6600patb@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Pat Breitenbach) (09/22/90)
Even with all the discussion concerning TrueType and PostScript, I'm still a bit in the dark concerning several aspects. I understand (somewhat) the topics concerning fonts, but doesn't PostScript do a whole lot more than just fonts? Like graphics, to begin with? It seemes to me that MacDraw, Illus., FreeHand, etc implemented PostScript for printing, displaying, or both. What would graphics be like without PostScript? Does QuickDraw do a good enough job at laserprinting non-font graphics? Or does MicroSoft's TrueImage take care of this? Pardon my lack of a linear train of thought. This just sort of hit me. Any response would be appreciated. Thanks -Patrick Internet: 6600patb@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (09/22/90)
Postscript has built-in support for device-independent rotation of all
the graphics primitives. I find it very useful to put labels on
rotated lines. The Mac does not have primitives to do this, and my
understanding is that system 7.0 will not include support for
rotation. This is a major drawback, because
(1) Many applications (such as Canvas) try to kluge rotation and
screw it up;
(2) There is no standard representation of rotated text, hence,
rotated text cannot be stored on the clipboard.
(3) Rotated text is important for labeling edges in graph-theory
graphs, and axes (90 degrees) in data graphs.
In my opinion, this is the biggest failing in system 7.0; it's a good
reason to go out an put down $3340 on a new 15MIPS NeXT machine! 8-)
Don W. Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois
1304 W. Springfield, Urbana, Ill 61801
ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!uiucdcs!gilliesminich@d.cs.okstate.edu (Robert Minich) (09/23/90)
by gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu: | Postscript has built-in support for device-independent rotation of all | the graphics primitives. I find it very useful to put labels on | rotated lines. The Mac does not have primitives to do this, and my | understanding is that system 7.0 will not include support for | rotation. [...] | In my opinion, this is the biggest failing in system 7.0 I'm sure Apple will be quite pleased to know it's doing such a wonderful job that this is your biggest concern. -- |_ /| | Robert Minich | |\'o.O' | Oklahoma State University| A fanatic is one who sticks to |=(___)= | minich@d.cs.okstate.edu | his guns -- whether they are | U | - Ackphtth | loaded or not.
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (09/24/90)
> I'm sure Apple will be quite pleased to know it's doing such a wonderful > job that this is your biggest concern. To each his own. It is a medium-sized concern of mine (virtual memory is a big concern). I'm still very satisfied with my 5Mb Mac II and feel no need to upgrade or switch to another computer. But -- (1) One of the big reasons for the mac's success is its quickdraw picture language (2) The only enhancement to Quickdraw since the Mac Plus has been support for color. This means no built-in spline support, no support for rotation, no support for sophisticated image processing of grey-scale data (such as dithering or floyding). (3) I have heard Apple is trying to push Quickdraw as a substitute for Postscript. Well, "I know Postscript. Postscript is a a friend of mine. Quickdraw, you're no Postscript!" Apple should live up to its responsibility to address the areas where Quickdraw falls way short of postscript. About a year ago I mentioned quickdraw object rotation as something that system 7.0 should support, and someone (from Apple I believe) agreed that it was important, but unfortunately, would not be included in system 7.0. Don W. Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois 1304 W. Springfield, Urbana, Ill 61801 ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!uiucdcs!gillies
borton@garnet.berkeley.edu (Chris "Johann" Borton) (09/26/90)
In article <70500039@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > (2) The only enhancement to Quickdraw since the Mac Plus has been > support for color. This means no built-in spline support, no > support for rotation, no support for sophisticated image > processing of grey-scale data (such as dithering or floyding). 32-bit QuickDraw includes dithering and does have some support for image processing; I use it for JPEG color image compression. The biggest problem I see for QD vs. PS is QD's lack of anything but integers, making rounding a real problem like in zooming, for example. -cbb
ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) (10/06/90)
In article <70500038@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > > (1) Many applications (such as Canvas) try to kluge rotation and > screw it up; > (2) There is no standard representation of rotated text, hence, > rotated text cannot be stored on the clipboard. > (3) Rotated text is important for labeling edges in graph-theory > graphs, and axes (90 degrees) in data graphs. >In my opinion, this is the biggest failing in system 7.0; it's a good >reason to go out an put down $3340 on a new 15MIPS NeXT machine! 8-) >Don W. Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois Then why don't you run out and get your Next box and spare the world your perpetual flaming of the Mac and how "you" think it should be done. ----- -- Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie. Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything) UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM
norman@d.cs.okstate.edu (Norman Graham) (10/06/90)
In article <70500038@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > [ Don complains that system 7.0 doesn't support rotated text. ] Then, in article <2868@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM>, by ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger): > Then why don't you run out and get your Next box and spare > the world your perpetual flaming of the Mac and how "you" > think it should be done. Why don't you join the real world Mr. Goodger? No system is above criticism; the Mac falls short in many areas. Mr. Gillies wants a perfectly reasonable feature--a standard mechanism and data format for rotated text. This is certainly possible. The only reason we won't see this in system 7.0 is that the quickdraw group is not far enough along yet. Toolbox support for text along a path will be part of future systems. [Of course, the people who know when this feature is scheduled to appear can't tell the world.] -- Norman Graham <norman@a.cs.okstate.edu> {cbosgd,rutgers}!okstate!norman The opinions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect the views of the state of Oklahoma, Oklahoma State University, OSU's Department of Computer Science, or of the writer himself.
