es1o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Eric Mitchell Snider) (05/06/91)
> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.mac.games: 5-May-91 What's everyone's > problem i.. Barry Campbell@chatham.u (481) > Everyone seems to be boycotting them, but I haven't heard an intelligent > answer yet from ANYONE I've asked why. > Can someone on the net explain to me why Educorp is in such remarkable > disfavor? > Barry Campbell > barry%chatham@duke.cs.duke.edu / UUCP: [...] mcnc!wolves!chatham!barry > Chatham Host BBS 919 932 1142 / Chapel Hill, North Carolina This is kind of strange... I saw Educorp mentioned in a post in regard to SpaceShip Warlock and decided to post. Then I saw this message which is exactly what I wanted to talk about! Anyway, I'm the author of some shareware games for the Mac (Forty Thieves 2.1, etc.). I remember being pretty excited when Educorp sent me a letter and asked for my permission to distribute my games. In return for my agreement I was supposed to get around 5 disks from them for free. This sounded pretty great so I agreed and shipped off the signed form. After about a month I hadn't received the disks so I gave them a call. The guy I talked to said they must have gotten lost in the mail and he'd be sure to send them right off. Right. I've never gotten the disks. In fact probably the thing that bugs me most right now is that they don't bother to keep the latest versions of my programs either. That's pretty annoying. I realize I've put my games out for public distribution but I think Educorp is weaselly and I will never recommend someone buy anything from them. Have any other shareware authors had any problems with Educorp? Eric Snider es1o+@andrew.cmu.edu
2fmlcalls@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (05/06/91)
> Have any other shareware authors had > any problems with Educorp? > > Eric Snider > es1o+@andrew.cmu.edu No, no problems at all. Try a nude splash screen on your game. Seems to keep the robber-barons at bay. :) john calhoun (soft dorothy)
rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) (05/07/91)
In article <8c9=MDO00VpdEGzEoW@andrew.cmu.edu> es1o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Eric Mitchell Snider) writes: > I'm the author of some shareware games for the Mac (Forty > Thieves 2.1, etc.). I remember being pretty excited when Educorp sent > me a letter and asked for my permission to distribute my games. EduCorp asked your permission? They never asked me... (To be fair: I don't really mind not being asked, unlike many other shareware authors. Distribution is the name of the game for shareware, and EduCorp can reach people that the nets and user groups don't.) ========================================================================== Rick Holzgrafe | {sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual}!apple!rmh Software Engineer | AppleLink HOLZGRAFE1 rmh@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. | "All opinions expressed are mine, and do 20525 Mariani Ave. MS: 3-PK | not necessarily represent those of my Cupertino, CA 95014 | employer, Apple Computer Inc."
ullevig@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Ullevig Zachary A) (05/09/91)
>In fact probably the thing that bugs me most right now is that they >don't bother to keep the latest versions of my programs either. That's >pretty annoying. I realize I've put my games out for public >distribution but I think Educorp is weaselly and I will never recommend >someone buy anything from them. Have any other shareware authors had >any problems with Educorp? > >Eric Snider >es1o+@andrew.cmu.edu I've gotten two disks from Educorp (as part of MacWorld subscriptions) and found nothing valuable in them. The programs were all old versions of shareware programs that I had already recieved the much newer versions of. I don't know of anything Educorp has done to deserve boycotting them for, but I don't know of anything they have done that's worth doing business with them for either. ______________________________________________________________________________ | Zach Ullevig | "I like maxims that don't | | University of Colorado | encourage behavior modification." | | ullevig@tramp.colorado.edu | --Calvin | |____________________________|_______________________________________________|
chris@momenta.com (Chris Christensen) (05/10/91)
I have sent some of my shareware to EduCorp (unsolicited) twice and received 9-10 free disks from them without any problem. The only gripe I have had is that it takes FOREVER for things to show up in their catalog. That is the disadvantage of making what is the most discriptive catalog I have seen. Forever in this context means over a year. Chris Christensen
gtephx (Mike Pflueger) (05/10/91)
