xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (06/06/91)
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: > hoffmann@acl.kodak.com (marty hoffmann) writes: >> If I were paranoid, I would say Psygnosis did >> this key disk protection thing on purpose, so no >> one will buy the hard disk installable Lemmings >> and they can claim that hard disk installability >> (if that's a word) is not something that people >> really want. That's if I were paranoid. That's exactly the effect it has on my plans to buy lemmings -- shoots them dead. Psygnosis _still_ hasn't figured out what people _hate_ about their games. > You might have missed it, but a few months back > there was a big thread on this newsgroup blasting > Psygnosis for their lack of HD support. A good > friend of mine was part of that thread and the end > result was that several people frm Psygnosis saw > it, replied, and agreed to produce a Hard Drive > installable version of Lemmings. It was a major > victory among the masses. I was one of the people screaming loudest for a change, and even promised to buy the new version if it met my objections. As far as I'm concerned, they wasted their time; they'll get no money from me. What seemed a victory turns out to taste of ashes. > The key disk protection issue doesn't bother me. > The version of Lemmings for the PC is HD > installable and also requires Key Disk protection. > I don't mind Key Disk protection as long as I can > install it on my HD although I prefer Manual Word > lookup if any protection is going to be used. Let's _once_ _again_ take a look at the problems (aside from playability, not a problem with Lemmings, from all reports) with Psygnosis games, and see how they did: 1) Beats floppy disk drive to death No change. with copy protection checks. 2) Requires fumbling around to find No change. floppy disk among dozens to 1000's, instead of just clicking up the game from the HD. 3) Slow to come up from death of one Probably improved. set of characters to playing again. 4) Survival of game limited to failure Worse; now beats one prone floppy disk media failure rate. track to death instead of whole disk. 5) Risk that game will be dead on No change. arrival because copy protection requires tight floppy drive tolerences. After receiving The Killing Game Show DOA, with reports here from several others that the copy protection was requiring more than my _working_ floppy drives could deliver, and the game had arrived DOA for them, too, and watching several other copy protected games suffer media failure before I could finish playing them, I set a rule, no more games with disk oriented copy protection, no more games I can't run strictly from my hard drive, no more games I can't back up and run from that backup. (Yes, I have backup copies of every game on my HD; HDs don't last forever, either). Key disk schemes do not satisfy these simple, understandable customer needs, and so I will continue to boycott and suggest that others boycott Psygnosis games. I don't have any intention of pirating games I buy, but I do have intentions of playing them, and copy protection schemes that make the games either immediately unplayable or soon unplayable will get no more of my limited game buying budget; too many other companies have found code wheels and manual lookup schemes suffice, and those meet all but my second concern above, a tremendous improvement; I still have to unbury the code wheel or manual, but that's mostly my own fault. Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
logan@netxcom.netx.com (Jim Logan) (06/07/91)
In article <1991Jun6.063912.23994@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: # > You might have missed it, but a few months back # > there was a big thread on this newsgroup blasting # > Psygnosis for their lack of HD support. A good # > friend of mine was part of that thread and the end # > result was that several people frm Psygnosis saw # > it, replied, and agreed to produce a Hard Drive # > installable version of Lemmings. It was a major # > victory among the masses. # # I was one of the people screaming loudest for a # change, and even promised to buy the new version # if it met my objections. As far as I'm concerned, # they wasted their time; they'll get no money from # me. What seemed a victory turns out to taste of # ashes. I agree completely. I made this decision before I even saw this thread. I have wasted roughly $200 on game software from Psygnosis, Acclaim, Virgin MasterTronics, and Electronic Arts. All have very good games. The only problem is that I bought a high-end A3000uxd with 9MB RAM and 340MB HD and I have to run them off of these slow floppies! They don't even load the floppy into RAM for faster play! ATTENTION ALL GAME MANUFACTURERS!!! I REFUSE TO BUY ANY GAME THAT WILL NOT RUN FROM MY HARD DISK! I don't mind codewheels or looking things up in a book (although I must complain about the map-matching in PowerMonger. It is too difficult! Well, the game's not that great anyway...) Another non-refundable $49 down the tubes. # Key disk schemes do not satisfy these simple, # understandable customer needs, and so I will # continue to boycott and suggest that others boycott # Psygnosis games. I am boycotting ALL games that do not meet my standards. -- Jim Logan Home: logan%gimlet@uunet.uu.net Consultant Work: logan@netx.com Net Express, Inc. Phone: (703) 749-2269
mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) (06/08/91)
In article <1991Jun6.063912.23994@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan):
Usually write intelligent things concerning the amiga world.
However, He has forgotten one very important thing that makes life with so many
people in the world livable, COMPROMISE. Although some of his complaints are
still valid, for psygnosis to go as far as they did is amazing. For one thing,
most key-disk copy protection schemes I have seen on require you to insert the
key-disk once at the very start of the game. This really can not be harder
on "one track of the floppy" than playing the whole game from a floppy.
Secondly, if you ever had played a floppy based version of lemmings you would
know that the disk acess is LONG, especially on systems with less than 1 MEG.
In my opinion, I am much more concerned with floppy vs hard drive access times
than the time it takes to find one floppy amid 12 to 1000 floppies. Finally,
we come back to COMPROMISE. Psygnosis still does not want Joe Average to be
able to give their games (an investment of their money) to the kid next door,
down the street, and the one they met once at school who has the same kind of
computer. On the other hand, most users that own a hard drive would love to
be able to take advantage of the speed their hard drive gives them. If you
are going to play a game for over an hour, what is so bad about spending the
first 1 minute finding the key disk and not having to later sit through 10
minutes of floppy access. Psygnosis came more than halfway, but yet you
still want to condemn them for not going as far as you wanted. This
is the equivalent of you getting a speeding ticket and then yelling at the
officer for giving you one instead of the one he gave you that only had you
going 5 mph over the speed limit rather than the 50 mph per hour over the
speed limit you were actually going. If someone is doing something that you
see as going in the right direction, you should encourage them, not condemn
them for not being all the way there.
