time@tbomb.ice.com (Tim Endres) (10/04/90)
I am looking for a connection tool for the Communications Toolbox which will give me a TCP data stream. Does anyone know of one available or in development? ------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Endres | time@ice.com ICE Engineering | uunet!ice.com!time 8840 Main Street | Whitmore Lake MI. 48189 | (313) 449 8288
cory@howtek.UUCP (Cory Kempf) (10/05/90)
In article <0B030501.QKT1KD@tbomb.ice.com> time@tbomb.ice.com writes: > >I am looking for a connection tool for the Communications Toolbox >which will give me a TCP data stream. > >Does anyone know of one available or in development? I belive that Pacer has what you are looking for. They were showing a CTB terminal emulator at MacWorld Boston, and (if I remember correctly) it has a TCPtool. (I wish I could remember better... something about FTP as well, but I can't remember what) +C
matt@pacvax.UUCP (Matt Kingman) (10/09/90)
In article <1545@howtek.UUCP> cory@howtek.UUCP (Cory Kempf) writes: > I belive that Pacer has what you are looking for. They were showing a CTB > terminal emulator at MacWorld Boston, and (if I remember correctly) it has > a TCPtool. Yes, our new product PacerTerm (successor to PacerLink) is a fully CTB based terminal emulation/file transfer product that has a host of features including 100% HyperTalk compatible scripting. Included in the product is a TCP connection tool that provides Telnet and/or raw TCP data streams. At this time there are no plans to market the TCP tool seperately. FTP support is currently being developed. The product should be available around Q1 1991. Matt Kingman - Macintosh Software Engineer Pacer Software Inc. - Westboro, MA 01581 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.....
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (10/09/90)
In article <1545@howtek.UUCP> cory@howtek.UUCP (Cory Kempf) writes: >> I belive that Pacer has what you are looking for. They were showing a >CTB >> terminal emulator at MacWorld Boston, and (if I remember correctly) it >has >> a TCPtool. In article <114@pacvax.UUCP> matt@pacvax.UUCP (Matt Kingman) writes: >Yes, our new product PacerTerm (successor to PacerLink) is a fully CTB >based terminal emulation/file transfer product that has a host of features >including 100% HyperTalk compatible scripting. Included in the product is >a TCP connection tool that provides Telnet and/or raw TCP data streams. Is it possible to drop the TELNET and FTP tools into any conforming CTB application and use them without difficulty? -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "Gangsters would kidnap my math teacher, Miss Albertine, and I'd track them down and kill them one by one until she was free, and then she'd break off her engagement with my sarcastic English teacher, Mr. Richardson, because she'd fallen hopelessly in love with her grim-faced and silent fourteen-year-old savior." -- Nite Owl, in WATCHMEN by Alan Moore
matt@pacvax.UUCP (Matt Kingman) (10/10/90)
In article <12765@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: > Is it possible to drop the TELNET and FTP tools into any conforming > CTB application and use them without difficulty? TELNET, yes, although it has not yet been extensively tested. FTP, maybe. The design of the File Transfer Manager prohibits a clean File Transfer Tool implementation of FTP. We're still ironing out design issues. --- Matt Kingman - Macintosh Software Engineer Pacer Software Inc. - Westboro, MA 01581 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself.....
