hjalmar@cbmswe.UUCP (Peter Hjalmarsson) (02/23/91)
(For the European developers that reads this, this is an answer to the
copy protection debate that has been going on in comp.sys.amiga.games
the latest week.)
I really don't want to add fuel to the fire, but this is an idea that I
haven't seen before, so I just thought that I would give a good idea (for
free!) to those publishers that might be reading this:
There has been said here that to give maximum performance for unexpanded
A500 users, the program must be in a custom-DOS format. Also, the program
must be copy-protected to discourage "friend-to-friend" copying. On top of
it, the program cannot multitask, because it would be too large. (Please
observe that I don't want to argue about the validity of these claims, it
is only the arguments put forward by those who are for copy protection.)
OK then, sell the program that way, much as it is today.
Now, the unexpanded A500 users are happy, what about the "power users"?
They don't want super-fast floppy loaders, they want HD loading, and multi-
tasking.
They have more memory, so a version that multitasks won't be a problem.
They have a HD, so they don't need custom DOS loaders.
In the package, also include a "HD-install" disk. This disk will pack up
the custom-DOS game disk, and install it on the HD in normal file format.
It will also replace the custom-DOS loader module with a normal-DOS loader,
with a _key_disk_copy_protection_scheme_, asking for the original disk
once each time the game is started. This version of the game will not load
unless there is more than 1MB of memory, _thus_proventing_copying_to_the
neighbour_next_door_who_has_an_unexpanded_A500.
The latter is important since this version will probably be somewhat easier
to crack. The "power users" however will not pirate it in the same amount
as the "unexpanded" users, since this is more sophisticated users, that will
want to have a manual, and so on.
One might even choose to charge extra for this "HD-install" disk, by making
the users who want it, order it via a coupon in the package. Remember, this
is the type of users that is willing to pay a little extra for added
functionality.
So what do you think, is this a feasible way to solve the problem? Is the
programming problems too big to make it a financially good solution?
Peter Hjalmarsson, Amiga Developer Support, Commodore Sweden
...{uunet|rutgers|pyramid}cbmvax!cbmehq!cbmswe!hjalmar
No, I don't have a .sig, I make this up as I go along!cg@ami-cg.UUCP (Chris Gray) (02/24/91)
I hate joining this type of pointless argument, but here goes! It appears to be a fact that the vast majority of Amiga owners own A500's with no hard disk, little if any expansion memory and perhaps only 1 floppy drive. What conclusions would a game manufacturer draw from this? They would likely conclude that the best market satisfaction and hence the most sales, are gotten by making their games work as well as possible on that minimal machine. [This does not necessarily follow, but hang on a bit.] The fastest-loading, fewest disk swapping can be done in this environment by using custom loaders and disk formats. If the company judges that the irritation of expanded system owners at this is outweighed by the happiness of the minimal system owners, then they are doing "the right thing" by using custom loaders, etc. Thus, the are doing "the right thing" by producing games that are not HD-installable. [Note that this says nothing about support for multiple floppies, expanded memory, faster processors, etc.] The above conclusion may not be correct. If a very small percentage of the minimal-system owners buy the games [perhaps due to most of them pirating the games], and a relatively large percentage of the big-system owners buy the games, then the custom loaders, etc. could be "wrong". The numbers would have to be very skewed for this to be the case, however. So, we come back to an unanswerable question: what are the numbers? The software companies probably don't have any magic way of knowing them - they have the same guesses we have, plus the hard information from the registration cards they receive. If their best information says that the majority of their games are purchased by minimal-system owners, and that those people strongly prefer fast-loading games to slow-loading ones, then the "right thing" is to use custom loaders, and bedamned with hard disks! -- Chris Gray usenet: alberta!ami-cg!cg CIS: 74007,1165
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (02/27/91)
Nope, not a help. A key disk scheme still leaves the purchaser dependent on fragile and failure prone media for the workability of his game investment, which is the second biggest gripe (after beating the floppy drives to death) most buyers have agaist floppy based copy protection.. Compare the excellent scheme in "Champions of Krynn", where the game depends so heavily on the large, rich manual that, not only the "word in manual" startup, but the whole enjoyment of the game, depend on the "journal" which is part of the manual. Using this games copy protection is _fun_. Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