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (10/06/90)
Actually, the quickdraw group could announce a standard for rotated text before they've implemented it. This would confer the following benefit: rotated text could be exchanged between all applications that already support it. I believe that, while quickdraw comments can contain rotated text, the method of specifying rotation and reading the rotation comments has not yet been specified. How much would this cost apple R & D ? Not much, in my opinion.
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (10/09/90)
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >already support it. I believe that, while quickdraw comments can >contain rotated text, the method of specifying rotation and reading >the rotation comments has not yet been specified. Tech Note 91 (dated 3/1/88) specifies some picture comments for rotated text and graphics. These comments are directly supported in the LaserWriter driver and could be interpreted by programs for drawing on the screen. -- Larry Rosenstein, Object Specialist Apple Computer, Inc. 20525 Mariani Ave, MS 3-PK Cupertino, CA 95014 AppleLink:Rosenstein1 domain:lsr@Apple.COM UUCP:{sun,voder,nsc,decwrl}!apple!lsr
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (10/09/90)
In article <1990Oct6.023413.11743@d.cs.okstate.edu>, norman@d.cs.okstate.edu (Norman Graham) writes... >In article <70500038@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >> [ Don complains that system 7.0 doesn't support rotated text. ] > >Then, in article <2868@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM>, by ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger): >> Then why don't you run out and get your Next box and spare >> the world your perpetual flaming of the Mac and how "you" >> think it should be done. > >Why don't you join the real world Mr. Goodger? No system is above >criticism; the Mac falls short in many areas. Indeed true. And dissent should always be welcomed. But perhaps Goodger's post can be better understood in light of the fact that Gillies routinely flames the Mac. In fact if I see a post by Gillies I bet myself ahead of time that it's going to be a flame against the Mac. And usually it is. Continuous criticism does get old after a while. Real old. Perhaps Goodger had this in mind. Perhaps not. Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
norman@d.cs.okstate.edu (Norman Graham) (10/09/90)
From article <1990Oct8.190909.23296@midway.uchicago.edu>, by gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu: > In article <1990Oct6.023413.11743@d.cs.okstate.edu>, norman@d.cs.okstate.edu (Norman Graham) writes... >>Why don't you join the real world Mr. Goodger? No system is above >>criticism; the Mac falls short in many areas. > > Indeed true. And dissent should always be welcomed. > > But perhaps Goodger's post can be better understood in light of the fact that > Gillies routinely flames the Mac. In fact if I see a post by Gillies I bet > myself ahead of time that it's going to be a flame against the Mac. And > usually it is. Continuous criticism does get old after a while. Real old. > > Perhaps Goodger had this in mind. Perhaps not. Right. In that case, I hope Mr. Goodger will excuse the heat I tossed his way. I am sympathetic; continuous flames wear on me as well (Hi Tim :-). Norm -- Norman Graham <norman@a.cs.okstate.edu> {cbosgd,rutgers}!okstate!norman The opinions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect the views of the state of Oklahoma, Oklahoma State University, OSU's Department of Computer Science, or of the writer himself.