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (10/12/90)
In article <12765@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: >> Is it possible to drop the TELNET and FTP tools into any conforming >> CTB application and use them without difficulty? In article <115@pacvax.UUCP> matt@pacvax.UUCP (Matt Kingman) writes: >TELNET, yes, although it has not yet been extensively tested. FTP, maybe. The design of the File Transfer Manager prohibits a clean File Transfer >Tool implementation of FTP. We're still ironing out design issues. Very interesting. How do you deal with TELNET options that control things that live in the terminal layer of CTB? Or is that proprietary? -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "The Diabolonian position is new to the London playgoer of today, but not to lovers of serious literature. From Prometheus to the Wagnerian Siegfried, some enemy of the gods, unterrified champion of those oppressed by them, has always towered among the heroes of the loftiest poetry." - Shaw, "On Diabolonian Ethics"
amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) (10/12/90)
In article <12811@hoptoad.uucp>, tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: > Very interesting. How do you deal with TELNET options that control things > that live in the terminal layer of CTB? Or is that proprietary? That's the fun part! :-). The only effective way is to do things like: Local echo Local line editing Control character -> Telnet control translation and suchlike *within* the connection tool. It's gross, but it works, and it's the only way to keep the CTB and modern Telnet servers happy. So far as I know, InterCon's connection tool (which I put together before I left) is the only TCP/Ip connection tool available which handles full telnet option negotiation and local editing. IMHO, The CTB is too oriented towards serial ports and serial-port-like virtual circuits, but it is still possible to make it deal with TCP/IP if you take the "I am the Great And Powerful Oz" approach with it :-). FTP is likewise quite possible, but involves even more internal handwaving than Telnet. -- Amanda Walker amanda@visix.com Visix Software Inc. ...!uunet!visix!amanda -- "Life would be tolerable but for its amusements." --Sir George Cornwall Lewis
kdb@intercon.com (Kurt Baumann) (10/13/90)
In article <12765@hoptoad.uucp>, tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: > In article <114@pacvax.UUCP> matt@pacvax.UUCP (Matt Kingman) writes: > >Yes, our new product PacerTerm (successor to PacerLink) is a fully CTB > >based terminal emulation/file transfer product that has a host of features > >including 100% HyperTalk compatible scripting. Included in the product is > >a TCP connection tool that provides Telnet and/or raw TCP data streams. > > Is it possible to drop the TELNET and FTP tools into any conforming > CTB application and use them without difficulty? > -- > Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com Hello from the InterOp show floor... I don't know about their's, (it should if it was done right) but ours will most definatly drop right into any CTB compliant application. We do not have a FTP tool, but we do have a TELNET / TCP Tool. Also a company from France has a TCP Tool and a FTP application (not a FTP Tool), Advanced Concepts or something like that. I didn't know that Pacer was unbundling their tool from their product. You can get just the tool from either InterCon or the company in France (I am sorry that I have forgotten their company name off hand). They are here somewhere at InterOp, but not near us at the moment so I can't just go ask..:-) Hope that helps. -- Kurt Baumann InterCon Systems Corporation
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (10/13/90)
In article <12811@hoptoad.uucp>, tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: >> Very interesting. How do you deal with TELNET options that control things >> that live in the terminal layer of CTB? In article <trknntg0ka@visix.com> amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) writes: >That's the fun part! :-). The only effective way is to do things >like: > Local echo > Local line editing > Control character -> Telnet control translation > >and suchlike *within* the connection tool. It's gross, but it works, >and it's the only way to keep the CTB and modern Telnet servers happy. It's a clever solution, but it has its own problems. If your application tries to manage control characters, local line editing, and local echo itself at user request (as TOPS Terminal does, except for local line editing), for instance by providing a universal set of control characters which, for modem connections, are mapped to the OS control characters but for a TELNET connection, are mapped to the TELNET standard control sequences, then there's no way for this scheme to work without explicit agreement between the application and the tool, which is not supposed to be needed and which violates the transparent plug-in concept. Similarly for local editing and local echo; the user can't specify these in a tool-independent way, and any setting made at the terminal tool level will be ignored. In case anyone thought I was implicitly criticizing Pacer for the likely limitations of their tools, please accept my apologies for my lack of clarity. I am actually criticizing Apple for the lack of generality in the Communications Toolbox, which Amanda, myself, and others made abundantly clear to them quite a while ago. So far, there is no word on a more general upgrade that would solve the TCP/IP incompatibility issues. Apple has a strange habit of releasing supposedly general-purpose software without actually implementing hard test cases which would prove the software to be general. I could point out, for instance: Communications Toolbox MacApp (until this year) TextEdit (now not recommended for serious development) Dialog Manager (now not recommended for serious development) Script Manager (until the second release) B*-Tree Manager (except they scrapped it instead of generalizing it) On the other side, we have all the software which is supposed to be general-purpose and of great use to developers, and which was actually tested by the implementation of significant test cases before release: Mac Programmer's Workshop HyperCard In the more common non-general case, obvious test cases were ignored, such as word processors, sophisticated control panel type dialogs, TCP/IP communications, graphics terminals, real databases, HyperCard-type applications, and so on. What could possibly have been going through the minds of the programmers and product managers? How could any serious developer announce that software is general-purpose when it has not yet been used for general purposes? -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "When errors are found in old research, the relevant theories are re-examined. When facts contradict theory, theory gets dumped. Is that why the NLP people are unwilling to research their facts?" -- Jerry Hollombe on sci.psychology