patrick_meloy@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca (Patrick Meloy) (02/28/91)
>One might even choose to charge extra for this "HD-install" disk, by making >the users who want it, order it via a coupon in the package. Remember, this That sounds like a very good idea, but, you have to remember that these things are sold world wide. Mailing a coupon off to the UK with an international money order may be more than people are willing to tolerate for HD installability (Not me, my stamps are ready and waiting ;) I'm all for the idea with one exception. Key disks are better than exclusive use of the original disk, but they still present a danger to it. Stick with the code-wheel/manual word protection. I've never had a problem keeping those items somewhere in the house (they usually go back into the box or get pinned to the wall beside my computer. Take M1 Tank Platoon as an example. I can copy it, toss it on the HD, and even multitask it with the multiline BBS that I run on my 2500. I have yet to see a pirated copy of it! --------------------------------------- | patrick_meloy@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca | | 'The Outbound' BBS Vancouver BC | ---------------------------------------
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) (03/01/91)
In article <213@cbmswe.UUCP> hjalmar@cbmswe.UUCP (Peter Hjalmarsson) writes: } }(For the European developers that reads this, this is an answer to the }copy protection debate that has been going on in comp.sys.amiga.games }the latest week.) } }I really don't want to add fuel to the fire, but this is an idea that I }haven't seen before, so I just thought that I would give a good idea (for }free!) to those publishers that might be reading this: } }There has been said here that to give maximum performance for unexpanded }A500 users, the program must be in a custom-DOS format. Also, the program }must be copy-protected to discourage "friend-to-friend" copying. On top of }it, the program cannot multitask, because it would be too large. (Please }observe that I don't want to argue about the validity of these claims, it }is only the arguments put forward by those who are for copy protection.) }OK then, sell the program that way, much as it is today. } }Now, the unexpanded A500 users are happy, what about the "power users"? }They don't want super-fast floppy loaders, they want HD loading, and multi- }tasking. } }They have more memory, so a version that multitasks won't be a problem. }They have a HD, so they don't need custom DOS loaders. } }In the package, also include a "HD-install" disk. This disk will pack up }the custom-DOS game disk, and install it on the HD in normal file format. }It will also replace the custom-DOS loader module with a normal-DOS loader, }with a _key_disk_copy_protection_scheme_, asking for the original disk }once each time the game is started. This version of the game will not load }unless there is more than 1MB of memory, _thus_proventing_copying_to_the }neighbour_next_door_who_has_an_unexpanded_A500. } }The latter is important since this version will probably be somewhat easier }to crack. The "power users" however will not pirate it in the same amount }as the "unexpanded" users, since this is more sophisticated users, that will }want to have a manual, and so on. } }One might even choose to charge extra for this "HD-install" disk, by making }the users who want it, order it via a coupon in the package. Remember, this }is the type of users that is willing to pay a little extra for added }functionality. } } }So what do you think, is this a feasible way to solve the problem? Is the }programming problems too big to make it a financially good solution? } } } }Peter Hjalmarsson, Amiga Developer Support, Commodore Sweden }...{uunet|rutgers|pyramid}cbmvax!cbmehq!cbmswe!hjalmar }No, I don't have a .sig, I make this up as I go along! I could live with that.... --Moriland -- | hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu | __ | | | __/// Viva Amiga! | | Founder Of: Evil Young | \XX/ | | Mutants For A Better Tomorrow | "Single Tasking: JUST SAY NO!" |
dsherif@csserv2.ic.sunysb.edu (Darin D Sheriff) (03/02/91)
In article <1991Feb27.032156.19436@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >Nope, not a help. A key disk scheme still leaves the purchaser dependent >on fragile and failure prone media for the workability of his game >investment, which is the second biggest gripe (after beating the floppy >drives to death) most buyers have agaist floppy based copy protection.. > >Compare the excellent scheme in "Champions of Krynn", where the game >depends so heavily on the large, rich manual that, not only the "word in >manual" startup, but the whole enjoyment of the game, depend on the >"journal" which is part of the manual. Using this games copy protection >is _fun_. > >Kent, the man from xanth. ><xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> Some pirates will stop at nothing however. I personally know one that photocopied both booklets that came with the game just to get it for free. -- Darin Sheriff; Amiga 1000 owner. dsherif@csserv2.ic.sunysb.edu People don't pirate software. Computers pirate software. Disclaimer: It wasn't me. It was Chucky. He did it.
