Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) (03/20/91)
I'm astonished at the almost TOTAL ABSENCE of messages pertaining to CHAOS STRIKES BACK and DUNGEON MASTER on Usenet. For a while there, every 2nd of 3rd message was about both of these. Has everyone who was writing solved them already? Now, all I see on here is questions about Lemmings - which, I grant, is a fairly decent game - but certainly not in the class of CHAOS or DM. Just my opinion. Anyway, let's keep those CHAOS/DM letters coming!!! -- Stewart Mckinnon - via FidoNet node 1:221/171 UUCP : watmath!xenitec!zswamp!178.0!Stewart.Mckinnon Internet: Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org
ricks@ncrcae.Columbia.NCR.COM (Rick Silverstein) (03/21/91)
In article <7072.27E83E50@zswamp.fidonet.org> Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) writes: >I'm astonished at the almost TOTAL ABSENCE of messages pertaining >to CHAOS STRIKES BACK and DUNGEON MASTER on Usenet. For a while there, >every 2nd of 3rd message was about both of these. Has everyone who >was writing solved them already? Now, all I see on here is questions >about Lemmings - which, I grant, is a fairly decent game - but certainly >not in the class of CHAOS or DM. Just my opinion. Anyway, let's keep >those CHAOS/DM letters coming!!! > I posted one a day or two ago, but I'd like to expand on it because it's causing a lot of problems. How do you kill the Spell Vines on Level 12 in DMI??? The handbook says use fireballs, but as soon as I throw one, they turn transparent and it goes right through them. I've even tried to freeze life with the magic box when they are solid but this has no effect either. Yes, this is a desperate plea for help!!!!
dean@coplex.uucp (Dean Brooks) (03/23/91)
Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) writes: >I'm astonished at the almost TOTAL ABSENCE of messages pertaining >to CHAOS STRIKES BACK and DUNGEON MASTER on Usenet. For a while there, >every 2nd of 3rd message was about both of these. Has everyone who >was writing solved them already? Now, all I see on here is questions >about Lemmings - which, I grant, is a fairly decent game - but certainly >not in the class of CHAOS or DM. Just my opinion. Anyway, let's keep >those CHAOS/DM letters coming!!! Ok, heres a question for ya: I am down around the 9th level of Dungeon Master, but I fear that I have forgotten to pick up the rope that I have seen while playing previous games of DM. Unfortunately, it appears that there are rooms in DM on the 9th or 8th levels that require a rope to clibm into/out of. Is this true? Do I HAVE to have a rope to complete the game? Anyway, thanks for the info... -- dean@coplex.UUCP Dean A. Brooks Copper Electronics, Inc. Louisville, Ky UUCP: !uunet!coplex!dean
joden@pernnet.UUCP (Jon Oden) (03/23/91)
Yes! Chaos and DM are both great games... but if most of the users want to talk about lemmings... they will.... Lemmings I think is a kind of game that more people will take a liking to... I have a freind who loves Chaos... He has temporarily stopped playing it to finish Bane of the Cosmic Forge.. I'll see if I can get him on this sub...
Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) (03/23/91)
RE: Dungeon Master - having the rope to win......No, it's not essential to have the rope to win. Unlike CHAOS STRIKES BACK, where you MUST have the rope, DM has only one or two spots where it is useful. One of these is on the RAT LEVEL where there is a jewell in a chest behind a gate witha lever. Pulling the lever drops the chest down a pit, so you go up one level and drop down a pit to be on the other side of the gate. However, you could easily just fall through! Doesn't kill you! Even in CHAOS, you can survive a fall through several levels! The rope however, doesn't have a CLIMB UP option (too bad) so, once down a pit, you'll have to look around to find your way back up! -- Stewart Mckinnon - via FidoNet node 1:221/171 UUCP : watmath!xenitec!zswamp!178.0!Stewart.Mckinnon Internet: Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org
tony@uc780.umd.edu (03/23/91)
>In article <7072.27E83E50@zswamp.fidonet.org> Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) writes: > >How do you kill the Spell Vines on Level 12 in >DMI??? The handbook says use fireballs, but as soon as I throw one, they >turn transparent and it goes right through them. I've even tried to >freeze life with the magic box when they are solid but this has no effect >either. Yes, this is a desperate plea for help!!!! As someone said here a short while ago, you need to DISPELL them one way or another. This can be accomplished by using Vorpal Blades, casting DES EW (high power level), or using any of the magic staffs that have the DISPELL function. You'll be well served to have a fireshield surrounding you in case they fireball you. Also, if you can get them to fight you in an open area, you can sidestep their poison gas spells. --Tony (tmurray@uc780.umd.edu) "Polymorph your mother, fireball your dad. That time we killed those those thousand orcs was the greatest time we had....." -- Boogey Knights
frank@morpheus.UUCP (Frank McPherson) (03/24/91)
In article <7162@ncrcae.Columbia.NCR.COM> ricks@ncrcae.Columbia.NCR.COM (Rick Silverstein) writes: > >I posted one a day or two ago, but I'd like to expand on it because it's >causing a lot of problems. How do you kill the Spell Vines on Level 12 in >DMI??? The handbook says use fireballs, but as soon as I throw one, they >turn transparent and it goes right through them. I've even tried to >freeze life with the magic box when they are solid but this has no effect >either. Yes, this is a desperate plea for help!!!! -- It's been a while since I've played DMI, and I don't have the handbook you describe (descriptions of monsters is not to be found in the user manual which comes with dmI), so I don't know what they are from the name you describe. However, I have a suggestion which might help you out. It's possible that the beasts you're facing are non-corporeal, in which case only specific weapons and spells will harm them. Vorpal blades do nice damage to non-corporeal beasties, and there is a spell which will also probably have the desired effect of damaging them. -- Frank McPherson INTERNET: emcphers@fox.cs.vt.edu --
Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) (03/25/91)
RE: KILLING THE 'SPELL VINES'....I posted a reply to your letter, a day or so ago, Rick. In case you did not receive it, I'll repeat. These are actually AIR ELEMENTALS, and are of the elemental class of monsters. All of the Elemental Class monsters can be dealt with using any one, or a combination of, the following: 1. Use VORPAL BLADES. You should have 2 of these by now. DISRUPT is the most effective. 2. Use a magic item that has a DISPELL option. This will cast a WEAKEN NON-MATERIAL BEINGS spell. 3. Use a WEAKEN NON-MATERIAL BEINGS spell, that you cast from your own MANA. Yes, fireballs can be effective, but if the AIR ELEMENTALS become transparent, there is no effect. However, the above methods will deliver some damage regardless. One warning: keep your weaker characters to the back, and try not to get hit more than once from these suckers! They can take out a couple of the weaker characters without any problem. If your strength is down, then fall back on the old standby: RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! Good luck. -- Stewart Mckinnon - via FidoNet node 1:221/171 UUCP : watmath!xenitec!zswamp!178.0!Stewart.Mckinnon Internet: Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org
Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) (03/25/91)