phssra@mathcs.emory.edu (Scott Robert Anderson) (10/14/90)
In article <0B030501.QKT1KD@tbomb.ice.com> time@tbomb.ice.com writes: > >I am looking for a connection tool for the Communications Toolbox >which will give me a TCP data stream. > >Does anyone know of one available or in development? There is the one from Intercon which has been mentioned many times here on the net. But I just received the following information about TCPack Tool, from Advanced Software (ADV.SOFT@AppleLink.Apple.COM). It is a quite a bit more appealing to me because it has a substantial educational discount ($150 -> $90). * * ** Scott Robert Anderson gatech!emoryu1!phssra * * * ** phssra@unix.cc.emory.edu phssra@emoryu1.bitnet * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * TCPack is a TCP/IP Connection Tool for the Communications ToolBox that enables the use of TCP/IP connections using Apple's MacTCP driver and the standard access interfaces of the CTB. Applications respecting the CTB architecture no longer need to include low level communications management code nor terminal emulation code (refer to CTB documentation for details) as these TOOLS will be provided by the CTB. TCPack proposes : o FTP support for FTP server functions, running as a background task o TELNET support of the TELNET protocol and negotiations. o Domain Name Resolver functions supported. when so configured, TCPack installs a "TCP" menu on the main menu bar. That menu allows anumber of choices, among which the setting of the FTP default folder. (do not forget our FTP is A SERVER, where clients can read or write. This means that you can log onto an IBM, then start an FTP session with YOUR Macintosh as SERVER and the IBM as CLIENT, and hence you will use the FTP commands the way the IBM understands them, most likely: on a command line). TCPack can be used interactively,allowing the setting of all communication parameters efficiently, respecting the Macintosh and CTB user interface guidelines to achieve configurations adapted to any type of TCP/IP connection. It is fully compatible with the Communication Toolbox scripting facilities in order to simplify the configuration phase which can become totally transparent to the user. Evaluation of TCPack can be achieved by downloading the special evaluation module which you shall find in AppleLink, section Third Parties Connection, Third Party Software Demos, Networking and Communications. This module is essentially the same as our commercial product, except for an internal timer mechanism designed to abort connection after a few minutes. Feel free to use this module for evaluation and test purposes, it contains all the code of the final product. You may not however disassemble,reverse-engineer or otherwise affect the code of this demo package. Restrictions: You may give copies of the demo package to other interested parties. You may not charge for the software, nor may you alter any information contained therein. We shall welcome your comments! Hardware & Software requirements : You should have : o The Macintosh Communications Toolbox v. 1.0 o The Communications Tools, Basic Connectivity Set (if you want to use the the sample Communications Toolbox application). o MacTCP v. 1.0.1, the TCP/IP protocol for the Macintosh. o A Macintosh Plus, A Macintosh Portable, or any computer in the Macintosh SE or Macintosh II family, with at least 1 MB of RAM running Macintosh System Software 6.0.4 or later. TCPack can be ordered directly from our offices by LINK, Mail or FAX and should be available through APDA France channels as of September. Licensing requests will be handled by our staff only. TCPack will be shipped to end-users with 1 floppy and a User Guide. TCPack is shipped with: - An installation application allowing the System Administrator to "freeze" some or all of the configuration parameters to increase security. - A sample 'Host' file giving the format of the list containing host IP addresses accessible on your network, which must be customized and installed in the System Folder. Pricing: all prices concern only TCPack. - individual package, at a price of $150. Includes User Guide and software. - orders of more than 10 units are given quantity discounts. Ask us! TCPack in these cases is protected against simultaneous use of duplicates. - site license: available on a case by case basis - Multi-site license: available on a case by case basis We provide either one master package which can be duplicated without limit on a site or within a corporation, or any number of individual packages, at your convenience. Educational Institutions are granted a -40% discount ON ALL PRICES (unit price at $90 US but prices go down pretty quick after 10 units; site license at 10.200 US for unlimited number of copies) - distribution license: if you wish to commercially distribute your applications together with our connection tool, you can obtain a commercial distribution license on a case by case basis. Please let me know which option suits best your requirements. TO ORDER (please print): Licensed to __ Company__ Individual Name ___________________________________________ Company ___________________________________________ Address ___________________________________________ City ___________________________________________ State/Country _______________________________________ Zip __________ Phone __________ Fax ____________ TCPack