goutal@dec-parrot.UUCP (01/03/86)
In one of the recent comments on subways, one reader commented that he didn't feel endangered on subways, and also described the graffiti as often "appalling". It's been 5 or 10 years since I've been on the (Boston) subways. My recollection is that some of the newer or more-recently-renovated stops are quite nice, well-lit, not-very-threatening, at least superficially. Even the best of them, though, were really squalid when looked at with a more jaundiced eye. Dunno if I ever felt endangered therein -- I'm kinda naive, I guess. Was over in Munich, Germany recently (November). Made a point to take the subway (as well as rental-car) around town, and to take a train for a day-trip to Salzburg. At some point, I hope to relate my observations about the latter. The subways in Munich, at least in the parts of town where I happened to go, were spotless. No Graffiti Anywhere! No mud, no slime, no decades of garbage just waiting to ooze out from under the surface shine and getcha! Yes, I cannot tell a lie, I saw a few soda (!) bottles and cans on the roadbed in one of the larger stations; they appeared to have been there no more than a day, and by the looks of everything else weren't likely to stay there much longer. To be sure, some of the way I saw it must have been the glamour of being in a foreign country. At the same time, I must say that I was edgier than usual since about the only word I could say reliably was "danke". I'd say they cancelled each other out. No turnstiles! (Is Boston the only US city that has those?) You buy a ticket at a vending machine outside. Downstairs is the usual concourse with stores and stalls, though extremely little of the fried-dough-and-a-shine-mister, carny atmosphere of, say, Park St Under. From there, you pass through an archway to get to the platforms, or to the stairs to the platforms, depending. As you pass through the archway, there are little machines into which you're supposed to poke your ticket; after some number of such punches or stamps, it's used up. Note that I say *supposed* to -- lotsa people didn't. Guessing from other cues I picked up in daily affairs, I'd say they must have had season tickets or something, and didn't need to have them stamped. There was some kind of an office with a window to one side, with what looked to be standard-issue German cops inside, and they didn't seem bothered by this practice. Perhaps it was just my preconceptions, but I had the feeling that cooperation and 'the honour system' prevailed in the subway system as well as in everything else there. It's like, nobody's threatening people with "don't abuse it or we'll take it away from you", but it seems to be common knowledge, like 1+1=2 and 1-1=0, that if you destroy something, it won't be there anymore, and then you won't be able to use it. Odd. -- Kenn Goutal
percus@acf4.UUCP (Allon G. Percus) (01/04/86)
> Perhaps it was just my preconceptions, > but I had the feeling that cooperation and 'the honour system' > prevailed in the subway system as well as in everything else there. > It's like, nobody's threatening people with "don't abuse it or we'll > take it away from you", but it seems to be common knowledge, like 1+1=2 > and 1-1=0, that if you destroy something, it won't be there anymore, > and then you won't be able to use it. Odd. The "honor system" is common on many European local transit systems, especially the German, Austrian, and Hungarian systems. The principal is that they have ticket inspections every once in a blue moon, but if you are caught without a valid ticket, there is a VERY heavy fine (enough to compensate for all the times you didn't pay). . ------- |-----| A. G. Percus |II II| (ARPA) percus@acf4 |II II| (NYU) percus.acf4 |II II| (UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus |II II| -------
hrs@homxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) (01/04/86)
