jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) (08/29/90)
[ followups to alt.security and comp.os.msdos.apps ] In article <1190@manta.NOSC.MIL>, grantk@manta (Kelly J. Grant) writes: >I disagree that WP documents are "trivial" to decode. They are possibly >trivial for the 'sci.crypt' people who have experience in breaking >ciphers and the like, but for people who have no training or knowledge >in the subject, I think WP locked documents are perfectly safe for >reports or other "private" (but not classified) documents. Well, I wouldn't say they're safe for anybody. Because 'unlocking' the documents in case of a forgotten password is useful, someone will probably soon write a program to 'unlock' the documents and release it to free distribution like comp.sources.misc. I probably would do it, if I used WP. This is true for lots of other things in computer security, too. For example, Bridge (well, I don't know who owns the company manufacturing these beasts this week ;-) terminal servers and MAC-level bridges accept configuration commands to a magic UDP port and no access control is used. Well, the bridges themselves ask a password to enter the configuration mode (local or global netmanager) but the 'global' netmanager is implemented by just sending UDP packets to a magic port and the only difference betwen local and global netmanager is that a local manager can't send UDP commands from the bridge to other Bridge equipment (oh yes, another difference is that the global netmanager password isn't shown to local manager). But normal Unix machines don't have the 'control', so they can issue 'global netmanager'-level commands and the Bridges are even so friendly that they tell you all the passwords. This 'access control' kind of resembles the story of the beast which thinks it can't see anybody else if the someone else's eyes are covered in the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, makes you wonder if the HGG was used as a design document ;-) Similar things appear on many Sun workstations; people may think that it's good enough protection because not many people know about the vulnerabilities and those in the know should not tell others. However, if the problems are not discussed and solved, we are in deep trouble; often the documents don't point out the vulnerabilities (probably because of commercial reasons - it wouldn't look quite good if Bridge put in it's documentation something like "By the way, this 'access control' mechanism isn't designed to really work, it's just there so we wouldn't get a bad reputation for not providing access controls.") Just as for the WP someone will probably write (and probably many have already written) a program to open 'locked' documents, I have written some software for Bridge administration (in addition to sending those UDP packets, it can read files from a Bridge NCS/AT and function as a NCS/AT file server) because the software is useful. I am planning to announce that the software is available for anonymous ftp when I have it somewhat cleaned up. I don't know if the access control problems have been fixed in current software releases; they were there two years ago and the local represantative was informed, so they might be fixed, but I would't be so confident. People using Bridge equipment might ask their vendor if the problem still exists. >Of course, >now that you have posted a cookbook approach to breaking these documents, >they are a little less secure. And then again, maybe a lot more secure since the problem is now widely known and the vendor probably will change the documentation to tell that the protection is not 'a real thing' and users wanting real privacy will have to use alternative methods. >In reality, we all know truly sensitive data should be locked by a >"world class" encryption scheme, and then placed in a secure place. >But what ciphers can't be broken ? In the larger sense, what is a >The WP protection >scheme keeps honest people honest, like car door locks. Yes, this is a point; in my opinion, however, the WP protection did a lot more harm than good since it was documented to be quite safe when it was not. The users were fooled into thinking that their car was locked when it fact it was not. //Jyrki
s30986u@kaira.hut.fi (Martin Helin) (08/29/90)
jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes: >Well, I wouldn't say they're safe for anybody. Because 'unlocking' >the documents in case of a forgotten password is useful, someone will >probably soon write a program to 'unlock' the documents AT LEAST one company (in Utah, USA) markets a program that will recover crypted Word Perfect documents. The company has similar products for other programs (e.g. Lotus, MS Ecxel) too. And like Jyrki said it probably won't take long until somebody releases a PD program to do the same. Martin Martin Helin Helsinki University of Technology, Finland Internet : mhe@otax.tky.hut.fi s30986u@kaira.hut.fi UUCP : uunet!kaira.hut.fi!s30986u
ferry@chorus.fr (Ferry de Jong) (08/31/90)
From article <6125@chorus.fr>, by ferry@chorus.fr (Ferry de Jong): > (Only restrictions: the length of the > password has to be at least 1/5 of the document text. WP V4.1 and WP5.?) ^^^^^ Sorry little mistake. The restriction is that the password has to be SMALLER then 20% of the text. If it is longer the program can't guarantee for a 100% the password is correct. But after all in most cases it still produces the correct password. ___ ___ ___ ___ _ _ _ _ ( _)( _)( ,) ( ,)( \/ ) | ( \/\/ )riting software takes twice as long ) _) ) _) ) \ ) \ \ / | \ / as you expect it to take... (_) (___)(_)\_)(_)\_)(_/ | \/\/ Even if you keep this in mind! e-mail: ferry@chorus.fr
ee5391aa@hydra.unm.edu (Duke McMullan n5gax) (09/10/90)
In article <1990Aug29.122029.24884@santra.uucp> s30986u@kaira.hut.fi (Martin Helin) writes: >AT LEAST one company (in Utah, USA) markets a program that will recover >crypted Word Perfect documents. The company has similar products for >other programs (e.g. Lotus, MS Ecxel) too. >And like Jyrki said it probably won't take long until >somebody releases a PD program to do the same. One was posted on sci.crypt last week. ;^) d -- "...while I know many people who emphatically believe in reincarnation, I have never met or read one who could satisfactorily explain population growth." -- Spider Robinson Duke McMullan n5gax nss13429r phon505-255-4642 ee5391aa@hydra.unm.edu