--
Richard McGowen
"Men can't deal with commitment. They're afraid they'll get married and then
meet the woman of their dreams at the reception." --Carrie Snowmcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) (06/08/91)
>ATTENTION ALL GAME MANUFACTURERS!!! > >I REFUSE TO BUY ANY GAME THAT WILL NOT RUN FROM MY HARD DISK! > >I am boycotting ALL games that do not meet my standards. > If I can't win, I take my ball go home. :( I thought some of us had grown past third grade. -- Richard McGowen "Men can't deal with commitment. They're afraid they'll get married and then meet the woman of their dreams at the reception." --Carrie Snow
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) (06/08/91)
In article <16793@darkstar.ucsc.edu> mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) writes: >>ATTENTION ALL GAME MANUFACTURERS!!! >> >>I REFUSE TO BUY ANY GAME THAT WILL NOT RUN FROM MY HARD DISK! >> >>I am boycotting ALL games that do not meet my standards. >> > >If I can't win, I take my ball go home. :( > >I thought some of us had grown past third grade. >-- >Richard McGowen > >"Men can't deal with commitment. They're afraid they'll get married and then >meet the woman of their dreams at the reception." --Carrie Snow I dont think that person was 3rd gradish at all. Why should amiga software not take full advantage of all the hardware available while PC versions and Mac versions are HD mountable, etc. ??? PiRho- Because its Co-Ed . "tsroes rm `nsti ihst""enlgood rakm si amen ym"// "Brave Sir Robin ran away. Bravely ran away away." //A Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 \\ //mig Gun Control means using both hands \X/ A
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) (06/08/91)
In article <16792@darkstar.ucsc.edu> mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) writes: >In article <1991Jun6.063912.23994@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan): > >Usually write intelligent things concerning the amiga world. > > >However, He has forgotten one very important thing that makes life with so many >people in the world livable, COMPROMISE. Although some of his complaints are Compromise... then the game should be manually protected instead of a key disk thing which usually doesnt work. There should be no need for compromise. What Psygnosis does with copy protection is not stopping piracy and almost encourages people to pirate so that they can make back-up copies for themselves rather than relying on a $15 fee for a copy from the company. I wonder if psygnosis's version of lemmings for the IBM will have strong protection on it, making it unable to be HD mountable... then requiring IBM users to pay an additional $15 or so for a HD mountable version that relies on key-disk protection. We rarely see this sort of thing on Macs or on Ms-dos platforms but see it all the time on the amiga, and you say we should compromise??? we want essentially equal access to our hardware. >still valid, for psygnosis to go as far as they did is amazing. For one thing, This shouldve been available in the 1st place, instead of making people pay upwards of $50 for a HD mountable game. I paid $40 for lemmings, why should I have to pay an additional $15 or so just for a version that is HD mountable? >most key-disk copy protection schemes I have seen on require you to insert the >key-disk once at the very start of the game. This really can not be harder >on "one track of the floppy" than playing the whole game from a floppy. >Secondly, if you ever had played a floppy based version of lemmings you would >know that the disk acess is LONG, especially on systems with less than 1 MEG. >In my opinion, I am much more concerned with floppy vs hard drive access times >than the time it takes to find one floppy amid 12 to 1000 floppies. Finally, >we come back to COMPROMISE. Psygnosis still does not want Joe Average to be >able to give their games (an investment of their money) to the kid next door, >down the street, and the one they met once at school who has the same kind of >computer. On the other hand, most users that own a hard drive would love to Manual protection is as efficient as on disk copy protection in preventing this sort of thing. "joe average" will find a program that will allow you to make backups of all programs and merely use that to give the other person a copy. >be able to take advantage of the speed their hard drive gives them. If you >are going to play a game for over an hour, what is so bad about spending the >first 1 minute finding the key disk and not having to later sit through 10 >minutes of floppy access. Psygnosis came more than halfway, but yet you >still want to condemn them for not going as far as you wanted. This >is the equivalent of you getting a speeding ticket and then yelling at the >officer for giving you one instead of the one he gave you that only had you >going 5 mph over the speed limit rather than the 50 mph per hour over the >speed limit you were actually going. If someone is doing something that you >see as going in the right direction, you should encourage them, not condemn >them for not being all the way there. I commend them for coming this far but they shouldve been alot further down the road from day 1. I have to reiterate the MS-Dos problem again because that fact about Amiga games almost made him decide to get a 386 instead of a 500 system. He was concerned about the fact that most Amiga games dont mount on HD's and thats largely due to the perception that making them HD mountable will make it easier to pirate, which I doubt it true. If companies can make the IBM versions mount on a HD, why cant the amiga port do so? Why why why why why..... >-- >Richard McGowen > >"Men can't deal with commitment. They're afraid they'll get married and then >meet the woman of their dreams at the reception." --Carrie Snow PiRho- Because its Co-Ed . "tsroes rm `nsti ihst""enlgood rakm si amen ym"// "Brave Sir Robin ran away. Bravely ran away away." //A Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 \\ //mig Gun Control means using both hands \X/ A
soh@andromeda.trl.OZ.AU (kam hung soh) (06/08/91)
mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) writes: >Psygnosis still does not want Joe Average to be >able to give their games (an investment of their money) to the kid next door, >down the street, and the one they met once at school who has the same kind of >computer. Proponents of disk-based protection systems seem to forget pirates have and can break any protection on disk and honest buyers are penalised instead. If a person buys a game, why does he have to pay extra so that he can fully utilise his system? Will the company replace his game disk for free if he wears it out due to the protection system? Why does he have to put up with such inconvenience at all in the first place? Isn't fairer to reward the honest user instead of punishing him? ------- Soh, Kam Hung email: h.soh@trl.oz.au tel: +61 3 541 6403 Telecom Research Laboratories, POB 249 Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia
mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) (06/08/91)
If I am not mistaken, the IBM version requires a key disk also. Although you may prefer manual protection to key disk protection, I would much prefer a key disk any day. With a key disk, I can have all my floppies in one fairly small container. Floppies are also a bit more durable, at least in my living environment, than docs. I could destroy a code wheel or a piece of paper much easier. In short, I am tired of people bitching because psygnosis made a step in the right direction just because it was not exactly what the want. Let's see all these people who like to complain so much write a game. Then they can have it any way they da*n well please. Also be interesting to see if they were against copy protection then. -- Richard McGowen "Men can't deal with commitment. They're afraid they'll get married and then meet the woman of their dreams at the reception." --Carrie Snow
hoffmann@ssd.kodak.com (marty hoffmann) (06/08/91)
In article <16827@darkstar.ucsc.edu> Richard McGowen writes: >... Floppies are also a bit more durable, at least in my living >environment, than docs. I could destroy a code wheel or a piece of paper much >easier. That must be some environment :^) I can honestly say that I have never destroyed a code wheel. I can also honestly say that I have had a number of copy protected disks fail. I guess it really does depend on your environment. >In short, I am tired of people bitching because psygnosis made a step in the >right direction just because it was not exactly what the want. Let's see >all these people who like to complain so much write a game. Then they >can have it any way they da*n well please. Also be interesting to see if >they were against copy protection then. If I am buying a computer game, then I am a CONSUMER of that product. Why do I have to be a PRODUCER of that same product before I obtain the right to comment on a product someone expects me to consume. I don't like copy protection, but I accept that fact that there are dishonest scum bags out there against which producers of software must protect their investment. In my opinion, manual based copy protection is better, because it allows me to protect my investment as a consumer, better than on-disk copy protection. Obviously you don't agree, because of your environment. But please don't try to argue that I don't have a right to my opinion or a right to express my opinion, just because I don't write computer games. That's stupid. I'd also like to point out that Psygnosis is taking these steps in response to customer demands. They're not doing this because they like you or me. They are doing it because they think they can make more money this way. In a business relationship, the customer is not obliged to thank the buisness for doing something to satisfy the customer. No, the customer has a right to demand that the business do certain things in order to keep that customer. Most of the people who are still bitching have purchased Psygnosis games in the past, and they have a right to complain. It can probably be argued that Psygnosis took this step in response to just the sort of bitching you are complaining about. If Psygnosis is still listening (reading?), they will see that many are of the opinion that they need to do more. Whether they choose to take the next step is up to them. Marty Hoffmann -- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Martin R Hoffmann | Opinions expressed above are | | (hoffmann@acl.kodak.com) | not Kodak's (blah blah blah) | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) (06/08/91)
In article <1991Jun8.053709.7740@trl.oz.au> soh@andromeda.trl.OZ.AU (kam hung soh) writes: >mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) writes: >>Psygnosis still does not want Joe Average to be >>able to give their games (an investment of their money) to the kid next door, >>down the street, and the one they met once at school who has the same kind of >>computer. > >Proponents of disk-based protection systems seem to forget pirates have >and can break any protection on disk and honest buyers are penalised >instead. If a person buys a game, why does he have to pay extra so >that he can fully utilise his system? Will the company replace his >game disk for free if he wears it out due to the protection system? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Or pay for repairs on the disk drive to the constant grinding???? >Why does he have to put up with such inconvenience at all in the first >place? > >Isn't fairer to reward the honest user instead of punishing him? > >------- >Soh, Kam Hung email: h.soh@trl.oz.au tel: +61 3 541 6403 >Telecom Research Laboratories, POB 249 Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia PiRho- Because its Co-Ed . "tsroes rm `nsti ihst""enlgood rakm si amen ym"// "Brave Sir Robin ran away. Bravely ran away away." //A Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 \\ //mig Gun Control means using both hands \X/ A
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) (06/08/91)