The originator of this article exprees amazement at the "honor system" that the European transit systems seem to use. In these systems it is usually a variant upon the following scenario. 1. Buy a ticket, often for multiple rides, at a ticket booth, newsstand, tobacconist etc. 2. Get the ticket stamped on the platform, bus stop, bus or tram when you begin your ride. 3. You are now entitled to ride for a set time period. You can get off and on several times within this period. 4. There are "inspectors" who occasionally get on the vehicle and ask to look at your ticket. If you don't have a valid ticket you can be assessed a fine on the spot ($10-50). If you don't have the money you can get arrested! 5. According to local residents, the management keeps enough inspectors employed to deter cheating. It takes fewer inspectors, however, than ticket-takers or conductors. Many people also have weekly, or monthly, or even yearly passes. The system allows for fast boearding and entry. Notice how long a bus has to wait at the stop to let all board and drop a fare into the box. As far as I know, only the San Diego streetcar uses this system in the US. Herman Silbiger ihnp4!homxb!hrs
David.Black@A.CS.CMU.EDU (01/06/86)
Buffalo also uses the honor system to collect fares on the subway portion of their light rail line -- the above ground portion on what used to be Main Street is free. --Dave
edg@micropro.UUCP (Ed Greenberg) (01/07/86)
In article <238@decwrl.DEC.COM> goutal@dec-parrot.UUCP writes: >No turnstiles! (Is Boston the only US city that has those?) >-- Kenn Goutal New York has turnstiles. A set fare (I'd quote it, but I'm not sure any more. My first ride was .15 and my last .90. I think $1.00 is in force now.) lets you in. You stay in as long as you like. If you leave, it's another buck. San Francisco Muni Metro (light rail) has turnstiles in the "subway" portion. In the street portion the operator collects fares like a bus. A ride was .60 before Jan '86. Don't know now. The muni system issues a transfer good for a few hours. Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) has entrance "gates" like turnstiles. When activated, a barrier folds into the pillars of the gate. You break a beam on the way in and they close again. You activate the gate by inserting a ticket. The ticket is purchased for any amount that you wish and, on entrance, the station of entry is recorded on it. On exit, the appropriate fare is deducted and the new balance is printed on the ticket. When the ticket has a zero balance, you don't get it back. Entry and exit at the same station costs $2 (BART promotes this a the means for a "tour.") Normal rides cost from .60 to about $2.00. (Pre '86 prices.) I took a two hour "tour" and exited one station (three or four blocks) away from my entry point. The cost was the minimum (.60). BART IS FUN. The operator seems to do nothing more than look out the window and delay the train at the station if necessary. Otherwise the system runs totally automatically (aren't computers wonderful?) There are very few signals that I've observed. The train console displays the speed limit and the speed. The train speeds up and slows down according to the limit, maintaining a speed just below that limit. It seems to speed up and slow down in chunks. For example, approaching a station, the train seems to stabilize at two intermediate speeds before coming to the platform, and then another intermediate speed while stopping. As a former NYC subway rider, I found BART to be fascinating. One time, I was showing a visiting New Yorker. We were looking into the operators compartment, and he opened the door and invited us in. He didn't touch a control in all the time we were there. -e DISCLAIMER: Please feel free to correct me if you have more to contribute. -- Ed Greenberg | {hplabs,glacier}!well!micropro!edg MicroPro International Corp. | {ucbvax,decwrl}!dual!micropro!edg San Rafael, California | {lll-crg,ptsfa}!micropro!edg
rees@apollo.uucp (Jim Rees) (01/07/86)
The Washington, DC Metro uses the same fare cards as BART. I've always been tempted to try the cards from one in the other system, but I never remember to bring the right fare card along. Anyone tried it?
