hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu (Eiji Hirai) (10/09/90)
In comp.sys.mac.games and rec.games.board, I wrote: >Do any of you wargaming folk have any recommendations or non-recommendations >for wargames on the Macintosh? >I've played Ancient Art of War and am currently looking at the following >titles: >Ancient Art of War at Sea (Broderbund) >Halls of Montezuma (Strategic Studies Group) >American Civil War Vol. 2 (Strategic Studies Group) >Panzer Battles (Strategic Studies Group) (Electronic Arts) >Patton vs. Rommel (Electronic Arts) >Are they any I should avoid? I tried in vain to look for a review of Panzer >Battles and Civil War. I wonder what these are like... If you're the >wargaming type, would you buy any of these? Would you shy away from any of >these? Please tell me! Halp! I've compiled and edited the responses. Thanks for all who responded! You're great folks. So far, Halls of Montezuma and Panzer Battles seem like games that are worth getting. SSG supports them with additional scenarios that you buy. Ancient Art of War at Sea seems more like an arcade game with limited strategy, though fun. Patton vs. Rommel seems like a one scenario game and thus is a bit limited, though it's cheap. Civil War has yet to be released. According to MacZone whom I phoned today, SSG has delayed its release continuously since July. However, if it comes out, it should be similar to Halls of Montezuma and Panzer Battles. There are some other wargames (like Strategic Conquest) but I haven't seen them advertized anywhere. I decided to get Halls of Montezuma, Panzer Battles and Ancient Art of War at Sea despite its problems. Thanks again folks! -------------------- From d88-cbr@nada.kth.se Fri Oct 5 06:12:56 1990 Date: Fri, 5 Oct 90 11:14:52 +0100 From: d88-cbr@nada.kth.se Subject: Re: Wargames on the mac. Warning for Ancient Art of War at Sea. While this game looks beautiful to run, actually the ship to ship fighting is the best looking I have seen, this game is crippled by the same fault as Ancient Art of War. After the first games you learn and the stupidity of the computer becomes obvious. The computer needs a huge starting advantage to win and then it wins immidiately. /Chris -------------------- From munson@acacia.Berkeley.EDU Fri Oct 5 11:20:23 1990 Date: Fri, 5 Oct 90 08:22:36 PDT From: munson@acacia.Berkeley.EDU (Ethan V. Munson) Subject: Re: Wargames on the Mac? Organization: UCB CS I strongly recommend Halls of Montezuma. It feels very much like a wargame and has a nice variety of scenarios. Patton vs. Rommel is a good game but only has one scenario. It does have some variants on that scenario. Ethan -------------------- From delaney@xn.ll.mit.edu Fri Oct 5 13:19:28 1990 Date: Fri, 5 Oct 90 13:19:04 EDT From: "John R. Delaney" <delaney@xn.ll.mit.edu> Subject: RE: Wargames on the Mac? I believe that Panzer Battles is actually an SSG game distributed by Electronic Arts. There is also a new SSG game for the Mac, Gold of the Americas. I am told it resembled the old SPI board game Conquistador (if that reference means anything to you). John -------------------- From macdonal@tramp.Colorado.EDU Fri Oct 5 13:47:56 1990 Date: Fri, 5 Oct 90 11:49:45 -0600 From: macdonal@tramp.Colorado.EDU (MACDONALD GREGG HUGH) Subject: Mac Wargames I've played both The Ancient art of war and Patton vs. Rommel. The Ancient of War is fairly decent except for the fact that by creating armies as fast as you can you deprive the computer of the ability to build armies for itself since theres a max of available armies (I forget how many.) My advice would be to avoid Patton vs. Rommel. Its mechanics are poor and its algorithm is rather easy to beat. I paid 20 some and it wasn't near worth it. I think it may have gone down in price but I try something else first. A fellow wargamer, Gregg -------------------- From Michael.Wolf@MEL.CIPL.UIOWA.EDU Fri Oct 5 13:59:21 1990 Date: 5 Oct 1990 13:00:50 CDT From: Michael.Wolf@MEL.CIPL.UIOWA.EDU Subject: About those gamse you asked about for the mac. Ancient Art of War At Sea..... Not too bad a game I liked it and it is not my type of game necessarily. Rommel vs Patton I did not like this game, I felt there wasn't enough variation. Hope this may help M Wolf -------------------- From jbb@mvaxcs1.cse.nau.edu Fri Oct 5 15:30:38 EDT 1990 From: jbb@mvaxcs1.cse.nau.edu (Jon Bonnell) Subject: Re: Wargames on the Mac? Date: 5 Oct 90 16:27:20 GMT Organization: Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff AZ The only other wargame for the Mac I can think