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (10/09/90)
> Tech Note 91 (dated 3/1/88) specifies some picture comments for rotated text > and graphics. These comments are directly supported in the LaserWriter > driver and could be interpreted by programs for drawing on the screen. I just checked MacDraw II and Canvas 2.0 -- much to my chagrin, rotated text seems to be transferred easily between the programs using picture comments. On the other hand, Canvas 2.0 does screw up rotation. Once an item is rotated, it is represented on the screen by a bitmap. Subsequent rotations just spin the bitmap, making the item illegible upon the second rotation. "Zoom In" does not enhance the legibility of a rotated item. I could also swear that there are cases in Canvas 2.0 when a rotated item was permanently converted into a bitmap without my consent, but I cannot reproduce this problem. I guess it takes more than just an interchange format to get developers to implement rotation correctly. Or Maybe Canvas is just a kluge -- I'm beginning to think (more and more) that this is the actual answer.
rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Robert K Shull) (10/09/90)
In article <70500050@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >> Tech Note 91 (dated 3/1/88) specifies some picture comments for rotated text >> and graphics. These comments are directly supported in the LaserWriter >> driver and could be interpreted by programs for drawing on the screen. > >I just checked MacDraw II and Canvas 2.0 -- much to my chagrin, >rotated text seems to be transferred easily between the programs using >picture comments. > >On the other hand, Canvas 2.0 does screw up rotation. Once an item is >rotated, it is represented on the screen by a bitmap. Subsequent The rotated text also print correctly in Canvas. I'd guess that the text is stored internally in picture comment form, but the bitmap is never recalculated after the rotation is done. I've also seen the conversion of a text object to bitmap form semi-randomly in Canvas 2.0. Never seen it (yet) in 2.1. Robert -- Robert K. Shull rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu chinet!uokmax!rob
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (10/09/90)
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >On the other hand, Canvas 2.0 does screw up rotation. Once an item is >rotated, it is represented on the screen by a bitmap. Subsequent Most likely Canvas doesn't interpret the rotation picture comments at all. The proper way to represent rotated text in a picture is to include a bitmap of the rotated text the appropriate comments and the actual text. Applications that ignore the comments would still image the bitmap, while appliations that handle the comments would ignore the bitmap and extract the text/rotation angle. -- Larry Rosenstein, Object Specialist Apple Computer, Inc. 20525 Mariani Ave, MS 3-PK Cupertino, CA 95014 AppleLink:Rosenstein1 domain:lsr@Apple.COM UUCP:{sun,voder,nsc,decwrl}!apple!lsr
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (10/10/90)
From article <1990Oct8.190909.23296@midway.uchicago.edu>, by gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu: > But perhaps Goodger's post can be better understood in light of the fact that > Gillies routinely flames the Mac. In fact if I see a post by Gillies I bet > myself ahead of time that it's going to be a flame against the Mac. /* Written 1:19 pm Sep 26, 1990 by gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu in m.cs.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.mac.system */ Be patient, be patient. You can always sell your macintosh and buy a PC to run OS/2 *snicker*. Tuning could make the difference between having a system 7.0 that's as piggy as OS/2, and a system 7.0 that's correct simple and fast. When was the last time any company added virtual memory support to a computer as an afterthought? /* End of text from m.cs.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.mac.system */ I believe the above statement is praise, in response to someone else's flame. I admit to commenting on (1) rotation of objects in quickdraw, (2) apple's allocation of R&D money to business enhancements / hardware, (3) the [misreported] design decisions of the 3 new macs, and (4) the fact that [under university discounts] apple charges only $150 for a 20Mb drive in an SE, and during its lifetime made a $500 increase to the price of a bare Mac II system unit (i.e. Apple has artificially jacked-up the price of "bare boxes", to take business from 3rd-party companies). Are these vacuous issues? I hope that we can work towards the day when mankind judges "flames" not by their frequency of occurence, but the content of their communication. Don W. Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois 1304 W. Springfield, Urbana, Ill 61801 ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!uiucdcs!gillies
wnn@ornl.gov (Wolfgang N. Naegeli) (10/10/90)