RE: KILLING 'SPELL VINES'.....I'm afraid you've quoted the wrong person. It was a chap by the name of Rick Silverstein that had asked that question. I had replied to his letter, so you got the person mixed up. Just thought I'd clarify! -- Stewart Mckinnon - via FidoNet node 1:221/171 UUCP : watmath!xenitec!zswamp!178.0!Stewart.Mckinnon Internet: Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org
Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) (03/25/91)
RE: STOPPING PLAYING CHAOS.....Well this is inconceivable to me! I was unable to eat sleep or do much else during both DM and CHAOS! (slight exaggeration, but not by much!) I have seen NOTHING in ANY category which measures up to the EMOTION that goes with both DM and CHAOS! I had the following symptoms while playing both: sweaty palms (messed up my mouse pad) racing heartbeat, cold sweat, emotions ranging from sheer fright to jubilus victory cries! Yes, both were a real experience. But, it was due to the flawless execution of the program! These guys (Software Heaven) at FTL are GENIUSES!! I have NEVER played ANYTHING that can even come close. -- Stewart Mckinnon - via FidoNet node 1:221/171 UUCP : watmath!xenitec!zswamp!178.0!Stewart.Mckinnon Internet: Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org
johnu@syma.sussex.ac.uk (John E Upham) (03/26/91)
From article <7072.27E83E50@zswamp.fidonet.org>, by Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon): > I'm astonished at the almost TOTAL ABSENCE of messages pertaining > to CHAOS STRIKES BACK and DUNGEON MASTER on Usenet. For a while there, > every 2nd of 3rd message was about both of these. Has everyone who > was writing solved them already? Now, all I see on here is questions > about Lemmings - which, I grant, is a fairly decent game - but certainly > not in the class of CHAOS or DM. Just my opinion. Anyway, let's keep > those CHAOS/DM letters coming!!! > O.K. Stuart, just to keep you happy.... I finished DM about 2 months ago with at least a << master at everything (incl. Ninja) and with > 550 health points for each person. I started Chaos and rapidly realised it was a different ball game. Much more tricky requiring strategy as opposed to tatics which DM needed. I took the decision to start with the ROS path 'cos I heard it was tricky to get to from the others. I then stopped playing 'cos I was staying up to 4 am playing it and then getting up at 11am ! Not good really for my D. Phil. Anyway I want to finish it but am using an Atari ST which is quite inferior for DM compared with my Amiga which is at my parents. To hear the monsters is useful and the atari doesnt war cry ! Ok Question .... Is there an advantage to exiting the starting room by going out the door opended by putting the torch in the wall holder ? Is there a a way of getting the flask in the joining corridor without falling down the pit ? Because i only have one drive doing the `supplies for the quick' is a bit tedious trying to avoid pits. Anyway some thoughts would be appreciated... P.S. I've not started with Lemmings yet !!! John Upham, (Chemical Physics Ph.D) University of Sussex, Brighton, UK. Email: kapn1%cluster.susx.ac.uk@uk.ac (BITnet) kapn1@uk.ac.susx.cluster (Janet) johnu%syma.susx.ac.uk@uk.ac (BITnet) johnu@uk.ac.susx.syma (Janet) Tel: +44 273 680500 (eve) Tel: +44 273 678332 (day)
int288n@monu4.cc.monash.edu.au (aj blanch) (03/27/91)
This is mainly a test guys so ignore it. ' But I am just another person raving about FTL's brillance in giving us the amazing DM and Chaos. There is little else that can compare to the way the games draw you in, and make you a part of your adventure through these treacherous dungeons. Those little sounds which alert you to a creatures presence, and the rest of the shit in the game that makes it great, gees it just a test anyway!
Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) (03/29/91)
RE: PLAYING CHAOS ON AN ATARI..... OUCH. Oh, well, better than nowt,
eh? Anyway.......
1. EXITING THROUGH THE 'TORCH' DOORWAY....you must. The other route
is not wise. You will be able to come back to the 'main' door
(which generates 2 worms each time you step there) later.
2. GETTING PAST THE PIT TO GET THE FLASK.....no trick except a quick
mouse! You have to time it. I stood in front of the first pit
and faced the right wall. You can see when the pit closes at the bottom
left corner of your screen. Face this way, because the flask is easier
to pick up. Then, after grabbing the flask, the 2nd pit will have
closed about 4 beats after the 1st one closes. You'll still be able
to see if its closed at the corner of your screen. Then scoot across.
Of course, you can come down this way again and then go LEFT to take
you back to the starting room.
RE: Staying up to 4 am - YES! I've been there too! Anyway, I was happy
to see your letter! I hope I'll hear more from you!
