231b3679@fergvax.unl.edu (Mike Gleason) (04/25/91)
I'd like to buy the whole 7.0 package with manuals, but as a student I have no choice. Does anyone else agree that when Apple puts 7.0 up for ftp (let's be optimistic here) that they should also post the MacWrite II (or whatever) files of the manual too? That way cheapskates or bookhaters could still read the documentation without blowing $100. I'm fairly sure that after reading the docs once I won't need to look at them again anyway, so even if I had 99.95, after one read the manuals would collect dust. Hell, I'd even settle for a plain mega-huge text file. _mike gleason 231b3679@fergvax.unl.edu university of nebraska
blm@6sceng.UUCP (Brian Matthews) (04/27/91)
In article <231b3679.672527239@fergvax> 231b3679@fergvax.unl.edu (Mike Gleason) writes: |I'd like to buy the whole 7.0 package with manuals, but as a student I have no |choice. Does anyone else agree that when Apple puts 7.0 up for ftp (let's be |optimistic here) that they should also post the MacWrite II (or whatever) files |of the manual too? Gee, maybe Apple should come and install System 7 on your Mac too. And while they're there they could do some of your homework. And you've problably got some term papers coming up... -- Brian L. Matthews blm@6sceng.UUCP
dlarkins@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Darrell B Larkins) (04/27/91)
Being a student, I can really relate. I don't think that's asking too much
of apple. I mean surely you don't believe that they don't use a Mac WP package
probably run through PageMaker or Xpress to print up their manuals, it'd be
really hard to make those available to ftp.apple.com huh? Not a bad suggestion,
however some readers just may not appreciate the things that they may take for
granted.
It's really hard to get any reference on the Mac whether for programming
or anything without spending $25-$35 a shot. I have the Online Companion and
really appreciate the thing on disk rather than paying for all 5 or 6 volumes
of Inside Mac.
dlarkins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Yes, well that's the blink-headed philistine pig-ignorance I've come to -|
| expect from you non-creative garbage. -- John Cleese "The Architect Sketch|
| dlarkins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu "OSU the best 5 or 6 years of your life" |ech@cbnewsk.att.com (ned.horvath) (04/27/91)
From article <1991Apr27.030039.20417@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, by dlarkins@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Darrell B Larkins): > Being a student, I can really relate. I don't think that's asking too much > of apple. I mean surely you don't believe that they don't use a Mac WP package > probably run through PageMaker or Xpress to print up their manuals, it'd be > really hard to make those available to ftp.apple.com huh? Being a former student, I get tired of hearing how everything ought to be free just because that would be convenient. The manuals on 7.0b4 come to 9.5 Mb -- that's just the USER documentation, never mind IM VI. That's a lot of net bandwidth to save you a few bucks. And what are you going to do with that after you ftp it to your local site? Hmm, let me guess: burn out one of the University's LaserWriter toner cartridges making yourself a "free" copy. Which you will skim and pitch, because this is doc written for Gassee's Mom, who wants detailed instructions just to get the floppies out of the box. If you want a quality, inexpensive upgrade to 7.0, go to the next couple of user group meetings. You'll learn all the hot shit about the hot new features, you'll get a nice set of 7.0 floppies for the price of the floppies, and you'll save a few trees and most of your bucks, and you'll meet the techNerds who already know all this stuff and will help you get 7.0 out of the box. This is the HIGH ROAD to system 7 -- if you're a student, you've got ENOUGH to read already, right? And watch this space, the interesting bugs and braindamage aren't documented, but we'll talk about 'em here... =Ned Horvath= Professional Student (ret.) ehorvath@attmail.com
xdpq8@isuvax.iastate.edu (04/27/91)
I have to agree with Ned on this one too. I AM a student. It's ridiculous to expect Apple to make the documentation available on FTP sites. You've already gotten the machine at a discount and it runs. Do you think Apple owes you any more??? Besides if you need manuals to figure out how to run some of the new stuff in system 7, you probably don't really need it. If you really want it bad enough, you can do what a lot of other students are gonna do: Not go to the bars for a few weeks or sell something to get the money. +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Steve Fuller | Iowa | I will choose the path that's clear. + | | State | I will choose freewill. + |xdpq8@ccvax.iastate.edu | University | -- RUSH -- + +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
umh@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (04/28/91)
