252u3129@fergvax.unl.edu (Mike Gleason) (10/31/90)
In article <10123@ur-cc.UUCP> esht_cif@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Eran) writes: >In the same MacWeek I read that the new classic rom has some extra >features like a rom disk. Is it possible to upgrade an se/30 >to the new 512K rom? Is there anyone out there besides me that thinks that this is just another lie cooked up by MacTheKnife? For one, how could they fit an entire, decent, bootable system file in only 357k? The picture also shows 9 alleged files, I find it hard to believe that they could squeeze a System, Finder, and the other system folder additions in that small of space. Okay, I guess they could be stored in a compressed format, but still. Two, surely the new 512k ROMs have something else besides the old 128k ROM in them. 512k - the 357k for the purported ROM disk leaves only 155k. A better idea would be for apple to supply some sort of SIMM slot for a ROM disk. Then, *when* they find bugs in the System software, they could just supply a new ROM SIMM (for a hefty fee of course). *** *** mike gleason <252u3129@fergvax.unl.edu> *** "It's Hammer time... NOT!" -- Anthrax *** .signature randomizer 1.0 * write for free c source
sylveste@iastate.edu (Sylvester Timothy J) (11/01/90)
The ROM Boot Disk actually exists and it works. I saw it on a Mac Classic this morning. To boot off of the ROM disk, start the MAC while holding down the Command-Option-X-O keys. The ROM disk has version 6.0.3 of the system. All nine files mentioned in Mac the Knife are there.
borton@garnet.berkeley.edu (Chris "Johann" Borton) (11/01/90)
In article <1990Oct31.235912.18133@news.iastate.edu> sylveste@iastate.edu (Tim Sylvester) writes: >The ROM Boot Disk actually exists and it works. I saw it on a Mac Classic this >morning. To boot off of the ROM disk, start the MAC while holding down the >Command-Option-X-O keys. The ROM disk has version 6.0.3 of the system. >All nine files mentioned in Mac the Knife are there. Hmm, this is interesting. I was at Apple today in their Compatibility Lab and tried this with the Classic there: yeah! But it came up with System 6.0.2, "Finder 6.1x" and the rest of bare minimum Appleshare configuration. But, the NIFTY part was that I could make it the startup drive! Yes! Thereafter it booted from ROM when turned on, not just with the key-combo. If this sticks it'll be a cool, undocumented, unsupported feature of the Classic, very useful to 1M/1 floppy setups. That is, if that system works well, which is obviously the question since Apple seems to have decided that it's not supportable (can't blame them myself). Note: the ROM disk icon is a floppy icon with a chip on top of it. -cbb Disclaimer: my eyes, my opinions, my typing fingers. All mine. Chris Borton -*- borton@garnet.berkeley.edu -*- Ph.D. student, UC Berkeley School of Education, researching technology to teach geography/cultural literacy
bruner@sp15.csrd.uiuc.edu (John Bruner) (11/02/90)
Chris Borton writes about the hidden ROM disc in the Classic, and says > If this sticks it'll be a cool, undocumented, unsupported feature of the > Classic, very useful to 1M/1 floppy setups. That is, if that system works > well, which is obviously the question since Apple seems to have decided that > it's not supportable (can't blame them myself). I wonder if this might be the real reason for the ROM SIMM sockets in the newer machines. Perhaps Apple intends/intended to come out with ROM discs to plug into those sockets, thereby allowing the machines to run discless via AppleShare. It would still be possible, even if the ROM disc in the Classic turns out to be wasted space. -- John Bruner Center for Supercomputing R&D, University of Illinois bruner@csrd.uiuc.edu (217) 244-4476
phil@and.cs.liv.ac.uk (Phil Jimmieson) (11/02/90)
In article <1990Oct31.235912.18133@news.iastate.edu>, sylveste@iastate.edu (Sylvester Timothy J) writes: > The ROM Boot Disk actually exists and it works. I saw it on a Mac Classic this > morning. To boot off of the ROM disk, start the MAC while holding down the > Command-Option-X-O keys. The ROM disk has version 6.0.3 of the system. > All nine files mentioned in Mac the Knife are there. <gasp!!> I just tried it on a Classic that I'm looking after for a colleague - and it *does* work. You can set the startup disk to be the ROM system disk - and then after that it will start with that, and your hard disk or floppy disk isn't used for the system disk. (you need to use the magic invocation given above to get the ROM system disk to appear to begin with though). Wow! I often heard it suggested (I *even* suggested it myself) that Apple should put a system on ROM to give a "diskless" machine - it appears to have been done, but without anyone telling us!! Phil Jimmieson, *************************************************** Computer Science Dept., * JANET : phil@uk.ac.liv.cs.and * Liverpool University, * INTERNET : phil@and.cs.liv.ac.uk * PO Box 147 *************************************************** Liverpool L69 3BX "This message contains wit, sophistication, class, (UK) 051-794-3689 style, and 3 other words I don't understand as well..."