In article <70500050@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > On the other hand, Canvas 2.0 does screw up rotation. Once an item is > rotated, it is represented on the screen by a bitmap. Subsequent > rotations just spin the bitmap, making the item illegible upon the > second rotation. "Zoom In" does not enhance the legibility of a > rotated item. Don't flame outdated versions! Canvas 2.1 lets you rotate text freely several times, and it is always fairly legible. Of course, it has to be represented on the screen by a bitmap. There is no way around that. (Why do you think the NeXT displays use higher dpi? They have Display PostScript, but when it comes to drawing on the screen it must still be represented as a bit map.) Canvas 2.1, recomputes the bitmap from the original, each time you rotate it. You can edit rotated text by clicking in it with the text insertion tool. This causes the text to quickly snap back to a horizontal position. After you finish editing and deselect it, it snaps back to its previous rotation. Yes, when you zoom in, it still simply blows up the rotated bitmap. But this is probably a good feature since it would take too long to recompute all the bitmaps if you have several rotated text blocks in the drawing. You can force recomputation by clicking in each of the rotated text blocks with the text insertion tool. When you zoom out after having done this, the rotated characters will appear too heavy at the smaller scale until you select and deselect them again with the text tool. When applying special effects, Canvas 2.1 always works on copies of the original. Thus you can select "Revert to original" after having applied several special efects only to realize that you better start all over again. Not that this is on a per-object basis, not a file reversion, and that you can apply it even after having worked on or added other objects in the meantime. It would be nice if there were a Preferences option to have Canvas automatically recompute bitmaps after zooming. Perhaps the next version will have that. At any rate, Canvas is, IMHO, the best all-around drawing and painting package, and it certainly beats its competition in price performance. Wolfgang N. Naegeli Internet: wnn@ornl.gov Bitnet: wnn@ornlstc Phone: 615-574-6143 Fax: 615-574-6141 QuickMail (QM-QM): Wolfgang Naegeli @ 615-574-4510 Snail: Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Oak Ridge, TN 37831-6206
ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) (10/16/90)
In article <1990Oct9.045905.12689@d.cs.okstate.edu> norman@d.cs.okstate.edu (Norman Graham) writes: >From article <1990Oct8.190909.23296@midway.uchicago.edu>, by gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu: >>>Why don't you join the real world Mr. Goodger? No system is above >>>criticism; the Mac falls short in many areas. >> Indeed true. And dissent should always be welcomed. >> But perhaps Goodger's post can be better understood in light of the fact that >> Gillies routinely flames the Mac. In fact if I see a post by Gillies I bet >> myself ahead of time that it's going to be a flame against the Mac. And >> usually it is. Continuous criticism does get old after a while. Real old. >> Perhaps Goodger had this in mind. Perhaps not. >Right. In that case, I hope Mr. Goodger will excuse the heat I tossed >his way. I am sympathetic; continuous flames wear on me as well (Hi Tim :-). > >Norm Tim is correct, I am bored of Mr. Gillies perpetual flaming of the Mac. If he dislikes it so much, why does he not move to some other platform that better suits his needs. Though it could perhaps be debated whether such a platform exists... --- -- Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie. Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything) UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (10/16/90)
> Tim is correct, I am bored of Mr. Gillies perpetual flaming > of the Mac. If he dislikes it so much, why does he not move > to some other platform that better suits his needs. Though it > could perhaps be debated whether such a platform exists... > Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 > 3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie. > Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything) > UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM Christ, people can't take a little sarcasm about selling my Mac II and buying a NeXT. I realize that all macintosh purchasers have invested lots of money (a whole hell of a lot, actually) in their macintoshes (I myself dropped 5200), and that they are very proud of their machine and buying decision. After spending all my money on the macintosh, I've made myself a poor college student -- I'm basically stuck with whatever I have. One of the "features" of a macintosh is that, once you've bought it, you can't afford another computer for several years. I find that the macintosh does not work well for technical documentation. No draw program (that I know of) supports subscripts in figure labels; the basic picture architecture could do a better job supporting rotation, and I spend 90% of my bug-fixing time getting our non-laserwriters to print the postscript files it generates. Complex Canvas pictures crash our printer, and the boxes of MacDraw II pictures often print misaligned when they are pasted into MS-Word. I've been forced to re-draw my conference paper pictures AT LEAST TWICE, sometimes as much as 4 times, to get a good result. Scaling a picture almost never works (because of the lack of support for subscripts). Mr Goodger, I "give something back", e.g. provide the net with information on how to interface the mac to non-apple laserprinters, and how to patch the "Laserwriter" Icon to do unusual things. Do you "give something back", mr. Goodger? I didn't think so. If you want to criticize my pleas for improvement in the architecture, be my guest. I'll just add your name to my kill file. Don W. Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois 1304 W. Springfield, Urbana, Ill 61801 ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!uiucdcs!gillies