bull@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (04/11/91)
I seem to have come across what *might* be a bug in Harpoon.
I was playing the USSR commander in the North Atlantic Convoy
scenerio #3 (Bay of Biscay). A Carrier group sailed over the top of
2 of my subs, so I returned the favour by sending them some greeting
torpedoes ;). The subs were both Victor IIIs. After having fired all
the loaded Type 65 torpedoes on both subs (4 on each sub), the game put up a
"We have no ASuW" message window, 8 times every 30 seconds (simulator time)
until the tubes were reloaded. The problem was that the only way I could
get rid of the message windows was to click on the OK box in them with the
mouse, and the game would stop while these windows waited to be acknowledged
with the mouse. Changing the time to longer intervals only suceeded in
getting 16 windows for every simulated minute. The worst part was that
both subs were in the same unit, so I really should have only had to
answer 1 message for the entire unit, not 1 message per torpedo tube as
appeared to be the case at the time. If it's of any interest, I applied
Felix Hack's patches earlier that day, before this happened.
I had a tired arm and a short temper by the time the message
windows stopped popping up.
Bull@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au OR bull@monu1.cc.monash.oz
Alias: Gareth Bull, The Opal Dragon
DOD# 251 '84 VF 750 Closet Ducatisti
Disclaimer: "It's a cruel world when you can't afford a Ducati."felixh@sunspot.ssl.berkeley.edu (Felix Hack) (04/12/91)
I've never seen anything like this bug, but then I find a new bug in Harpoon everytime I play it . . . . It's unlikely that my patches could cause this because the weapons loadouts on subs were not touched (has anyone figured out the correct codes? I just figured out airplane weapon codes, but the codes for sub weapon pointers seem incomprehensible). At best I may have monkeyed with the range or hit chance of the type 65's, but I don't think so because torpedo data was about the only correct data (as defined by the 1990-91 Harpoon Data Annex for the boardgame) in the entire game! Odd too that there would be a delay for reloading; type 65 torps go in the Victor III's 65cm torpedo tubes. Once they're fired, the only other weapon that fits there are the anti-sub SSN16's. The 533mm torps which are capable vs ships come out of the two 533mm (surprise) tubes. In other words, there shouldn't be any sort of delay. Actually, the game is really screwed up in firing rates and reloading. I'm always able to shoot lots of torpedoes and missiles at the same time, not just a few at a time, and there doesn't seem to be any reload time needed for sub torpedo weapons as far as I can tell. It seems to me that sub operations are about the most screwed up part of Harpoon. I just get really frustrated by oversights in what I consider critical areas if you want to accuratlely model ASW ops. The data patches were done with the hope that fixing the sonars would help the situation, but it really doesn't, because the basic detection system is wrong (as documented previously, even with a very slim chance of detection, getting a shot every 30 seconds means that you ultimately have a very high chance of achieving detection once a target comes within maximum sonar range.) For those having problems with scenarios running just subs (especially in GIUK), I have all sorts of problems too. I think the simplifications in the game favor the Soviets over NATO because the Soviets have more platforms to take advantage of spurious perfect targetting intelligence. I also dislike that all ASW weapons seem to be bearing-only capable, which means they can be fired at unlocalized contacts. In real life only a heavy wire-guided torpedo would have a chance at such a target if the range is not point-blank, and you'd still probably need to get an idea of target range at some point to tell the torpedo when to start searching. Light air-dropped torpedoes, SSN14, SSN15, SSN16, etc., Sea Lance, and so on need to be employed almost right on top of their targets, so exact localization should be required. But no, Harpoon abstracts all that away so now the Soviets can drop SSN15 nukes on the most spurious NATO contacts. Oh well. I guess after waiting so long I had hoped Harpoon would be better. Right now Simulation Canada's Grey Seas Grey Skies is about as good in some ways, and better in others, while lacking the often disfunctional graphics of Harpoon. Too bad Amiga GSGS isn't out. Felix