iand@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (Ian Robert DOBSON) (11/05/90)
Has anybody out there started using the Classic ROM disk as the active system
folder? IMHO, it all sounds fairly useless - if the system folder is in ROM,
you wouldn't be able to add INIT's, fonts, DA's, etc. etc. etc. Would anybody
really tolerate this for more than five minutes? Or is there a way around
it that I am overlooking?
How about a ROM disk with hooks to the hard disk, so you can add all those
extras that we all need and keep the main System on ROM?
Ian R. Dobson
Department of Electrical Engineering
University of Melbourne
iand@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au
Disclaimer: All opinions are my own and in no way represent the viewpoint
of the University.philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (11/05/90)
In article <5932@munnari.oz.au>, iand@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU (Ian Robert DOBSON) writes: |> |> Has anybody out there started using the Classic ROM disk as the active system |> folder? IMHO, it all sounds fairly useless - if the system folder is in ROM, |> you wouldn't be able to add INIT's, fonts, DA's, etc. etc. etc. Would anybody |> really tolerate this for more than five minutes? Or is there a way around |> it that I am overlooking? |> |> How about a ROM disk with hooks to the hard disk, so you can add all those |> extras that we all need and keep the main System on ROM? |> Some good points here. The whole thing only makes sense if you want a minimal system capable of switching to a system on a server after booting. Of course, System 7 is allegedly going to make it easier to handle things like fonts without requiring installation in the System file, but the system stuff in the ROM disk isn't version 7.0. Next question: is there some way of configuring a Classic so it will boot off its ROM disk, look for a server, present a signon dialog and switch to the System it finds on the server? -- Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
minich@d.cs.okstate.edu (Robert Minich) (11/15/90)
by philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick): | My experience of running off a server (both MacServe and later AppleShare) | is you absolutely have to have plenty of RAM and big RAM caches to get | respectable performance. The caches need to be on the user machines; | more RAM on the server doesn't help nearly as much. The exact size of | cache needed depends on your application. If you have things carefully | set up, the performance should come close to local diskette (I haven't | tried ethernet; if you can afford this, you can probably also afford | local hard disks). I don't know how your MacJanet machines are | configured. I suggest you look in the Control Panel and see if you can | bump the RAM cache up a bit. | -- | Philip Machanick | philip@pescadero.stanford.edu I thought AppleShare volumes weren't cached!?!? This could conceivably cause big problems with shared files. Regardless, trying to run a bunch of Macs with a System located across LocalTalk is probably Not A Good Idea. Unless Apple switches to a write-through cache and implements a protocol to invalidate cache entries, I doubt upping the Control Panel's cache size will be a big win except for floppies. Last night OSU had all the Mac models (including LC) and I cornered the Apple person with a Classic booted from ROM and asked "Why doesn't Apple mention this to anyone?" Something about AppleShare 3.0 and not talking about unannounced products. :-) Anyway, I'm more curious what the other new machines have tucked away. He said they all had the ability to boot off a server (whether boot = boot off ROM and mount a server, he couldn't say). What happens on ethernet? What happens with System 7? I feel making Macs dependent on a server or, worse yet, floppies does a lot to make Macs look slow and useless. Sys 7 sure as heck is not floppy-usable so spend those extra pennies to get even the most meager of hard disks. If you can afford it (and have enough to justify it), put in ethernet. It's a heckuva lot faster and can easily handle the demands of a bunch of AppleShare clients. While I'm at it... there was a IIfx with the 8.24GC. They gave a demo with a little program (called Diatom, me thinks) which drew spirograph-like patterns made up of straight lines. What is the bottleneck here? Without acceleration, the IIfx appeared to be running about the same speed as the IIsi. Is the IIfx tripping over the NuBus? Of course, with acceleration, things were a bit more peppy. :-) -- |_ /| | Robert Minich | |\'o.O' | Oklahoma State University| A fanatic is one who sticks to |=(___)= | minich@d.cs.okstate.edu | his guns -- whether they are | U | - Ackphtth | loaded or not.
