bjones@Apple.COM (Bruce Jones) (04/29/91)
All of this talk about the cost of System 7 software brings up some interesting questions that might be more worth discussing here than trying to guess Apple's marketing plans. For example, how much is System 7 worth? Is it worth as much as After Dark (MacConnection price of $22)? Is it worth as much as MacWrite ($142)? How about as much as Empower ($195) Would you pay as much for it as you would Quark XPress ($519)? How should you determine the cost of software? By Size? Empower is about 70K, so it costs around $2.75/K. MacWrite is around 2100K so it costs about 7 cents/K. It looks like System 7.0 will be about 7800K, so by Empower standards it would cost $21,450. By MacWrite standards it would cost $546. Suppose you can get System 7.0 on the street for $75 (don't quote me on that - it's just a guess, I know no more than you), that would mean it costs just under 1 cent/K. Is that a fair price? How does Microsoft set their costs? Suppose you hold the belief that all Macintosh System Software should be free. Should it always be free? We never, will, but suppose for argument's sake, Apple decided to make A/UX the standard System Software. 40 Meg of software and a stack of manuals several feet high. Should it still be free? If it's free should Apple offer the free telephone support that millions of new Mac owners have demanded? Should it put all the manuals on an FTP server? Should it defy AT&T license agreements and let users copy it from dealers? Maybe A/UX is an extreme example. What if Apple decided to do a System 8 or 9 or whatever that had all the features people in this news group and elsewhere have been screaming about. I guess it would take 2 to 4 years and end up being about 10 Meg. Who should pay for the development costs? (Please don't forget development costs. I've been working on 7.0 for three years, and had a great time, but I couldn't and wouldn't have done it for free.) Should the people who were clamoring for the features pay for them? Should new Mac users pay for them? (That would NOT help bring down the cost of Macintosh hardware.) Should Apple employees pay for them with pay cuts? Should Apple shareholders pay for them? Who pays for Microsoft's system software development costs? Hardware manufacturers? The Microsoft applications groups? End users who buy the shrink wrapped software? You can flame my numbers and examples all you want (no, actually please don't waste the bandwidth) but the questions remain, how should System Software be priced, and who should pay for the development. Some discussion on these topics would be very interesting. Bruce =============================================================================== Bruce Jones bjones@apple.com Applications Group AppleLink: BRUCE.JONES Macintosh System Software 7.0 Team 408 974-3454 Apple Computer, Inc 20525 Marianni Avenue MS 81BB Cupertino, CA 95014 =============================================================================== -- =============================================================================== Bruce Jones bjones@apple.com Manager, Applications Group AppleLink: BRUCE.JONES Macintosh System Software 7.0 Team 408 974-3454 Apple Computer, Inc 20525 Marianni Avenue MS 81BB Cupertino, CA 95014 ===============================================================================
xdpq8@isuvax.iastate.edu (04/29/91)
Bruce, I have to say, once again that $99 for system 7.0\ with documentation is NOT at all an unfair price. I am a student who has limited resources but I'm going to save my pennies and go without other things to buy it. It's like that for a lot of things you buy, each person has to decide for him/herself what it is worth and then decide if they want to pay what Apple is asking. Those that don't can either go w/o or they can get the disks and ask friends for help.... +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Steve Fuller | Iowa | I will choose the path that's clear. + | | State | I will choose freewill. + |xdpq8@ccvax.iastate.edu | University | -- RUSH -- + +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
gtephx (Mike Pflueger) (05/01/91)
