jtgorman@cs.arizona.edu (J. Taggart Gorman) (04/06/91)
I know I don't want to hear a long rambling discusion of copyrights and I'm sure most readers don't want to either, so don't answer the following question with a discussion on copyright law. If that's what I want, I'll ask my father, an attorney. The question : Risk, Monoply, others I'm sure. These are real board games, yet there are Mac version floating around in various *ware versions, I should know, since I have Risk (But who doesn't?). Why hasn't Parker Brothers and the other companies that have "stolen" games done something about this? The reason for asking : I'm going to write a Mac version of a real world game, and I'm wondering what in the dickens I will do with it. I know others will want it, and it will be a quality game. I won't say the name of the game in case I post it somewhere anonymously so no one can connect me. Ideas anyone? By the way, I did say "going to write." That is, the program is in my mind only right now. Not a single byte of code written. Not a one. So don't tell me "Put it anonymously on my FTP site." That won't help. Thanks. | J. Taggart Gorman Jr. | "I'm a no rust build up man myself." | | -Christian Slater | jtgorman@caslon.cs.arizona.edu | in 'Heathers'
2fmlcalls@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (04/06/91)
In article <1341@caslon.cs.arizona.edu>, jtgorman@cs.arizona.edu (J. Taggart Gorman) writes: > The question : > > Risk, Monoply, others I'm sure. These are real board games, yet there are > Mac version floating around in various *ware versions, I should know, since I > have Risk (But who doesn't?). Why hasn't Parker Brothers and the other companies > that have "stolen" games done something about this? Not to mention Glypha :) > The reason for asking : > > I'm going to write a Mac version of a real world game, and I'm wondering what > in the dickens I will do with it. I know others will want it, and it will be > a quality game. Personally I have never been contacted by anyone regarding Glypha. I have no idea why not. But let me make some suggestions. 1) I drastically altered the graphics of the game making no attempt to copy the art of the orgiginal game. 2) I chose the name Glypha and don't mention that other game anywhere in the game, docs, posts :), etc. 3) I've been told that worst-case-scenario the company can only tell me to remove it from where I u/l-ed it (one place) and stop supporting it. 4) There is no competing Mac version (i.e. the company in question has neither exercised their rights to the game nor licensed the rights to another company). > Thanks. > > | J. Taggart Gorman Jr. | "I'm a no rust build up man myself." > | | -Christian Slater > | jtgorman@caslon.cs.arizona.edu | in 'Heathers' Personally I would never have done Monopoly and called it Monopoly. Nor would I have done a game similar to Tetris no matter what the name (since you would be directly competing with Tetris). Maybe you can take some of these precautions and sleep a little easier. john calhoun
omh@cs.brown.edu (Owen M. Hartnett) (04/08/91)
I wrote a version of a copyrighted board game about 6 years ago. It's still on my shelf. The company knows I've written it, so I would be very much afraid should the program be released (so don't anyone ask!). Unless you have a burning desire to see the game written your way and you don't care if it never sees market, plunge ahead. However, you're far more likely to reach market with an original game rather than computerizing someone else's idea. Consider the problems: 1) You've got to convince the company that it is in it's best interest to "buy" (or license, or whatever) *their* game from you rather than just to write it themselves. and 2) if you do bring to market, even if you alter part of the game to differentiate it from their version, you stand a chance of litigation for lost profits from the original game owners. A judge could decide that your game is a "derivative work" and compell you to turn over your profits (if any) and damages (could be a lot). Someone I know has a very good version of a famous game. This game is far superior to current computerized versions of the game. However, he and his agent have been in negotiations for over 6 months with no end in sight with the copyright holder and releasing this game under a pseudonym will effectively hurt the market for it. -Owen Owen Hartnett omh@cs.brown.edu.CSNET Brown University Computer Science omh@cs.brown.edu uunet!brunix!omh "Don't wait up for me tonight because I won't be home for a month."