kenh@hscfsas1.harvard.edu (Ken Hancock) (11/21/90)
In article <1990Oct30.231717.29002@hoss.unl.edu> 252u3129@fergvax.unl.edu (Mike Gleason) writes: >In article <10123@ur-cc.UUCP> esht_cif@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Eran) writes: >>In the same MacWeek I read that the new classic rom has some extra >>features like a rom disk. Is it possible to upgrade an se/30 >>to the new 512K rom? > >Is there anyone out there besides me that thinks that this is just another >lie cooked up by MacTheKnife? For one, how could they fit an entire, decent, >bootable system file in only 357k? The picture also shows 9 alleged files, >I find it hard to believe that they could squeeze a System, Finder, and the >other system folder additions in that small of space. First of all, the rumors in MacWeek usually ring true. Second, I doubt they ever intentionally lie -- their track record is too good. Third, just cause you find it hard to believe, doesn't mean it aint true. Yes, everything you've read is true regarding the ROM disk. You can boot from it by holding down CMD-OPTION-X-O. You can then set it as startup. It's definitely a butchered system, all unneeded resources have been removed. For future reference, I'd check out the facts yourself before you go accusing people of lying. If you want fallacious rumors, read MacUser or MacWorld. Ken -- Ken Hancock | INTERNET: kenh@hscfsas1.harvard.edu Isle Systems | Disclaimer: My opinions are mine, Macintosh Consulting | your opinions are yours. Simple, isn't it?
pascal@CAM.ORG (Pascal Gosselin) (11/22/90)
252u3129@fergvax.unl.edu (Mike Gleason) writes: >In article <10123@ur-cc.UUCP> esht_cif@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Eran) writes: >>In the same MacWeek I read that the new classic rom has some extra >>features like a rom disk. Is it possible to upgrade an se/30 >>to the new 512K rom? >Is there anyone out there besides me that thinks that this is just another >lie cooked up by MacTheKnife? For one, how could they fit an entire, decent, >bootable system file in only 357k? The picture also shows 9 alleged files, >I find it hard to believe that they could squeeze a System, Finder, and the >other system folder additions in that small of space. Okay, I guess they could >be stored in a compressed format, but still. Two, surely the new 512k ROMs >have something else besides the old 128k ROM in them. 512k - the 357k for the >purported ROM disk leaves only 155k. A better idea would be for apple to supply >some sort of SIMM slot for a ROM disk. Then, *when* they find bugs in the >System software, they could just supply a new ROM SIMM (for a hefty fee of >course). > *** > *** mike gleason <252u3129@fergvax.unl.edu> > *** "It's Hammer time... NOT!" -- Anthrax >*** .signature randomizer 1.0 * write for free c source Well, they HAVE done it. My Classic here can do the Command-Option-X-O on startup and boot from ROM. Cool but useless. I also did this at work to connect to our AppleShare file server. It works! It even stores the automount volume info in Parameter Ram ( or at least a portion of Ram that can survive a reboot). But there's a problem (unless AppleShare 3.0 will change things)... I have had some bizarre crashes at startup with this (finder is damaged... yeah, right, it overwrote the ROM? Give me a break!) config. Here is the info as I read it on my screen right now: Finder 6.1x <--- Seems to be possibly RAM upgradable???? System 6.0.3 System memory usage = 166k You can't start up under MultiFinder You don't have access to printer drivers... The only Font available in Monaco 9 point. The Brightness CDEV is version 1.0d2 and has a Horizontal orientation!!! Macsbug is in there (evidence that this thing is buggy!) in ROM... AppleShare Prep file is there, but looks bogus (info stored elsewhere). No printer drivers (major problem). Only Control Panel and Chooser available. Basically, a neat hack that doesn't do much (the ROM seems to be copied into RAM anyway, as no memory is liberated by the ROM stuff...). Boot Disk 365,486 bytes used, 357K on disk, for 9 files Where: hiding inside this machine... Created; Thu, Mar 22, 1990, 8:10pm Modified: Thu, Nov 22 1990, 11:59pm. <--- Current date That's about it.... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Pascal Gosselin | Internet: P.Gosselin@CAM.ORG Applelink: CDA0585 | | Gest-Mac Inc. Apple VAR | Voice (514) 767-4444 Fax (514) 767-7337 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
james968@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (James Hammett) (11/23/90)
We were fiddling with the ROM disk yestereday. We've come up with some interesting ideas. We do computer support work. When we get calls about crashed disks, instead of having a customer rumage through all of there systems disk, simply to a ROM boot. In the afternoon our service came by and made another comment about using the Classic as a diskless Appletalk workstation. It does save startup info on mounting servers (including the user ID and password). That may be one of the possible uses of the ROM disk. Then of course maybe some Apple engineers just wanted a way to debugg the System software. James james968@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
wilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) (11/23/90)