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Samuel S Sostre) (03/04/91)
In article <1991Mar2.023142.25632@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dsherif@csserv2.ic.sunysb.edu (Darin D Sheriff) writes: >In article <1991Feb27.032156.19436@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >Some pirates will stop at nothing however. I personally know one that >photocopied both booklets that came with the game just to get it for free. Anyone who has seen Full Metal Planet or Purchased it knows that the manual is indeed very large. Despite the fact that its about 30-60 copied pages, I know someone who did copy it only to have the game. It goes to show that pirates will stop at nothing. >-- >Darin Sheriff; Amiga 1000 owner. dsherif@csserv2.ic.sunysb.edu >People don't pirate software. Computers pirate software. >Disclaimer: It wasn't me. It was Chucky. He did it.
pondscum@zooid (Lima Bone) (03/08/91)
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Samuel S Sostre) writes: > In article <1991Mar2.023142.25632@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dsherif@csserv2.ic.sunysb. > >In article <1991Feb27.032156.19436@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.O > > >Some pirates will stop at nothing however. I personally know one that > >photocopied both booklets that came with the game just to get it for free. > > Anyone who has seen Full Metal Planet or Purchased it knows that the manual i > indeed very large. Despite the fact that its about 30-60 copied pages, I know > someone who did copy it only to have the game. It goes to show that pirates > will stop at nothing. > > > >-- > >Darin Sheriff; Amiga 1000 owner. dsherif@csserv2.ic.sunysb.edu > >People don't pirate software. Computers pirate software. > >Disclaimer: It wasn't me. It was Chucky. He did it. 30-60 pages at 10cents a copy isn't very horrible, dontcha know. I wouldn't call it a STOP AT NOTHING thing to do. At least they didn't wait for another pirate to type up complete docs avec walk through/hints like most pirated games have. Lima
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Napalm) (03/10/91)
In article <521gy1w162w@zooid> pondscum@zooid (Lima Bone) writes: >sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Samuel S Sostre) writes: > >> In article <1991Mar2.023142.25632@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dsherif@csserv2.ic.sunysb. >> >In article <1991Feb27.032156.19436@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.O >> >> >Some pirates will stop at nothing however. I personally know one that >> >photocopied both booklets that came with the game just to get it for free. >> >> Anyone who has seen Full Metal Planet or Purchased it knows that the manual i >> indeed very large. Despite the fact that its about 30-60 copied pages, I know >> someone who did copy it only to have the game. It goes to show that pirates >> will stop at nothing. >> >> >> >-- >> >Darin Sheriff; Amiga 1000 owner. dsherif@csserv2.ic.sunysb.edu >> >People don't pirate software. Computers pirate software. >> >Disclaimer: It wasn't me. It was Chucky. He did it. > >30-60 pages at 10cents a copy isn't very horrible, dontcha know. I wouldn't >call it a STOP AT NOTHING thing to do. At least they didn't wait for another >pirate to type up complete docs avec walk through/hints like most pirated >games have. Im not talking about the cost so much as going through the trouble of making 60 copies. I dont remember how large the manual is but Im pretty sure its on the order of 60 Xeroxed pages. $6 isnt a lot of money if you goto kinkos but its still agravating.. I mean just copying all of those pages... > Lima
michael@gem.stack.urc.tue.nl (Michael Brouwer) (03/12/91)