individual package $150 x ___ units = Total $_______ (French residents: Add 18.6% V.A.T.) Send US Dollars. Terms : Check, Visa, MasterCard, Money Order, EuroCard, Carte Bleue Card Type:_____________ Card Number ____________________________ Expires _______________ Print name on card _____________________ Signature _____________ Send to : Advanced Software Concepts Attn: Rodrigo CABALLERO 215, Chemin de la Sine 06140 Vence (France) Fax (33) 93-58-61-01 Phone (33) 93-58-19-79 Applelink ADV.SOFT Site and commercial licenses are available from ASC. Unit price is 150 $US ($90 for educational institutions). Due to French regulations on credit cards, this amount will be charged in french francs at the current rate of exchange. This information is subject to change without notice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMUNICATIONS TOOLBOX ORDERING INFORMATION ``````````````````````````````````````````` The Basic Connectivity Set of Communications Tools for the Macintosh Communications Toolbox is available through APDA(tm) and Developer Tools Express(tm). For your convenience, Apple has listed the order numbers below, with brief product descriptions. Pricing information and order forms are available in the APDAlog and also on AppleLink (AppleLink path: Developer Services: APDA). You may also order these products by calling (800) 282-2732 USA; (800) 637-0029 (Canada) (408) 562-3910; (International) or by sending an AppleLink message to APDA. Communication Tools, Order No. With this order you'll receive: Basic Connectivity Set M0379LL/A - One 800K disk containing $50 seven tools - One 800K disk containing a sample Communications Toolbox application - Sample end-user tools documentation (hard copy) - Single-use license This information is subject to change without notice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We also have another new product, which was announced at the San Jose World Developpers Conference: Asc3270, scheduled for distribution as of November 15 1990. Asc3270 is a terminal tool developed by Advanced Software Concepts, designed to offer full 3270 terminal emulation using the standard access interfaces of Apple's Communication Toolbox. Asc3270 proposes: o Full 3278 and 3279 model 2 support Terminal settings: Emulate 3278-2 or 3279-2 On line/Off line work Cursor type (block, underline, blink) Font size (9/12) 3270 Extended Data Stream (on/off) Status bar control (on/off) o User configured tear-off menus to reduce typing o Extensive keyboard remapping functions Keyboard settings: Insert mode after Attention Key (on/off) Discard Trailing blanks (on/off) Key-click sound (on/off) User-definable Keyboard: Reconfigurable Macintosh keyboard Multi-keyboard configuration Click-and-drag mapping interface User-definable Keypad: Standard 3270 key functions Resizable 'tear-off' keypads Click-and-drag mapping interface User-definable commands o Full color support 3270 color mapping with Apple's Color Picker Dialog box 3270 screen attributes mapping into Macintosh text attributes o Two levels of On-line Help: General Help: verbose description of the configuration functions Local Help: point-click-and-display of short help messages at any time Asc3270 can be used interactively, allowing the use of all connection tools developed for the Communication ToolBox architecture. It can be used with TCPack for TCP/IP connections. SNA and TokenRing will be accessible with the corresponding connection tools. Asc3270 is fully compatible with the Communication Toolbox scripting facilities in order to simplify the configuration phase which can become totally transparent to the user. Asc3270 can be used by any application designed to take advantage of the Communication Toolbox, provided the application respects the programming standards published by Apple for this architecture. This information is subject to change without notice. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) (10/15/90)
In article <12833@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >It's a clever solution, but it has its own problems. This is certainly true (for one, it makes the tool bigger than it "should" be, and breaks Apple's model of which modules implement which functions), but I found no other effective way to do it. I would much rather have been able to have the connection tell its caller to do things like go into and out of local echo, or binary mode, or local edit mode. However, the CTB has no mechanism to do this. Rather than write code that breaks when it talks to a smart Telnet server, we took the pragmatic approach of simulating what we needed, so that our users would be able to "plug it in and go." An approach I considered was to provide a "secondary channel" through which Telnet option negotiation would be reported to (and could be initiated by) the conenction's caller, but this would have required explicit cooperation on the part of the caller, which destroys the "plug and play"-ness of the tool. Given a choice, I opted for the approach that would be maximally invisible to the maximal number of users. If anyone wants to work with InterCon to work out a secondary channel protocol, though, feel free to give them a call. [minor note: I did also put in a checkbox to turn of Telnet processing completely, thus providing a raw TCP stream, over which a Telnet- aware program could do its own option negotiation.] >Apple has a strange habit of releasing supposedly general-purpose >software without actually implementing hard test cases which would >prove the software to be general. Well, I'd say it was more of a matter of having a smaller idea of "general" than the rest of us do :-). As much as I love Apple, they have an infuriating tendency to say things like "but why would you want to do that?" or "but we don't think that's a problem". Sigh. This seems *especially* true with networking. The CTB is a relatively mild example--look at AppleTalk Phase 2 or their bumbling efforts to cope with the idea of Wide Area AppleTalk over IP (or anything else, for that matter). Grumble, Grumble, Grumble. -- Amanda Walker amanda@visix.com Visix Software Inc. ...!uunet!visix!amanda -- All syllogisms have three parts; therefore, this is not a syllogism.
