bryce@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bryce Nesbitt) (02/16/91)
Lemmings has hit USA store shelves. My copy showed up today. The game fully
lives up to the all the promise of the demo. Great gameplay, graphics, sound,
characterization, and did I mention the gameplay? A classic. Will be enjoyed
for years to come. One player mode is fantastic, two player mode is even more
satisfying.
The game is fully compatible with Amiga Kickstart 2.0 & the Amiga 3000. Also
works on A500 and A2500 systems. Psygnosis did things right. Run (don't walk)
to your local software store.
--
|\_/| . "ACK!, NAK!, EOT!, SOH!" "Lawyers: America's untapped export market."
{X o} . Bryce Nesbitt, Operating Systems Group, Commodore-Amiga, Inc.
(") BIX: bnesbitt "Have you saved a Lemming today?"
U USENET: bryce@commodore.COM -or- uunet!cbmvax!brycexanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (02/17/91)
bryce@cbmvax.UUCP (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: > Lemmings has hit USA store shelves. My copy showed up today. The game > fully lives up to the all the promise of the demo. Great gameplay, > graphics, sound, characterization, and did I mention the gameplay? A > classic. Will be enjoyed for years to come. One player mode is > fantastic, two player mode is even more satisfying. > The game is fully compatible with Amiga Kickstart 2.0 & the Amiga > 3000. Also works on A500 and A2500 systems. Psygnosis did things ^^^^^^^^^ > right. Run (don't walk) to your local software store. Sure, right after I find out everyone is installing it on their hard disks, and it isn't under a key disk protection scheme either. Until then, just another big chance to waste money on Psygnosis Dreck(tm). No, thanks. Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
cmw1725@tamsun.tamu.edu (Christopher Walton) (02/17/91)
In article <1991Feb16.193252.20795@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: ... >Sure, right after I find out everyone is installing it on their hard >disks, and it isn't under a key disk protection scheme either. Until >then, just another big chance to waste money on Psygnosis Dreck(tm). > >No, thanks. You are missing out... When will people realize that hard disk installation is not everything... You have to give up some things for a great game. The game is not diskintensive, and does not lag long enough to warrant a boy- cott of its sale. You have to realize that most of psygnosis` games are VERY large (over 2 megs), and if one was to make it hard drive installable most likely it would have to be in DOS format, which means 3 or more disks, and lots of disk swapping, which everyone hates as well... You have to give a little to get a little, don't forget... If you are content to playing the same old, same old, then fine, but I would say that you are going to miss out on a lot in the long run... Christopher Walton cmw1725@tamsun.tamu.edu
bryce@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bryce Nesbitt) (02/17/91)
In article <> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > >> Ok with 2.0 on the >> 3000. Also works on A500 and A2500 systems. Psygnosis did things > ^^^^^^^^^ >Sure, right after I find out everyone is installing it on their hard >disks, and it isn't under a key disk protection scheme either. Until >then, just another big chance to waste money on Psygnosis Dreck(tm). Once a thief, always a thief? Past Psygnosis products are infamous for certain problems; timing so close to the edge they won't load on all machines, 68030 incompatible, unreliable copy protection, etc. Lemmings is copy protected, and does use custom disk loaders. Those loaders, however, show none of the traditional Psygnosis problems. Lemmings works fine on all the machines here, including the top and bottom end of the product line, under all revisions of the OS, and even on a floppy drive that is sensitive to step rate (and breaks other games). -- |\_/| . "ACK!, NAK!, EOT!, SOH!" "Lawyers: America's untapped export market." {X o} . Bryce Nesbitt, Operating Systems Group, Commodore-Amiga, Inc. (") BIX: bnesbitt "Have you saved a Lemming today?" U USENET: bryce@commodore.COM -or- uunet!cbmvax!bryce
hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Adam Hill) (02/17/91)
In article <1991Feb16.193252.20795@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > > bryce@cbmvax.UUCP (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: > >> The game is fully compatible with Amiga Kickstart 2.0 & the Amiga >> 3000. Also works on A500 and A2500 systems. Psygnosis did things > ^^^^^^^^^ >> right. Run (don't walk) to your local software store. > >Sure, right after I find out everyone is installing it on their hard >disks, and it isn't under a key disk protection scheme either. Until >then, just another big chance to waste money on Psygnosis Dreck(tm). > >No, thanks. Kent -- YOU ARE WRONG (TM). (Or at least strongly opinionated.) :-) While it will not install on a HD. It will: o Run on 500's to 3000's o Run under 1.3 or 2.0x o Detect and use expansion RAM It is an utterly hilarious and often VERY difficult to play. Example, first room on the MAYHEM level - "Metal Works". Lemming are released from a door that is too high. Result -- Instant SPLAT!!! Psygnosis IS learning.... I wonder if one could use FMS by Matt Dillon and copy the disks to there... Nahh. Too easy. I agree.. RUN do not WALK. Knock down people that are in your way :-) It IS worth it. >Kent, the man from xanth. ><xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> -- adam hill -- hill@evax.uta.edu I programmed for three days Make Up Your Own Mind.. AMIGA! And heard no human voices. Amiga... Multimedia NOW! But the hard disk sang. - TZoP Born To Run SVR4
dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan) (02/17/91)
In article <12274@helios.TAMU.EDU> cmw1725@tamsun.tamu.edu (Christopher Walton) writes: |You are missing out... When will people realize that hard disk installation |is not everything... You have to give up some things for a great game. You're right, of course. Lack of copy protection and compatability with ALL accellerated Amigas are equally important. |The game is not diskintensive, and does not lag long enough to warrant a boy- |cott of its sale. You have to realize that most of psygnosis` games are |VERY large (over 2 megs), and if one was to make it hard drive installable |most likely it would have to be in DOS format, which means 3 or more disks, |and lots of disk swapping, which everyone hates as well... You have to Unless, of course, you have a hard drive. |give a little to get a little, don't forget... If you are content to playing |the same old, same old, then fine, but I would say that you are going to miss |out on a lot in the long run... I *could* attach a switch to my GVP accellerator so I could reboot with the 68000 active, but I fail to see why I should TURN OFF something I paid a thousand bucks for just because some twits can't write proper software. Psygnosis and their brethren expect you to use your Amiga like a Nintendo. I was under the impression that I gave up rebooting for each application with my C64. If they want my money, let them support my hardware AND its OS. Otherwise, to hell with them. I've GOT a Nintendo, and I may yet pick up a Genesis, and there's always the arcade down the street. dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of everything...haven't you learned; if it's not happenning to me it's not important?" -Murphy Brown
martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Daniel Martin) (02/18/91)
In article <12274@helios.TAMU.EDU> cmw1725@tamsun.tamu.edu (Christopher Walton) writes: >In article <1991Feb16.193252.20795@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >... >>Sure, right after I find out everyone is installing it on their hard >>disks, and it isn't under a key disk protection scheme either. Until >>then, just another big chance to waste money on Psygnosis Dreck(tm). >> >>No, thanks. > >You are missing out... When will people realize that hard disk installation >is not everything... You have to give up some things for a great game. >The game is not diskintensive, and does not lag long enough to warrant a boy- >cott of its sale. You have to realize that most of psygnosis` games are >VERY large (over 2 megs), and if one was to make it hard drive installable >most likely it would have to be in DOS format, which means 3 or more disks, >and lots of disk swapping, which everyone hates as well... You have to >give a little to get a little, don't forget... If you are content to playing >the same old, same old, then fine, but I would say that you are going to miss >out on a lot in the long run... >Christopher Walton I don't get this. Why does the compression on the original disks prevents it's HD installation? If you use a standard file approach, like in Lucasfilm games, you just assign all disk volume to the same HD path, and it's transparent to the program. All those file can be compressed, rehased, vaporized as you wish. I heard you say 'yeah but files structure takes place'. Yup. If every inch is needed you just copy all logical sector of the disk (whatever method they use on their game) in a file on your HD, for each game disk. Then you need a simple little routine that converts logical sector access to seek in this HD file. Perhaps it's a little to complicated for game makers? No really. They just want to preserve their super dooper floppy disk protection routine, that plays music out of my drive. Daniel. -- // Daniel Martin Universite de Montreal \\ // MediaLab, ca vous regarde! C.P. 6128, Succursale A, \\ \\// Mail: martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA Montreal (Quebec), CANADA, \\// \/ Tel.: (514) 343-6111 poste 3494 H3C 3J7 \/
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (02/18/91)
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > >> Ok with 2.0 on the >> 3000. Also works on A500 and A2500 systems. Psygnosis did things > ^^^^^^^^^ >Sure, right after I find out everyone is installing it on their hard >disks, and it isn't under a key disk protection scheme either. Until >then, just another big chance to waste money on Psygnosis Dreck(tm). bryce@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: > Once a thief, always a thief? No, and you're being insulting. I have over three dozen bought and paid for Amiga games on my hard drive, and probably twice that many that have copy protection that keeps them off the hard drive. The latter set NEVER get played by me; finding them in this mess is too much like housework (which I don't do either). I have no need for games that won't install on a hard drive, since I find them to be never played and so a waste of money. > Past Psygnosis products are infamous for certain problems; timing so > close to the edge they won't load on all machines, 68030 incompatible, > unreliable copy protection, etc. Psygnosis has a well earned reputation for copy protection schemes that beat floppy drives to death, and then won't work because the drive is out of exact adjustment. More than that, all that high speed head motion is hard on the disk medium, and Psygnosis game disks become unreadable depressingly early and often. > Lemmings is copy protected, and does use custom disk loaders. Those > loaders, however, show none of the traditional Psygnosis problems. > Lemmings works fine on all the machines here, including the top and > bottom end of the product line, under all revisions of the OS, and > even on a floppy drive that is sensitive to step rate (and breaks > other games). Not nearly good enough. I feel just as insulted when Psygnosis implies that I'm a thief, as I do when you do the same. This is all the customer base they've got. Insult us, we go away, at least the sensible ones of us do. Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
bryce@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bryce Nesbitt) (02/18/91)
In article <> bryce@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >In article <> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >> >>> Also works on A500 and A2500 systems. Psygnosis did things right... >> ^^^^^^^^^ >>Sure, right after I find out everyone is installing it on their hard >>disks, and it isn't under a key disk protection scheme either. Until >>then, just another big chance to waste money on Psygnosis Dreck(tm). > >Once a thief, always a thief? Past Psygnosis products are infamous... >...[Lemmings] shows none of the traditional Psygnosis problems. I received complaints that I should not call Mr. Dolan a "thief". Please read the above more carefully; that is not the intent of the sentence. For those of you unfamiliar with colloquial English: The expression "Once a thief, always a thief" could also be stated "a person who has stolen can never be trusted again". The sentence refers to Psygnosis; because past products had problems, can the current product be trusted? I said they could. Kent, several times burned, was expressing doubt. -- |\_/| . "ACK!, NAK!, EOT!, SOH!" "Lawyers: America's untapped export market." {X o} . Bryce Nesbitt, Operating Systems Group, Commodore-Amiga, Inc. (") BIX: bnesbitt "Have you saved a Lemming today?" U USENET: bryce@commodore.COM -or- uunet!cbmvax!bryce
colas@lemur.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) (02/18/91)
Just two little points: 1) There is a lemmings demo, so you can try before you buy (I can upload it to abc if nobody else in the US have done it before) 2) psygnosis is an editor, not a programmer team. People who did lemmings have nothing to do with the rest of Psygnosis games. the only thing psygnosis is responsible for is the copy-protection and custom disk loader, (and it's shit, Ok.). But the playability and interest of game have nothing to do with previous psygnosis games. -- Colas Nahaboo, colas@sa.inria.fr, Bull Research, Koala Project, GWM X11 WM Phone:(33) 93.65.77.70(.66 Fax), INRIA, B.P.109 - 06561 Valbonne Cedex, FRANCE.