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Napalm) writes: >In article <521gy1w162w@zooid> pondscum@zooid (Lima Bone) writes: [stuff deleted (3d]]) >>30-60 pages at 10cents a copy isn't very horrible, dontcha know. I wouldn't >>call it a STOP AT NOTHING thing to do. At least they didn't wait for another >>pirate to type up complete docs avec walk through/hints like most pirated >>games have. >Im not talking about the cost so much as going through the trouble of making >60 copies. I dont remember how large the manual is but Im pretty sure its >on the order of 60 Xeroxed pages. $6 isnt a lot of money if you goto kinkos but >its still agravating.. I mean just copying all of those pages... If you have the time to play the game, you would probably also have time to copy the manual. Even if it is 60 (wow!) pages. I think copying a game and the manual takes less time and is not as much of a fuss as visiting a store four times to see if the game you ordered has arrived yet, then paying $50 for it and 1 week later getting an "pirated" copy of the game which includes the manual (in three different languages) and is also hard-disk installable because the copy protection has been removed. (did you read this in one breath ;-) ) > >> Lima P.S. these opinions are not my one, but my vt100's
hclausen@adspdk.UUCP (Henrik Clausen) (03/14/91)
In article <176@gem.stack.urc.tue.nl>, Michael Brouwer writes: > sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Napalm) writes: > > [stuff deleted (4th]]) > > >Im not talking about the cost so much as going through the trouble of making > >60 copies. > > If you have the time to play the game, you would probably also have time to copy > the manual. Even if it is 60 (wow!) pages. Well, but you won't get a decent third, fourth, fifth generation copy, like you do with floppies. Piracy doesn't run wild this way. Ever tried sending a printed manual over a modem? HST's are widely used by pirates. Many pirates don't even play the game, they merely distribute it!!! > I think copying a game and the manual > takes less time and is not as much of a fuss as visiting a store four times to > see if the game you ordered has arrived yet. Now, that's a real problem here in Europe. We _usually_ have access to pirated copies (true for DM, CSB, PowerMonger, SimCity & Lemmings) before they arrive at the stores! > (did you read this in one breath ;-) ) Yes, and English isn't my native language... Well, I did read it again. -Henrik > P.S. these opinions are not my one, but my vt100's Gee, I'm now arguing with a terminal... :-( ______________________________________________________________________________ | Henrik Clausen, Graffiti Data | If the Doors of Perception where cleansed, | | ...{pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax! | Man would see Reality as it is - Infinite. | \______cbmehq!adspdk!hclausen___|_________________________________W. Blake___/
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Napalm) (03/15/91)
In article <18d253db.ARN19e3@adspdk.UUCP> hclausen@adspdk.UUCP writes: >In article <176@gem.stack.urc.tue.nl>, Michael Brouwer writes: > >> sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Napalm) writes: >> >> [stuff deleted (4th]]) >> >> >Im not talking about the cost so much as going through the trouble of making >> >60 copies. >> >> If you have the time to play the game, you would probably also have time to copy >> the manual. Even if it is 60 (wow!) pages. > > Well, but you won't get a decent third, fourth, fifth generation copy, >like you do with floppies. Piracy doesn't run wild this way. Ever tried >sending a printed manual over a modem? HST's are widely used by pirates. Looking at full metal planet, I dont think you could send it over the modem unless you digitized it <the docs that is> because different pages have different "codes". Generally the piracy over the modem of this game would have the check removed like in a Powermonger pirated game my friend has. > Many pirates don't even play the game, they merely distribute it!!! This is VERY true, assuming Amiga pirates are just like c64 pirates <i still have my 128D and know all about the pirates and how they worked. I can imagine amiga pirates being the same.> >> I think copying a game and the manual >> takes less time and is not as much of a fuss as visiting a store four times to >> see if the game you ordered has arrived yet. > > Now, that's a real problem here in Europe. We _usually_ have access to >pirated copies (true for DM, CSB, PowerMonger, SimCity & Lemmings) before >they arrive at the stores! > >> (did you read this in one breath ;-) ) > > Yes, and English isn't my native language... Well, I did read it again. > > > > -Henrik > > >> P.S. these opinions are not my one, but my vt100's > > Gee, I'm now arguing with a terminal... :-( >______________________________________________________________________________ >| Henrik Clausen, Graffiti Data | If the Doors of Perception where cleansed, | >| ...{pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax! | Man would see Reality as it is - Infinite. | >\______cbmehq!adspdk!hclausen___|_________________________________W. Blake___/