In article <40071@ut-emx.uucp> james968@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (James Hammett) writes: >In the afternoon our service came by and made another comment about using the >Classic as a diskless Appletalk workstation. It does save startup info on >mounting servers (including the user ID and password). That may be one of the >possible uses of the ROM disk. Someone asked some time ago whether any other machines had the potential of booting across a net. Well, the Mac LC developer notes indicated that it did, although I'm not sure whether it's implemented the same way. Thus, this kind of thing may be real common in current Macs. I'm pretty excited about AppleShare 3.0 myself... --- Mark Wilkins -- ******* "Freedom is a road seldom traveled by the multitude!" ********** *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------* * Mark R. Wilkins wilkins@jarthur.claremont.edu {uunet}!jarthur!wilkins * ****** MARK.WILKINS on AppleLink ****** MWilkins on America Online ******
philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (11/24/90)
In article <9780@jarthur.Claremont.EDU>, wilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) writes: |> In article <40071@ut-emx.uucp> james968@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (James Hammett) writes: |> >In the afternoon our service came by and made another comment about using the |> >Classic as a diskless Appletalk workstation. It does save startup info on |> >mounting servers (including the user ID and password). That may be one of the |> >possible uses of the ROM disk. |> |> |> Someone asked some time ago whether any other machines had the potential |> of booting across a net. Well, the Mac LC developer notes indicated that it |> did, although I'm not sure whether it's implemented the same way. |> |> Thus, this kind of thing may be real common in current Macs. I'm pretty |> excited about AppleShare 3.0 myself... There are many situations where a totally diskless Mac could be useful (example - the Macs are user interface front-end to a database system with sensitive data, and you would rather not make it easy for someone to run an abritrary program on the Mac). If the Classic (maybe the LC?) can boot from a server, great - but what about earlier Macs? Surely, rather than a complete system in ROM, all that is needed is some subset of AppleTalk / AFP sufficient to find the server and load startup code. Maybe it would not be too difficult a project for someone to make a hardware add-on for older Macs to do just this. -- Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
wirehead@oxy.edu (David J. Harr) (11/25/90)
If you want to flip out, try dragging all the system stuff from the ROM Disk to the trash. Guess what? It gets dumped! Obviously, what is happening is that they are taking these resources from ROM and copying them to a RAM disk so it is not truly a ROM disk, but just a RAM disk that has its pieces stored in ROM. The preceding has been another fine product from the fevered brain of wirehead@oxy.edu "When you need the looniest opinions around, and you care enough to only sen the very best, use wirehead..."fnordfnordfnordfnordfnordfnordfnordfnordfnord
francis@magrathea.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) (11/26/90)
Does anybody know *why* Apple decided to copy the ROM disk into RAM? Surely most of it doesn't need to be written! (And it could be set up to use RAM only when it's been changed.) | Francis Stracke | My opinions are my own. I don't steal them.| | Department of Mathematics |=============================================| | University of Chicago | Until you stalk and overrun, | | francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu | you can't devour anyone. -- Hobbes |
phaedrus@milton.u.washington.edu (Mark Phaedrus) (11/28/90)
In article <1990Nov25.211747.1122@midway.uchicago.edu> francis@magrathea.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) writes: >Does anybody know *why* Apple decided to copy the ROM disk into >RAM? Surely most of it doesn't need to be written! Mac programs are guaranteed a writeable boot disk and a writeable System Folder; it's where they're allowed (nay, demanded) to store temporary files and such. A non-writeable boot disk would break just about everything out there, including lots of Apple's own stuff (even some of the Control Panel devices don't work on a write-protected boot disk). >(And it could be set up to use RAM only when it's been changed.) This could probably be done, but could lead to all kinds of problems. The Apple IIgs has almost exactly that same feature; a RAM disk that expands as you add files. (You're proposing a ROM disk that gradually copies itself to such a RAM disk as it changes, if I understand you correctly.) Any Apple IIgs owner knows never to use it that way. The reason: what if the system can't find the memory to expand the disk when it needs it? And if a write to the boot disk fails, it tends to produce rather impressive crashes. -- Internet: phaedrus@u.washington.edu (University of Washington, Seattle) The views expressed here are not those of this station or its management. "If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, consider an exciting career as a guillotine operator!"