johnhlee@viola.cs.cornell.edu (John H. Lee) (02/19/91)
In article <1991Feb18.051008.11300@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: [...] > bryce@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: > >> Once a thief, always a thief? > >No, and you're being insulting. I have over three dozen bought and paid >for Amiga games on my hard drive, and probably twice that many that have >copy protection that keeps them off the hard drive. The latter set NEVER Errr...Bryce wasn't referring to you, Kent. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The DiskDoctor threatens the crew! Next time on AmigaDos: The Next Generation. John Lee Internet: johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu The above opinions of those of the user, and not of this machine.
mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) (02/19/91)
> |most likely it would have to be in DOS format, which means 3 or more disks, > |and lots of disk swapping, which everyone hates as well... You have to > Unless, of course, you have a hard drive. Ummmmm... I think he meant that for people WITHOUT a harddrive it would be a very large pain. Imagine playing a 2-disk adventure game on a one-drive system. Just as bad as three disks on a 2 drive system. > Psygnosis and their brethren expect you to use your Amiga like a Nintendo. > I was under the impression that I gave up rebooting for each application with I was under the impression that Psygnosis just wanted to make the best games which, IMHO, they continue to do. Not to mention that making something that compatible would mean instant piracy and no revenue for the company. > my C64. If they want my money, let them support my hardware AND its OS. > Otherwise, to hell with them. I've GOT a Nintendo, and I may yet pick up a > Genesis, and there's always the arcade down the street. What I can never understand is this: if people pay "thousands" so that they can have a great accelerated system, why don't they ever whine about why the accelerators can't be turned off by software? Heck, even the Apple II GS would allow turning the accelerators off from within the system... and lastly, if you don't feel like rebooting (oh, no!), don't. And miss out. -- ___________________________________/V\ofo______________________________________ "Hey! Wooly's gone apeshit, man!" -Dawn Of The Dead mofo@bucsf.bu.edu 1039 Comm Ave #24, Boston, MA 02215 Jason Kekoa Greene, Boston Schmoo-niversity. Class of Ninety-something? I'll tell you what my major is when my vacation ends. ____________________________The Psychic Gorilla________________________________
rwkay@cs.hw.ac.uk (R.W.Kay) (02/19/91)
-- Hello, As you can all see from my .sig, I'm one of the programmers of Lemmings (albeit on a PC, but this is for a sin I commited long ago, my heart lies in the Amiga community). I can simply state that Lemmings would be HD installable, if it wasn't for the fact that it would be too easy too copy if it was AMIGADOS'd in any way. I've now got my flame proof clothing on, this is the Psygnosis party line, and we at DMA Design have to toe it like it or not. Flame me if you want. If you will not by Lemmings just because it is not HD installable, then you are missing out on a good game, that is not disk intensive, uses all available RAM (if >512k then it caches the levels in high memory) and uses an extra drive if present. I hope you enjoy it!!!! Russell P.S. In case you're wondering PC Lemmings is HD installable, but requires a key disk, again to prevent pirates. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Russell Kay (rwkay@uk.ac.hw.cs) Programmer of PC Menace ) all PC Ballistix ) released PC Lemmings )by Psygnosis
dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan) (02/19/91)
In article <MOFO.91Feb19033359@bucsf.bu.edu> mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes: | |> |most likely it would have to be in DOS format, which means 3 or more disks, |> |and lots of disk swapping, which everyone hates as well... You have to | |> Unless, of course, you have a hard drive. | | Ummmmm... I think he meant that for people WITHOUT a harddrive it would |be a very large pain. Imagine playing a 2-disk adventure game on a |one-drive system. Just as bad as three disks on a 2 drive system. So go buy a hard drive. Or a second floppy, if you can't afford a hard drive. At the moment, I don't have a hard drive, but I don't expect the rest of the world to warp itself so I won't have to live with an inconvenience. | |> Psygnosis and their brethren expect you to use your Amiga like a Nintendo. |> I was under the impression that I gave up rebooting for each application with | | I was under the impression that Psygnosis just wanted to make the best |games which, IMHO, they continue to do. Not to mention that making |something that compatible would mean instant piracy and no revenue for the |company. Hey, whaddya need? I'm not a pirate, but I know people who are. I can get my hands on any of this stuff. Same ol' story; there has to be some way of getting the program off the disk and into the computer, and that means it can be cracked. | |> my C64. If they want my money, let them support my hardware AND its OS. |> Otherwise, to hell with them. I've GOT a Nintendo, and I may yet pick up a |> Genesis, and there's always the arcade down the street. | | What I can never understand is this: if people pay "thousands" so that |they can have a great accelerated system, why don't they ever whine about |why the accelerators can't be turned off by software? BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO TURN THEM OFF!!!!! I didn't buy a 68030 board because I wanted to turn it off and not use it! | |and lastly, if you don't feel like rebooting (oh, no!), don't. | |And miss out. On what? I don't need Lemmings to live. There are enough games out there that will run on my machine that I don't feel "deprived"; plus I've got a Nintendo. And in any case, the best games *I've* ever played don't run on computers and have human beings on the other side of the board. dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of everything...haven't you learned; if it's not happenning to me it's not important?" -Murphy Brown
cosell@bbn.com (Bernie Cosell) (02/20/91)
rwkay@cs.hw.ac.uk (R.W.Kay) writes: }... I can }simply state that Lemmings would be HD installable, if it wasn't for the }fact that it would }be too easy too copy if it was AMIGADOS'd in any way. ... }P.S. In case you're wondering PC Lemmings is HD installable, but }requires a key disk, again }to prevent pirates. I don't understand. What is it about the Amiga market that makes non-installable the option of choice, but key-disk the one for the IBM market? Why not at least make an HDable/keydisk version for the Amiga, too? Are we _such_ clever theives??? [on the other hand, the HD-decision is actually fine by me, since this game seems destined for my wife's 386 instead of my 2000.] As a side note, when will the IBM version be out [or is it already?, although I haven't see it anywhere yet]. /Bernie\
pashdown@javelin.es.com (Pete Ashdown) (02/20/91)
rwkay@cs.hw.ac.uk (R.W.Kay) writes: >P.S. In case you're wondering PC Lemmings is HD installable, but >requires a key disk, again >to prevent pirates. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Notify your bosses that none of your protection schemes to date have done anything to protect against piracy. They've cracked every one and will continue to do so. Thus the only people you are annoying are your legitimate users. -- "If the real Jesus Christ were to stand up today He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA" - The The Pete Ashdown pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com ...uunet!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown
jimmy@uhunix1.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Jimmy Chan) (02/20/91)
In article <2323@odin.cs.hw.ac.uk` rwkay@cs.hw.ac.uk (R.W.Kay) writes:
`Hello,
`
`As you can all see from my .sig, I'm one of the programmers of Lemmings
`(albeit on a PC,
`but this is for a sin I commited long ago, my heart lies in the Amiga
`community). I can
`simply state that Lemmings would be HD installable, if it wasn't for the
`fact that it would
`be too easy too copy if it was AMIGADOS'd in any way.
`
`I've now got my flame proof clothing on, this is the Psygnosis party
`line, and we at
`DMA Design have to toe it like it or not. Flame me if you want.
