halam2@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU (Haseen Alam) (06/05/90)
In article <1874@murdu.oz> cjm@murdu.oz (Chris James Marone) writes: > > I'm looking for a chess program for the mac. I have a (very old) >version of Sargon and would like something more up to date -like one that >will play specific openings. Can anyone recommend something? Ideally >it would run on a MacII and a Plus. > >Thanks, Chris (cjm@murdu.ucs.unimelb.edu.au) I would like to hear opinions as well. Please state if it is color or not. If not does it work on a color Mac. Here is my opinion. I used to have Sargon III (presented to my brother after I upgraded to my IIci), and my ex-roommate had Chessmaster 2000. One day I was curious and had to try out something. I borrowed my roomies SE and his CM 2000. I plugged the two 1meg SE's with dual floppies right next to each other and started up the two chess games. On one Mac I would let the Mac make the first move, and on the other I would duplicate the move. So basically CM2000 and SargonIII were playing with each other. Just to get a fair idea, I did the following tests... SE #1 SE #2 Sargon played 1st CM 2000 played 2nd Sargon played 2nd CM 2000 played 1st CM 2000 played 1st Sargon played 2nd CM 2000 played 2nd Sargon played 1st First I played at the lowest level on both, and then on the next higher level. The results were interesting, but the whole thing was getting boring so I did not try out all the user levels. Whichever program started won the game, swapping machines had no effect. I used to think chess had a "No Win Strategy", ie if you do not want to win then it is harder to make you lose. Results indicate both Sargon III and ChessMaster 2000 are aggressive players. This makes sence from a programming perspective, if there are less items on the board then there will be less moves to scan. But this knowledge makes these games less challenging, since you can create traps by offering. If my hypothesis is correct, then the first person to move has an advantage, and you should not let the Mac move first if you want to have an edge on winning. It will be nice to see a comparison like this with Sargon IV and CM 2100. Does anyone have access to both of them? In any case I would be interested to hear good/bad remarks about some chess packages before I buy a color one. Haseen.
rsvp@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (R. Scott V. Paterson) (06/05/90)
I once saw a chess game for an IBM PC that actually had the chess pieces move by animation. The pieces would actually battle with one another. This is chess, so you always know which piece will kill another, but it's fun to watch two pawns going at it or a queen vaporizing a bishop... Does anyone know if this is in the works for the Macintosh? Thanks, -Scott
mwilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) (06/05/90)
In article <3513@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU> halam2@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU (Haseen Alam) writes: > First I played at the lowest level on both, and then on the next higher > level. The results were interesting, but the whole thing was getting boring > so I did not try out all the user levels. > > Whichever program started won the game, swapping machines had no effect. Well, since the lower user levels in those programs are created by cutting off parts of the move search, that might not be a very good test. The best test is to run them against each other at the highest level. That way you can see the strengths and weaknesses in their actual, unhandicapped game. It's quite possible that they are aggressive players at low levels and at high levels are more "reserved" in their actions, so to speak. -- Mark Wilkins -- "According to our contract, at precisely midnight of the night of her greatest triumph, the party of the first part, (that's you), agrees to render up her soul, now and forevermore, to the party of the second part. (That's me). Shall we go?"
rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) (06/06/90)
In article <3513@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU> halam2@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU (Haseen Alam) writes: > So basically CM2000 and SargonIII were playing with each other. [...] > Whichever program started won the game The player who moves first has an advantage. This is true for us humans as well as for computers. The proof is not so much by analysis as by checking the results of chess matches played over the last hundred years or so: statistically, white wins more often. > First I played at the lowest level on both, and then on the next higher > level. The results were interesting, but the whole thing was getting boring > so I did not try out all the user levels. Sounds like you didn't really mediate many games between the two programs. You'd probably need to play quite a few at each level to get any real notion of how the two stack up. It may not be worthwhile: since neither program plays like you do (I assume - see below), which one beats the other may not have much bearing on what kind of game each would give you. > Results indicate both Sargon III and > ChessMaster 2000 are aggressive players. [...] > But this knowledge makes these games less challenging, since > you can create traps by offering. I have never seen a computer chess program that played "like a human being". They have their strengths and weaknesses, as we have ours; if you learn a program's weakness and play to it, you'll do better against it, just as you would playing to a human's weak points. I'm not well familiar with the Mac's programs (I have Sargon III but haven't used it much) but I remember a program on a mainframe that played tactically well (leave a piece weakly protected and you'd lose it every time) but strategically poorly (little notion of proper development once its opening book was exhausted, poor control of the center), and it was terrible at end games. The way to beat it was to play a conservative, defensive game, while trading pieces evenly as quickly as you could. Your goal was to reach the end game quickly while remaining even in material and perhaps superior in position. Then you could clean up fairly easily. I've never liked computer opponents, since I like to concentrate on a strategic game, while they generally force me to focus on short-term tactics instead. But this just means that they're playing to *my* weakness. Sargon III on my Mac Plus could whup me regularly at a low setting, so you should take my comments with a grain, if not a bag, of salt. :-) BTW, I like Sargon III and have been considering getting Sargon IV for my Mac II. ========================================================================== Rick Holzgrafe | {sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual}!apple!rmh Software Engineer | AppleLink HOLZGRAFE1 rmh@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. | "All opinions expressed are mine, and do 20525 Mariani Ave. MS: 77-A | not necessarily represent those of my Cupertino, CA 95014 | employer, Apple Computer Inc."
kdq@demott.COM (Kevin D. Quitt) (06/06/90)
I'm unimpressed with the playing abilities of Sargon (from a
chess-playing standpoint, not from a programming standpoint), and I
refuse to continue to play with a "master" that sounds like a moose.