kdb@macaw.intercon.com (Kurt Baumann) (10/17/90)
In article <6397@emory.mathcs.emory.edu>, phssra@mathcs.emory.edu (Scott Robert Anderson) writes: > There is the one from Intercon which has been mentioned many times here on the > net. But I just received the following information about TCPack Tool, from > Advanced Software (ADV.SOFT@AppleLink.Apple.COM). It is a quite a bit more > appealing to me because it has a substantial educational discount ($150 -> $90). *** and a HUGH advertisement... For which I would have been flamed. :-( Anyway, to answer you particular question, we have educational discounts and we have site licenses of our software. Our educational discount amounts to 30% off which would make our $149 product sell for $104.30 and in site quantities goes down to about $45 per copy. Sooo, I don't know what there is to like about the other product other than price, and I don't think that price is an issue. Perhaps we need to be more explicit in our marketing materials... :-) Hope that clears things up. -- Kurt Baumann InterCon Systems Corporation 703.709.9890 Creators of fine TCP/IP products 703.709.9896 FAX for the Macintosh.
phssra@mathcs.emory.edu (Scott Robert Anderson) (10/17/90)
In article <271B566B.5B65@intercon.com> kdb@macaw.intercon.com (Kurt Baumann) writes: >In article <6397@emory.mathcs.emory.edu>, phssra@mathcs.emory.edu (Me) writes: >> There is the one from Intercon which has been mentioned many times here on >> the net. But I just received the following information about TCPack Tool, >> from Advanced Software (ADV.SOFT@AppleLink.Apple.COM) (a French company, BTW) > >Sooo, I don't know what there is to like about the other product other than >price, and I don't think that price is an issue. Maybe I want to practice my French? Or add to the trade deficit? :-) * * ** Scott Robert Anderson gatech!emoryu1!phssra * * * ** phssra@unix.cc.emory.edu phssra@emoryu1.bitnet * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
leonardr@svc.portal.com (Leonard Rosenthol) (10/17/90)
In article <271B566B.5B65@intercon.com>, kdb@macaw.intercon.com (Kurt Baumann) writes: > [discussion of Intercon Telnet Tool vs. TCPack from France] > > ...Sooo, I don't know what there is to like about the other product other > than price, and I don't think that price is an issue. > There are other differences in the products other than price (as one would expect). I have used both of these tools (in fact I have used both as testbeds to make sure that my CTB supporting application worked with both) and personally prefer the Intercon tool for my use. The reason that I prefer the Intercon tool has to do with the philosophy behind the tools. TCPack, as its name implies is a COMPLETE (or almost complete) TCP/IP Connection Tool. Not only does it handle Telnet, but it also provides an FTP Server, and the ability to connect to any standard or user configured 'port' such as pop2, pop3, etc. If you find this kind of complete offering handy, here you go. I, on the other hand, simply want to open up a telnet session on my host. To this end, Intercon's Telnet tool provides all of the standard Telnet options (including local echo), and works quite nicely. There is only one 'page' of configurations (about 6 check boxes and an edit field for the host info (name or address - including a popUp menu of the hosts from your MacTCP hosts file), as opposed to the 6 (I believe) 'pages' of options in TCPack. So, in addition to price, consider what you want to do and how you wish to accomplish it. Disclaimer: I know the folks at Intercon quite well, but have no financial interest in their product line. -- Leonard Rosenthol Software Ventures Corp. MicroPhone II Development Team
kdb@macaw.intercon.com (Kurt Baumann) (10/18/90)
In article <1990Oct17.050736.13123@svc.portal.com>, leonardr@svc.portal.com (Leonard Rosenthol) writes: > I, on the other hand, simply want to open up a telnet session on > my host. To this end, Intercon's Telnet tool provides all of the standard > Telnet options (including local echo), and works quite nicely. There is > only one 'page' of configurations (about 6 check boxes and an edit field > for the host info (name or address - including a popUp menu of the hosts > from your MacTCP hosts file), as opposed to the 6 (I believe) 'pages' of > options in TCPack. > So, in addition to price, consider what you want to do and how you > wish to accomplish it. > > Disclaimer: I know the folks at Intercon quite well, but have no financial > interest in their product line. > -- > Leonard Rosenthol > Software Ventures Corp. > MicroPhone II Development Team > Thanks, I'm glad someone who has really used both spoke up. One thing that you missed, however, is that you can also open a raw TCP connection. This will allow your program to connect to just about anything it wants to over that TCP connection. -- Kurt Baumann InterCon Systems Corporation 703.709.9890 Creators of fine TCP/IP products 703.709.9896 FAX for the Macintosh.