Not a flame but more of a note to express disappointment. I still rather
have games that are harddisk installable using a word look up in the manual
protection than having a key disk to protect it. Can't say I really blame
programmers for their choices of protection as that is what they feel is
the best for their financial security but then I have to judge with my
finances then I am sorry to say I don't have the money to spend on
games that resort to disk protection. I guess I will mostly stick with
SSI and others that do support harddrives with only manual lookup for
copy protection. mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) (02/20/91)
I know this subject has been beat to death but I still don't understand why psygnosis thinks that non-amiga dos format is going to stop piracy. It seems especially silly for the US version. I have heard that almost any European game, especially ones by psygnosis, are available on pirate boards in the US before the commercial version has even been released here. And since it seems that time and time again people post here about the illegal versions working on more systems and being hd-installable as well as less harsh on ones disk drive, I really fail to understand psygnosis' feelings that harsh copy protection is going to help their sales when the pirate version is actually better. I do not condone piracy, but I am trying to point out an inconsistancy in the logic of software companies, in not viewing things from the point of the user. On a side note: The prevalence of people viewing things from only one side is disturbing. IE The people in power feel that drugs are a bad thing and therefore we must make them illegal. This however drives the prices up. Now suppose we have a person that tries heroin, and decides he really likes it, in fact, he becomes an addict. However, since drugs are illegal and their prices are high, he has to steal to support his habit. Now most people would agree that theft is an unacceptable means of supporting a heroin habit, so therefore the addict is a bad person and should be punished. They fail to look at it from the side of the addict. He has to support his habit, just as you or I have to eat, and his drive to obtain his drug is probably stronger than most urges a non-addict feels. Therefore does he have a choice if theft is the only means of supporting his habit. However, this has a bad side effect of causing harm and anguish to the innocent people from whom he steals. I feel that if you look at both sides, the side of the person being robbed as well as the side of the addict you will see that there needs to be a solution that falls somewhere between punishment of the addict and the theft of property/money from innocent people. The solution should be one in which neither is harmed. It would be wonderful if the addict could quit, and he may very well want to, but might not be able to. Therefore, we should try to help him quit or offer another out other than theft. Much in the same way, the software companies see software theft as harmful as it very well is. The thief is harming their company as well as other users who follow the law. This may not seem the same as the case of the heorin addict but let me add one little twist, suppose that heorin was legal, like software, but its price was so high that some people could afford it while others could not. Hmm, now the picture becomes clearer. Therefore we need a solution in the middle, one where neither the software companies, the legitimate users, nor the people pirating software are hurt. We need to find a way so people who pay for software do not get crippled versions (nor perfectly working versions that have any annoyances related to copy protection) and people do not copy software. I admit that coming up with a solution that is in the middle will require a lot of work and I can not think of one right off the top of my head, however, copy protection is not the way though. Closing thought: +-> many people who would buy games that are otherwise wonderful are not doing | so SOLELY because of the copy protection ----> which means that fewer copies | are sold ----> higher prices and better pirate versions ----> more | piracy ----> more copy protection so --+ | | +--------------------------------------------+ COME ON COMPANIES, lets break this cycle. -- Richard McGowen "Men can't deal with commitment. They're afraid they'll get married and then meet the woman of their dreams at the reception." --Carrie Snow
bleys@tronsbox.xei.com (Bill Cavanaugh) (02/20/91)
In article <MOFO.91Feb19033359@bucsf.bu.edu> mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes: > > I was under the impression that Psygnosis just wanted to make the best >games which, IMHO, they continue to do. Not to mention that making >something that compatible would mean instant piracy and no revenue for the >company. > I don't know quite how to break this to you, but there were pirated versions of the release, two-disk set floating around over a week ago. I actually saw one with my own eyes, and it was on the horrid, drive-killing, copy-preventing Psygnosis DOS. There's already instant piracy, and all that proprietary DOS is doing is preventing some of us from buying the games. -- * Bill Cavanaugh uunet!tronsbox!bleys *
bleys@tronsbox.xei.com (Bill Cavanaugh) (02/20/91)
In article <2323@odin.cs.hw.ac.uk> rwkay@cs.hw.ac.uk (R.W.Kay) writes: >-- >Hello, > Hello. Nice to see you here! [stuff deleted] >fact that it would >be too easy too copy if it was AMIGADOS'd in any way. > >I've now got my flame proof clothing on, this is the Psygnosis party >line, and we at >DMA Design have to toe it like it or not. Flame me if you want. > See below for comments. >I hope you enjoy it!!!! > If the game is as good as the demo was, I will, when I get the chance to play it, after I find a store that has it! >P.S. In case you're wondering PC Lemmings is HD installable, but >requires a key disk, again >to prevent pirates. > Now, on to the main subject. As I said in another posting, I've already been offered a pirated version of this game. That offer came the same evening Bryce posted about its availability. I STILL haven't seen it in a store. No copy protection scheme is going to stop pirates. Some, however, DO stop sales. >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Russell Kay (rwkay@uk.ac.hw.cs) Programmer of PC Menace ) all > PC Ballistix ) released > PC Lemmings )by Psygnosis -- * Bill Cavanaugh uunet!tronsbox!bleys *
bryce@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bryce Nesbitt) (02/20/91)
>+-> many people who would buy games that are otherwise wonderful are not doing >| so SOLELY because of the copy protection ----> which means that fewer copies >| are sold ----> higher prices and better pirate versions ----> more >| piracy ----> more copy protection so --+ >| | >+--------------------------------------------+ > >COME ON COMPANIES, lets break this cycle. Sometimes I just buy the real copy-protected version. Then, if the copy- protection becomes a problem, I obtain a deprotected version of the same product or crack it for personal use. A bit strange, but it works. I hate the keyword-on-the-unreadable-paper programs the most. Too bad the legitimate purchaser is the most inconvenienced by protection. Some people seem to miss one major point of copy protection on games; a benefit for the publishers is not prevention of piracy, rather simple delay. They hope to get the bulk of sales before the pirates have widely spread the product. I really hate to see products pirated well before the initial availablility; give 'em a chance. -- |\_/| . "ACK!, NAK!, EOT!, SOH!" "Lawyers: America's untapped export market." {X o} . Bryce Nesbitt, Operating Systems Group, Commodore-Amiga, Inc. (") BIX: bnesbitt "Have you saved a Lemming today?" U USENET: bryce@commodore.COM -or- uunet!cbmvax!bryce
cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) (02/20/91)
> P.S. In case you're wondering PC Lemmings is HD installable, but > requires a key disk, again > to prevent pirates. That, my friend, is the straw that broke the... (and boy does it piss me off. And will it ever get me started...) I was going to buy Lemmings, but when I read crap like this it makes me wonder. The PC version is HD installable, but the Amiga version is not - what a load of crap! Hell, I'll go one step farther, it sounds like Lemmings is the type of game that could multitask... Does it? No, because I don't think you guys would know how to make a game that would! You are just backwards programmers that only know how to throw away the OS and talk directly to the hardware... What a pathetic bunch... I challenge DMA design to make a game, like Lemmings, that multitasks properly on the Amiga, I don't think you can. For christ's sake, the damn game has already been broken and has been on pirate BBS's for three weeks (PC and Amiga version). When you piss off the people who do buy your games (and I have bought quite a few of them...), they stop supporting you. You have pissed me off. Don't you guys understand, the people who aren't going to pay for your product will find a way to crack it. The people that will buy your product will (and will be more willing) if the product operates like they like. Hell I've seen cracked versions of some floppy only games that were HD installable, it makes one want to just use the cracked version and say fuck the company that releases crap this is not HD installable in the first place. I truely hope this happens to Lemmings, it would serve you right! Loren J. Rittle I'm not going to buy Lemmings anymore. As a matter of fact and principle, I will not buy another Psygnosis title. Not till Psygnosis starts making games that are HD installable. Use a god damn look up the word in the manual, if you're that paranoid! (Starting to wish you had not ever posted a message in the first place?) -- ``NewTek stated that the Toaster *would not* be made to directly support the Mac, at this point Sculley stormed out of the booth...'' -A scene at the recent MacExpo. Gee, you wouldn't think that an Apple Exec would be so worried about one little Amiga Device... Loren J. Rittle l-rittle@uiuc.edu
jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) (02/20/91)
In article <2323@odin.cs.hw.ac.uk> rwkay@cs.hw.ac.uk (R.W.Kay) writes: >simply state that Lemmings would be HD installable, if it wasn't for the >fact that it would >be too easy too copy if it was AMIGADOS'd in any way. I'm certain the pirates can copy it. It's a war of escalation, and you can never get ahead for long, and while you do this you annoy your legitimate customers. I understand that the piracy problem is worse in europe (for a number of reasons): I think that the european SW companies should try hard to educate the buying public. Explain to them that they're hurting themselves, and have much to gain from abstaining. Part of the problem is cultural: work to change the culture (and not just adversarily: band together and find ways to positively encourage pirates to change). Part of the problem is the average age of the owners (not much one can do about that except hope they grow up). Etc. The pirates crack the game anyways, though it may take them a week or two. Even if it takes them time, they aren't going to buy (much) software when they know they can get it from their friends in a week or two, so you don't lose many sales to them. The only sales you might lose are the sales to people who (a) normally would pirate it but HAVE to have it before it's cracked, and (b) some casual pirates who don't regularily collect pirated disks but might copy one if it were unprotected. >If you will not by Lemmings just because it is not HD installable, then >you are missing >out on a good game, that is not disk intensive, uses all available RAM >(if >512k then >it caches the levels in high memory) and uses an extra drive if present. It is a good game, but I guarantee you it would load faster from my HD... >P.S. In case you're wondering PC Lemmings is HD installable, but >requires a key disk, again >to prevent pirates. Things like this annoy the h*ll out of me: Key disks I can semi-live with (at least I can load off the harddisk, but they DO go bad, like my shanghai disk did, and others). I prefer word-from-the-manual to keydisks, and I prefer trust to that. -- Randell Jesup, Keeper of AmigaDos, Commodore Engineering. {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com BIX: rjesup The compiler runs Like a swift-flowing river I wait in silence. (From "The Zen of Programming") ;-)
cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) (02/20/91)
In article <62819@bbn.BBN.COM> cosell@bbn.com (Bernie Cosell) writes: >rwkay@cs.hw.ac.uk (R.W.Kay) writes: > >}... I can >}simply state that Lemmings would be HD installable, if it wasn't for the >}fact that it would >}be too easy too copy if it was AMIGADOS'd in any way. > >... > >}P.S. In case you're wondering PC Lemmings is HD installable, but >}requires a key disk, again >}to prevent pirates. > >I don't understand. What is it about the Amiga market that makes >non-installable the option of choice, but key-disk the one for the IBM >market? Why not at least make an HDable/keydisk version for the Amiga, >too? Are we _such_ clever theives??? [on the other hand, the >HD-decision is actually fine by me, since this game seems destined for >my wife's 386 instead of my 2000.] > >As a side note, when will the IBM version be out [or is it already?, >although I haven't see it anywhere yet]. > > /Bernie\ No! it is the fact that PC owners will not put up with companies that flagrantly disregard the desires of said owners to put the games on HD's. I guess Amiga owners have not stood up for their rights yet! Plus, up until quite recently, not many Amiga owners had HD's. This has changed - game makers better reassess the situation or they will lose sales. Mine at least... Loren J. Rittle -- ``NewTek stated that the Toaster *would not* be made to directly support the Mac, at this point Sculley stormed out of the booth...'' -A scene at the recent MacExpo. Gee, you wouldn't think that an Apple Exec would be so worried about one little Amiga Device... Loren J. Rittle l-rittle@uiuc.edu
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) (02/20/91)
I have to agree with all the statements against disk based copy protection. The only copy protection that I have heard of that even SLOWED the pirates down was the one on Populous and that protection as never been used on any other game I have heard of. I have some friends who are in the Pirate community and although I neither condone, nor practise piracy myself, I have accepted cracked versions of software I already bought. (leave the morality flames in the can on this one. I bought it to begin with so any morality lessons will fall on deaf ears) Why? Because, as is often stated on here, the cracked versions are often quite better than the original. HD Installable in many cases, no annoying and damaging disk groinking, faster load times, etc, etc etc. I have, in the past, been offered software by my friends that I had not purchased yet that I turned down. Many of those titles are UK titles that haven't even APPEARED in the states yet. They have cracked them and even NTSC FIXED them before they even hit the shoreline! Your copy-protection schemes must REALLY be worth the effort when the pirates can get the copies in NTSC format to the states before you can. Just last week I was offered a release version of Lemmings in NTSC which I turned down as I haven't bought it yet. I don't even think Lemmings is out in the states yet, is it? Software makers should think about these facts before devoting all that effort to protection. Nothing you guys have done has slowed down release into the pirate community at all yet. The only people you are hurting are the legitimate consumers such as myself who can't install the software on the HD, etc. I would like to have 95% of my software HD Installable. Thats why I Frickin' BOUGHT the hard drive! Even a KEY disk method would be preferable to not being able to HD install at all! Manual Password Protection would be the prefered method as long as it only asked ONCE at boot up. I won't get into the arguments on whether it should take over the machine and rape the OS and whatever else, those issues don't bother me as much as lack of HD installability and heavy protection screwing up my floppies. Please, do us all a favor and show this post, and others like it, to the powers that be in your company. -Moriland -- | hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu | __ | | | __/// Viva Amiga! | | Founder Of: Evil Young | \XX/ | | Mutants For A Better Tomorrow | "Single Tasking: JUST SAY NO!" |
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) (02/21/91)
In article <1991Feb20.064217.26621@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) writes: }> P.S. In case you're wondering PC Lemmings is HD installable, but }> requires a key disk, again }> to prevent pirates. } }That, my friend, is the straw that broke the... (and boy does it piss }me off. And will it ever get me started...) } }I was going to buy Lemmings, but when I read crap like this it }makes me wonder. The PC version is HD installable, but the }Amiga version is not - what a load of crap! } }Hell, I'll go one step farther, it sounds like Lemmings is the }type of game that could multitask... Does it? No, because I don't }think you guys would know how to make a game that would! You are }just backwards programmers that only know how to throw away the OS }and talk directly to the hardware... What a pathetic bunch... }I challenge DMA design to make a game, like Lemmings, that multitasks }properly on the Amiga, I don't think you can. } }For christ's sake, the damn game has already been broken and has been }on pirate BBS's for three weeks (PC and Amiga version). When you }piss off the people who do buy your games (and I have bought quite }a few of them...), they stop supporting you. You have pissed me off. } }Don't you guys understand, the people who aren't going to pay }for your product will find a way to crack it. The people that }will buy your product will (and will be more willing) if the }product operates like they like. Hell I've seen cracked versions }of some floppy only games that were HD installable, it makes one }want to just use the cracked version and say fuck the company }that releases crap this is not HD installable in the first place. }I truely hope this happens to Lemmings, it would serve you right! } }Loren J. Rittle }I'm not going to buy Lemmings anymore. As a matter of fact and }principle, I will not buy another Psygnosis title. Not till Psygnosis }starts making games that are HD installable. Use a god damn look up the }word in the manual, if you're that paranoid! (Starting to wish you had }not ever posted a message in the first place?) I'm afraid that I have to agree wth everything you've just said. I don't think I will purchase it either. Good game or not. Perhaps when it ends up in the bargin bin for $5.00 or so I'll consider it. I plan to start boycotting game makers who do not support at LEAST HD installability. I have enough things I can be using my Amiga for that losing a few good games won't hamper the enjoyment of my machine. I can always devote that time to working on bigger and better Imagine Animations. (Hey! You can even put Imagine on a HD!) Could you imagine the uproar that would be heard if Imagine was heavily protected? If anything, business software and the like is probably pirated more often than Games because folks are unwilling to fork out the large $$$ to get the good Business software. (Word Perfect has got to be one of the most Office Pirated bits of software I have seen) Despite all that, they rarely have any protection of any kind. The fact that they haven't gone bellyup would seem to weaken the Game Maker's argument that protection is vital and necessary. --Moriland -- | hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu | __ | | | __/// Viva Amiga! | | Founder Of: Evil Young | \XX/ | | Mutants For A Better Tomorrow | "Single Tasking: JUST SAY NO!" |
jmurphy@pnet01.cts.com (Jason Murphy) (02/21/91)
If a pirate wants a game and it has copy protection on it, he is not going to buy the game because it has the protectipon on it! He is going to wait untill someone cracks it. Even if the copy-protection is there to slow down piracy, it still is not going to work, because the pirate will wait a week or 2. Then he calls up his local pirate BBS and downloads that programs and saves 40 bucks! And EVEN GETS IT WITH OUT THE PROTECTION AND HD-INSTALLABLE. Jason Murphy San Diego, Ca bryce@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bryce Nesbitt) writes: >>+-> many people who would buy games that are otherwise wonderful are not doing >>| so SOLELY because of the copy protection ----> which means that fewer copies >>| are sold ----> higher prices and better pirate versions ----> more >>| piracy ----> more copy protection so --+ >>| | >>+--------------------------------------------+ >> >>COME ON COMPANIES, lets break this cycle. > > >Sometimes I just buy the real copy-protected version. Then, if the copy- >protection becomes a problem, I obtain a deprotected version of the same >product or crack it for personal use. A bit strange, but it works. > >I hate the keyword-on-the-unreadable-paper programs the most. Too bad the >legitimate purchaser is the most inconvenienced by protection. > >Some people seem to miss one major point of copy protection on games; a >benefit for the publishers is not prevention of piracy, rather simple delay. >They hope to get the bulk of sales before the pirates have widely spread the >product. I really hate to see products pirated well before the initial >availablility; give 'em a chance. > > >-- >|\_/| . "ACK!, NAK!, EOT!, SOH!" "Lawyers: America's untapped export market." >{X o} . Bryce Nesbitt, Operating Systems Group, Commodore-Amiga, Inc. > (") BIX: bnesbitt "Have you saved a Lemming today?" > U USENET: bryce@commodore.COM -or- uunet!cbmvax!bryce UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd ucsd nosc}!crash!pnet01!jmurphy ARPA: crash!pnet01!jmurphy@nosc.mil INET: jmurphy@pnet01.cts.com
crichard@eecs.wsu.edu (richardson craig s - CS500) (02/21/91)
In article <1991Feb20.131134.22875@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> fmcphers@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (frank mcpherson) writes: > >Being forced to load a game from a floppy is also incredibly annoying to me. >I've got an A3000 with a bit of HD space, and I'd very much like to use it for >what *I* like to use my computer for, which includes games. I don't have any >Psygnosis games, but unfortunately, I do own powermonger. I am seriosly >considering writing letters to the distributors of several games, asking >them to re-think their policies concerning copy protection. I would like to add one more "me too" to the pile of HD-supporting posts... I have had a HD for my 500 (don't look at me that way, it's not nice) for a couple of years, and prefer that it not sit around gathering dust while I use a game that the programmer or distributor chose to make non-HD-installable. Unlike most people, I don't mind manual-based copy protection at all (unless it's on non-xeroxable paper. Feh.). I can live with key disks. What I can not live with, and refuse to from now on, is software that will not recognize the difference between my system and the "average" system that they develop for. Their policy is, IMHO, against the Amiga philosophy (there he goes, getting all Zen on us again...). There are quite a number of us out here who feel strongly on this issue. If we could get together, maybe we could make some of the companies understand that we exist... --Craig (the one who rambles on and on and on and on and on and on and on...) -- One should forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged. -Heinrich Heine
fmcphers@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (frank mcpherson) (02/21/91)
| There are quite a number of us out here who feel strongly on this issue. If | we could get together, maybe we could make some of the companies understand | that we exist... | | --Craig (the one who rambles on and on and on and on and on and on and on...) Sounds like an excellent project to me. Maybe we could come up with a download-then-print-then-mail letter, along with a list of companies to send the thing to. How do you think they'd take it if all the letters were the same? I think we'd be able to get more of them sent in that way; the senders would have less work to do, so they'd be more likely to actually mail it. I myself am inclined to write my own letters of complaint, but I realize that not everyone will do that. Anyone else interesting in participating in something like this? (BTW - I didn't look at you funny about your A500 with HD. My OTHER machine is an A1000 w/ only 2 floppies. (a good friend is making good use of it right now, which is fine with me)) -- -- Frank McPherson INTERNET: emcphers@fox.cs.vt.edu --
rouaix@margaux.inria.fr (Francois Rouaix) (02/21/91)