of is Strategic Conquest (don't know the company). Its a real favorite in the computer lab I work at. -- Jon Bonnell jbb@mvaxcs1.cse.nau.edu Disclaimer :NAU has no opinion and I have mine... -------------------- From EKANKAANPAA@cc.Helsinki.FI Fri Oct 5 16:15:50 1990 Date: Fri, 5 Oct 90 22:16 EET DST From: EKANKAANPAA@cc.Helsinki.FI Subject: Mac Wargames. Hello there :) Here are some responses for your posting on news. I purchased Patton vs. Rommel and Panzer Battles a few weeks ago. And I can really recommend the latter (Panzer Battles). What became of Patton vs. Rommel... it could be a nice little game, but I bought it at the same time as Panzer Battles and haven't played it except once :) It's not bad... but compared to Panzer Battles.. well you know ;) Ok... a few words about Panzer Battles then. First.. it's only distributed through Electronic Arts. It's made by SSG and it's of same series as Halls of Montezuma and that Civil War game. Hmmm... I haven't got Halls of Montezuma (yet), but it was reviewed favorably in MacWorld, if I remember right, at the end of '89. All three games use a game system called Battlefront, accompanied by WarPlan, a scenario editor. The system is nice. I'll try to describe it here in a few words :) The player acts as a 'army' commander. He has up to 4 divisions in his command, each division (or Senior HQ, if a different scale are used) having four regiments. Each regiment has up to four battalions. Furthermore, each division can have up to four independent battalions that can be attached to any regiment. Ok. As you start battling, as I said, you act as a higher commander. That means you give orders to Regiments. The orders include commands such as Deploy, move to reserve, attack, probe, defend etc. (11 different commands). Then you just say 'orders done' and thr battalions follow these orders in the best way possible, after taking into account the skill of leaders, terrain, enemy positions. So despite all the large number of counters you see on the screen, controlling them is easy. And what's best is... the battalions really do their best :) Further details include air-support you can deal between regiments, special training of troops, their experience, supply, fatigue and casualties. The Warplan editor allows you to edit maps/units/anything in the game at any time... even during the middle of a scenario. And it is quite easy to use (note: quite :) so making your own scenarios is not hard (in fact I'm planning to test it soon... I maybe making some scenario of the WinterWar (Finns vs. Russians in 1939). Hmm... what else can I say? Of course, the graphics. If you have a color Mac... they are great. If you have black and white.. I'd say it's decent. Well... I have played lots of board wargames, but only a few with computers, so I can't really compare it to other systems. But compared to boardgames, it's almost better (it can be played with two players too). At first, the idea of the command-chain may sound peculiar... but in my opinion it's a) good, b) realistic and c) easy to play ;) Ok.... Panzer Battles has six rather unknown panzer battles on the Eastern Front. (In fact, five as my copy couldn't run one). They are of various scales... junior headquarters (the units that do, in fact, the fighting) range from battalions to divisions... and Senior HQ's from Regiments to Armies. They prove to be nice challenges and there aer also instructions on how to make variants of the scenarios. For myself, I can say I have enjoyed it. And I recommend it (or any of the three). I don't know much about Halls of Montezuma, but it's based on a history of battles of the US Marines from Mexico to Vietnam. Civil War Battles is just a rumour so I can't say anything about it. Hmmm.... reading what I have written... it seems bit confusing :) But I'll be glad to answer any questions and describe Pazner Battles in further detail if you like. So drop me a note. Also if you have end up buying Halls of Montezuma or Civil War... I'd like to know more about them... Yours, Esa Kankaanpaa.... ekankaanpaa@hylka.helsinki.fi PS. A few words on Patton vs. Rommel: It's cheap and surely worth the money. I just can't tell much about it as I have played it only once :) If you want to know more about it... again, send me a note. -------------------- From EKANKAANPAA@cc.Helsinki.FI Sun Oct 7 15:11:16 1990 Date: Sun, 7 Oct 90 21:12 EET DST From: EKANKAANPAA@cc.Helsinki.FI Subject: Re: Mac Wargames. HiYa ! Yes... all three games are made by same company (SSG). From all the information I