In article <16827@darkstar.ucsc.edu> mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) writes: >If I am not mistaken, the IBM version requires a key disk also. Although you >may prefer manual protection to key disk protection, I would much prefer a >key disk any day. With a key disk, I can have all my floppies in one fairly >small container. Floppies are also a bit more durable, at least in my living >environment, than docs. I could destroy a code wheel or a piece of paper much >easier. > >In short, I am tired of people bitching because psygnosis made a step in the >right direction just because it was not exactly what the want. Let's see >all these people who like to complain so much write a game. Then they >can have it any way they da*n well please. Also be interesting to see if >they were against copy protection then. The reason we are bitching is because Psygnosis was so far off as far as protection went that anything that could be a "major step" wasnt. Copy protection is nothing more than some kind of drug for the software companies because it does nothing to curb piracy whatsoever. My friend bought SOTB and SOTB 2, spending close to $100 or a little more when he had a 500. When he moved up to the 3000, it didnt work. period. $100 gone and I have my doubts as to whether or not they will work under 2.0. If they dont, I can assure you I would be pissed if I paid the $55 every store wanted for SOTB 2. No, i have not written a game, but thats no excuse for preventing me from using all the hardware i have available. If I have a HD the game should be HD mountable. You dont see this sort of problem on the Mac or IBM platforms, why should we amiga users have to deal with it? If Microprose can make F19 stealth mount on an IBM HD, why cant it mount on an Amiga Hard Drive? Alot is due to copy protection. My internal on my 500 went out of alignment <long story but mostly my fault.> Its 6 months old. If in a year it had gone out of alignment "normally" <ie due to copy protection on psygnosis games> would they pay to get it fixed? Its unheard of to sell products that cause damage to other components. <flashback of ye olden dayes of the commodore 64/1541 drive going out of alignment due to head knocking> >-- >Richard McGowen > >"Men can't deal with commitment. They're afraid they'll get married and then >meet the woman of their dreams at the reception." --Carrie Snow PiRho- Because its Co-Ed . "tsroes rm `nsti ihst""enlgood rakm si amen ym"// "Brave Sir Robin ran away. Bravely ran away away." //A Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 \\ //mig Gun Control means using both hands \X/ A
cs87fmc@cc.brunel.ac.uk (F M Cargill) (06/08/91)
In article <1991Jun8.031144.26864@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) writes: <Stuff deleted> >In article <16792@darkstar.ucsc.edu> mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) writes: > I have to reiterate the MS-Dos problem again because that >fact about Amiga games almost made him decide to get a 386 instead of a 500 >system. He was concerned about the fact that most Amiga games dont mount on >HD's and thats largely due to the perception that making them HD mountable >will make it easier to pirate, which I doubt it true. If companies can make the >IBM versions mount on a HD, why cant the amiga port do so? >Why why why why why..... The excuse I heard was that there is the same proportion of piracy in both the MS-DOS and the Amiga markets, but because the MS-DOS market is so big there's a lot more games being sold, so the software houses can afford to not put any key disk protection on the games. I know, there are some important flaws in the argument, but some people really think this way and use it as a justification for gronking your disk drives. My solution for HD installable games on the Amiga? Get the MS-DOS version and run it off the BridgeBoard :-)
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) (06/09/91)
In article <2197@Terra.cc.brunel.ac.uk> cs87fmc@cc.brunel.ac.uk (F M Cargill) writes: >In article <1991Jun8.031144.26864@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) writes: ><Stuff deleted> >>IBM versions mount on a HD, why cant the amiga port do so? >>Why why why why why..... > >The excuse I heard was that there is the same proportion of piracy in both >the MS-DOS and the Amiga markets, but because the MS-DOS market is so big >there's a lot more games being sold, so the software houses can afford to not >put any key disk protection on the games. > >I know, there are some important flaws in the argument, but some people >really think this way and use it as a justification for gronking your disk >drives. > >My solution for HD installable games on the Amiga? Get the MS-DOS version and >run it off the BridgeBoard :-) sigh. I have a 500 and have 0 intentions of getting a bridge... aside from the fact that they are so expensive and 8mhtz.... bleah. PiRho- Because its Co-Ed . "tsroes rm `nsti ihst""enlgood rakm si amen ym"// "Brave Sir Robin ran away. Bravely ran away away." //A Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 \\ //mig Gun Control means using both hands \X/ A
dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan) (06/09/91)
We do not have to compromise. It's our money they're after, and if they want MY gaming dollar, they'll damned well put out the products *I* want. THEY work for US, not the other way around. dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of everything...haven't you learned; if it's not happenning to me it's not important?" -Murphy Brown
taak9@isuvax.iastate.edu (Steve Sheldon) (06/10/91)
In article <1662@tronsbox.xei.com>, dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Heffernan) writes: > > We do not have to compromise. It's our money they're after, and if >they want MY gaming dollar, they'll damned well put out the products *I* >want. THEY work for US, not the other way around. > > Agreed! The other one I get sick of is the notices that most software publishers use. I mean all the "Do Not copy this, it is a crime" notices, followed immediately by "This product carries no warranty of any kind. If it doesn't do what you expected it to do, tough luck. If it damages your computer in anyway, tough luck." Considering that games cost $40+ anymore, it'd be nice if game companies would be responsible for their products. Steve Sheldon /// | Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum! taak9@ccvax.iastate.edu /// | Senior, Computer Science \XX/ | Non erravi perniciose!