CAH0@bunny.gte.com (Chuck Hoffman) (04/08/91)
In article <1341@caslon.cs.arizona.edu> jtgorman@cs.arizona.edu (J. Taggart Gorman) writes: > I know I don't want to hear a long rambling discusion of copyrights and I'm > sure most readers don't want to either, so don't answer the following > question with... I had to chuckle when I read this. Someone proposing expression so free that it might infringe on a copyright, and in the same breath suggesting censorship of replies to his own posting. :) Seriously, though... Seems to me that wanting to imitate a game which someone else has developed and marketed is a pretty clear acknowledgement that you think their game is more successful, or their marketing is more successful, (or both), than what you might come up with alone. They might want to share their success with you, and they might not. But you have to make a proposal to them. After all, they've done all the work and taken all the risks so far. It's their game. Another responder suggested changing the artwork and the details of a game so much that it no longer resembled the original, except in fundamental concept. This included changing the name. I think this is legitimate if you also change a few significant ways the game actually works. Mah-jong, Canasta, and Rummy all resemble each other, and follow fundamentally similar rule sets, but we think of them as three different games. That person also noted that you wouldn't be able to derive benefits from the other game's distribution and advertising, but that's the whole idea. You wouldn't be just selling a version of the other game, you would be selling your own game, and would benefit only from your own distribution and advertising. - Chuck Hoffman, GTE Laboratories, Inc. | I'm not sure why we're here, cah0@bunny.gte.com | but I am sure that while we're Telephone (U.S.A.) 617-466-2131 | here, we're supposed to help GTE VoiceNet: 679-2131 | each other. GTE Telemail: C.HOFFMAN |
jtgorman@cs.arizona.edu (J. Taggart Gorman) (04/09/91)
In article <10932@bunny.GTE.COM> CAH0@bunny.gte.com (Chuck Hoffman) writes: >Seems to me that wanting to imitate a game which someone else has >developed and marketed is a pretty clear acknowledgement that you think >their game is more successful, or their marketing is more successful, (or >both), than what you might come up with alone. They might want to share >their success with you, and they might not. But you have to make a >proposal to them. After all, they've done all the work and taken all the >risks so far. It's their game. You got it. I totally think that this game is great. I want to take a board game (read "A game you play without a computer") and write a version of it so that all Mac users (well okay, not all Mac users, just those who own color Macs - I can't program that well yet!) can enjoy the game. I really like this game and I think that others would too. I am not saying in anyways that my game would be different (other than be computerized) or better than the real thing. >... You >wouldn't be just selling a version of the other game, you would be selling >your own game, and would benefit only from your own distribution and >advertising. This same idea was put forth in the immediately preceeding article, 3872, by omh@cs.brown.edu (Owen M. Hartnett). You assumed one thing wrong here - I never once said or even thought about the word "sell." I don't want to make any money out of this. Not a cent. Sure, that's crazy, spending all that time programming a game and not getting any (monetary) compensation, but hey, I think the Mac world could use more games, and if it's a free game, then why not. I just want to see my name mentioned in the InterNet by someone saying, "Ya, that game by Taggart Gorman is really great!" It's just an ego thing! :) I just want to write this game because I think I can and I want to write a nifty program. I've always written programs in my spare time for the heck of it that help out. How many of us have written a game aid that will roll up a fantasy character for a certain game? I've done it at least 3 times, and the last one I wrote is huge and took me about 40, probably more, hours. Any compensation for it? Not even. Wouldn't want any. I just want to write a game, because I can (well, think I can). There are a lot of other people who can't program these complicated boxes we call Macs. I just want to help them out. That's all. | J. Taggart Gorman Jr. | "I'm a no rust build up man myself." | | -Christian Slater | jtgorman@caslon.cs.arizona.edu | in 'Heathers'
lim@iris.ucdavis.edu (Lloyd Lim) (04/09/91)
In article <1991Apr6.134522.29504@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> 2fmlcalls@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: >In article <1341@caslon.cs.arizona.edu>, jtgorman@cs.arizona.edu (J. Taggart Gorman) writes: >> The question : >> >> Risk, Monoply, others I'm sure. These are real board games, yet there are >> Mac version floating around in various *ware versions, I should know, since I >> have Risk (But who doesn't?). Why hasn't Parker Brothers and the other companies >> that have "stolen" games done something about this? They did do something about it (or some of them anyway). Stratego is now a real commercial game. I think I remember the author of Risk saying here that Parker Bros. or whoever wasn't interested in a computer version and didn't want him doing anything with it anymore. Please correct me if I'm misrembering. You still see PD/shareware versions of some old stuff around because there isn't much you can do about it once it's out. >> The reason for asking : >> >> I'm