They both play agressively because that's easy to program, and makes
them seem better than they are. They both suffer seriously from the
horizon effect, and are therefore very susceptible to traps.
--
_
Kevin D. Quitt Manager, Software Development 34 12 N 118 27 W
DeMott Electronics Co. 14707 Keswick St. Van Nuys, CA 91405-1266
VOICE (818) 988-4975 FAX (818) 997-1190
MODEM (818) 997-4496 Telebit PEP last demott!kdq kdq@demott.com
96.37% of the statistics used in arguments are made up.halam2@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU (Haseen Alam) (06/06/90)
In article <7402@jarthur.Claremont.EDU> mwilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) writes: > > The best test is to run them against each other at the highest level. >-- Mark Wilkins > Maybe so, but at their highest levels both Sargon III and ChessMaster 2000 are extremely slow. And I did not want to put up with 2*SLOW. Now that both have their new versions, and we have faster Macs, it will be nice to see how they compare now. Haseen. -- .--------------------------------------------------------------------. | Haseen Ibne Alam Tel: (218)-728-2139 | | email : halam1@ub.d.umn.edu or halam@cola.d.umn.edu | `--------------------------------------------------------------------'
chris@imagine.ADMS-RAD.Unisys.COM (Chris Sterritt) (06/08/90)
In article <3513@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU> halam2@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU (Haseen Alam) writes: >In article <1874@murdu.oz> cjm@murdu.oz (Chris James Marone) writes: >> I'm looking for a chess program for the mac. I have a (very old) >>version of Sargon and would like something more up to date -like one that >>will play specific openings. Can anyone recommend something? Ideally >>it would run on a MacII and a Plus. > > Here is my opinion. I used to have Sargon III (presented to my brother > after I upgraded to my IIci), and my ex-roommate had Chessmaster 2000. One > day I was curious and had to try out something. I borrowed my roomies SE > and his CM 2000. I plugged the two 1meg SE's with dual floppies right next > to each other and started up the two chess games. On one Mac I would let > the Mac make the first move, and on the other I would duplicate the move. > So basically CM2000 and SargonIII were playing with each other. > [results deleted] You say that whoever moves first wins, but I've found this not to be the case always. When Psion came out, it's major claim to fame was its three-d board, and that it would beat Sargon III. SO, using switcher (this was a few years ago :-), I played them against each other and Psion won both games. This was at the lowest level. Has anyone ported GNU Chess 3.0 to the mac? ============================================================================ = Chris Sterritt - "Kleenex makes my nose run" - chris@adms-rad.unisys.com = = "The secret is dirt. D-I-R-T. 'D' as in dirt, 'I' as in dirt, 'R' as in = = dirt, 'T' as in Orange Pekoe." -- Churchy LaFemme = ============================================================================
chris@imagine.ADMS-RAD.Unisys.COM (Chris Sterritt) (06/08/90)
In article <7402@jarthur.Claremont.EDU> mwilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) writes: >In article <3513@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU> halam2@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU (Haseen Alam) writes: >> First I played at the lowest level on both, and then on the next higher >> level. The results were interesting, but the whole thing was getting boring >> so I did not try out all the user levels. >> >> Whichever program started won the game, swapping machines had no effect. > > Well, since the lower user levels in those programs are created by cutting >off parts of the move search, that might not be a very good test. > > The best test is to run them against each other at the highest level. >That way you can see the strengths and weaknesses in their actual, >unhandicapped game. It's quite possible that they are aggressive players at >low levels and at high levels are more "reserved" in their actions, so to >speak. Interestingly enough (to me :-), I'm involved in just such a project at the moment. I am playing GNU Chess 3.0 (on a Sun 4/260) against Sargon III on my Mac Plus, giving GNU around 24 hours a move (!) and Sargon around 1. Please, don't beat me up for being biased :-) because I am doing this to test some of GNU's features to make sure they work before committing it to some postal-chess type games over the CHESS-L group. So far the game is pretty slow going; GNU is looking ahead about 10-12 moves, Sargon about 7, and very little has happened. Contact me directly if you'd like the move list. -- chris sterritt ============================================================================ = Chris Sterritt - "Kleenex makes my nose run" - chris@adms-rad.unisys.com = = "The secret is dirt. D-I-R-T. 'D' as in dirt, 'I' as in dirt, 'R' as in = = dirt, 'T' as in Orange Pekoe." -- Churchy LaFemme = ============================================================================
PAT@rcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Patrick Plaisted) (06/08/90)
Well, the strongest chess playing program I found for the macintosh was Psion chess. I played it vs. Sargon III, four games at about four minutes per move, and Psion won all of them. Also, Psion running on my little mac plus, beat a pd chess game on a VAX 8550. I can't vouch for the quality of the VAX program, but my mac was giving up 10 times or so the number crunching power. Has anyone tried Sargon or Psion vs. GnuChess? I've heard it's quite good..... =>Pat =========================================================================== Patrick Plaisted |pat@agvax2.ag.ohio-state.edu System Programmer | or if you want to Ohio Cooperative Extension Service | torture me with unix: The Ohio State University |pat@klingon.eng.ohio-state.edu 2120 Fyffe Rd. Room #109 | Columbus, Ohio 43210 | (614) 292-4338 =========================================================================== This line intentionally not left blank...