--
Stewart Mckinnon - via FidoNet node 1:221/171
UUCP : watmath!xenitec!zswamp!178.0!Stewart.Mckinnon
Internet: Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.orgStewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) (03/30/91)
RE: A TEST.....Well it may just have been a test, but I agree with you 1000000% all the WAY!!!! I pray to the Grey Lord that a third installment will be coming soon!! And PLEASE, FTL - DON'T PUT IT OUT FOR THE ATARI ST FIRST!!! NOBODY I know that played it on the ST thought it was even close to the Amiga version, so - if you're listening....... -- Stewart Mckinnon - via FidoNet node 1:221/171 UUCP : watmath!xenitec!zswamp!178.0!Stewart.Mckinnon Internet: Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org
pondscum@zooid (Lima Bone) (03/30/91)
int288n@monu4.cc.monash.edu.au (aj blanch) writes: > This is mainly a test guys so ignore it. > ' > But I am just another person raving about FTL's brillance in > giving us the amazing DM and Chaos. There is little else that > can compare to the way the games draw you in, and make you a part > of your adventure through these treacherous dungeons. Those little > sounds which alert you to a creatures presence, and the rest of the > shit in the game that makes it great, gees it just a test anyway! I hate Dungeon Master...well I don't hate it, actually I love it. Its kinda boring after a while. Anyways..I just got Chaos Strikes Back and you would have thought they would have improved a bit on the graphics/gameplay a bit. Argh! Its exactly the same..except the worms are yellow instead of green. Wow...major tech breakthrough. Lima Bone
tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd A. Green) (03/31/91)
In article <7131.27F41BE9@zswamp.fidonet.org> Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) writes: >RE: A TEST.....Well it may just have been a test, but I agree with >you 1000000% all the WAY!!!! I pray to the Grey Lord that a third >installment will be coming soon!! And PLEASE, FTL - DON'T PUT IT OUT >FOR THE ATARI ST FIRST!!! NOBODY I know that played it on the ST thought >it was even close to the Amiga version, so - if you're listening....... Actually I've played (and completed) DM on the Amiga, IIGS, and ST. I found all three versions to be excellent, with the exception that the IIGS could not really keep up since it only works at 2.6 Mhz (slowing down to 1mhz for i/o to remain IIe compatible), but once I speed the IIGS up to 9Mhz it buzzed along quite well. (Though the Amiga still was considerably faster :) ). But I agree; it would make more sense to come out with an Amiga version first. BUT there should be a Mac version (in color) of DM I, before a 3rd comes out for the Amiga, IMO. --Todd =============================================================================== Todd A. Green "<_CyberWolf_>" --> Pascal <- InterNet: Unix Systems Administration --> Unix <--- tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu Macintosh Systems Administration --> VMS <---- tagreen@rose.ucs.indiana.edu WCC:136.04 Phone:(812) 855-0949 --> C <------ BitNet: "This is the end, my only --> Mac <---- tagreen@iubacs.BITNET friend, the end" --> NeXT <--- NeXT Mail: -Jim Morrison --> SunOS <-- tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu ===============================================================================
Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) (04/01/91)
RE: COMPLAINING ABOUT CHAOS.....Well we ARE fussy, aren't we. I thought that the whole concept of Dungeon Master was absolutely fantastic. Graphics, sound and animation are superb. There is no game that can equal the realism that both Dungeon master and Chaos offer. I am happy that they did not change anything. After all, it's difficult to improve on PERFECTION. -- Stewart Mckinnon - via FidoNet node 1:221/171 UUCP : watmath!xenitec!zswamp!178.0!Stewart.Mckinnon Internet: Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org
Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) (04/01/91)
RE:PLAYED ALL THREE VERSIONS....Well, I was only aware of the ST and Amiga versions. As regards the ST, people complained that it was lacking in some features - such as good sound and I understand there is no WAR CRY option. Also, the Oracle was either limited or not available. I REALLY don't think the MAC could do either DM or CHAOS justice, do you? -- Stewart Mckinnon - via FidoNet node 1:221/171 UUCP : watmath!xenitec!zswamp!178.0!Stewart.Mckinnon Internet: Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org
colas@lemur.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) (04/02/91)
In article <1991Mar30.185600.23140@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd A. Green) writes: > But I agree; it would make more > sense to come out with an Amiga version first. No, No, No!!! At least we get an enhanced version, the atari version serves as a beta-test :-) On CSB we got the map scrolls+spells which were not on the ST version... -- Colas Nahaboo, colas@sa.inria.fr, Bull Research, Koala Project, GWM X11 WM Phone:(33) 93.65.77.70(.66 Fax), INRIA, B.P.109 - 06561 Valbonne Cedex, FRANCE.
tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd A. Green) (04/02/91)
In article <7145.27F81050@zswamp.fidonet.org> Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) writes: >RE: COMPLAINING ABOUT CHAOS.....Well we ARE fussy, aren't we. I thought >that the whole concept of Dungeon Master was absolutely fantastic. >Graphics, sound and animation are superb. There is no game that can >equal the realism that both Dungeon master and Chaos offer. I am happy >that they did not change anything. After all, it's difficult to improve >on PERFECTION. > Ditto! (Though I'm still pushing for a networked version). The only real thing that is hard to control (up to 4) people in real time. This puts you at a bit of a disadvantage when you are trying to change weapons or make new spells in the heat of combat. But it sure does get the old blood flowing :). I found an easy way around this was that you could alway coax the creatures into fighting you. You could easily cast all your spells, take a couple swipes and back up a "square" or two. Ready your spells, cast, attack and step back. All long the monsters are still walking forward trying to catch you. This makes for easy combat til you get to the dragon (he's rather fast) or beholders (with spells). Todd ----- Internet: tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu NeXTMail: tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu
tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd A. Green) (04/02/91)
In article <7146.27F81052@zswamp.fidonet.org> Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) writes: >RE:PLAYED ALL THREE VERSIONS....Well, I was only aware of the ST and >Amiga versions. As regards the ST, people complained that it was lacking >in some features - such as good sound and I understand there is no >WAR CRY option. Also, the Oracle was either limited or not available. >I REALLY don't think the MAC could do either DM or CHAOS justice, >do you? > Not trying to start another Amiga vs. Mac war but the Mac is more than capable of doing DM and CHAOS justice. If DM will run on the IIGS (running at a whopping 2.6Mhz with 1Mhz for i/o and a 16 bit bus) then my 16Mhz, 32-bit bus, 24-bit color IIcx should be able to handle the job. The sound quality is good too with 22.1khz, 8bit sound. (I believe it's more or less the same as the Amiga (the sound that is). Both have 4 channel stereo right? The IIGS version was more or less an exact copy (visually) of the Amiga version. It contained the War Cry (and you're right if memory serves the ST didn't have the War Cry). The only difference between the Amiga and IIGS version (again it's been about 1 1/2 years since I've played this) was that the way the mouse worked was a little different due to only having one button. Secondly it played considerably slower (though like I said adding an accelerator to the IIGS made it fly) Finally when you picked up an object with the hand cursor, instead of turning into a colored version of the object, it was still blue. Besides this I think they were visually identical. As far as the low end Macs go (i.e. 1bit color Macs ;) ). Yeah I don't think that they would have the spectacular brilliance that the color version would have, but nonetheless the playability would be the same. The machine would be hardware wise capable of handling the game, but the lack of color would be the shame. Todd ----- Internet: tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu NeXTMail: tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu
johnsonc@topaz.ucq.edu.au (04/05/91)
In article <7146.27F81052@zswamp.fidonet.org>, Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) writes: > RE:PLAYED ALL THREE VERSIONS....Well, I was only aware of the ST and > Amiga versions. As regards the ST, people complained that it was lacking > in some features - such as good sound and I understand there is no > WAR CRY option. Also, the Oracle was either limited or not available. > I REALLY don't think the MAC could do either DM or CHAOS justice, > do you? > The ST version DOES have a WAR CRY option. You can click on it with the mouse and it will take it as a turn. The only problem is that there is no sound. The only sounds I have heard so far have been the groans, screams (monsters), blows from weapons and kicks, etc. Probably every other sound BUT the war cry. (This is not a flame). But while we're on the subject. Could someone tell me how to get past the door in the ROOM OF THE GEM chamber of level 2? I have heard that there was a gem to be stuck in the hole next to the door but I haven't found that even and I've been through the whole of level 2 so far. Any assistance would be appreciated. Chris.