jeffj@sfmin.UUCP (J.S.Jonas) (01/08/86)
> In article <238@decwrl.DEC.COM> goutal@dec-parrot.UUCP writes: > >No turnstiles! (Is Boston the only US city that has those?) > >-- Kenn Goutal > > New York has turnstiles. A set fare (I'd quote it, but I'm not sure any > more. My first ride was .15 and my last .90. I think $1.00 is in force The East coast is full of turnstiles! The current token costs $1.00, and is the approx. the size of a quarter. The NY subway has at least 3 styles of turnstiles. The "old" ones have a large wood "X" that lies on a horizontal plane and is pushed forward. The "newer" ones have three large pins approx. perpendicular to each other, and rotates at an angle so that two are pointing down and one obstructs your passage. Both these styles are only in operation when the token booth is open, since they can be jumped. The unattended turnstile is really a revolving door with a ratchet (so it won't spin backwards) and only allows one person to enter after inserting a token and pushing in the plunger (to wind it up?). This has solid doors, unlike the exit-only "cheese-slicer" revolving doors. The PATH (Port Authority Trans-Hudson) trains also use the 'newer' style turnstiles, but they have two kinds of coinboxes. Most accept coins and have a display to show how much you put in (I use quarters, I suppose dimes and nickels work too). 75 cents gets you in. Another takes a $1 bill, gives you back a quarter and activates the turnstile. The PATH is a toy system compared to the NYC subway. It is a small system (third rail) with 5 terminal destinations and 4 lines (2 at night). It uses small cars, much shorter than any subway car. Washington DC's subway (the Metro) works like BART, with vending machines to buy cards and add fares. You use the card to enter and pass the barrier. I didn't like the barrier - I was afraid it was a guillotine to chop off my legs if I didn't have enough fare on my card. The fare is deducted from the card when you exit. BTW, I live in Highland Park, New Jersey and I see the Northeast Corrider from my window. I am pleased to see that the center two tracks are being replaced by continuously welded rails on concrete ties. It is shared by New Jersey Transit and Amtrack. New Jersey Transit suppiles local service, and is upgrading its facilities. They are installing raised platforms at stations where there are currently no platforms at all. This will allow the use of the center doors (which don't have steps)(the end doors have steps to get to street level). I find it reassuring to have an electrified line near me, since it would be very hard to pull down and abandon. It should be in service for a loooong time. Jeff 'subway surfer' Skot {ihnp4 | allegra | mcnc ..} attunix ! jeffj
lee@rochester.arpa (Lee C. Moore) (01/10/86)
I have never tried using a Bart card on D.C.'s Metro but I know that it has worked at least once. I lived in the D.C. area when Metro opened and I remember reading in the newspaper an article about a pre-opening tour of the Metro that was giving to reporters. One of the reporters was from S.F. and he tried his Bart card and it worked! A Metro spokesperson later said this would be fixed but I don't know if it ever happened. lee
roma@uiucuxc.CSO.UIUC.EDU (01/10/86)
> The Washington, DC Metro uses the same fare cards as BART.
If my memory is correct, these magnetic fare cards first originated on
the Illinois Central electric suburban lines in the Chicago area about
1967. I recall that there were LOTS of bugs (and headaches) when the
system was introduced. I also remember hearing that this system was
tried on the Long Island, too. Can anyone verify this?
Unlike BART and the DC Metro, IC's cards are 'ride based', rather than
'value based'. That is, when they're used, a ride is deducted, as opposed
to a value being deducted based on the ride. Of course, there are checks
made to preclude a commuter from using his/her ticket beyond the zone for
which it was purchased.
I've always been curious as to the recording format for these tickets, but
the railroads concerned are understandably reluctant to divulge details.
Has anyone figured out anything interesting about them?