In article <2323@odin.cs.hw.ac.uk>, rwkay@cs.hw.ac.uk (R.W.Kay) writes: |> As you can all see from my .sig, I'm one of the programmers of Lemmings |> (albeit on a PC, |> but this is for a sin I commited long ago, my heart lies in the Amiga |> community). I can |> simply state that Lemmings would be HD installable, if it wasn't for the |> fact that it would |> be too easy too copy if it was AMIGADOS'd in any way. While you're listening, let me add something: I bought Lemmings last saturday, and I find myself unable to play with it... The reason: I own an NTSC machine, and the version sold in Europe is for PAL machines only. Why, oh why ? I think the teaser demo that was released a few weeks ago would run on NTSC machines as well as PAL machines. The game does not need more than 200 lines for its graphics. A guess ? the copy-protection schemes depends on the CIA clock of the machine, which is different in NTSC and PAL versions. I had hoped that the efforts of the programmers to release a program compatible with all models of Amigas and all versions of AmigaDOS would encompass the PAL/NTSC problem. It's not the case and I'm disappointed (although this is not the first time this misfortune happens to me, but here I'm really pissed of : the game *is* *great*). SIDENOTE: for those of you who regularly ask how you can bring your Amiga in Europe (dealing with 220v voltage), REMEMBER that if you intend to buy some software in Europe, you have a good chance (!) not to be able to use it. |> Russell Kay (rwkay@uk.ac.hw.cs) Programmer of PC Menace ) all *- Francois Rouaix // When the going gets tough, * *- rouaix@inria.inria.fr \X/ the guru goes meditating... * *- SYSOP of Sgt. Flam's Lonely Amigas Club. (33) (1) 39-55-84-59 (Videotext) *
jdmst11@unix.cis.pitt.edu (John D Morris) (02/21/91)
In article <1991Feb21.042949.12542@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, fmcphers@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (frank mcpherson) writes: > | There are quite a number of us out here who feel strongly on this issue. If > | we could get together, maybe we could make some of the companies understand > | that we exist... [lots deleted] > | --Craig (the one who rambles on and on and on and on and on and on and on...) > not everyone will do that. Anyone else interesting in participating in > something like this? I also have an HD on my 500. And, after purchasing it realized that if I hope to use ANYTHING on it, I'm gonna have to rely solely on PD/Share- ware. I don't want to do this. As good as shareware is, it is NOT as good as commercial software. Therefore, I think that the letter-writing campaign is a good idea, and support it fully. John M. Hawk
cmw1725@tamsun.tamu.edu (Christopher Walton) (02/22/91)
In article <1858@public.BTR.COM> timm@public.BTR.COM (Timothy M. Maffett timm@btr.com) writes: >So, this fancy copy protection gave psygnosis at LEAST (maybe more) >A WOPPING -14 (thats right, NEGATIVE, as in <0) DAY jump on software pirates >in the US. I guess they are right, these CP schemes really do work >(just not as intended, these LOSE sales to legit users). You guys don't realize the reason that COPY protection exists... COPY protection is not there to STOP a game from being pirated, (or cracked as you SHOULD say) COPY protection is not meant to stop the hard core pirate that calls up the local pirate bbs and downloads a cracked version, it is meant for the casual pirate who just copies a program for a friend, or copies a program and, God forbid, sells the COPY. You must realize that the "pirates" who get cracked games are not included in marketing strategies, they are not likely to buy ANY game be it cracked or not. If a company does include pirates in their profit margin (no matter how good the protection) they are bound to go under. COPY protection DOES work, it only works for the reason it was intended, not for what every Joe thinks it was intended for. That -14 day jump on the pirates is a moot point, that happens to virtually EVERY game. That copy protection DOES work when you consider that the program is not copyable with any of the commercial copy programs, and the friend who was waiting for you to copy it for him decides, he'll just go out and buy it because finding a parameter, or a copy program that will copy it is taking too long. Christopher Walton cmw1725@tamsun.tamu.edu >-tmm
huebner@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert E. Huebner) (02/22/91)
In article <1991Feb20.185537@monet.ucdavis.edu> ez002266@monet.ucdavis.edu () writes: >Hi, I was just about to post how great lemmings was, and how it was still worth >it even >though it only boots from floppy when an unfortunate circumstance ocurred. >The disk went bad. >I got this game 2 days ago, and now it doesn't fucking work. >Psygnosis used KAO disks for the copy I have. What a perfect combination. I also noted with some amusement that the disks came un-write-protected. Since Lemmings uses level passwords, I saw no reason for it to write to the disk, so flipped those little things before I booted - works great. This is particularly suprising after several pages in the manual were dedicated to virus warnings and disclaimers. Why not practise the best virus protection known to man - write protect the damn disk?! (Of course, it is possible that my disks were a fluke) >Now, I like this game too much to simply return it, but I don't want to have to >return >it every 2 days. Would some kind soul like to trade a cracked happy-dos version >of lemmings for two useless disks with 'lemmings' stamped on the cover? Since Lemmings hasn't even been out for a week, you're well within the free replacement period for the disks. However, they expect you to send 2.50 quid for replacement to Psygnosis Ltd (U.K.), which seems ridiculous since the postage would be about $10 and 30 days! >-bruce -- | Robert E. Huebner | "Death is nature's way of telling | | huebner@en.ecn.purdue.edu | you to slow down" | | huebner@aerospace.aero.org | - Unknown Author |
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) (02/22/91)
In article <1991Feb21.000742.24037@eecs.wsu.edu> crichard@yoda.UUCP (richardson craig s - CS500) writes: }In article <1991Feb20.131134.22875@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> fmcphers@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (frank mcpherson) writes: }> }>Being forced to load a game from a floppy is also incredibly annoying to me. }>I've got an A3000 with a bit of HD space, and I'd very much like to use it for }>what *I* like to use my computer for, which includes games. I don't have any }>Psygnosis games, but unfortunately, I do own powermonger. I am seriosly }>considering writing letters to the distributors of several games, asking }>them to re-think their policies concerning copy protection. } }I would like to add one more "me too" to the pile of HD-supporting posts... } }I have had a HD for my 500 (don't look at me that way, it's not nice) for a }couple of years, and prefer that it not sit around gathering dust while I }use a game that the programmer or distributor chose to make non-HD-installable. }Unlike most people, I don't mind manual-based copy protection at all (unless }it's on non-xeroxable paper. Feh.). I can live with key disks. What I can }not live with, and refuse to from now on, is software that will not recognize }the difference between my system and the "average" system that they develop }for. Their policy is, IMHO, against the Amiga philosophy (there he goes, }getting all Zen on us again...). } }There are quite a number of us out here who feel strongly on this issue. If }we could get together, maybe we could make some of the companies understand }that we exist... I agree. Maybe someone who is an English major out there can do us up a good form letter stating our protest that we can print out multiple times and mail off to the game makers? --Moriland -- | hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu | __ | | | __/// Viva Amiga! | | Founder Of: Evil Young | \XX/ | | Mutants For A Better Tomorrow | "Single Tasking: JUST SAY NO!" |
dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan) (02/22/91)
In article <12434@helios.TAMU.EDU> cmw1725@tamsun.tamu.edu (Christopher Walton) writes: |In article <1858@public.BTR.COM> timm@public.BTR.COM (Timothy M. Maffett timm@btr.com) writes: |not for what every Joe thinks it was intended for. That -14 day jump on the |pirates is a moot point, that happens to virtually EVERY game. That copy |protection DOES work when you consider that the program is not copyable with |any of the commercial copy programs, and the friend who was waiting for you to |copy it for him decides, he'll just go out and buy it because finding a |parameter, or a copy program that will copy it is taking too long. Looks good on paper, but it's extremely bogus. As far as I can tell, EVERYone knows someone with pirate connections. You have to keep in mind that a disproportionate number of Amiga owners have modems, and thus have have a much better chance of getting in touch with a pirate. Plus, once the pirates crack it, anyone can copy it. -14 days before the software is on the shelves, it's floating around in a .lhw file. dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of everything...haven't you learned; if it's not happenning to me it's not important?" -Murphy Brown
kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com (John Kominetz - Product Assurance) (02/22/91)
In article <5215@vela.acs.oakland.edu> hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) writes: >In article <1991Feb20.064217.26621@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) writes: >}> P.S. In case you're wondering PC Lemmings is HD installable, but >}That, my friend, is the straw that broke the... (and boy does it piss >}me off. And will it ever get me started...) >I'm afraid that I have to agree wth everything you've just said. I >don't think I will purchase it either. Good game or not. Perhaps when >it ends up in the bargin bin for $5.00 or so I'll consider it. I plan >to start boycotting game makers who do not support at LEAST HD >installability. Software manufacturers will produce their software for the most common configuration of each system. An Electronic Arts Rep said that over 90% of their sales (or at least those that sent in the reg. card) in the Amiga market are straight A500s: no ram expanders, no external drives, nothing. They will not change their policies until they are convinced (by their market info.) that accelerators, extra ram, etc. are the rule, not the exception. Since many companies base this on their registered owners' responses, your boycott not only deprives you of good software but insures that manufacturers won't change their behavior. >If anything, business software and the like is probably pirated more >often than Games because folks are unwilling to fork out the large $$$ >to get the good Business software. (Word Perfect has got to be one of >the most Office Pirated bits of software I have seen) Despite all >that, they rarely have any protection of any kind. The fact that they >haven't gone bellyup would seem to weaken the Game Maker's argument >that protection is vital and necessary. > > --Moriland First, the goal of copy protection is to discourage the common user from reproducing the software. No protection method will stop a good hacker, but the average user (with his stock A500) can't copy something unless one of the copy programs does it. This gives software months in the marketplace. Pirate BBS's threaten this, but the number of modem owners is still low enough (and the numbers difficult enough to find) that it isn't a problem. Second, no analogy to the current PC market is valid. With 20+ million MSDOS platforms out there, any PC product can afford dramatically higher piracy rates and still sell more pieces of software than there are Amiga computers. Back when the PC market was around 2 million, software (including lotus, wordperfect and games) was copy-protected anyway. In conclusion, software companies listen to the people that buy their software, not the ones that would "if..." The surest way to convince a manufacturer to leave the market is to stop buying its product, especially since all these companies can sell ten times more product in their MSDOS lines. You will miss out on a great game for the Amiga by not buying Lemmings, and your attitude will certainly not improve the situation for anyone in the Amiga Community. John Kominetz disclaimer: These are my opinions and may not reflect those of Commodore.
cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) (02/22/91)
In article <19228@cbmvax.commodore.com> kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com (John Kominetz - Product Assurance) writes: >In article <5215@vela.acs.oakland.edu> hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) writes: >>In article <1991Feb20.064217.26621@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) writes: >>}> P.S. In case you're wondering PC Lemmings is HD installable, but > >>}That, my friend, is the straw that broke the... (and boy does it piss >>}me off. And will it ever get me started...) > >>I'm afraid that I have to agree wth everything you've just said. I >>don't think I will purchase it either. Good game or not. Perhaps when >>it ends up in the bargin bin for $5.00 or so I'll consider it. I plan >>to start boycotting game makers who do not support at LEAST HD >>installability. > > Software manufacturers will produce their software for the most >common configuration of each system. An Electronic Arts Rep said that Come on, you work for C=, you above most others should know by now that it is easier to *support* a HD, than to *not support* a HD on the Amiga. If you don't know that, you should be fired! The harddrive issue is independent of the most common configuration issue. I have come to the conclusion that the only reason programs (OK, games) on the Amiga can't be HD installable is that it makes them, in the minds of the maker, easier to copy. >over 90% of their sales (or at least those that sent in the reg. card) >in the Amiga market are straight A500s: no ram expanders, no external >drives, nothing. They will not change their policies until they are >convinced (by their market info.) that accelerators, extra ram, etc. are >the rule, not the exception. Since many companies base this on their >registered owners' responses, your boycott not only deprives you of good ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >software but insures that manufacturers won't change their behavior. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is the biggest line of BS I've ever heard related to this problem. It's like saying, ``Oh well, I don't the new favor of Coke(tm), I go buy tons of it so the Coke-a-cola Co will listen to me on how to change the mixure.'' Haha You have this point exactly backwards, my friend. Also, I might argue that it is not good software, if it does not run on my system in a friendly way. I will spare the detail of this as we just talked about this issue a few months ago... In any event, you've missed the point, I'm really mad that they had to the balls to make the PC version HD installable, but not the Amiga version. DMA design is making Amiga owners feel like second class computer owners with this decision. That is why I'm so mad. > First, the goal of copy protection is to discourage the common user >from reproducing the software. No protection method will stop a good >hacker, but the average user (with his stock A500) can't copy something >unless one of the copy programs does it. This gives software months in the >marketplace. Pirate BBS's threaten this, but the number of modem owners >is still low enough (and the numbers difficult enough to find) that it >isn't a problem. Humm, last time I checked the lookup the word in the manual method worked quite well. At least many US game makers are using it now. > Second, no analogy to the current PC market is valid. With 20+ million >MSDOS platforms out there, any PC product can afford dramatically higher >piracy rates and still sell more pieces of software than there are Amiga >computers. Back when the PC market was around 2 million, software >(including lotus, wordperfect and games) was copy-protected anyway. > > In conclusion, software companies listen to the people that buy their >software, not the ones that would "if..." The surest way to convince a I have bought and currently own in excess of ten Psygnosis titles, your above point and this conclusion are obviously wrong because they haven't listened to me or people like me yet! I have bought their software, they haven't changed, thus I'm stopping. If they want my business, they can at least treat me like they are now treating PC buyers. This mean allow for HD installation. It's that easy. >manufacturer to leave the market is to stop buying its product, especially >since all these companies can sell ten times more product in their MSDOS Well, I'm not going to buy their wares anymore, so no skin off my back. ``Good riddance,'' I'd say. >lines. You will miss out on a great game for the Amiga by not buying Read, whatever you want into this: Just because I'm not buying Lemmings, does not mean I won't enjoy it. [Note: I don't condone piracy in any form in general, but in this case I might make an exception.] >Lemmings, and your attitude will certainly not improve the situation for >anyone in the Amiga Community. No, you got it backwards again, the situation won't improve unless people like me keep keep my attitude. People with your attitude are just riding along with the status quo. > John Kominetz > >disclaimer: These are my opinions and may not reflect those of Commodore. Boy, let's hope not! Loren J. Rittle -- ``NewTek stated that the Toaster *would not* be made to directly support the Mac, at this point Sculley stormed out of the booth...'' -A scene at the recent MacExpo. Gee, you wouldn't think that an Apple Exec would be so worried about one little Amiga Device... Loren J. Rittle l-rittle@uiuc.edu
cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) (02/23/91)
In article <19242@cbmvax.commodore.com> kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com (John Kominetz - Product Assurance) writes: >In article <1991Feb22.153827.29437@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) writes: >>In article <19228@cbmvax.commodore.com> kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com (John Kominetz - Product Assurance) writes: >>> Software manufacturers will produce their software for the most >>>common configuration of each system. An Electronic Arts Rep said that... >>Come on, you work for C=, you above most others should know by now >>that it is easier to *support* a HD, than to *not support* a HD on > Learn to read. Their behavior won't change just because it's easier to >do something a particular way--they must have a reason to change. A good reason >would be that most Amiga owners have hard drives (but don't) and want this >feature. Humm, last time I checked I knew how to read... [Let's keep the personal slams out of this discussion please...] The *most* common configuration on the amiga is one that supports *all* standard Amiga devices. I agree that if we were talking about some fancy wiz-bang graphic board, you might have a point. But it takes no work to support all Amiga File System Devices. It would be as you describe, if you had to have special code to handle different devices (ie, the early PC days...). >>>registered owners' responses, your boycott not only deprives you of good >>>software but insures that manufacturers won't change their behavior. >>This is the biggest line of BS I've ever heard related to this > Rephrased: A loud, annoying minority isn't a factor in what and how a >company produces goods. I still disagree, me buying their product says, ``Yup, I like what you are doing.'' Not buying and telling them why gets a point across. >>> First, the goal of copy protection is to discourage the common user >>>from reproducing the software. No protection method will stop a good >>Humm, last time I checked the lookup the word in the manual method >>worked quite well. At least many US game makers are using it now... > ...and key disks and disk copy protection. Nobody is thrilled with disk >copy protection, but unless it gronks my drive to death, I'll put up with >it for a game like Lemmings. Name the US game makers still using key disks and disk copy protection. I'll bet I could come up with a longer list of companies using the manual method. >>> Second, no analogy to the current PC market is valid. With 20+ million >The same thing happens in the PC market: A few people have had VGA adapters >for years and have always complained about having no support for it in the >games. Now that VGA is common in cheap MSDOS machines, the games are starting >to support it. No magic involved, and no shouting fits either. Yes, in a way, I see your point, and I will now use it to my advantage: You are right, no analogy to the PC market is valid. Back when VGA was new and had to have special code in every application that used it, you are right - not many applications supported it. But on the Amiga due to it's nice OS, any application or game can support all Filing System Devices with no extra code. ``No magic involved.'' You nicely sidestepped a point I brought up in my last message and I would like a response from you on it: I stated the main reason games on the Amiga were not HD installable was for CP reasons. Do you agree or disagree with this statement? >>>Lemmings, and your attitude will certainly not improve the situation for >>>anyone in the Amiga Community. >>No, you got it backwards again, the situation won't improve unless >>people like me keep keep my attitude. People with your attitude >>are just riding along with the status quo. > Will your attitude convince A500C owners to buy hard drives? Since we >make the A590, we'd be terribly grateful if you could manage this feat. You'd >get the software you want, and we'd get the sales we want. I, of course, would recommend the GVP as it is what I have been using on my A2000 for two years now. I hope all these A500C owners don't need too much convincing, as my hard drive controller can load the amount of data stored on one floppy in one second. >>``NewTek stated that the Toaster *would not* be made to directly support the >> Mac, at this point Sculley stormed out of the booth...'' -A scene at the >> recent MacExpo. Gee, you wouldn't think that an Apple Exec would be so >> worried about one little Amiga Device... Loren J. Rittle l-rittle@uiuc.edu > > And a Mac basher as well from the look of it. How predictable. Not that I have to defend myself, but... The above is not Mac bashing. The above event really happened - I'm just commenting on it. Where do you even see the Mac mentioned? This is pointing out how people are starting to notice the Amiga after five years (or had you not noticed?). No actually, it would be predictable if I were on your side of this argument. It's usually the 16 year old with a HD-less system that would not care if a program was HD installable and system friendly. As a programmer and as one who believes in order (and thus OS friendly programs) it saddens me to see people trash the OS for no good reason. Does it not bother you, as a C= employee, that game maker are throwing away the OS? > John Kominetz > >disclaimer: These are my opinions and may not reflect those of Commodore. When will the above say Sony instead :-)? Loren J. Rittle -- ``NewTek stated that the Toaster *would not* be made to directly support the Mac, at this point Sculley stormed out of the booth...'' -A scene at the recent MacExpo. Gee, you wouldn't think that an Apple Exec would be so worried about one little Amiga Device... Loren J. Rittle l-rittle@uiuc.edu
pcooper@eecs.wsu.edu (Phil Cooper - CS495) (02/23/91)
In article <19228@cbmvax.commodore.com> kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com (John Kominetz - Product Assurance) writes: > > Software manufacturers will produce their software for the most >common configuration of each system. An Electronic Arts Rep said that Not true... Good software manufacturers WILL support extra features in their targeted computers. In the PC world, advantage is often taken of expanded memory, higher level graphics, and hard drives. I can't even THINK of a business application for the PC which is not HD installable. Sorry, I can't comment on PC games...when I want to play a computer game, I head for my amiga. >over 90% of their sales (or at least those that sent in the reg. card) >in the Amiga market are straight A500s: no ram expanders, no external >drives, nothing. They will not change their policies until they are >convinced (by their market info.) that accelerators, extra ram, etc. are So? What is your point? With over 2 million Amigas sold, the 10% of them with expanded capabilities represents over 200,000 machines. More, those with the $$ to purchase system expansions probably have the $$ to purchase games as well. They want their software to take advantage of the investment they have made in their system. >the rule, not the exception. Since many companies base this on their >registered owners' responses, your boycott not only deprives you of good >software but insures that manufacturers won't change their behavior. > I would argue the point that software which is not HD installable is "good". I would say it is brain-damaged and not worthy of my hard earned money. I mean really, how much extra effort is required to support a hard disk? Can you say little to none? A boycott may not change the manufacturers behavior, but it might drive them out of business. This is good. Businesses which fail to identify customer needs go bankrupt every day of the year. This opens up opportunities for companies that really DO care about their customers. > First, the goal of copy protection is to discourage the common user >from reproducing the software. No protection method will stop a good >hacker, but the average user (with his stock A500) can't copy something >unless one of the copy programs does it. This gives software months in the I have a LEGAL right to make a backup copy for my own use. My rights are being denied if I purchase a software product and am prevented from making an archival copy. Please people, do not support companies which deny you your rights under US law. There are enough companies out there producing enough software that can be backed up, that we do NOT need the ones that don't. >marketplace. Pirate BBS's threaten this, but the number of modem owners >is still low enough (and the numbers difficult enough to find) that it >isn't a problem. > > Second, no analogy to the current PC market is valid. With 20+ million >MSDOS platforms out there, any PC product can afford dramatically higher >piracy rates and still sell more pieces of software than there are Amiga >computers. Back when the PC market was around 2 million, software >(including lotus, wordperfect and games) was copy-protected anyway. PC companies did not, in a fit of benevolence, decide that the number of PC's sold had made piracy rates acceptable. They were literally FORCED through a tremendous consumer backlash to de-protect the software. I know, I was part of it. As long as we continue to tolerate it, software companies will continue to do it. > > In conclusion, software companies listen to the people that buy their >software, not the ones that would "if..." The surest way to convince a Wrong...Smart companies are always looking to expand market share. This means attracting NEW buyers, not just keeping old ones. Smart companies listen to what prospective buyers have to say. If these companies are ignoring potential customers who would buy "if...", they are making a grave mistake. Other companies will provide similar software that includes desired features and they will have that customer. Not the one who continues to plod along with blinders on. >manufacturer to leave the market is to stop buying its product, especially >since all these companies can sell ten times more product in their MSDOS >lines. You will miss out on a great game for the Amiga by not buying >Lemmings, and your attitude will certainly not improve the situation for >anyone in the Amiga Community. > John, you sound so confident, so sure of yourself in this advice. I think you are 180 degrees wrong here. I for one could live without another game, and certainly would not notice the demise of Psygnosis. If nothing else, it would put other vendors on notice that they MUST provide a means for legal backups and support for expanded systems. You sound like we should be grateful for another whiz-bang neato game that forbids HD installation and prevents our LEGAL right to make a backup. I am insulted and resentful. If we continue to support these jerks by buying their games, what motivation do they have to change their behavior? None. > John Kominetz > >disclaimer: These are my opinions and may not reflect those of Commodore. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Thank god for that! -Phil- -- /********************************************************************\ * Real Life: Phillip R. Cooper * * Email: pcooper@yoda.eecs.wsu.edu * * Disclaimer: Disclaimer?? I don't need no stinkin' disclaimer!!! *