mmoore@ux.acs.umn.edu (Malcolm Diallo Moore) (06/10/91)
In article <1991Jun8.031144.26864@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu| sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) writes: |In article <16792@darkstar.ucsc.edu> mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) writes: |>In article <1991Jun6.063912.23994@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan): |> |>Usually write intelligent things concerning the amiga world. |> |> |>However, He has forgotten one very important thing that makes life with so many |>people in the world livable, COMPROMISE. Although some of his complaints are | |Compromise... then the game should be manually protected instead of a key disk |thing which usually doesnt work. There should be no need for compromise. What |Psygnosis does with copy protection is not stopping piracy and almost |encourages people to pirate so that they can make back-up copies for themselves |rather than relying on a $15 fee for a copy from the company. Exactly. | |I wonder if psygnosis's version of lemmings for the IBM will have strong |protection on it, making it unable to be HD mountable... then requiring IBM |users to pay an additional $15 or so for a HD mountable version that relies on |key-disk protection. We rarely see this sort of thing on Macs or on Ms-dos |platforms but see it all the time on the amiga, and you say we should |compromise??? we want essentially equal access to our hardware. | Of course not.sAnd this is fact, because I saw it on show in our local Software Etc. Store. He ran it from C:\> and it stood for a few seconds, and then it came up. And no, it wasn't the demo, it was the real thing. B "He" was the dealer - no not a drug dealer. |>still valid, for psygnosis to go as far as they did is amazing. For one thing, | | |This shouldve been available in the 1st place, instead of making people pay |upwards of $50 for a HD mountable game. I paid $40 for lemmings, why should I |have to pay an additional $15 or so just for a version that is HD mountable? | Far as I'm concerned, you sh|uld get the thing for free. I wouldn't get it anyway, because I'm on level 119. >;most key-disk copy protection schemes I have seen on require you to insert the |>on "one track of the floppy" than playing the whole game from a floppy. |>Secondly, if you ever had played a floppy based version of lemmings you would |>know that the disk acess is LONG, especially on systems with less than 1 MEG. |>In my opinion, I am much more concerned with floppy vs hard drive access times |>than the time it takes to find one floppy amid 12 to 1000 floppies. Finally, |>we come back to COMPROMISE. Psygnosis still does not want Joe Average to be |>able to give their games (an investment of their money) to the kid next door, |>down the street, and the one they met once at school who has the same kind of |>computer. On the other hand, most users that own a hard drive would love to | THey aren't worried about Joe Q Pirate with an IBM. |Manual protection is as efficient as on disk copy protection in preventing |this sort of thing. "joe average" will find a program that will allow you to |make backups of all programs and merely use that to give the other person a |copy. | |>be able to take advantage of the speed their hard drive gives them. If you |>are going to play a game for over an hour, what is so bad about spending the |>first 1 minute finding the key disk and not having to later sit through 10 |>minutes of floppy access. Psygnosis came more than halfway, but yet you |>still want to condemn them for not going as far as you wanted. This |>is the equivalent of you getting a speeding ticket and then yelling at the |>officer for giving you one instead of the one he gave you that only had you |>going 5 mph over the speed limit rather than the 50 mph per hour over the |>speed limit you were actually going. If someone is doing something that you |>see as going in the right direction, you should encourage them, not condemn They half-did it. Half-doing a job is like not doing it at all. Would you half-clean your bathroom? Nuff said. Malcolm "The Capital MD" Moore Sig closed for repair/remodeling - Will reopen within one week
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/10/91)
I think it's only fair to point out that the IBM version of Lemmings, which is HD mountable, is also using the Key Disk protection system. In this case, we do have the same protection scheme as what the IBMers do. Part of the reason game makers are so vigilant on protecting Amiga software over IBM software is because the difference in the size of the market. IBM has such a huge market that even with a lot of piracy of unprotected software, they can still make enough sales to make a profit. Whereas on the Amiga market, the sales volume won't be as high even if they are able to prevent the game from being copied. -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) (06/10/91)
In article <6924@vela.acs.oakland.edu> lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: > >I think it's only fair to point out that the IBM version of Lemmings, >which is HD mountable, is also using the Key Disk protection system. >In this case, we do have the same protection scheme as what the IBMers >do. > >Part of the reason game makers are so vigilant on protecting Amiga >software over IBM software is because the difference in the size of >the market. IBM has such a huge market that even with a lot of piracy >of unprotected software, they can still make enough sales to make a >profit. Whereas on the Amiga market, the sales volume won't be as high >even if they are able to prevent the game from being copied. The only problem is that they then underestimate the size of piracy in the IBM market. Shit, NYC agencies were pirating "XYWrite" and Lotus 1-2-3 and Wordperfect until word hit the NY post a few weeks ago and a big stink was made of it <not big enought that all the papers covered it though.> >-- >/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ >|Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | >| | on the world...and you thought things| >|lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. | PiRho- Because its Co-Ed . "tsroes rm `nsti ihst""enlgood rakm si amen ym"// "Brave Sir Robin ran away. Bravely ran away away." //A Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 \\ //mig Gun Control means using both hands \X/ A
sschaem@starnet.uucp (Stephan Schaem) (06/10/91)
Any game that run on the CDTV are developed to run on HDs. The only problem is that games are devolped with the 512k limit and leveing the system on take memory (more or less) and more for your HD device... And environment to instable! Untill someone try to market a game they wont know how tuff it is to get money back on the develpment. I curently port a game to the CDTV from a 3 disk ALL amiga game. Even if their is no disk protection the disk version can be HD only if the virtual memory was removed and use an extra 512K. In that case 2 version would be needed for floppy/HD users, something MANY compagnie cant afford. I think people overlooked the developement problem. Do you think software compagnie dont make Amiga HD instalable games because they can make live with it? If the amiga market was A3000 the develment stantard would be diferent. IBM give reseon to make extra code to work on all diferent PC version.
buffa@yeu.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) (06/11/91)
Well, somebody said something very important:
We need more demos of games. If companies posted on BBS and distributed widely
demos of a game they are going to sell, they would less suffer from piracy:
-If the demo is really good, like the one we had for Lemmings, Turrican 1 & 2,
Gods, a lot of people will buy the final game. I bought these games as soon as
they became available.
-If the demo is bad, nobody will buy the game, that explain why demos are so
rare. People who spread demos of their games are very proud of what they are
going to sell. people who make bad games, like US GOLD never distributed a
preview or a demo of one of their games.
-A lot of people try to get cracked copies to check the games before buying,
especially when it's an unknown game, not written by famous people. Too much
risks ! Who here has never been disapointed by a brand new game. I had such
bad experience with Thunder Blade, F29 (buggy good flight sim, but buggy),
Forgotten worlds... others... Well, so each time I have the opportunity to try
a game (in a shop or an illegal copy), I do it. Look at all the games me and a
friend bought this year:
Game: Why I bought it
------- ---------------
CADAVER: I love previous games by the Bitmap Brothers
(Xenon 1 & 2, Speedball)
Z-OUT: Written by Factor 5, authors of R-TYPE, marketed
by Rainbow Arts, my favorite company for arcade
games.
TURRICAN 1: I played the demo and loved it.