In article <52131@apple.Apple.COM>, bjones@Apple.COM (Bruce Jones) writes: [good arguments regarding how System software should be priced deleted] > Should it always be free? We never, will, but suppose for argument's sake, > Apple decided to make A/UX the standard System Software. 40 Meg of software > and a stack of manuals several feet high. Should it still be free? If it's > free should Apple offer the free telephone support that millions of new > Mac owners have demanded? Should it put all the manuals on an FTP server? > Should it defy AT&T license agreements and let users copy it from dealers? ... > about 10 Meg. Who should pay for the development costs? (Please > don't forget development costs. I've been working on 7.0 for three years, and > had a great time, but I couldn't and wouldn't have done it for free.) Should > the people who were clamoring for the features pay for them? Should new Mac > users pay for them? (That would NOT help bring down the cost of Macintosh > hardware.) Should Apple employees pay for them with pay cuts? Should > Apple shareholders pay for them? Who pays for Microsoft's system software > development costs? Hardware manufacturers? The Microsoft applications groups? > End users who buy the shrink wrapped software? ... > be priced, and who should pay for the development. Some discussion on these > topics would be very interesting. Bruce brings up some very good points. I'd like to add a few comments from a user perspective, and as someone who is also in the hardware and software development business. Please don't take any of this as a flame, it's just my viewpoint for discussion. I think the root of the user concern is the perception (implication?) that when one buys a Mac, system software has traditionally been "free". We paid for the development costs AND a reasonable amount of support when we paid for the hardware. Put simply, users have come to expect it. And now the rules appear to be changing. Apple also made the choice that they're in the business to sell HARDWARE when they spun off Claris - "free", good, and regular system upgrades HELP SELL HARDWARE AND KEEP THE MAC A VIABLE PLATFORM. It also allows after market developers to provide additional products and services which in turn also sells more Macs. THIS IS WHAT MADE APPLE FROM THE BEGINNING - THE REALIZATION THAT THE HARDWARE IS NOTHING IF YOU DON'T HAVE LOTS OF GOOD SOFTWARE TO RUN ON IT. Thus I think it is to Apple's advantage to provide "free" upgrades. I don't think the expectation has been (or IS) free manuals or distribution. We've come to expect that if we want copies of manuals and disks from Apple, we should pay for their production and distribution costs - but not for the software itself which has been distributed freely. And we all know that one way or another, these upgrades aren't "free". The end user obviously pays for the development. Either we pay for them up front with higher priced hardware, or we pay explicitly for each version of the software (and thus lower hardware prices). Certainly licensing fees must be paid from somewhere. But this doesn't mean that AU/X COULDN'T be distributed like other system software has been - certainly it would sell LOTS of Macs if it was. So I think some people feel that they are having the rug pulled out from under them when they hear - JUST BEFORE THE RELEASE - that all these new features they've been hearing about are gonna cost some more. I upgraded from a Plus to a IIsi about 5 months ago - in anticipation of 7.0 - and I know that I'll be somewhat upset if I don't get a "free" copy of at least the software. Since 7.0 was originally announced as scheduled to be released much earlier, maybe I should even get a "free" copy of the manuals. -- Mike Pflueger @ AG Communication Systems (formerly GTE Comm. Sys.), Phoenix, AZ UUCP: {...!ames!ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!hrc | att}!gtephx!pfluegerm Work: 602-582-7049 FAX: 602-582-7624 Home: 602-439-1978 Packet: WD8KPZ @ KB7TV.AZ.USA.NA Internet: gtephx!pfluegerm@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
kik@wjh12.harvard.edu (Ken Kreshtool) (05/01/91)
Regarding whether to get Sys 7 free (or cheap from a users group) versus paying $99 for Apple's kit with manuals. There is another alternative that no one seems to have mentioned yet, one that has been very popular with HyperCard 2.0: Get the disks at the best possible price, and then wait for someone to publish a how-to-use-it book. These books usually come out toot sweet and cost around $25. I suppose if you are really cheap or broke, you can stand in the bookstore and read, er, browse. I'll probably go for the Apple offering because it supposedly includes HyperCard 2.1 and the user groups distributions doesn't (says BCS*Mac). Ken Kreshtool kik@wjh12.harvard.edu
ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) (05/01/91)
In article <594@wjh12.harvard.edu> kik@wjh12.UUCP (Ken Kreshtool) writes: >There is another alternative that no one seems to have mentioned yet, one that >has been very popular with HyperCard 2.0: Get the disks >at the best possible price, and then wait for someone to publish a >how-to-use-it book. On that note, has anybody checked with the bookstores to see when any new books on System 7 are coming out. Especially books for programmers. Mac Tech Journal published an excerpt from a book called "System 7 Revealed." I am especially interested in this since APDA says that Inside Mac Vol VI won't be published until "sometime this summer."
jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) (05/02/91)
In article <1991Apr30.171133.26801@...!asuvax!gtephx> pfluegerm@...!asuvax!gtephx (Mike Pflueger) writes: >In article <52131@apple.Apple.COM>, bjones@Apple.COM (Bruce Jones) writes: > >Thus I think it is to Apple's advantage to provide "free" upgrades. This is probably true, in some sense (as long as they keep CPU prices up to pay for the tons of man-years they've spent on R&D). >Certainly licensing fees must be paid from somewhere. But this doesn't mean >that AU/X COULDN'T be distributed like other system software has been - >certainly it would sell LOTS of Macs if it was. Do you real;ly think that the set of people who want to buy Macs and the set of people who wouldn't now but would if UNIX were bundled is at all sizeable? If you want UNIX, there are plenty better platforms than the Mac for less $$$. If you want UNIX, why the hell would you ever lean toward a Mac at all, unless you had to? And why would you ever want UNIX in the first place? ;-) >So I think some people feel that they are having the rug pulled out from >under them when they hear - JUST BEFORE THE RELEASE - that all these >new features they've been hearing about are gonna cost some more. As has been stated before, it appears that the software will continue to be free, and the manuals will continue to cost, and there's nothing new under the sun, except that this upgrade *may* be major enough to "require" the manuals. >I upgraded from a Plus to a IIsi about 5 months ago - in anticipation of >7.0 - and I know that I'll be somewhat upset if I don't get a "free" copy >of at least the software. Since 7.0 was originally announced as scheduled >to be released much earlier, maybe I should even get a "free" copy of the >manuals. Yeah, right. Your anticipation should force them to give you the stuff for free. If I say I bought my Hyundai Excel with the anticipation of the Sonata, does that mean I get one free? jas -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey A. Sullivan | Senior Systems Programmer jas@venera.isi.edu | Information Sciences Institute jas@isi.edu | University of Southern California
ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) (05/02/91)
In <1991May01.164332.29426@convex.com> I wrote: >Has anybody checked with the bookstores to see when >any new books on System 7 are coming out? To answer my own question, in case anybody else is interested, I just spoke to Taylor's Technical Books and found out "System 7 Revleated" (for programmers) should be out in June. There are also at three books coming out for System 7 users, the first of which should be available in May. (The publisher is apparently holding on the release of the software.)
derek@leah.albany.edu (Cinderella Man) (05/03/91)
From jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) come these immortal words: >Do you really think that the set of people who want to buy Macs and >the set of people who wouldn't now but would if UNIX were bundled is >at all sizeable? If you want UNIX, there are plenty better platforms >than the Mac for less $$$. If you want UNIX, why the hell would you >ever lean toward a Mac at all, unless you had to? And why would you >ever want UNIX in the first place? ;-) I can think of several good reasons. Unix is the most comprehensive OS I've found, great at dealing with processes/jobs/multiple users, and has a TON of software and support out there. The Mac has the best interface I've come across, besting every window system I've used (~a dozen). OS and interface are NOT the same thing. If I had a need for what unix has to offer, I'd love a Mac face on it. I've got a SPARC on my desk now, temporarily until I get my IIci back (it's demoing at an expo). I can appreciate its design and uses, and I'd love some of those features in a Mac environment. I just can't afford it yet. >Jeffrey A. Sullivan | Senior Systems Programmer Derek L. -- + + "When nothing else remains, one must scream. Silence is the ultimate + + + crime against humanity." -- Nadezhda Mandelstam + + _________________________ [Affix disclaimer here] ________________________ + + + + + Each one's life a novel no one else has read -- Peart + + + +
markc@pro-angmar.UUCP (Mark Crump) (05/07/91)
In-Reply-To: message from jas@ISI.EDU I think that the policy should be that anyone who purchased a Mac after a certian date gets a free upgrade. Plain and sinple, just like software manufactures do. Specially since they annunced the release date it is not vaporware anymore. I say anone who bought a mac after Janurary 1 get an upgrade. Even though I a member of a beta site, and am getting the thing anyway, I suggest just getting the disks off a Usergroup and buying Craig Dunaloffs' book for 20 clams ---- ProLine: markc@pro-angmar Internet: pro-angmar!markc@alfalfa.com UUCP: uunet!alfalfa!pro-angmar!markc