Jon Roma
Computing Services Office, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
UUCP: {ihnp4,pur-ee,convex}!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!roma
ARPANET: roma%uiucuxc@uiuc.arpa
CSNET: roma%uiucuxc@uiuc.csnetedg@micropro.UUCP (Ed Greenberg) (01/11/86)
In article <2b310f5d.1de6@apollo.uucp> rees@apollo.uucp (Jim Rees) writes: >The Washington, DC Metro uses the same fare cards as BART. I've always >been tempted to try the cards from one in the other system, but I never >remember to bring the right fare card along. Anyone tried it? The Washington Metro card did not work in Bart faregates. On this note... A friend of mine asked me to mail him a bart card. I did, and he did some work with magnetic tape developer on it. He next asked for a card on which there had been an entry, but no exit. I couldn't think of any good way to get one (that I was willing to try) so the project stopped there. It could be revived. -e -- Ed Greenberg | {hplabs,glacier}!well!micropro!edg MicroPro International Corp. | {ucbvax,decwrl}!dual!micropro!edg San Rafael, California | {lll-crg,ptsfa}!micropro!edg
faunt@hplabs.UUCP (Doug Faunt) (01/11/86)
> In article <2b310f5d.1de6@apollo.uucp> rees@apollo.uucp (Jim Rees) writes: > >The Washington, DC Metro uses the same fare cards as BART. I've always > >been tempted to try the cards from one in the other system, but I never > >remember to bring the right fare card along. Anyone tried it? > > On this note... A friend of mine asked me to mail him a bart card. I > did, and he did some work with magnetic tape developer on it. He next > asked for a card on which there had been an entry, but no exit. I > couldn't think of any good way to get one (that I was willing to try) so > the project stopped there. It could be revived. > -e I've tried both fare cards in the other system. They flashed the message "see station agent" each time. I've not tried the wrong card in the ticket issuing machine, now that I think of it. I don't have a METRO card any more. I'm willing to get a BART card with an entry, but no exit. Get in touch with me, Ed. ...!hplabs!faunt -- ....!hplabs!faunt faunt@hplabs.ARPA HP is not responsible for anything I say here. In fact, what I say here may have been generated by a noisy telephone line.
faunt@hplabs.UUCP (Doug Faunt) (01/11/86)
> The Washington, DC Metro uses the same fare cards as BART. I've always > been tempted to try the cards from one in the other system, but I never > remember to bring the right fare card along. Anyone tried it? Yeah, I tried it both ways. I wanted it to allow me to enter, and then charge me for the trip to the other city and back. It just said "see station agent". Sigh. No vision, these guys. -- ....!hplabs!faunt faunt@hplabs.ARPA HP is not responsible for anything I say here. In fact, what I say here may have been generated by a noisy telephone line.
mikel@codas.ATT.UUCP (Mikel Manitius) (01/13/86)
In article <238@decwrl.DEC.COM> goutal@dec-parrot.UUCP writes: >No turnstiles! (Is Boston the only US city that has those?) >-- Kenn Goutal The Montreal Metro has turnstiles. Basically you pay a fixed fare and go anywhere you like in the city. If you get on a bus, you get a yellow trasfer ticket, with a punch code (they used to be blue), when you transfer busses, you just show it to the next driver. If you enter the Metro, you feed it into the turnstile. Then you push a button and get a pink transfer, which is only good on a bus. (You can stay in the metro system as long as you like). Also, you can get as many of these pink trasfers as you like (although it is against the "rules"). After a certain amount of time, these trasfers expire, and will not be accepted (I think the time is ~2-3hrs). The Metro is always 9 cars, and filles the station completely. Things may have changed since I lived there 3 years ago. In 1975 a bus ride for a student was $0.08!!! Then $0.25 in 1980, and I don't know what it is now, but it has probably doubled. Also, you could by a monthly pass, a student's was $17 in 1981. I have ridden the Metro in DC, and the subway in NYC and Boston, I found none of them to be as fast or as quiet the the one in Montreal. -- Mikel Manitius @ AT&T-IS Altamonte Springs, FL ...{ihnp4|akgua|bellcore|clyde|koura}!codas!mikel
dennis@CSNET-SH.ARPA (Dennis Rockwell) (01/13/86)
From: "J.S.Jonas" <jeffj@sfmin.uucp.arpa> Date: 8 Jan 86 17:45:58 GMT Subject: Re: subways / European rail (really turnstiles) I find it reassuring to have an electrified line near me, since it would be very hard to pull down and abandon. It should be in service for a loooong time. Welll... I'm an fan of electrics, and I really hated to see this, but Conrail pulled down the overhead leading to the Potomac Yard from the Corridor (Washington D.C. area) last year, marking the final demise of electric freight in this country. This was apparently precipitated by a storm that downed part of the catenary sometime in 1984 (?). If Amtrak goes under, who knows what will happen to the Corridor? The maintenance costs are immense, not only for the catenary, but for maintaining 120 MPH track. Of course, maybe other countries don't pull freights with electrics; the only freight I saw during a long day of trainwatching in Stockholm last year was diesel. It was the only diesel locomotive I saw, although the obviously freight-only sidings were not electrified. One passenger train was pulled by something that resembled a Little Joe, but the rest were all either pulled by Rc[12345]s (the AEM7 is based on the Rc4), or were MUs (commuter runs). There was even a DB coach in one of the trains! Actually, there was an electric freight, but it was a work train (ballast, mostly) in the subway. Anybody interested in the Stockholm subway? Dennis
nels@astrovax.UUCP (Nels Anderson) (01/15/86)
Speaking of de-electrification, what is it that make electrification
attractive or feasible in some cases? Are some passenger lines
electrified because the higher speeds make electric operation
economically preferable, or is it that diesel technology does not
permit such speeds? Why was it once desirible to haul freight with
electric locomotives, but apparently no longer is?