In article <1991Apr27.043528.27235@cbnewsk.att.com>, ech@cbnewsk.att.com (ned.horvath) writes: > From article <1991Apr27.030039.20417@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, by dlarkins@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Darrell B Larkins): > >> Being a student, I can really relate. I don't think that's asking too much >> of apple. I mean surely you don't believe that they don't use a Mac WP package >> probably run through PageMaker or Xpress to print up their manuals, it'd be >> really hard to make those available to ftp.apple.com huh? > > Being a former student, I get tired of hearing how everything ought to be > free just because that would be convenient. The manuals on 7.0b4 come to > 9.5 Mb -- that's just the USER documentation, never mind IM VI. That's a > lot of net bandwidth to save you a few bucks. And what are you going > to do with that after you ftp it to your local site? Hmm, let me guess: > burn out one of the University's LaserWriter toner cartridges making > yourself a "free" copy. Which you will skim and pitch, because this is > doc written for Gassee's Mom, who wants detailed instructions just to > get the floppies out of the box. > > If you want a quality, inexpensive upgrade to 7.0, go to the next couple > of user group meetings. You'll learn all the hot shit about the hot new > features, you'll get a nice set of 7.0 floppies for the price of the > floppies, and you'll save a few trees and most of your bucks, and you'll > meet the techNerds who already know all this stuff and will help you get > 7.0 out of the box. This is the HIGH ROAD to system 7 -- if you're a > student, you've got ENOUGH to read already, right? > > And watch this space, the interesting bugs and braindamage aren't > documented, but we'll talk about 'em here... > > =Ned Horvath= > Professional Student (ret.) > ehorvath@attmail.com This is a totally unwarranted flame. 1) What is this mythical bandwidth being burned up by 9.5 Meg? The phone lifes for the internet exist and are dedicated full time- they are going to have to be replaced faster if they get used more. If someone is worried about people with *real* work being slowed down by lots of Mac Dosumentation transfering, put a timer in the ftp server at apple.com that only allows downloads between 8pm and 7am. 2) Why do you assume this guy is immediately going to print out all these docs that he has explicitly stated he will read just once. Maybe he, like me, has most of his documentation on line in his Mac, not printed, because that way it's faster to find something. 3) Apple tries to give the impression that system software is not there to make money for them. They imply that the cost of system 7 is for distribution printing and such. In that case, this guy's request is perfectly reasonable- it costs apple nothing and makes the lives of some of us easier. Maynard Handley
george@swbatl.sbc.com (George Nincehelser 5-6544) (04/28/91)
In article <1991Apr28.092559.4307@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> umh@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes: Ned Horvath's (ehorvath@attmail.com) comments removed for brevity that got the following response from Maynard Handley (umh@vax5.cit.cornell.edu). >This is a totally unwarranted flame. No it isn't. Ned brings up some valid points. >1) What is this mythical bandwidth being burned up by 9.5 Meg? The phone lifes >for the internet exist and are dedicated full time- they are going to have to >be replaced faster if they get used more. If someone is worried about people >with *real* work being slowed down by lots of Mac Dosumentation transfering, >put a timer in the ftp server at apple.com that only allows downloads between >8pm and 7am. Obviously you don't understand some of the structure of the internet. Some links *WILL NOT* be replaced or upgraded just because they are used more. They will only be upgraded if there is a valid business reason. Bogging down network with stupid stuff and then trying to justify an upgrade is just going to make some people in charge angry. "Need more bandwidth? Then get rid of that news thing!! Then come to me asking for more money!" We don't want that, do we? Being a person who does *real* work, (why the **, don't you believe in real work?) the timer on an ftp server is only a partial solution. Some of us work at night. Assuming 9.5 Meg is accurate. Do you really think it is fair and honest to be tying up that much of a resource on a educational or business machine unless you can justify it? Or do you subscribe to the theory of "If you use up all the disk space, they'll have to buy more."? Or how about the length of time you might be spending on a dial-up downloading 9.5 Meg to your system. Someone might really need that link. Oh! Wait a minute! If we tie up the phone lines, they'll have to buy more!!! Yeah. Right. "They" must have some pretty deep pockets. >2) Why do you assume this guy is immediately going to print out all these docs >that he has explicitly stated he will read just once. Maybe he, like me, has >most of his documentation on line in his Mac, not printed, because that way >it's faster to find something. It seems to be a habit for people to print manuals that have been stored on a computer system, but let's assume he won't. Now, I'm going to assume that this guy is going to be thoughtful and only use his own personal resources. O.K. About 10 Meg on a 100 Meg drive costing $400 (forgive the estimates)....comes out to $40 to store those manuals in this scenario... your milage may vary....seems a bit expensive too me. Let's then think about how often these docs will be accessed....once...maybe twice...remember, these were written for somebody's mother. These aren't unix man pages. Now think about how these manuals were indexed an arranged for the printed word....more