jgreene@dorm.rutgers.edu (Jeffrey Greene) (04/05/91)
johnsonc@topaz.ucq.edu.au writes: >But while we're on the subject. Could someone tell me how to get past the >door in the ROOM OF THE GEM chamber of level 2? I have heard that there was >a gem to be stuck in the hole next to the door but I haven't found that even >and I've been through the whole of level 2 so far. Any assistance would >be appreciated. The gem is in the ROOM OF THE GEM. Just keep looking.
pdc@sgi.com (Paul Close) (04/07/91)
tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd A. Green) writes: >Not trying to start another Amiga vs. Mac war but the Mac is more than >capable of doing DM and CHAOS justice. FTL apparently agrees with you. I was a "playtester" for CSB, and they came and gave a Q&A session for my computer club (they're in San Diego). One of the surprising bits that came out of the session is that FTL has a "master" program they use to create these games. Once the game is created, they port the machine-specific part. The machine they develop on? A Mac II of some sort (I don't remember the specifics). They felt that the Mac II was kind of the highest common denominator (they use a 24 bit graphics system). They wanted a base that would do justice to any system. We booed them :-) As far as another Dungeon Master? Don't count on it. They felt that either a space-based or medieval would be more likely, although as they say, anything's possible. Should be interesting! -- Paul Close pdc@sgi.com ...!{ames, decwrl, uunet}!sgi!pdc There's only one thing that puzzles you... Your name isn't Dunric!
Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) (04/07/91)
RE: Room of the Gem: You are referring to the area with 2 parts - one way has the entrance accessable only with a gem key to open it. The other way leads you through a small maze. You have to locate the gem and insert it into the 'keyhole'. It's not 'stuck' in the wall anywhere - but you have to find it! hint: there IS a secret door! -- Stewart Mckinnon - via FidoNet node 1:221/171 UUCP : watmath!xenitec!zswamp!178.0!Stewart.Mckinnon Internet: Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org
johnsonc@topaz.ucq.edu.au (04/09/91)
In article <7175.27FFF96D@zswamp.fidonet.org>, Stewart.Mckinnon@p0.f178.n221.z1.fidonet.org (Stewart Mckinnon) writes: > RE: Room of the Gem: You are referring to the area with 2 parts - > one way has the entrance accessable only with a gem key to open it. > The other way leads you through a small maze. You have to locate the > gem and insert it into the 'keyhole'. It's not 'stuck' in the wall > anywhere - but you have to find it! hint: there IS a secret door! > Thank you! I just found it last night and can't believe that it was right under my nose when I mapped and searched through the room. At one point I actually started sending explosion spells at the walls which had gouges in them as well as that door. And there was another time when I got so mad I went into the CREATURE CAVERN and just fireballed the blue beasts. It's amazing but I can't figure out where they come from. At times I'm ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that I've wiped them all out and then when I'm heading back inside (when I was looking for a solution to the GEM) there were five more of the turkeys to fireball!! I even tried waiting outside in the passage to see if any more came out to play but to no avail. Anyhow, thanks to everyone who offered help. Chris.