> >In fact probably the thing that bugs me most right now is that they > >don't bother to keep the latest versions of my programs either. That's > >pretty annoying. I realize I've put my games out for public > >distribution but I think Educorp is weaselly and I will never recommend > >someone buy anything from them. Have any other shareware authors had > >any problems with Educorp? > > > >Eric Snider > >es1o+@andrew.cmu.edu YES!! - They were "selling" my programs without even attempting to contact or notify me. This pisses me off BIG TIME! THEY were profiting from MY work. - One of these programs had been modified and was not even functional! Obviously they didn't even try it. I shudder to think what kind of viruses and destructive programs could get by. I contacted them in writing and subsequently spoke to the "president" (Vahe Guzel, I believe was his name). I found his ethics to be generally lacking. When I pointed out that one of my programs they were distributing had been modified and was not even functional, he said to look at that as an opportunity - people would be more encouraged to send in the shareware fee to get a working version! I informed him that I have higher standards than that, I don't believe in bait-and-switch type tactics. He seemed surprised. I asked how do they protect customers from viruses and destructive programs, and he said they check everything they distribute. I asked how my program got distributed then, since the copy they had was non-functional. He didn't know how it "slipped by." I also pressed him on the fact that not only are they profiting from MY work without my permission AND WITHOUT EVEN THE COURTESY TO NOTIFY ME (I noticed my programs in one of their catalogs in Mac<World|User>). He said that they distribute too many programs to contact every author. HA! Amazingly, they DO manage to copy, catalog, distribute, AND profit from them all. Oh yeah, and supposedly check each one for viruses too. After several calls and letters from him, a total about an hours worth of discussing what I believe to be unethical practices, he finally offered me my choice of something like four of their disks as compensation. But he was missing my point. He never did concede that they were using any questionable practices or would change any of their policies. So, I demanded that they remove my programs from distribution. It took me several attempts and threats of litigation to get them to do this. I also had people who had purchased this modified, non-functioning program from Educorp virtually demanding support because they had paid for the program. While Educorp DOES now put notices in their catalogs distinguishing Shareware from Freeware and suggesting people send the shareware fee in, it was obvious that people felt that they HAD paid and that I was somehow also compensated. I would inform them of the situation and suggested that they contact Educorp immediately to complain about being ripped off for non-functional programs and the potential for destructive programs. As such, I've not done any more shareware programming the last few years, I've been keeping things to myself. I am about to release a new program though, and have much stronger notices in the program that distribution for profit is prohibited except with my written permission. I would recommend that EVERYONE stay away from places like Educorp! Obviously they want to turn a cheap buck and don't care who they screw doing it. Obviously this subject hit a nerve :-( Mike -- Mike Pflueger @ AG Communication Systems (formerly GTE Comm. Sys.), Phoenix, AZ UUCP: {...!ames!ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!hrc | att}!gtephx!pfluegerm Work: 602-582-7049 FAX: 602-582-7624 Home: 602-439-1978 Packet: WD8KPZ @ KB7TV.AZ.USA.NA Internet: gtephx!pfluegerm@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
Bob.Nordling@f13.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Nordling) (05/18/91)
>In fact probably the thing that bugs me most right now is that >they >don't bother to keep the latest versions of my programs either. >That's >pretty annoying. I realize I've put my games out for public >distribution but I think Educorp is weaselly and I will never >recommend >someone buy anything from them. Have any other shareware >authors had >any problems with Educorp? > >Eric Snider >es1o+@andrew.cmu.edu Eric (and any other shareware author): I too am annoyed when looking at shareware catalogs and collections of software on CDs to see that the producers have often mispelled the name of programs, included the program several times under different names (on CDs), and not bothered to procure the latest versions of the software. Eric, thanks for sending us the latest version of Forty Theives. Any time you or any other shareware authors would like to have your software distributed on America Online, BIX, CompuServe, Fidonet, GEnie, or Usenet (Sumex), mail me a copy and I will see that it is distributed on these networks as well as in the UK, and throughout Europe as soon as our Mac software distribution is in place there. I will also mail you back your diskette loaded with some recent shareware programs. We will also publish in our bi-monthly publication Home & School Mac a comprehensive listing of VALID shareware author addresses in our "Shareware Authors Address Book". We wrote several hundred authors at least twice to confirm their addresses and to offer our services to them. We are catalog all the shareware entertainment/education programs (over 1000 programs), reviewing some of them, doing compatibility tests on several CPUs, trying to get valid addresses of the authors (so people can register them), offering discounts ($3.00 off) for people who wish to join our user group if they register a shareware program (with a registration fee of $3.00 or more), and in July will have a GAMER Project BBS open to our members as well as to all shareware authors and commercial developer representatives. To have your shareware programs distributed, mail it/them to: GAMER Project, 15 Everglades St., Kenner, LA 70065 For information about joining the GAMER Project, send a note to the same address. Shareware authors can have their programs distributed free of charge, have "honorary" access (full access) to the BBS once it comes online, and receive a 50% discount if they wish to join to receive our bi-monthly publication along with the disk of new shareware (in Compactor format so we can fit more on). Membership is $15.00/year, $7.50 for shareware authors). --- * Origin: New Orleans MUG BBS (Line 3) * RA/D'Bridge * PEP/V.32 (1:396/13)