TURRICAN 2: I loved Turrican 1
BATTLE COMMAND: I loved Carrier Command which I bought a few
years ago, written by the same persons
F29: I read very good reviews, saw nice picture in
magazines. First feeling: very good flight sim,
finally: bad game because it has a lot of bugs,
hasn't been tested. Never played it or a demo
before buying.
TEAM SUZUKI: We had a cracked copy we loved.
POWERMONGER: We loved Populous + nice reviews in magazine. We
were disappointed. Could not try it before
playing
M1 Tank Platoon: Had a cracked copy we loved.
KICK-OFF 2: Loved the first one.
Dragon Wars: Read good reviews, was at budget price. Good
game.
Lemmings: Loved the demo.
Forgot others...
Games I will buy as soon as they will be available:
--------------------------------------------------
Birds Of Prey: the new flight sim by Jez San, author of Starglider 2
Deuteros: follow-up to Millenium 2.2
R-TYPE 2: this one, I will try before because it hasn't been written by factor
5, authors of R-TYPE 1
All Bitmap Brothers titles.
CONCLUSION:
-----------
If demos were available for each game on the market, people would never buy
bad games, would never try to get cracked copies, would never been
disappointed, piracy would be less important and disk protection would not be
necessary no more.
--
------------------------------------------
Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France
Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr
Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis,
2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE
Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65
------------------------------------------logan@netxcom.netx.com (Jim Logan) (06/12/91)
In article <16793@darkstar.ucsc.edu> mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) writes: # >ATTENTION ALL GAME MANUFACTURERS!!! # > # >I REFUSE TO BUY ANY GAME THAT WILL NOT RUN FROM MY HARD DISK! # > # >I am boycotting ALL games that do not meet my standards. # > # # If I can't win, I take my ball go home. :( You missed the point. Game manufacturers need people to buy their games, and they need to listen to what people want. If I don't voice my opinion and I want to buy games, I will have to live with playing games from my slow floppy disk. To "take my ball [and] go home" is a selfish thing for a child to do, and it is an inaccurate analogy. These game manufacturers are not playmates -- they are only in it for the money. I'm telling them that through cooperation they can get MORE of my money without opening themselves up to piracy. It is frustrating to spend almost $10k on a high-end computer to find out that game manufacturers limit the enjoyability of the game by making it run through slowed-down floppy disk access. To my knowledge, they do not do this on any other platform but Amiga. I will not support a software company with my hard earned cash that dicks me over like that. The only reason they do it is only for copy protection purposes and if I tell them that they won't be able to sell games to me because of this, they will consider alternative copy-protection (like code-wheels). I am stuck with $100 worth of games that are unplayable. Take "Shadow of the Beast II" for instance. That game has beautiful graphics and sound, but horrible playability. I have to wait for almost a full minute to try again when my character dies and there's no reason for that when I have a hard disk. I do not want to be stuck with any more games that I cannot return to the store! They are too expensive to "go out on a limb" for, therefore I will not take any more chances with floppy-based games. (Sorry to single your game out as an example, Psygnosis, I think you are an EXCELLENT game manufacturer with only one annoying flaw!) -- Jim Logan Home: logan%gimlet@uunet.uu.net Consultant Work: logan@netx.com Net Express, Inc. Phone: (703) 749-2269
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) (06/12/91)
In article <452@netxcom.netx.com> logan@netxcom.netx.com (Jim Logan) writes: >In article <16793@darkstar.ucsc.edu> mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu >(Richard McGowen) writes: >It is frustrating to spend almost $10k on a high-end computer to >find out that game manufacturers limit the enjoyability of the >game by making it run through slowed-down floppy disk access. To >my knowledge, they do not do this on any other platform but >Amiga. I will not support a software company with my hard earned >cash that dicks me over like that. As Ive said before I only have a 500 with 1 meg, no HD or nothing but I plan to get 2.0 when it comes out and eventually other shit for it. I understand Speedball 2 doesnt run on a 3000. That sucks and that shouldnt be. >The only reason they do it is only for copy protection purposes >and if I tell them that they won't be able to sell games to me >because of this, they will consider alternative copy-protection >(like code-wheels). "Copy protection" that is on disks is their security blanket. They clutch to it like a whino clutches his drink, despite the fact it has had 0 effectiveness in stopping piracy. <my opinion anyway> >I am stuck with $100 worth of games that are unplayable. Take >"Shadow of the Beast II" for instance. That game has beautiful >graphics and sound, but horrible playability. I have to wait for Ive always wondered what people exactly people mean by "playability." Ive played SOTB 2 and the disk loads are a pain but I dont think that reduces its playability. Mig 29's usage of the mouse to control the %@**#!! plane does however. >almost a full minute to try again when my character dies and >there's no reason for that when I have a hard disk. I do not >want to be stuck with any more games that I cannot return to the >store! They are too expensive to "go out on a limb" for, >therefore I will not take any more chances with floppy-based >games. > >(Sorry to single your game out as an example, Psygnosis, I think >you are an EXCELLENT game manufacturer with only one annoying >flaw!) > >-- >Jim Logan Home: logan%gimlet@uunet.uu.net >Consultant Work: logan@netx.com >Net Express, Inc. Phone: (703) 749-2269 PiRho- Because its Co-Ed! Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 Gun Control means using both hands "Maybe You should be accelerated at 32'/sec^2 off a cliff onto some jagged rocks. Elitist smeghead" ianj@ijpc.UUCP in [L76131w164w@ijpc.UUCP]
sschaem@starnet.uucp (Stephan Schaem) (06/12/91)
The problem with piracy is not someone geting an ilegale copy and then get an original because the game is good... The problem is people buying illegal copy, and not buying originals. Look italie or spain, why would anybody buy an original game there? You see ad for pirate copy for almost nothing. Many people dont consider the amiga game market looking good, and more piracy will hurt that even more.
buffa@krakatoa.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) (06/12/91)
I'm really pissed by this discussion against Psygnosis, as there are many many
worse companies on the market.