have about Halls of Montezuma I have got (pictures, magazine articles and so on), I'm 99% sure they use the same BattleFront System (Civil War Battles was mentioned in 'About Panzer Battles' as an upcoming title, so I assume it uses the same system too). I hold that 1% in reserve just in case, if for some very weird reason I'm wrong ;). Furthermore ... the game manual seems like a copy of Halls of Montezuma manual (examples and so on). Convincing?? Huh :) Hmmm.. people have different tastes, but in my opinion... you won't be dissappointed if you buy Panzer Battles or Halls of Montezuma. As I mentioned, I have played boardgames (but no computer wargames) before. And I think Battlefront games do their job nicely. They remove all the boring subroutines and allow you fully enjoy the situations and tactics. And not to mention (again) the graphics. They are designed (Map and Counters) to represent as much of a boardgame as possible. The maps are very nicely done, as are counters (and you can change what you dont like :). If you are interested in getting 'any' kind of wargame... I'm sure you'll be satisfied with Panzer Battles / Halls of Montezuma. I really hope to hear your comments (i.e are they really as good as I think) if you buy one/both (also I'm interested in hearing what scenarios there are in Halls of Montezuma.) Also... as said I said, I'm planning to explore WarPlan by making a few scenarios... but more on that later ;) Yours, EK -------------------- From bruceh@dad.MENTOR.COM Fri Oct 5 19:01:16 1990 Date: Fri, 5 Oct 90 11:21:55 PDT From: bruceh@dad.MENTOR.COM (Bruce Holm) Subject: Re: Wargames on the Mac? Can you please copy me on what you find out. I have not heard of American Civil War Vol. 2. I've heard of the rest. Where did you see it? Is it available mailorder? As for PATTON VS ROMMEL, I have it but it isn't that great. It lets you conveniently "program" (using the graphical interface) where each unit goes but then it only tries to go there...it may or may not make it depending on how the fighting goes. I find the game very inflexible, one and only one scenario and hard to beat the Germans at that. I got bored with it almost immediately. I've been tempted to get Ancient Art of War at Sea but heard reviews of it being not that great. If you hear differently, let me know. I've heard that Halls of Montezuma is similar to Patton vs. Rommel in that it lets you tell where each unit goes but they may or may not do it, based on moral, fighting success, etc. I like a wargame to let you place your units where you want them. --Bruce -------------------- From cbmvax!uunet!gistdev!tasha!andy Fri Oct 5 20:53:50 1990 To: hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu Subject: Panzer Battles, Patton vs. Rommel, et al. Date: 5 Oct 90 15:59:19 CDT (Fri) From: cbmvax!uunet!tasha!andy (Andy Warinner) >Do any of you wargaming folk have any recommendations or non-recommendations >for wargames on the Macintosh? >Ancient Art of War at Sea (Broderbund) I would recommend the Ancient Art of War at Sea. It has something of a "video game" feel to it (the maneuver and firing of the ship) but it is a real challenge to learn how to fight your ship. Commanding three ships in a battle is very difficult. It is a good simulation of ship-to-ship combat. The scenarios are weak on the strategy side. It doesn't require much strategic genius to win a scenario. If you are good enough at ship-to-ship combat, you can easily win the scenarios. >American Civil War Vol. 2 (Strategic Studies Group) When I talked to a mail-order place last month (MacZone), they said American Civil War would not be out until November. Has SSG released it? Judging by my experience with other SSG games, I am sure it will be very good. >Halls of Montezuma (Strategic Studies Group) >Panzer Battles (Electronic Arts) I am a big fan of Panzer Battles. It is the only board-game style strategy game for the Mac (with the possible exception of Patton vs. Rommel). Panzer Battles (Panzer Battles) is a corps-level simulation of 20th century warfare. As corps commander you are in charge of up to three divisions, each of which is composed up to four regiments and 4 battalions of divisional assets that can be assigned to individual regiments. Each regiment is composed of up to four battalions plus any battalions assigned from the divisional reserve. You control the offensive and defensive modes of the regiments and what objectives they move towards but you do not control the individual battalion movements. The movement of individual