pfaff@think.com ( ) (04/12/91)
In article <1991Apr12.082251.22705@agate.berkeley.edu> felixh@sunspot.ssl.berkeley.edu (Felix Hack) writes: > I also dislike that all ASW weapons seem to be bearing-only capable, >which means they can be fired at unlocalized contacts. In real life only >a heavy wire-guided torpedo would have a chance at such a target if >the range is not point-blank, and you'd still probably need to get an >idea of target range at some point to tell the torpedo when to start >searching. Light air-dropped torpedoes, SSN14, SSN15, SSN16, etc., Sea >Lance, and so on need to be employed almost right on top of their targets, >so exact localization should be required. But no, Harpoon abstracts all >that away so now the Soviets can drop SSN15 nukes on the most >spurious NATO contacts. Oh well. > > Perhaps I missunderstand what you're saying, but I get really frustrated when I have a soild sonar contact from a ship and the P-3 Orions that I sent out to destroy the sub have to "search" for it (I've lost a few sub contacts this way). This to me seems to simulate dropping torps right on top of a target. The only bug that really gets me in the game is if you forget and modify something such as radar on planes that are in a "launching" status they seem to go into limbo. You end up losing the entire group for the rest of the game. I've also seen Harpoon guru when large numbers of air groups are deployed in the North Atlantic convoy scenarios, although this doesn't "seem" to be a problem in GUIK.
rrmorris@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Rodney Raym Morrison) (04/12/91)
I play harpoon, also, and generally enjoy it. Someone mentioned AMIGA SGSG. Could someone post info about this (first, what is it?).
hounsell@nmerh4.BNR.CA (Rob Hounsell) (04/13/91)
I'm curious about how Harpoon handles ships moving over land, etc. I was playing the NATO commander in one of the Med battleset scenarios. At one point one of my task forces was passing by an island, and the game started telling me about certain ships that had run aground. It didn't seem to damage them at all, but I changed course to clear the island anyway. HOWEVER, later in the game I watched a Syrian missle boat group steam right across Cyprus to get at some of my boats!!! What gives??? Rob +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Rob Hounsell UUNET: ...!chekov!hounsell | | NT Product Support Technology BNR WAN: hounsell@nmerh53 | | PHONE: (613) 765-2904 | | ESN: 395-2904 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
kyp@stsci.EDU (Mark Kyprianou) (04/13/91)
From article <1991Apr12.082251.22705@agate.berkeley.edu>, by felixh@sunspot.ssl.berkeley.edu (Felix Hack): > > I've never seen anything like this bug, but then I find a new bug in Harpoon > everytime I play it . . . . It's unlikely that my patches could cause this > because the weapons loadouts on subs were not touched (has anyone figured > out the correct codes? I just figured out airplane weapon codes, but > the codes for sub weapon pointers seem incomprehensible). > Check out DUMP_HARPOON on ab20 in amiga/games/cheats. It dumps the GIUK.dat in a form suitable for a printer. -- Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore, MD 21218 Mark ARPA: kyp@stsci.edu BITNET: kyp@stsci SPAN: STOSC::kyp Kyprianou UUCP: {arizona,decvax,hao}!noao!stsci!kyp
felixh@sunspot.ssl.berkeley.edu (Felix Hack) (04/14/91)
The problem of aircraft needing to search for localized subs before they'll drop weapons is the 'inverse' of what I had mentioned before about weapon capabilities. Try ordering the planes to fly to the location of the sub by setting a path, and then order them to drop weapons. The lack of intelligence in the aircraft is a problem, but it is also a problem that the torpedoes dropped from those aircraft could be deployed several miles away from the target (in real life these could never hit) and they'll run straight for the sub.
davis@netw23.uucp (04/19/91)
> (as defined by the 1990-91 Harpoon Data Annex for the boardgame)
Gee can you tell me were to find the boardgame. I can only
find the minture rules. :-) :-) :-) :-)