farren@sat.com (Michael J. Farren) (02/24/91)
kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com writes: > Software manufacturers will produce their software for the most >common configuration of each system. An Electronic Arts Rep said that >over 90% of their sales (or at least those that sent in the reg. card) >in the Amiga market are straight A500s: no ram expanders, no external >drives, nothing. They will not change their policies until they are >convinced (by their market info.) that accelerators, extra ram, etc. are >the rule, not the exception. Since many companies base this on their >registered owners' responses, your boycott not only deprives you of good >software but insures that manufacturers won't change their behavior. You miss the point entirely. Certainly we (the game developers, of which I am one) want to write our games so that they work on the lowest common denominator systems, simply to maximize the sales potential. However, enabling the use of more features if they are available does NOT mean that the LCD class will be out of luck. It's not like I'm saying that you HAVE to have a harddrive to run any of my games (and I put a great amount of effort into at least one of them to make sure that such a situation didn't apply) - but I do make sure that IF you have a harddrive, you CAN use it. Preventing its use is exactly the same, philosophically, as requiring its use - either way locks out some of the user base from full use of their machine. Either alternative is awful, especially when there is no need to go either way. Lemmings could have allowed HD installation easily, with NO penalty to those unlucky enough not to have one. That it did not makes it an example of poor decision-making on Psygnosis' part, something they seem to excel at. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael J. Farren farren@sat.com | | He's moody, but he's cute. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com (John Kominetz - Product Assurance) (02/24/91)
In article <1991Feb23.102958.12284@evax.arl.utexas.edu> hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Adam Hill) writes: > > I know I really shouldn't add to this thread but....... > I shouldn't have either...and this'll be the last I add to it myself. Lemmings is too good a game to brush aside because it is disk protected and will not multitask. It is the first Psygnosis game to support an external drive and expanded memory, so Psygnosis is making some effort to improve their product. Rather than punishing them for not fulfilling all our desires, we should reward them for producing some of the most stunning (and now playable) software in the market. I'd rather endure the disk copy protection for a great game rather than play a mediocre one from my hard drive. I don't understand why Lemmings has been the subject of all this nasty business. I am more offended by the games that fail on accelerators or crash under 2.0 because they are penalizing the user for having these "advantages." Make these products the subject of your boycott first. Finally, we can argue for megabytes about why companies do things or what "Smart Companies" should do, but somebody suggested writing to Psygnosis--and this is the best idea yet. Write a neutral, coherent letter to Psygnosis or whoever and tell them that you would like to see these features in future games. Ask them to reply and explain any reasons they have for not adding these features. Agree or disagree, you'll know exactly where they stand and why. John Kominetz disclaimer: These are my opinions and may not reflect those of Commodore, regardless of what you believe or not.
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (02/24/91)
kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com (John Kominetz - Product Assurance) writes: > Software manufacturers will produce their software for the most common > configuration of each system. An Electronic Arts Rep said that over > 90% of their sales (or at least those that sent in the reg. card) in > the Amiga market are straight A500s: no ram expanders, no external > drives, nothing. Which is, of course, completely bogus. If you insult all the folks with money to burn, by refusing to support their extra hardware, and then only get registration cards from folks with kiddie-car startup systems, you are allowed to draw the conclusion that only kiddie-car startup system owners buy games, but you prove yourself a fool doing so; you have already selected out the folks with the cash before you did your registration card survey. Now if you were to go check the registration cards from the games that say: "HD installable, extra sound with one meg of ram, runs completely from memory with 3 meg of ram, extra drawing detail on faster systems" prominently on the cover, you'd get a very different feel for who is spending money on Amiga games. > They will not change their policies until they are convinced (by their > market info.) that accelerators, extra ram, etc. are the rule, not the > exception. If this is an example of their world view of the market, no wonder marketroids are the object of jests around the world, and no wonder they continue to produce such utter dreck. Scan the online files in this group for "EA" and see how many posting have that wrapped in: "Will never buy another" and "game". > Since many companies base this on their registered owners' responses, > your boycott not only deprives you of good software but insures that > manufacturers won't change their behavior. The alternative being to throw good money after bad, I guess I won't keep buying their system hostile games, thanks. Since they only survey those who agree with their opinions, and then produce goods as if that represented Truth, the remaining available suasion is market force. The biggest reason for this newsgroup is to warn folks away from the turkeys and highlight the winners. (Though the bulk of traffic is game hints.) Sometimes the "turkey" is a whole company. In the case of Lemmings, Psygnosis didn't write the game, they just chose to wrap it in obnoxious copy control before selling it. It's nearly a sure bet the game was _developed_ with play from a HD, and crippled by the vendor. Buying the system friendly games (Crystal Quest, Pocoman, Empire, Pirates, etc) and not buying the system unfriendly games is the best handle on changing game vendor behavior, either by smartening them up, or by replacing them with those who read _do_ handwriting on walls. Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
yorkw@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Willis F York) (02/24/91)
specter@disk.uucp (Byron Max Guernsey) writes: >And also, I remember in a previous message one of the programmers of lemmings >said that it had caching for larger than 512k. I have a meg and the DEMO did >not cach levels. I dunno if maybe this was because the demo said it had >been "cracked" or what? It is a mystery to me if this demo version is >really legal?!?! Why would it say cracked on a demo?!?!? All I could >think if is that this was some type of psychological warfare to get the >DEMO spread faster and IE sell more copies?!?! Or it may indeed be a >cracked demo?!?! Strange... The Real Lemmings Detects and uses extended RAM, (This was on my friends 3000, wth 6 meg) Hmm wonder if it can detede NON-autoconfig ram? -- yorkw@ecn.purdue.edu Willis F York (Hope THIS sig don't insult anyone!)
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) (02/25/91)
In article <19228@cbmvax.commodore.com> kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com (John Kominetz - Product Assurance) writes: }In article <5215@vela.acs.oakland.edu> hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) writes: }>In article <1991Feb20.064217.26621@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) writes: }>}> P.S. In case you're wondering PC Lemmings is HD installable, but } }>}That, my friend, is the straw that broke the... (and boy does it piss }>}me off. And will it ever get me started...) } }>I'm afraid that I have to agree wth everything you've just said. I }>don't think I will purchase it either. Good game or not. Perhaps when }>it ends up in the bargin bin for $5.00 or so I'll consider it. I plan }>to start boycotting game makers who do not support at LEAST HD }>installability. } } Software manufacturers will produce their software for the most }common configuration of each system. An Electronic Arts Rep said that }over 90% of their sales (or at least those that sent in the reg. card) }in the Amiga market are straight A500s: no ram expanders, no external }drives, nothing. They will not change their policies until they are }convinced (by their market info.) that accelerators, extra ram, etc. are }the rule, not the exception. Since many companies base this on their }registered owners' responses, your boycott not only deprives you of good }software but insures that manufacturers won't change their behavior. I trust Electronic Arts about as far as I could spit them. First they go through this big hype back in 85-86 about how they are committed to the Amiga and then they turn around and practically ignore us for the MS-DOS and Nintendo crowd. There are quite a few packages promised back in 85 they never delivered on and most of what they have put out has been poorly ported IBM crap. The only decent games I have seen from them in awhile were Populos and Powermonger and thats because Bullfrog had someone who cared enough to sit down and port it properly. Sadly, even those games lack HD support. Woe be unto us if EA had had to port those products themselves. Just because I don't buy their software doesn't mean I don't let my opinion be known. I do a lot of letter writing to the different companies complaining about the same things I gripe about on here. Another thing I'd like to see supported is joysticks with more than one button, but that doesn't appear to be happening rather quickly either. } }>If anything, business software and the like is probably pirated more }>often than Games because folks are unwilling to fork out the large $$$ }>to get the good Business software. (Word Perfect has got to be one of }>the most Office Pirated bits of software I have seen) Despite all }>that, they rarely have any protection of any kind. The fact that they }>haven't gone bellyup would seem to weaken the Game Maker's argument }>that protection is vital and necessary. }> }> --Moriland } } First, the goal of copy protection is to discourage the common user }from reproducing the software. No protection method will stop a good }hacker, but the average user (with his stock A500) can't copy something }unless one of the copy programs does it. This gives software months in the }marketplace. Pirate BBS's threaten this, but the number of modem owners }is still low enough (and the numbers difficult enough to find) that it }isn't a problem. All those folks on here who doesn't know at least ONE pirate, raise your hand. I'm willing to bet there are very few hands raised. Modem or not, most folks have a friend who has a collection they could get stuff from. Even as such, with products like the Maverick disk copier which uses hardware and will copy just about anything the lack of a modem or even a friend who is a collector is hardly limiting anymore. The argument just doesn't wash anymore. } } Second, no analogy to the current PC market is valid. With 20+ million }MSDOS platforms out there, any PC product can afford dramatically higher }piracy rates and still sell more pieces of software than there are Amiga }computers. Back when the PC market was around 2 million, software }(including lotus, wordperfect and games) was copy-protected anyway. I wasn't alluding to the PC market, I was speaking about Word Perfect and thier ilk on the Amiga. } } In conclusion, software companies listen to the people that buy their }software, not the ones that would "if..." The surest way to convince a }manufacturer to leave the market is to stop buying its product, especially }since all these companies can sell ten times more product in their MSDOS }lines. You will miss out on a great game for the Amiga by not buying }Lemmings, and your attitude will certainly not improve the situation for }anyone in the Amiga Community. If they can't do a better job of writing software then as far as I am concerned they could stop producing software for the Amiga today and I wouldn't miss them. I refuse to pay for a product that does not support features I feel are important. If you wanted a GM car that had 200 horsepower and GM refused to sell anything beyond 150 Horsepower becuase the general public felt they only needed 150 horsepower would you settle for 150? No, you'd go out and find a car at Ford or Chrysler or a Japanese model that had what you wanted. Why should I be willing to settle for anything less in my software? So I miss out on a great game. I've missed on some great movies in my time, but it hasn't killed me. They're probably a lot of great games I have missed out on in the past. Helpfull or not, I will not plunk down my hard earned money for software that does not have features I want. Instead I will continue to write letters to the game makers and continue to express my views in public forums such as UseNet and my User's Group newsletter in hopes that someone out there is listening. --Moriland -- | hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu | __ | | | __/// Viva Amiga! | | Founder Of: Evil Young | \XX/ | | Mutants For A Better Tomorrow | "Single Tasking: JUST SAY NO!" |
colas@avahi.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) (02/25/91)
In article <1991Feb24.071119.14036@disk.uucp>, specter@disk.uucp (Byron Max Guernsey) writes: > timm@public.BTR.COM (Timothy M. Maffett timm@btr.com) writes: > Are you sure the version of the game in the amiga store was pirated? A friend > of mine got a DEMO from the store (which I now have) and it SAID it had > been CRACKED by SKID ROW. It had a little crack message on the boot up > screen, but then the game itself said it was a DEMO (in the little scrolling > banner?!? this is the one I uploaded to abc20. It IS a demo, it only has 5 levels. > I assumed that maybe SKID ROW made it into amiga dos format? or just that DMA didn't want competition to make a clone too fast? -- Colas Nahaboo, colas@sa.inria.fr, Bull Research, Koala Project, GWM X11 WM Phone:(33) 93.65.77.70(.66 Fax), INRIA, B.P.109 - 06561 Valbonne Cedex, FRANCE.
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) (02/25/91)
In article <19266@cbmvax.commodore.com> kominetz@cbmvax.commodore.com (John Kominetz - Product Assurance) writes: }In article <1991Feb23.102958.12284@evax.arl.utexas.edu> hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Adam Hill) writes: }> }> I know I really shouldn't add to this thread but....... }> } } I shouldn't have either...and this'll be the last I add to it myself. } } } Lemmings is too good a game to brush aside because it is disk protected }and will not multitask. It is the first Psygnosis game to support an external }drive and expanded memory, so Psygnosis is making some effort to improve their }product. Rather than punishing them for not fulfilling all our desires, we }should reward them for producing some of the most stunning (and now playable) }software in the market. I'd rather endure the disk copy protection for a }great game rather than play a mediocre one from my hard drive. I'd rather play a good game from my HD than from floppy or not at all. } } I don't understand why Lemmings has been the subject of all this nasty }business. I am more offended by the games that fail on accelerators or crash }under 2.0 because they are penalizing the user for having these "advantages." }Make these products the subject of your boycott first. Lemmings is not the only subject of this business. It was merely the one that lit the fuse. It would seem that several people reached the end of their ropes at the same time and Lemmings just had the bad luck of being the straw that broke the camels back. There are those of us who get angry when we find another great game that we would love to have that doesn't support HDs. Nothing you do to a floppy in terms of non-standard DOS, etc is going to make it as fast as my HD. I like having a whole level load in 1 sec or less instead of 30 seconds. 30 Seconds may not seem like much to ask unless you have gotten use to fast access loads. There are several requirements I have for games, HD installability is just the most important one in my mind. If great games like Wings, Star Control, and others can support the HD, why can't Lemmings? (Wings is MUCH more enjoyable off of a HD) I also like to have it be OS friendly and support faster processors, but those points don't stand out as much to me as HD installable. I can, in certain instances, understand nuking the OS. Not supporting faster processors is incomprehensible to me. } } Finally, we can argue for megabytes about why companies do things or what }"Smart Companies" should do, but somebody suggested writing to Psygnosis--and }this is the best idea yet. Write a neutral, coherent letter to Psygnosis or }whoever and tell them that you would like to see these features in future }games. Ask them to reply and explain any reasons they have for not adding }these features. Agree or disagree, you'll know exactly where they stand and }why. I have. To them and several others as well. Another point I quite often mention is for support of joysticks with more than one button. The Sega Gensis joypad is an excellent choice if only because two of the three buttons are already compatable with the Amiga's routines. } } John Kominetz } }disclaimer: These are my opinions and may not reflect those of Commodore, } regardless of what you believe or not. ---Moriland -- | hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu | __ | | | __/// Viva Amiga! | | Founder Of: Evil Young | \XX/ | | Mutants For A Better Tomorrow | "Single Tasking: JUST SAY NO!" |
yorkw@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Willis F York) (02/26/91)
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) writes: >} I don't understand why Lemmings has been the subject of all this nasty >}business. I am more offended by the games that fail on accelerators or crash >}under 2.0 because they are penalizing the user for having these "advantages." >}Make these products the subject of your boycott first. I think one thing is that `supposubly` lemmings for the IBM IS hard drive installable... (That`s what i hear) -- yorkw@ecn.purdue.edu Willis F York (Hope THIS sig don't insult anyone!)
RIDOUT@uservx.afwl.af.mil (02/26/91)
[stuff deleted] > > Second, no analogy to the current PC market is valid. With 20+ million > MSDOS platforms out there, any PC product can afford dramatically higher > piracy rates and still sell more pieces of software than there are Amiga > computers. Back when the PC market was around 2 million, software > (including lotus, wordperfect and games) was copy-protected anyway. > > In conclusion, software companies listen to the people that buy their > software, not the ones that would "if..." The surest way to convince a > manufacturer to leave the market is to stop buying its product, especially > since all these companies can sell ten times more product in their MSDOS > lines. You will miss out on a great game for the Amiga by not buying > Lemmings, and your attitude will certainly not improve the situation for > anyone in the Amiga Community. > > John Kominetz > > disclaimer: These are my opinions and may not reflect those of Commodore. That is all well and good but how can I enjoy the game if I cant get through the copy protection. Example I just bought f/16 Combat pilot because of the talk on the net. I got it home and found that I cannot make a copy. Ok that's fine I have a couple of games like that none have ever gone bad and you dont write to it. I start it up and it asks me for a word form a paragraf from a page in the manual. Now I'm mad I can make a copy but a manual lookup besides? and what is the definition of a paragraph to these people. It takes me three tries to get through. I am finaly in and I try to fly around. The controls suck the graphics suck, oh well whatever, I can still have fun I did not pay much. So now I make a named pilot to play with so I put my blank disk into df1:. But nooooooooooo!!! I requires it in df0: now I have to switch disks. Will I wont buy anything like this again. There's too many other good things to buy I don't have to waste my money. Brian -- **************************************************************************** * Brian Ridout What's the difference between a CAR * * PL/SCEV salesman and a COMPUTER salesman? * * Kirtland AFB NM 87117 * * * ridout@uservx.afwl.af.mil The CAR salesman KNOWS when he's lying! * ****************************************************************************
beust@avahi.inria.fr (Cedric BEUST) (02/28/91)
In article <5257@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) writes: > [stuff deleted] > non-standard DOS, etc is going to make it as fast as my HD. I like > having a whole level load in 1 sec or less instead of 30 seconds. 30 > Seconds may not seem like much to ask unless you have gotten use to > fast access loads. There are several requirements I have for games, HD > installability is just the most important one in my mind. If great I can understand that, but I'm not so sure the speed argument is a good one. You can't reasonably suppose that any HD installable game will load faster than its floppy equivalent. As a matter of fact, the reason why so many games use non standard OS is, apart for piracy reasons, that the programmers can use their own disk-access routines, which happen to be *much* faster than AmigaDos' ones (let alone compression considerations). The interest for a HD-installable game would be in a more indirect way, I think: it would mean that such a game uses regular disk-access routines and therefore, is multi-taskable. And yet, programmers can inhibit this, and then again, I would understand this. > games like Wings, Star Control, and others can support the HD, why > can't Lemmings? (Wings is MUCH more enjoyable off of a HD) I also like As Lemmings' author said, Lemmings does support HD. Or will very soon. +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Cedric BEUST University of Nice | | ARPANET: beust@mimosa.unice.fr $whoami | | UUCP: beust%arkonis@mimosa.unice.fr god (personal alias) | | -- "To be, or not to be...", | | That is illogical, captain! | | -- Spock | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
farren@sat.com (Michael J. Farren) (03/07/91)
dhansen@amiganet.chi.il.us writes: >I don't know why anyone would want it to take up over 2MB on their HD anyway. So I could play it any time I wanted without having to reboot. Isn't that enough reason? It's MY computer, not yours, and not Psygnosis', either. >But as a fellow programmer, you have to realize that game piracy is very >prevalent and you have to protect your work somehow. As a games programmer with fourteen years experience, I say that YOU have to realize that piracy is prevalent with or without protection. >Subtile, harmless copy protection at least allows the companies to stay in >business. Subtle? Making me reboot my computer every time I want to play AND every time I want to STOP playing is subtle? >What happened to Cinemaware? I've heard that they, with allzV >their excellent software, aren't around anymore. If this is true, could this >not be attributable to lack of protection of their perishable goods? If true, it's probably a lot more attributable to the facts that they had a large staff, and produced a small number of games, most of which were so-so, along with a very few that were successful. You can't keep a company going on one semi-hit per year. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael J. Farren farren@sat.com | | He's moody, but he's cute. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+