often than not, such manuals aren't easy to navigate on a computer. It's not hypertext, remember. >3) Apple tries to give the impression that system software is not there to make >money for them. They imply that the cost of system 7 is for distribution >printing and such. In that case, this guy's request is perfectly reasonable- it >costs apple nothing and makes the lives of some of us easier. It does cost Apple something. It does cost most of us something. It just isn't direct to us, but it is there. It won't make life easier for the majority...these manuals don't contain the answers to life. In short, putting up System 7 manuals (as they now exist) is a waste of resources. Distributing the printed manuals makes the most sense for everybody. Go buy the manuals....then go plant a tree (to cover some of the enviromental cost, of course). Then everyone will be happy. -- / George David Nincehelser \ george@swbatl.sbc.com \ / / Southwestern Bell Telephone \ Phone: (314) 235-6544 \ / / / Advanced Technology Laboratory \ Fax: (314) 235-5797 \ / / / /\ 1010 Pine, St. Louis, MO 63101 \ de asini umbra disceptare \
price@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) (04/29/91)
In article <1991Apr28.165207.18209@swbatl.sbc.com>, george@swbatl.sbc.com (George Nincehelser 5-6544) writes: >In article <1991Apr28.092559.4307@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> umh@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes: >Ned Horvath's (ehorvath@attmail.com) comments removed for brevity that got >the following response from Maynard Handley (umh@vax5.cit.cornell.edu). >>This is a totally unwarranted flame. >No it isn't. Ned brings up some valid points. >>1) What is this mythical bandwidth being burned up by 9.5 Meg? The phone lifes >>for the internet exist and are dedicated full time- they are going to have to >>be replaced faster if they get used more. >Obviously you don't understand some of the structure of the internet. Some >links *WILL NOT* be replaced or upgraded just because they are used more. Well, actually, in a university environment, this is *exactly* why they get replaced or upgraded. Many (I would say most, but I don't have the stats to back it up) of us get our money from the government via grants and such, and those grants have the bizarre property that they go away if you don't use them. If you *do* use them, you get more. Go figure. This doesn't mean that I condone people wasting those resources to do things like downloading system manuals (IMHO a *criminal* waste of resources and time); I just wanted to clarify the situation. Businesses, of course, operate with real money, and such waste is probably (again, I don't have the stats) not as prevalent. >Assuming 9.5 Meg is accurate. Do you really think it is fair and honest to >be tying up that much of a resource on a educational or business machine unless >you can justify it? Most students (a significant percentage of the people reading this group, I'll bet) don't think that way. For all students reading, this is *NOT* a flame; the fact is, though, that students in universities are not usually trained to consider economical usage of finite resources. That's not really their fault - unless you become a serious CS student, you usually never hear about how to use computer resources effectively (i.e., how to fit your program into X bytes). As far as economical resources, most students who use computers are *never* taught to conserve. Some rules are enforced, perhaps, like charging for each printed page, but usually the charge comes out of some funny-money account set up for the student. Also, there aren't any lay books about this topic - after all, it really isn't all that interesting. So, unless someone hits you in the face with it (as often happens in the business world), you're not likely to learn how to conserve resources. >Or do you subscribe to the theory of "If you use up all >the disk space, they'll have to buy more."? Or how about the length of time >you might be spending on a dial-up downloading 9.5 Meg to your system. Someone >might really need that link. Oh! Wait a minute! If we tie up the phone lines, >they'll have to buy more!!! Yeah. Right. "They" must have some pretty deep >pockets. Again, this is how the system really works in a university environment. Waste is rewarded, since "they" assume that all the money you're spending is justifiable. Part of the problem is that the people actually spending the money aren't familiar with the systems they're buying. They must take the recommendations of those who use the systems, who don't think in terms of finite resources. I know this from personal experience - while learning about system management for a VAX, I discovered that I had to get by on less money than I "wanted". It was a valuable experience that I've tried to "port" to my Mac. >In short, putting up System 7 manuals (as they now exist) is a waste of >resources. Distributing the printed manuals makes the most sense for everybody. Lest anyone was misled by my previous comments, I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Price | Internet: price@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu 5-145 Knudsen Hall | BITNET: price@uclaph UCLA Dept. of Physics | SPAN: uclapp::price Los Angeles, CA 90024-1547 | YellNet: 213-825-2259 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where there is no solution, there is no problem.