battalions is controlled by the computer based on the "intelligence" of the regimental commander and the terrain. You do control the placement and movement of the divisional HQs. Panzer Battles is a somewhat subtle game. Since you don't control the individual battalion movement you must control the battalions through their regiments. It takes some time to learn how to control regiments by choosing their objectives, pulling them into reserve when they get tired or entangled and placing the divisional HQ in a strategic position. Panzer Battles is easy to learn and a very playable game but it is difficult to master. You can play against a human opponent or against the computer. The computer is a very competent opponent but will not pull any startling maneuvers. As for the technical details, Panzer Battles can run on all Macs from the Mac Plus on up. It supports color and '030 machines. It might run slowly on a Mac Plus (but then just about everything does). Panzer Battles is MultiFinder-friendly. It also comes with a scenario editor "WarPlan" that you can create new scenarios or alter existing scenarios. The scenarios come with suggestions for "what if" variations that are interesting. SSG produces two games based on their "Battlefront" system: Panzer Battles and Halls of Montezuma. Halls of Montezuma is a series of scenarios involving Marine Corps battles (Mexico City, Belleau Wood, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Inchon, Hue, and a couple of others I can't remember). The scenarios in Panzer Battles (Moscow, Kursk, Minsk, Kiev and several others that I haven't played yet) are all German vs. USSR eastern front WWII battles. The scenarios are interchangeable, you can play Halls of Montezuma scenarios with Panzer Battles. The scenarios in Halls of Montezuma are usually frontal assault battles of attrition. Panzer Battles scenarios involve much more maneuver and positioning. I prefer the Panzer Battles scenarios but that is just a personal preference. SSG also produces a quarterly magazine that includes two or three scenarios for their Battlefront system that you can enter with the scenario editor include with Halls of Montezuma or Panzer Battles. A year's subscription is $15. It is a good value (I have been hooked on the 1940 France vs. German battle at Sedan lately). >Patton vs. Rommel (Electronic Arts) I played Patton vs. Rommel a lot on my old Commodore. When I got my SE/30 I bought the Mac version of Patton vs Rommel. To my great disappointment, Patton vs. Rommel does not work on the SE/30. Patton vs. Rommel has been around for a long time but it has not been upgraded to handle the new Macs. It is a pity because it is an excellent game. On the other hand, it is pretty cheap. If you find a patch or hack to make it work on '030 machines, let me know. I would love to play it again. If you do decide to purchase Panzer Battles or Halls of Montezuma, feel free to drop me a line if you want to swap strategies or scenarios! Andrew Warinner | "Semper ubi sub ubi" - J. Caesar GIST, Inc. | Standard | EMAIL: andy@gistdev.gist.com disclaimer... | {uunet, uiucuxc}!gistdev!andy -------------------- From MM93ECOF@MIAMIU.BITNET Sun Oct 7 12:58:51 1990 Date: Sun, 07 Oct 90 12:48:27 EST From: MM93ECOF@MIAMIU.BITNET Subject: Re: Wargames on the Mac? I like Halls of Montezuma from strategic studies group. They also make Panzar Battles and the Civil War series. It is basically a boardgame type game, but they use the power of the computer to introduce more complexity/chance into the actions. The program is Mac-like, and is much better on a color Mac than b&w. The secnarios in HOM are tough to beat the computer (and can be played face-to-face). I have ssen Panzar Battles, but not played it. It's the same game system, just different scenarios. Overall, I like them. A caution though, I have not been a fanatical board player for many years. The playability of a game is an important feature to me. They also produce a magazaine called Run-5 which has additional scenarios (a disk based subscription is about $65 per year). Mark Mark E. McBride Voice: (513) 529-2864 Dept. of Economics Fax: (513) 529-6992 208 Laws Hall Bitnet: mm93ecof@miamiu Miami University (Ohio) AppleLink: X2008 Oxford, OH 45056 -------------------- From u894687@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au Sun Oct 7 21:37:02 1990 Date: Mon, 8 Oct 90 11:38:14 +1000 From: Lee Edward John Arnould <u894687@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au> Subject: Re: Wargames on the Mac? I have a game called