--
Nels Anderson Princeton University, Astrophysics
{allegra,akgua,burl,cbosgd,decvax,ihnp4,noao,princeton,vax135}!astrovax!nelshrs@homxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) (01/16/86)
While overhead costs more to maintain than none, it is instructive to compare maintenance costs of electric and diesel locomotives. As an example, the downtime of the ASEA/GM electrics on Amtrak have a downtime of about 5%, (service, maintenance and repair time) while 25-30% is the norm for diesel locomotives! Herman Silbiher ihnp4!homxb!hrs
jis1@mtgzz.UUCP (j.mukerji) (01/16/86)
> If Amtrak goes under, who knows what will happen to the Corridor? The > maintenance costs are immense, not only for the catenary, but for > maintaining 120 MPH track. The corridor will survive any such eventuality simply because of its indispensibility. That is one portion of the passenger rail system in this country for which funding will be found somehow or the other, simply because if all the passengers that are carried by Amtrak, NJTransit, SEPTA, and MDOT were dumped on the highways, even the most ardent highway fans would vote for funding the corridor, just so as to unclog their highways! Of course, operating procedures, union contracts and such will have to change to reflect the economic realities of the 80s and the 90s. > Of course, maybe other countries don't pull freights with electrics; NO, no no..., that is not true. You were probably train-watching on a non-freight or very light freight line. You see the real advantages of electric operation on high density heavy freight lines. One such line that comes to my mind is the Grand Chord section between Gaya Junction and Mughal Sarai Jn. on the Eastern Railway in India. This section is part of the 25 Kv AC 50Hz electrification that runs all the way from Calcutta to New Delhi. This is one of the heaviest traffic carrying sections in the India and perhaps the world. Standing on the platform of Dehri-on-Sone I have observed freight trains go by every 5 to 10 minutes, with an occasional passenger thrown in. All the freights are drawn by one or two WAM4 class 4000HP electrics. It is really imressive. I have seen similar electric freight operation, although not of that intensity, on DB, and SNCF. I have read about heavy electric freight operations in the USSR, and China too. Jishnu Mukerji AT&T Information Systems Labs Middletwon NJ mtgzz!jis1
dennis@CSNET-SH.ARPA (Dennis Rockwell) (01/20/86)
NO, no no..., that is not true. You were probably
train-watching on a non-freight or very light freight line.
True enough. I was at the Stockholm central passenger station. I'm quite
willing to believe that the freight was all routed other ways; I saw no
indication of a freight house or even industries served by the portion of
the railroad that I saw.
However, there was a freight spur running around part the southern section
of the city (Sodermalm) that was not electrified, so the judgement is still
out. I'm very happy to hear that other countries use electrics for freight.
Do they really use the light cars that we see as predominantly representing
"European" models over here? (little two-axle wagons, mostly) I've heard
from somewhere that North America is the only place that runs such heavy
axle loadings, which contributes to high track maintenance. However, it
means fewer cars to keep up.
Dennis