george@swbatl.sbc.com (George Nincehelser 5-6544) (04/29/91)
In article <00947CD7.132B6140@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu> price@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) writes: > >>Obviously you don't understand some of the structure of the internet. Some >>links *WILL NOT* be replaced or upgraded just because they are used more. > > Well, actually, in a university environment, this is *exactly* why >they get replaced or upgraded. Many (I would say most, but I don't have >the stats to back it up) of us get our money from the government via grants >and such, and those grants have the bizarre property that they go away if >you don't use them. If you *do* use them, you get more. Go figure. > > This doesn't mean that I condone people wasting those resources to >do things like downloading system manuals (IMHO a *criminal* waste of >resources and time); I just wanted to clarify the situation. Businesses, >of course, operate with real money, and such waste is probably (again, I >don't have the stats) not as prevalent. I see your point on the .edu side. I was comming from the .com side as you could tell. I agree with your analysis wholeheartedly. It is very sad that resoures are wasted like this. What's worse is when some folks from the .edu environment move to the .com environment and apply the mindset you mention. That's what happens when you have poor managers of technology. The same thing that happens in the .edu world also happens in the .gov world. It also happens if the .com world gets too large and beauracratic. (*sigh*) Us folks that are proponents of using our resources wisely sure have a long, up-hill battle. -- / George David Nincehelser \ george@swbatl.sbc.com \ / / Southwestern Bell Telephone \ Phone: (314) 235-6544 \ / / / Advanced Technology Laboratory \ Fax: (314) 235-5797 \ / / / /\ 1010 Pine, St. Louis, MO 63101 \ de asini umbra disceptare \
tgoose@eng.umd.edu (Jason Garms) (05/01/91)
In article <1991Apr27.053351.14456@news.iastate.edu>, xdpq8@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: > I have to agree with Ned on this one too. I AM a student. It's ridiculous to > expect Apple to make the documentation available on FTP sites. You've already > gotten the machine at a discount and it runs. Do you think Apple owes you any > more??? Besides if you need manuals to figure out how to run some of the new > stuff in system 7, you probably don't really need it. If you really want it > bad enough, you can do what a lot of other students are gonna do: Not go to > the bars for a few weeks or sell something to get the money. I agree with Steve. I am a student and I have to put myself through school. I get tired of people bitching and moaning because "ooohhh Im a poor college person....". My suggestion... Go get a job! (Flame off) -- Jason Garms tgoose@eng.umd.edu
xdpq8@isuvax.iastate.edu (05/02/91)
Thanks Jason. Nice to know someone else feels the same way as I do... +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Steve Fuller | Iowa | I will choose the path that's clear. + | | State | I will choose freewill. + |xdpq8@ccvax.iastate.edu | University | -- RUSH -- + +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
markc@pro-angmar.UUCP (Mark Crump) (05/07/91)
In-Reply-To: message from tgoose@eng.umd.edu In all honesty, most of what Apple give you is useless anyway. I picked up the System 7 book at a show recently, more as a laugh than anythng and found it helpfull. agree that most of System 7 is fairly user intuitive, but there is allways gonna be a time when you go "Now why did that do that?". I too just finished scool, and did bitch and moan because my major was one that required at least 80hrs a week of work. I ate a lot of meals at bars where I got a soda, and ate the junk they gave you. So please ease up on poor college students. At least he's not on a street corner Mark Crump ---- ProLine: markc@pro-angmar Internet: pro-angmar!markc@alfalfa.com UUCP: uunet!alfalfa!pro-angmar!markc