UMS (universal Military Simulator) the idea is good but the implementation is average. You are given set scenario to which you can play or you can set up your own. You can have Leopard Tanks at Waterloo. Unfortunatly it is very slow to use and the map can be confussing. But all in all it is a good war game. Could you forward any information you get on war games to me as I am also interested in war games for the mac. -- # Lee E. J. Arnould .... LEJA ** ****** ****** ** # ADDRESS ** ** ** ** ** # u894687@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au ** **** ** ******** # ** ** ** ** ** # " Life don't talk to me about life..." ******************** ** # -------------------- From orc@sics.se Mon Oct 8 09:11:29 1990 From: orc@sics.se (Lars-H}kan L|nn) Subject: Re: Wargames on the Mac? Date: m}n 8 okt 1990, 14:13:51 CET Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science I have Halls of Montezuma and I rate it about 4 on a scale from 1 to 10 thus being number one sofar as it goes for wargames on computers. I would also recommend you to check out "Fire-Brigade" from Panther Games of Australia. F-B is a rather nice (when it comes to using and looks) implementation of their monster board game *system* (they tell me) used in "Trial of Strength", although as for all computerized war games which have emerged sofar, you never know what lies beneath the surface. Fire-Brigade rates about 3.5 on my scale. I think computer war games still are somewhere back at a Tactics II level if you compare them to the sophistication level of board games. Developers still think in board game terms instead of thinking about what can be done with computers and in what way computerized simulations differ from board games. There's a lot of talk about AI and different buzz-words, but obviously the gaming people using such terms don't know their meaning. Bad simulations don't get any better just because you put them in a computer. I think it's like when people got hold of their first mac - they'd usually ended up writing MacWrite documents using all the fonts there were - just because they had the possibility. Ah well, I'm getting old and bitter ... :-) both of the above games are OK until something better comes along. Happy gaming! Orc Lars-H}kan L|nn (orc@sics.se) Swedish Institute of Computer Science (SICS), Box 1263, S-164 28 KISTA, Sweden -------------------- From bkuo%nunki.usc.edu@usc.edu Mon Oct 8 12:33:30 1990 Date: Mon, 8 Oct 90 09:35:55 PDT From: bkuo%nunki.usc.edu@usc.edu (Benjamin Kuo) Subject: Re: Wargames on the Mac? Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Mailing you my reply, if you want to repeat these comments go ahead: Ancient Art of War at Sea: YES! Great, fun, but more in the "Pirates" genre than the strategy involved in Ancient Art of War... Patton Vs. Rommel: Sorta iffy in terms of gaming... There's also a program (I forget the name) which is basically a "battle" simulation program, which sells separate packages for different battles i.e. Gettysburg, etc. which is REALLY good, from Rainbird. Benjamin Kuo -------------------- From mccabe@cs.unc.edu Mon Oct 8 14:18:19 1990 Date: Mon, 8 Oct 90 14:19:50 -0400 From: Daniel McCabe <mccabe@cs.unc.edu> Subject: Re: Wargames on the Mac? Organization: University Of North Carolina, Chapel Hill I have played Halls of Montezuma and Patton vs. Rommel. I highly recommend Halls of Montezuma, but I didn't like Patton vs. Rommel. Halls of Montezuma is like a traditional board wargame (or at least me understanding of what they are like, since I have never found anyone to play one with). You are provided with 10 scenarios of actual USMC battles and can play either side. I didn't like Patton vs. Rommel because the play seemed a bit simplistic. I don't have the game any more and it was a while ago that I tried it, so I don't remember it in too much detail. One game that you may want to investigate which was not on your list is Strategic Conquest. It falls into the limited intelligence class of games. You need to explore your world to find resources and the enemy. I enjoy it a lot. I also spend too much time playing it (at the higher levels, my games can last up to 10 hours). Cheers, danm -----end----- -- Eiji Hirai @ Mathematics Dept., Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA 19081-1397 hirai@cs.swarthmore.edu | hirai@swarthmr.bitnet | uunet!hirai%cs.swarthmore.edu Copyright 1990 by Eiji Hirai. All Rights Reserved. Permission to reproduce or quote explicitly denied except on Usenet. I don't speak for Swarthmore College.