Bob.Nordling@f13.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Nordling) (05/20/91)
* In a message originally to All, Mike Pflueger said: >I also pressed him on the fact that not only are they profiting >from MY >work without my permission AND WITHOUT EVEN THE COURTESY TO >NOTIFY ME >(I noticed my programs in one of their catalogs in >Mac<World|User>). He >said that they distribute too many programs to contact every >author. HA! Mike. Educorp is a business. They profit a great deal off of selling shareware without the minimal courtesies of insuring that the programs work, that they are the latest versions available, and that the author is aware that they are selling it. I don't doubt they have the resources to "at least try" to contact every author. I know in working with the GAMER Project, we tried to contact every author of Mac entertainment (shareware) software. Out of 350 authors who were written, 1/3 of the authors responded, 1/3 of the letters were returned as having invalid addresses (forwarding order expired, forward order not established), and 1/3 of the letters were either not returned by the authors or the US Postal System. At the GAMER Project, we only focus on entertainment/educational Mac shareware, but we have a "Shareware Authors Address Book" so those who at least wish to register programs have a VALID address to do so. From my statistics, fully 2/3 of the authors which listed addresses in their programs/documentation are currently incommunicado. I am somewhat puzzled why everyone focuses on Educorp as the culprit when the commercial online services make no effort to contact authors nor to compensate them based on number of times/amount of time involved in downloading. Although these companies don't depend like Educorp for their entire livelihood on shareware, most likely some of the electronic services would either would not have come about or would have folded with out the boost of big bucks from time expended on downloads. At least the electronic services check the programs for viruses and generally keep the latest versions online. Then there are many user groups which shareware authors rightly don't besmirch generating revenues to support their non-profit groups through the modest sales of pd/shareware disks. What would be great is if there was a model online service which gave a percentage of revenues generated by the downloads to the author of that program -- and also protected the caller from wasting money on downloading buggy/crummy programs by reviewing each program and designating a section of premium programs and "at own risk" programs. Fred Showker, with the MUG News Service, distributes shareware to raise money for the non-profit Johnny Appleseed Awards (including grants to community service minded Mac enthusiasts)...from what I hear, a percentage of the revenues go back to the authors, but as usual, the big companies making the big buck put their money in advertisement, spending less on promoting the prosperity of shareware authors, whereas the people who try to do the "right" thing struggle in obscurity. And I have heard from many shareware authors which have spent hundreds/thousands of hours on their hobby/first experience with the business world, only to not receive a single registration or even postcard....there are lots of interesting talented people in the Mac world who dwell in obsurity ... --- * Origin: New Orleans Mac User Group BBS (1:396/13)
Bob.Nordling@f13.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Nordling) (05/20/91)
I would recommend that EVERYONE stay away from places like Educorp! Obviously they want to turn a cheap buck and don't care who they screw doing it. Obviously this subject hit a nerve :-( Mike -- Mike Pflueger @ AG Communication Systems (formerly GTE Comm. Sys.), Phoenix, Mike, I understand your frustration, however, if you stay away from Educorp, why not exhort us to stay away from online services? (and I say this with "fear and trembling" since I work on two major online services...being compensated with free accounts). We are left with user groups which do not contact shareware authors (since they invest so much time in volunteer work that they have little left to do it if they wished), but which normally provide at least support for shareware products in formal and informal ways and check the programs for viruses before distribution. We feel good about user groups since they are "freeware consultants" for Apple ...I know some people who would be rich if they were paid $1 for each call they got from non-members who were referred to them for product support by Apple Computer and local dealers. The problem is that a viable alternative to Educorp would entail cooperation of the shareware authors and the "do the right thing" business, a willingness for an entity to fight Educorp if they trampled on the rights of shareware authors, and notices within shareware that was unambiguous about distribution. Without these 3 things, Educorp (and similar smaller companies) will be the standard way of doing business. --- * Origin: New Orleans MUG BBS (Line 3) * RA/D'Bridge * PEP/V.32 (1:396/13)