going to write a Mac version of a real world game, and I'm wondering what >> in the dickens I will do with it. I know others will want it, and it will be >> a quality game. From an ethical standpoint (IMHO), it's better not to carbon copy a brand-name game. In practice, you can do anything you want to do. >Personally I have never been contacted by anyone regarding Glypha. I have no >idea why not. But let me make some suggestions. >1) I drastically altered the graphics of the game making no attempt to copy the >art of the orgiginal game. >2) I chose the name Glypha and don't mention that other game anywhere in the >game, docs, posts :), etc. >3) I've been told that worst-case-scenario the company can only tell me to >remove it from where I u/l-ed it (one place) and stop supporting it. >4) There is no competing Mac version (i.e. the company in question has neither >exercised their rights to the game nor licensed the rights to another company). Yes, john did a reasonable compromise here. It isn't an outright copy of that other game. If you really want to do this, this is a good way to go. Boardwalk doesn't need to be named Boardwalk, etc... You'll have an even stronger position if you change the rules or game machanics somewhat. People always dream up ways to improve a game. >Personally I would never have done Monopoly and called it Monopoly. Nor would >I have done a game similar to Tetris no matter what the name (since you would >be directly competing with Tetris). Maybe you can take some of these >precautions and sleep a little easier. > >john calhoun I agree. I must also say, john, that you do a pretty good job with your games. I'm not really in love with any of them but they are always interesting to look at to see what you're up to. Just the fact that you've done so many decent games is impressive - getting them out the door is always the hardest part. I am always amazed at how you manage to produce these things without knowing about the HIG or Programmer's Guide to MultiFinder though. :-) Seriously, I think you do a great job. +++ Lloyd Lim Internet: lim@iris.eecs.ucdavis.edu America Online: LimUnltd Compuserve: 72647,660 US Mail: 215 Lysle Leach Hall, U.C. Davis, Davis, CA 95616
CAH0@bunny.gte.com (Chuck Hoffman) (04/10/91)
In article <1357@caslon.cs.arizona.edu> jtgorman@cs.arizona.edu (J. Taggart Gorman) writes: > You assumed one thing wrong here - I never once said or even thought about > the word "sell." I don't want to make any money out of this. Not a cent. Aaaahh. You're right. I did make that assumption. Yes, yes. (blush!) If I were in the game manufacturer's position, I would find your enthusiasm irresistable, but, unfortunately, I'm not. I would love to hear other people's comments about this: the intention to give the computer version of the game away for free might actually hinder coming to an agreement with the game's manufacturer. They might say "great, that's more advertising for our game" but they might say "not so great, it could reduce sales of our board version." I would use a "co-opting" strategy. That is, I would try to do it as an "inside job." Get them to agree to having you do a no-cost demo for them. Show them some software you've written which would be similar, and present them with a real plan - including delivery dates - of actually doing the game "for" or "with" them. Finally, do a reasonable survey to predict the popularity of the game at various prices, or even *included* with the board game. Be careful with the survey. If you have a friend in a marketing position or school, get some help. Business people absolutely hate it when you show up with shabby market figures, or no figures at all. Besides showing them that you're a competent programmer, you also would be showing them that you've got your sh*t together, and you're not just some tinkerer who might leave them stranded down the road. It might even be helpful to propose some technology transfer (including costs) so "their" people could support it if you get sick or become disabled. And what if they aren't interested? Remember why it is that you want to do all this. Not to produce *that* game, though this attracts you the most, but to produce *some good* game and get some gratification and recognition. So at that point, I would come right out and ask them if there's some other game I could "help" with, or do they know someone else, by name, at another game manufacturing company who might be interested. What about personal identification with the game? Of course, I would try for the "vers" resource. If they wouldn't allow that, I would simply reply from time to time to messages in this games list, and identify yourself as the author. Also participate in symposia, conventions, round tables, or anything else that comes along to get your name before the public. What do other people think, especially those with business experience? P.S. Before sending your proposal, get on the phone and find the name of who(m) to send it to. Talk to that person, if possible. After sending the proposal, get on the phone and pester. Also, be prepared to wait. Businesses often don't act suddenly to a good idea. In fact, they often don't act at all. But keep calling. P.P.S. If you do end up writing as a contractor, don't forget to obtain some liability insurance which meets the liability limit in your contract. - Chuck Hoffman, GTE Laboratories, Inc. | I'm not sure why we're here, cah0@bunny.gte.com | but I am sure that while we're Telephone (U.S.A.) 617-466-2131 | here, we're supposed to help GTE VoiceNet: 679-2131 | each other. GTE Telemail: C.HOFFMAN |