jtgorman@cs.arizona.edu (J. Taggart Gorman) (05/06/91)
I have several points : As to using the altitude trick to avoiding incoming AIMs, it seems to work against all NATO medium range or longer missiles (ie, just about everything except the Sidewinder). I think it is a flaw in the game. I don't use this trick too often since it doesn't reflect reality. Phoenix AIMs are some of the most deadly weapons in the world, and have been tested against sea skimming missiles at 100ft and heavily jamming targets at 100K ft, so I don't think dropping to VLOW would cause a Phoenix to lose track. As for the idea that the quick drop in altitude causes the missiles to lose track, most AIMs can pull 10g's or more, much more than normal planes. I don't think you'll see a Backfire pull a 9g trick and live to tell. I only use this trick when I want to completely trash the NATO fleets. I usally try to play fair. As for a way to hit carriers without cheating, the best way to do it is with subs. Now we all know that USSR subs against NATO have a short lifetime in Harpoon, but they can be of use. In several NACV scenarios there are lines of USSR subs in the GUIK gap where a carrier must pass. Do not move your subs. As for their depth, set it to the middle value. I can't remember the exact name of this depth, but it's not Periscope and it's not deep, it's the choice on the far right hand side of the set speed and depth dialog box. USSR subs seem to last a little bit longer at this depth. I once had a Tico cruiser sail within 1000yds of a Victor. Sure, the sub died, but it got the Tico, and sent out the location of the carrier group, so I could call in the Backfires. The best way to get a Backfire group into firing range is the feign, as mentioned in other articles. Send out a group of targets, ie., the planes that will be Tomcat bait and the Backfires. Have them attack from oposite directions. Make sure that the target group gets detected and fired upon as far out as possible. Do not send in the Backfires until the bait has been taken to. With the majority of the F-14s on the far side of the task group, the Backfires should be able to jet in at VHIGH with afterburner and toast the carrier with minimal losses. As for the target airplanes, they're dead meat. I once used 20 Bears to do the trick. They all died very quickly but since the computer saw 20 bogies coming in fast, it scrambled everything at the Bears and let my Backfires walk in from the north without any trouble. See, that's all there is to it! | J. Taggart Gorman Jr. | "I'm a no rust build up man myself." | | -Christian Slater | jtgorman@caslon.cs.arizona.edu | in 'Heathers'
sr26+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen Alexander Racunas) (05/06/91)
The problem with Phoenix missiles is not the altitude change causing the missile to lose lock. The Phoenix is a "look down shoot down" missile that can handle targets changing altitude and targets lost in ground clutter. The problem is when the plane drops to VLOW altitude, it goes below the radar horizon of the missile... i.e. there is WATER on the direct line path from the missile to the target and the missile CANNOT SEE THE PLANE to shoot it down.
ted@cs.utexas.edu (Ted Woodward) (05/07/91)
In article <Mc99FyW00WB_M7h0lv@andrew.cmu.edu> sr26+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen Alexander Racunas) writes: >The problem with Phoenix missiles is not the altitude change causing the >missile to lose lock. The Phoenix is a "look down shoot down" missile that can >handle targets changing altitude and targets lost in ground clutter. The >problem is when the plane drops to VLOW altitude, it goes below the radar >horizon of the missile... i.e. there is WATER on the direct line path from the >missile to the target and the missile CANNOT SEE THE PLANE to shoot it down. I think you mean to say that the phoenix uses active radar homing; it doesn't need to be guided by a plane while in flight. There are three problems with your analysis: 1) AIM-54C's (the digital phoenix used in Harpoon) use inertial guidance (basically, 'go here') with mid course correction (the target moved; go here instead) with terminal active radar homing (OK, you are close enough, turn on the radar on go in). By the time the phoenix is close enough to use it's radar homing, it won't worry about LOS to the target. So even if the target initially dives below the radar horizon, you can still send the missile after it. 2) It doesn't matter when the target dives to very low; even if it is 1 nm away the phoenix will still miss. 3) If you are at high and have a standard 2er shot at you (range 75 nm), it will hit you if you stay at very low. Now, it too has inertial guidance and mid course correction, but if you are farther than 26nm from the launching platform (large ship to very low target radar horizon), it can't hit you. But it does. My conclusion is that harpoon does not check to see if you are below the radar horizon at the time of impact; instead it only checks at the time of launching. You may see the same thing with SA-N-6s launched by Russian cruisers, but it's different. Those missiles use Track Via Missile guidance, which means that each missile must be guided separately, as opposed to standard missiles only needing to be guided while terminal. Also, Soviet naval helicopters (Ka-25B's, I think) have equipment built in to relay the TVM signal. So if he has choppers up, he can guide missiles against very low targets out to their max range. Oh, the Leahy class cruisers do not conform to what I just said in the game. They are equipped with SM2ER, so should be able to have any number in the air at once, subject to launching restrictions. But they only seem to want 4 missiles in the air at once; in fact, the only ships I have seen with more missiles in the air than directors are Aegis ships, even though all SM2 armed ships keep missiles inertial except during the terminal phase, an, while SM1s are semi active radar homing throughout their entire flight, you can still point the director at one member of a group, shoot at it, shoot another missile later slaved to the same director, and switch targets after the 1st missile destroys the 1st target. -- Ted Woodward (ted@cs.utexas.edu) "Mad scientists HATE shopping for shoes!" -- Peaches
gsnow@pro-freedom.cts.com (Gary Snow) (05/11/91)
In-Reply-To: message from sr26+@andrew.cmu.edu |The problem with Phoenix missiles is not the altitude change causing |the missile to lose lock. The Phoenix is a "look down shoot down" |missile that can handle targets changing altitude and targets lost in |ground clutter. The problem is when the plane drops to VLOW altitude, |it goes below the radar horizon of the missile... i.e. there is WATER |on the direct line path from the missile to the target and the missile |CANNOT SEE THE PLANE to shoot it down. That would only be true if you had alot of range on the missile. Gary --- UUCP: ogicse!clark!pro-freedom!gsnow | Pro-Freedom: 206/253-9389 ProLine: gsnow@pro-freedom | Vancouver, Wa ARPANet: crash!pro-freedom!gsnow@nosc.mil | Apple*Van InterNet: gsnow@pro-freedom.cts.com | Vancouver Apple Users Group