What you should do:
-Buy an IBM or a MAC, and stop posting bloody ennoying messages. Have you ever
played games on these machines ? There is not even one good arcade game, only
boring simulations that are better on the Amiga. If the price to pay is copy
protection, I accept it. IBM and MAC are not good for gaming.
-I bought my amiga in 1986 and never had any problem with my drives. I have
seen no game that destroyed or changed my head drives alignment.
-I have an HD, but I can not put all games on it. The only games that need to
be on a HD, like Sierra games or Stellar 7 or other IBM ports don't woth the
price of their box. If people suppose that everybody has an HD, has an
accelerator card, has a 3000, we won't see games like starglider 2, Carrier
Command that have a better 3D on a simple 68000 amiga than the flight sims on
IBM 486. Programmers must have constraints to be good.
-Stop flaming Psygnosis please, they enjoyed me so much with a lot of their
games...
-Flame Electronic Arts for Chuck Yeager flight sim awful IBM port (but HD
installable !)
-Flame Dynamix for awful IBM port of Stellar 7 (But Hd installable !)
-Flame US gold for their continuity in selling bad games.
--
------------------------------------------
Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France
Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr
Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis,
2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE
Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65
------------------------------------------sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) (06/13/91)
In article <11760@mirsa.inria.fr> buffa@mirsa.inria.fr writes: > >I'm really pissed by this discussion against Psygnosis, as there are many many >worse companies on the market. Worse being an objective term. >What you should do: > >-Buy an IBM or a MAC, and stop posting bloody ennoying messages. Have you ever >played games on these machines ? There is not even one good arcade game, only >boring simulations that are better on the Amiga. If the price to pay is copy >protection, I accept it. IBM and MAC are not good for gaming. The IBM is not a bad machine for games. The amiga should be better and could be but when games are ported to the amiga from the IBM they tend to suck. F19 stealth is a so-so port from the IBM version. Pirates was much better on the Amiga. Red Storm Rising is better on the Amiga. Gunship wasnt as good. M1 tank platoon was mediocre. >-I bought my amiga in 1986 and never had any problem with my drives. I have >seen no game that destroyed or changed my head drives alignment. > >-I have an HD, but I can not put all games on it. The only games that need to >be on a HD, like Sierra games or Stellar 7 or other IBM ports don't woth the Shadow of the Beast 2 does. I havent played part 1 very much but after seeing 2, i cant bear to see 1. SOTB 2 doesnt even recognize DF1: for crying out loud and in the 1st few minutes we have to wait a minute for it to load another sequence off the floppy. >price of their box. If people suppose that everybody has an HD, has an >accelerator card, has a 3000, we won't see games like starglider 2, Carrier >Command that have a better 3D on a simple 68000 amiga than the flight sims on >IBM 486. Programmers must have constraints to be good. The games should be runnable off a HD and on an accelerrated machine <although not necessarily speed up on an accelerated machine like Populous does on my friend's 3000 did>. >-Stop flaming Psygnosis please, they enjoyed me so much with a lot of their >games... When they eliminate on disk protection ... incidentally I still think lemmings shouldve been multitaskable. it is so tetris like that you could pause the game and do work and then go back to it. >-Flame Electronic Arts for Chuck Yeager flight sim awful IBM port (but HD >installable !) > >-Flame Dynamix for awful IBM port of Stellar 7 (But Hd installable !) > >-Flame US gold for their continuity in selling bad games. "What games have they released?" I have no idea what games they made, i have barely heard of US gold, let alone seen a game done by them. >-- >------------------------------------------ >Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France > > Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr >Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis, > 2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE > Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65 >------------------------------------------ A friend of mine recently got Wrath of the Demon. He liked it but I was abit annoyed at a few things. What? here goes my list: 1> Not HD Installable 2> "Ndos disks" <see #1> 3> Had the wrong title. <Shouldve been named Shadow Of the Beast 3.> 4> delays in playing of game due to loading off of floppy disk. 5> worse yet, it was 5 fucking disks and did not recognize df1: Alot of companies do that, make games that dont recognize external drives and that pisses me off because I already had to get my internal replaced a few weeks ago <not related to copy protection schemes btw> and its a pain in the ass to do that when you wear out the df0: on your 500 due to constant ejecting of disks or because of wierd sounds eminating from it thanks to the on disk protection. PiRho- Because its Co-Ed! Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 Gun Control means using both hands "Maybe You should be accelerated at 32'/sec^2 off a cliff onto some jagged rocks. Elitist smeghead" ianj@ijpc.UUCP in [L76131w164w@ijpc.UUCP]
dsg@cci632.cci.com (David Greenberg) (06/13/91)
I've been reading this "war" for a while now and have been hesitant to join, and I am still sitting on the fence, but I have something to say: I think it is outrageous for a company to ask for more money for a HD installable (ie. not protected) game. What is it for? more money for less programming (ie protection?) or more money to make up for the fact that the person who gets the unprotected version will pirate it? I think that if a company wants to charge more for a Non-protected version, then hell, charge less for the Protected one! Just my 2 cents, Dave
soh@andromeda.trl.OZ.AU (kam hung soh) (06/14/91)
buffa@krakatoa.inria.fr (Michel Buffa) writes: >.... If people suppose that everybody has an HD, has an >accelerator card, has a 3000, we won't see games like starglider 2, Carrier >Command that have a better 3D on a simple 68000 amiga than the flight sims on >IBM 486. Programmers must have constraints to be good. Good programmers recognise constraints, but do not force users to live with them. ---------- Soh, Kam Hung email: h.soh@trl.oz.au tel: +61 3 541 6403 Telecom Research Laboratories, POB 249 Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia
gwharvey@lescsse.jsc.nasa.gov (Greg Harvey) (06/14/91)
In <452@netxcom.netx.com> logan@netxcom.netx.com (Jim Logan) writes: >In article <16793@darkstar.ucsc.edu> mcgowen@saturn.ucsc.edu >(Richard McGowen) writes: ># >ATTENTION ALL GAME MANUFACTURERS!!! ># > ># >I REFUSE TO BUY ANY GAME THAT WILL NOT RUN FROM MY HARD DISK! ># > ># >I am boycotting ALL games that do not meet my standards. ># > ># ># If I can't win, I take my ball go home. :( >You missed the point. Game manufacturers need people to buy >their games, and they need to listen to what people want. If I >don't voice my opinion and I want to buy games, I will have to >live with playing games from my slow floppy disk. >To "take my ball [and] go home" is a selfish thing for a child to >do, and it is an inaccurate analogy. These game manufacturers >are not playmates -- they are only in it for the money. I'm >telling them that through cooperation they can get MORE of my >money without opening themselves up to piracy. Jim may not want to be considered selfish with his money. He may not like to have the "I take my ball go home" applied to him. I, on the other hand, don't mind. Game manufacturers who do not service the reasonable desires of their customers deserve to enter bankruptcy. Given a company like Psygnosis which produces excellent games, I would hate to have them go, but I will not continue to buy their games should they decide to continue the current policy. Having bought five from them (and deliriously happy with each...though some are hard to play and floppy bound), at $30-50 per, I feel I have earned the right to levy expectations on the company. After all, if they let me use my hard disk and STILL continue putting out good games, I'm in it for the long haul. I wouldn't be surprised if I were to buy every game they produced. And I have friends who feel the same way...LOTS OF THEM. We've already fought this battle on the IBM and won. I'm willing to fight it on the Amiga, too. [stuff deleted] >(Sorry to single your game out as an example, Psygnosis, I think >you are an EXCELLENT game manufacturer with only one annoying >flaw!) I agree with Jim here, Psygnosis! Please remove the only obstacle to us saying you are the BEST EVER game manufacturer. On the other hand, Sir-Tech satisfied this criteria with their current qame. Guess what got bought immediately? 'Nuff said? Money talks in a market (free or otherwise) economy. My money is talking....anybody listening? -- If you get the impression I'm not qualified to speak for my company, it's because I ain't, I can't, I don't, I won't, and I don'wanna. Greg Harvey --Temporarily without mail service Lockheed, Houston Texas --Hope to have a PSCNI route soon!
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/15/91)
In article <11760@mirsa.inria.fr> buffa@mirsa.inria.fr writes: | | I'm really pissed by this discussion against Psygnosis, as there are many many | worse companies on the market. Sorry to have upset you... | | What you should do: | | -Buy an IBM or a MAC, and stop posting bloody ennoying messages. Have you ever | played games on these machines ? There is not even one good arcade game, only | boring simulations that are better on the Amiga. If the price to pay is copy | protection, I accept it. IBM and MAC are not good for gaming. Not true. There are several games on the IBM that were disasters when they were ported to the Amiga. Chuck Yeager's AFT is one I can think of. Bloody well great on the IBM, sick as a mule on the Amiga. In general, the Amiga has better games, but that is not an absolute. | | -I bought my amiga in 1986 and never had any problem with my drives. I have | seen no game that destroyed or changed my head drives alignment. I haven't either, but then I've been lucky. I have friends who have had to have their drives re-aligned a few times becuase of copy protection gronking the hell out of them. | | -I have an HD, but I can not put all games on it. The only games that need to | be on a HD, like Sierra games or Stellar 7 or other IBM ports don't woth the | price of their box. If people suppose that everybody has an HD, has an | accelerator card, has a 3000, we won't see games like starglider 2, Carrier | Command that have a better 3D on a simple 68000 amiga than the flight sims on | IBM 486. Programmers must have constraints to be good. Give me a break. If it's written for the Amiga it should at LEAST take an assumption that SOMEONE out there has bought an A3000 and just MIGHT like to play that game inbetween doing whatever major important things they are doing with their machine. Even if it doesn't support an HD it should at least run on a 68030 or 020 based machine. It doesn't take that much more effort and they won't piss anyone off in the process. HD installability is a nice feature to have, but isn't an absolute must have (IMHO). It should work on all machines though. | | -Stop flaming Psygnosis please, they enjoyed me so much with a lot of their | games... Thats like saying: Stop flaming the U.S. Government! Sure they're not perfect, but their trying! If we don't let them know what we want, they won't have any reason to get better. Why should I settle for almost everything I'd like to have when I can have it all? Why do you think I bought an Amiga instead of an IBM? IBM was almost everything I wanted, the Amiga WAS everything I wanted. | | -Flame Electronic Arts for Chuck Yeager flight sim awful IBM port (but HD | installable !) We have, and will continue to do so in the future. | | -Flame Dynamix for awful IBM port of Stellar 7 (But Hd installable !) I haven't seen this one so I can not comment. | | -Flame US gold for their continuity in selling bad games. No one buys US Gold games around here anyways so whats the point of flaming them? They aren't anywhere near perfect and no amount of flaming will change that. | -- | ------------------------------------------ | Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France | | Internet: buffa@sardaigne.inria.fr | Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis, | 2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE | Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65 | ------------------------------------------ Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |