floppy system, but even there the disk accesses are at "normal" > points within the game, so it doesn't annoy nearly as much as it might. Still, > I offer no excuses - I done it wrong, and the only excuse I can offer is the > time constraints I was working under. I excuse you as I didn't buy your game, but think a little about the poor guy with a single A500 with one drive !!!!! He'd certainly kill you for such painful disk access. > -- > Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us -- ------------------------------------------ Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis, 2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65 ------------------------------------------
barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) (12/18/90)
>> DXB132@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >> >I hate endless disk access; I hate ANY disk access! In article <9463@mirsa.inria.fr> buffa@mirsa.inria.fr writes: >I agree totally. Disk access would not even be an issue for many people if the game were installable on hard drives. Dan
sysop@tlvx.UUCP (SysOp) (12/19/90)
In article <1990Dec12.114250@avahi.inria.fr>, colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: > In article <22110@well.sf.ca.us>, farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: .. > > So what? There's also no multitasking, and no hard drive. > > Let me try another explanation for nuking the OS. I am new to the amiga world, > but multitasking on the amiga with many processes accessing the drives seems > to me an error-prone situation... By doing this I often get corrupted I/O > which I dont get by doing things sequentially. (*) > > No, I'm not saying that AmigaDos is at fault, it may be one of the 10 resident > drivers/utilities I use which is at fault, but this stresses my point: If you Why don't you try to figure out which nifty-keen program is corrupting your system? If I try something out and it guru's my machine, I stop using it and try to find something else. AmigaDOS is designed to multitask. It almost sounds like you're trying to find reasons to not multitask. Let's assume for the moment that the programs that *I* am running seem to be reliable. (Trust me. :-) Now, let me multitask! > want PowerMonger to multitask, it is because you are a power user, and thus Power user? All I want to do is play a game while my modem auto-dials some local BBS's. Sounds like something even a "normal" user might like to try. How about formatting disks? That takes more than a minute. If you had a stack of blank floppies, you could format, and pause the game occasionally and check on their progress. Power user? If you save time, well, I guess you could say that that is power. :-) I might not need to multitask all of the time. It's nice to just "do" it, almost without thinking. (Contrast this with working on a clone..... well, "shelling out" is usually good enough for me, but that's another story....) > are using tons of little taks whose interaction may lead to problems, making > you say "PM doesn't works", but the problem may be in your super-hyper-duper > screen saver... It is true that it'll be harder to find problems, but it is possible that some things can been seen in beta-testing. For instance, in the erratta sheet in Harpoon, they mention a screen that doesn't work with Dmouse (I think it was). I had problems with it in using my mouse program as well (clockdj). I'm not sure where the problem really lies, but it is easy to work around that problem. (It seems to be the "click to front" feature confuses that window in the game, but I can't say for sure.) Anyway, more to the point, if you have no problem, then you won't have to worry about it. If you do have a problem, boot off of the game's floppy, which won't have your drivers or programs. Right? Then the problem can be isolated to either your system or theirs. > > So they perhaps want to avoid having bad reputation because of other people's > fault... Or they have discovered a bug in the OS preventing safe multitasking > for their purposes. You really WANT this not to work, don't you? ;-) :-) I can see a couple of valid excuses, such as needing every scrap of CPU time (but then the program can simply "pause" multitasking, and when the game is "paused", it can reenable multitasking). Or, as someone else has mentioned, you could have need for every bit of space for 512K. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to support 2 versions, but I would suggest writing programs in a modular way such that it would be easier to link 2 programs. In many cases, I agree with those that have said that overlays could be used in areas which force things to pause anyway, such as to gather input inbetween plays. Some great arcade-type games already spend a great deal of time between levels accessing the disk drive (I assume to read in graphics and sound). I know, I know, you need your custom dos format to read those levels in faster.... ;-) > > (*) As an example: Seems to me that using two concurrent processes to read > MSDOS disks via MSH yields you corrupted buffer I/Os, but I'm not sure Well, for the sake of argument, let's say that this is true -- what does this have to do with my purpose in multitasking, such as in my example of running a terminal program in the background? Two programs can access DF0: at the same time, even (although you'll probably want to use a different disk for each purpose anyway). > > -- > Colas Nahaboo, Bull Research France -- Koala Project -- GWM X11 Window Manager > Internet: colas@mirsa.inria.fr, Phone: (33) 93.65.77.70, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 66 > INRIA Sophia, 2004, rte des Lucioles, B.P.109 - 06561 Valbonne Cedex, FRANCE -- Gary Wolfe, SYSOP of the Temporal Vortex BBS // Amiga! .uflorida!unf7!tlvx!sysop, ..unf7!tlvx!sysop@bikini.cis.ufl.edu \X/ Yeah!
farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) (12/19/90)
buffa@kish.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: >I excuse you as I didn't buy your game, but think a little about the poor guy >with a single A500 with one drive !!!!! He'd certainly kill you for such >painful disk access. Well, Buffa does it again... For your information, I've gotten several responses from A500 users, and, in fact, the game was tested nearly exclusively on A500s with only one drive. Guess what? No complaints about disk accesses at all. You lose. -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us
bryce@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bryce Nesbitt) (12/24/90)
In article <> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >First the bad news: the game is not hard drive installable, and won't >multitask. Paraphrasing: > > ...To put a game like this in that box, you haven't got any choice; > you have to nuke the operating system and take over the machine. > Make it HD installable or multitasking, and it won't run in 512K.... > >Sigh. You can't argue very hard with that logic. They have to pay the >bills. Sure you can argue with that. Simply require that the hard disk owner has more memory. The game either takes over and runs in 512K, or loads all of itself from the hard disk, then takes over. What is harder to figure out is why PowerMonger won't work under 2.0. -- |\_/| . "ACK!, NAK!, EOT!, SOH!" "Lawyers: America's untapped export market." {X o} . Bryce Nesbitt, Operating Systems Group, Commodore-Amiga, Inc. (") BIX: bnesbitt U USENET: bryce@commodore.COM -or- uunet!cbmvax!bryce
hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Adam Hill) (12/24/90)
C'mon.. PM does not have "really fast" graphics or 55KHz "real sound" so
why (Other than CP reasons) does it take over my Amiga?? Perhaps SOTB(I and II)
need to do Copper tricks to look INCREDIBLE, but PM does, at most, Zoom IN/OUT
and rotate the map. Not particularly fast.
If the reason is the game logic I MIGHT forgive them (I have seen control
logic for Operation Com Bat and "The New And Improved Tele-Epic" -- Large and
memory intensive.. Yuck!) but, for that memory reason Tele-Epic II will be
a 1M game. The market should be able to support that MINIMAL requirement with
a 512K Expansion in the 50-70.00 range. (At least Merit hopes it will :-) )
--
adam hill
hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu Make Up Your Own Mind.. AMIGA!
Amiga... Multimedia NOW
Most Common Phrase at DevCon '90 - "Shhhhhhh.." cmcmanis@stpeter.Eng.Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (12/25/90)
Whew! A lot of noise on the net about multitasking and games. Listen up guys
this ones for you...
There seems to be the misunderstanding that if a game is OS friendly then
I'll be running Dpaint at the same time I'm running Killer Tomatoes and the
guy who wrote Killer Tomatoes will get blamed for lousy performance. This
is bullshit and you should know it right now.
The Amiga has many unique features that are not available on any other PC
and multitasking is one of them. However, the Amiga gives the programmer
the option to correctly shut down ANY of those options that they don't
want. Now it isn't as easy as it is on the Commodore-64 but hey thats life.
In particular, multitasking on the Amiga is PRIORITY based. That means that
_only_ the tasks with the highest priority run. So if Killer Tomatoes runs
and gives itself a priority of 127 it is the _only_ thing that runs, nobody
else gets a single cycle.
"But wait Chuck, every 60th of a second the scheduler runs to figure out
what task to run next." Correct, but two things make this irrelevent
a) A single high priority task can take a quantum interrupt and
be running again in about 30 instructions, and
b) Display graphics ought to be based on interrupts anyway and
they don't have to go through the scheduler.
Mssr. Buffa posed the challenge to name one decent game that allowed
multitasking. No doubt he feels that the lack of evidence is a form
of evidence. I believe it is only the absence of committment on the
various games developers. The Lucas Film people are making great strides
toward killer games and haven't shut down the OS yet.
I understand the motivation for getting the OS out of one's collective
face and getting down to the metal. Unfortunately a lot of people use
their A500es as disk loading Nintendo machines and this doesn't penalize
people for their poorly thought out strategies. The only incentive I
can offer is that eventually, maybe not today and maybe not tommorrow,
but eventually, the difference between the games that sell on the Amiga
and the ones that don't is going to be the attitude of programmers who
write them. In particular the attitude toward using what is in ROM
versus rewriting it yourself. Couldn't you use an extra 512K for game
data for "free" ? Dumping your own functions and using the real ones
will give you this.
--
--Chuck McManis Sun Microsystems
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: <none> Internet: cmcmanis@Eng.Sun.COM
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
"I tell you this parrot is bleeding deceased!"xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (12/26/90)
hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Adam Hill) writes: > C'mon.. PM does not have "really fast" graphics or 55KHz "real sound" so >why (Other than CP reasons) does it take over my Amiga?? Perhaps SOTB(I and II) >need to do Copper tricks to look INCREDIBLE, but PM does, at most, Zoom IN/OUT >and rotate the map. Not particularly fast. Uh, nope. Take a look again at one of the snow or rainstorms and figure out how many graphic objects you see in motion. Or, count the characters moving in a single scene, and notice there are too many for them to be sprites, so the blitter is being continually reprogrammed to restore the background and redraw the figures. PowerMonger is doing a _lot_ of graphics stuff. Granted the 3D rotate is a little sedate, but that's a very cpu intensive operation; I'd bet the cpu is going full bore there. In comparision, a car chase game with just two moving objects, the background scrolling, and the fixed objects being dummy 3D transformed is a simpler task. Even SOTB I's seven layer deep moving cloud scene is relatively simple to draw, compared to Powermonger's much busier scenes. In my best estimation. Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) (12/27/90)
In response to the comment that the rotating is slow. True, but on an
A3000 with the 68030 it's nice and smooth! That and the game plays
AMAZINGLY fast on the A3000. I think that in it's own right shows that
it is a very graphic intensive game...
-Moriland
--
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
"All usual disclaimers apply..." | Founder Of: Evil Young
// | Mutants For A Better Tommorow.
\X/ "Only Amiga Makes It Possible." | hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edudac@prolix.ccadfa.oz.au (Andrew Clayton) (12/27/90)
In article <4425@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, Moriland writes: > In response to the comment that the rotating is slow. True, but on an > A3000 with the 68030 it's nice and smooth! That and the game plays > AMAZINGLY fast on the A3000. I think that in it's own right shows that > it is a very graphic intensive game... Has anyone yet come up with a program that will enable the CACHE and BURST mode on 68030 boards, that SURVIVES a reset? That would be keen. > -Moriland Dac -- _l _ _ // Andrew Clayton. Canberra, Australia. I Post . (_](_l(_ \X/ ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au!prolix!dac . . I am. -------- I cannot send or recieve mail to or from sites outside of Australia.
farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) (12/28/90)
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >Uh, nope. Take a look again at one of the snow or rainstorms and figure out >how many graphic objects you see in motion. Or, count the characters moving >in a single scene, and notice there are too many for them to be sprites, so the >blitter is being continually reprogrammed to restore the background and redraw >the figures. Betcha big bucks they don't use the blitter at all. Remember - Bullfrog is an Atari ST house, and you don't use the blitter on an ST (not if you're interested in compatibility, that is). -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) (12/29/90)
In article <22339@well.sf.ca.us> farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: ^>xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: ^>>Uh, nope. Take a look again at one of the snow or rainstorms and figure out ^>>how many graphic objects you see in motion. Or, count the characters moving ^>>in a single scene, and notice there are too many for them to be sprites, so the ^>>blitter is being continually reprogrammed to restore the background and redraw ^>>the figures. ^> ^>Betcha big bucks they don't use the blitter at all. Remember - Bullfrog is ^>an Atari ST house, and you don't use the blitter on an ST (not if you're ^>interested in compatibility, that is). I'm willing to bet that they did. Take a look at any old Psygnosis game or ANY Seira-Online game and you can see what happens to animation when you don't use the blitter. I think they used it. -Moriland -- _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ "All usual disclaimers apply..." | Founder Of: Evil Young // | Mutants For A Better Tommorow. \X/ "Only Amiga Makes It Possible." | hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu
sysop@tlvx.UUCP (SysOp) (01/03/91)
In article <4458@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) writes: ... > > I'm willing to bet that they did. Take a look at any old Psygnosis > game or ANY Seira-Online game and you can see what happens to > animation when you don't use the blitter. I think they used it. > ... For fast graphics, how about Starglider II? That had an Atari ST version. (No blitter, and I was told that it was as fast as the Amiga version, but I really don't know.) Strange thing, PM wouldn't run on a friend's new A500 with 1 meg of RAM. (He also may have had a new Agnus; I forgot to run a check on his system to find out.) After using "nofast" (the nice utility which reboots the machine with 512K showing in the system), it ran fine. Note that if I didn't happen to have "nofast", we simply wouldn't have been able to run it, since PM has a custom boot-block and takes over the machine; Nofastmem comes with the OS, but of course that won't work. Aggravating! (Especially since the first time I visited I didn't have "nofast" with me. Grr!) Now some game notes: ** Spoilers! ** I agree with the others that you should attack passively when possible, so as to take over men. Some levels, the computer is rather calm, and you can just take maybe 1/2 of the men in each town as troops, leaving the rest there to take care of things because you will probably come back for food, for instance. On other levels, the blue computer player moves very quickly, and overtakes the towns that you've taken over. I noticed that the computer tended to do the same thing every game (but in the same land), so I changed my strategy and burned my bridges behind me, so to speak. In that case, I took all of the men and food, and left nothing for the blue player; when the blue army entered the towns, they had little to claim. It still can be a hard fight after all that. About making ideas, it seems that well-fed troops do this better. When food is short, you have to work at everything. Your army tends to disband as you lose your food! In one land that was short of food, I went so far as to go to passive mode, then "attack" a sheep that was inside of a LARGE settlement. Since the sheep was on the grass, it didn't cause my army to attack the town. (Yes, I just blatantly stole their sheep! I dunno why I didn't think of that earlier.) Anyway, it wasn't all that much, but when food is scarce, that might help you get past a level. I've not gotten the hang of trading or making allies. Luckily, I've been able to get through things fine so far without either option. Maybe in later lands I'll need to resort to these strategies. Anyone get far into the map? I've gotten most of the levels for 5 across and 3 down, or so, and a couple beyond that. Am I doing well? :-) Very addictive game. I had to tell myself that I can't play it at night, because I tend to lose sleep. :-) -- Gary Wolfe, SYSOP of the Temporal Vortex BBS // Amiga! ..uflorida!unf7!tlvx!sysop, unf7!tlvx!sysop@bikini.cis.ufl.edu \X/ Yeah!
tim@medicod.UUCP (Tim Madden) (01/09/91)
In article <455@tlvx.UUCP> sysop@tlvx.UUCP (SysOp) writes: >... >For fast graphics, how about Starglider II? That had an Atari ST version. >(No blitter, and I was told that it was as fast as the Amiga version, but >I really don't know.) I do. I put Starglider II on a 1040 ST and an Amiga 1000 sitting side by side. The ST graphics looked sharper, but the Amiga graphics were faster. I am not really sure they are even using blitter code in this game. >-- >Gary Wolfe, SYSOP of the Temporal Vortex BBS // Amiga! >..uflorida!unf7!tlvx!sysop, unf7!tlvx!sysop@bikini.cis.ufl.edu \X/ Yeah! Tim Madden tim@medicod.UUCP no .sig yet!!!