sschaem@starnet.uucp (Stephan Schaem) (03/17/91)
I just wanted to state my story about game being distributed by pirates before store... Once I put some PC code to the Amiga (For a stupid, brainless, ugly game:-), and not long after saw my friend with handkuff being interogated. After serial number check of a pirate prewview, we new what publication and journalist gave or pirated the copy for evaluation! And a guy admit he went with he little cousin saying, it's hes anyversary and he saw your had in the newpaper and what that game the most in the world... the same night it was on all netwaork. You can have the best copy protection there will still find a way! Also a stupid guy where I used to work (ALL I'm saying happen other there in that braindead compagnie!) left a box of disk full of pirated materials that they exange betwen them at work!.Then people that didn't like what he pirated this time (one of the compagnie game) told the APP (Private piracy police). After the arrest, the discovery of copy parti in holland (They rent a gymnasium and isntall monitor for contest etc.. you know how big those are!) and made a bust with the police and confiscation he got a another job as developer... The same story happen to another french group, busted+confication.Well they know have a developing house! Those journalist are also the own that pirates the games (Not all of them of course:-) How SICK can the all thing can get! Programer that pirate theyr OWN stuff?! ALL IS TRUE.No exageration, but restraint! like story about american sending original to be cracked in germany so they can put them on network here... Software houses that pirate others works... (cant prove that, well no one but the word is strong!) I could go for 7 month actually, and it get sicker and sicker! After people receive verbal threat about changing compagnie I left, well actually 12 people left in a 2 month period! Anyone caring to tell there story about piracy and software?
sschaem@starnet.uucp (Stephan Schaem) (03/17/91)
About manual with codes... You have Pirates: that are the lazy, stupid bastard! and you have Crackers: the smart guy how dont know the result of hes action! Crackers can take out any protection, change the software format so no more unstandart tracks are there and can be send my modem with any special requirment... They have contest for money now, the one they can to it the fastest! Also know protection are NOT to last more than 1 to 3 month! usally less than a day or week (exepted Dragonlairs and ....). Because some people will buy the game if its not pirated (If they really want it). But usally they will wait and wait, but never spend anything on software. So know they dont want to spend time for protection, or money!
pondscum@zooid (Lima Bone) (03/19/91)
sschaem@starnet.uucp (Stephan Schaem) writes: > > > About manual with codes... > You have Pirates: that are the lazy, stupid bastard! > and you have Crackers: the smart guy how dont know the result of hes > action! > Crackers can take out any protection, change the software format > so no more unstandart tracks are there and can be send my modem > with any special requirment... > They have contest for money now, the one they can to it the fastest! > > Also know protection are NOT to last more than 1 to 3 month! > usally less than a day or week (exepted Dragonlairs and ....). > Because some people will buy the game if its not pirated (If they > really want it). > But usally they will wait and wait, but never spend anything on > software. > So know they dont want to spend time for protection, or money! 3 months?? Are you crazy...boards here in Toronto boast the fact that they can get games here about 1 -2 HOURS after the protection is broken. Lima
sschaem@starnet.uucp (Stephan Schaem) (03/21/91)
Are you a game developer? I tought so... Protection are SUPOSED to last only a few month. But of course they are broken faster than that! I know about how long it take to deprotect a game, and the one that crack TUFF games in less than an hours have hardware (if not, its not a tuff protection!). I found that only a very few make good protection, and the one that make good one could not be broken without 'monitor' or 'sonde'.