eck@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Hangnail Whipperwill) (04/25/91)
Can anyone in a position to do so please confirm or deny MacWeek's quote of "The single-user upgrade (to System 7.0), to be priced at *$99*, includes 90 days of free technical support via a toll-free number"? A HUNDRED DOLLARS? Yeah, that's going to help Apple dispel their overpriced image REAL fast. Especially if they charge people who buy new systems after May 13 for the upgrade as well, which the article also claims Apple is planning on. I sincerely hope the article is hype, as most of MacWeek usually is. A hundred dollars, even with a million days of telephone support, is prohibitively expensive for me to justify spending. An Apple representative had quoted me a price of $60 three weeks ago, and that didn't even include the full 600-page documentation, just a condensed "startup" packet consisting of maybe two hundred. The 600-pager would only go to site licensers. If I'm going to even consider paying a hundred bucks for any kind of software, it had better darn well come with all the documentation! Is this Apple's evil plan, to make us use the telephone line because the manual's most technical line is "Some applications may not work with System 7.0. Experiment!" I don't know about the rest of the world, but if System 7 crashes my machine at 3am, I want to be able to find the answer to the problem right then, not wait until 9am PST to talk to some stupid customer service rep hired for three months to handle the crunch. Sorry if I sound a little upset, but I AM. Sure, Apple has a right to make money (or at least break even) on this new system; I've seen the betas, and I'll gladly pay for the software and documentation. But a hundred dollars (and no educational discount)? Forget it. Just my opinion. Brian Eck P.S. So as not to seem like just a bitcher, here are some alternatives: Perhaps a reduced-price version (maybe $50) that includes more hardcopy documentation but no telephone service? Perhaps an educational discount? Perhaps offer a price discount if you only want access to their automated help line? Anything? Please?
dawg6844@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Dan Walkowski) (04/25/91)
I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY wish people would stop quoting garbage
they heard from this, that, and the other source regarding pricing for Sys7.
AT LEAST THREE TIMES, APPLE EMPLOYEES INVOLVED WITH SYSTEM 7 HAVE POSTED TO
THIS NEWSGROUP STATING THAT THE DISTRIBUTION POLICY REGARDING SYS7 IS NO
DIFFERENT THAN IT HAS EVER BEEN REGARDING SYSTEM SOFTWARE.
1) SYSTEM 7 SOFTWARE WILL BE FREE.
2) THE DOCUMENTATION WILL COST MONEY.
THIS IS AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN.
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Dan Walkowski | To understand recursion,
Univ. of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci. | you must first understand recursion.
walkowsk@cs.uiuc.edu |breidenb@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Oliver Breidenbach) (04/25/91)
Gee, why aren't you listening? The facts: READ APPLES SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT and live happily ever after. When buying a mac you buy a LIFETIME (the macs lifetime, of course) right to use Apples System Software (AU/X not included) including all future releases. That means you can get even System 238 for FREE if you find someone who can copy it for you. Shurely you won't expect to get all the disks and Papers and Books (Manuals) for free. They cost A LOT OF MONEY. An System 7.0 upgrade pack includes at least 5 HD disks or 9 DD disks. That's about $10 raw material. If you think of maybe 1,000,000 potential purchasers that makes $10 million. And that does not include all the paper and manuals also necessary for a lot of people. So you have to add appr. $40 for books (apple's manual are kind of High Qual.) about $20 for administration, distribution and Toll Free Support line, that adds to about $70 cost for each package. And finally your dealer wants to live as well. Considering that, a price of $99 seems quite fair. And for those who don't need manuals, just get your copy from a dealer willing to charge you nothing for it. I bet Apple won't bother a lot if you get your copy from a friend. Remember you are already licensed to use it. Oliver. Disclaimer: I got all my information from reading the german license agreement. I will take no responsibility for anything that result from acting on my words. Everything you do is therefore your own problem.
hamilton@kickapoo.cs.iastate.edu (Jon Hamilton) (04/25/91)
eck@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Hangnail Whipperwill) writes: > Can anyone in a position to do so please confirm or deny MacWeek's >quote of "The single-user upgrade (to System 7.0), to be priced at >*$99*, includes 90 days of free technical support via a toll-free >number"? > A HUNDRED DOLLARS? Yeah, that's going to help Apple dispel their >overpriced image REAL fast. Especially if they charge people who buy >new systems after May 13 for the upgrade as well, which the article also >claims Apple is planning on. $100 with manuals isn't too bad (granted, it's a bit high, but not something to warrant a hissy-fit). You don't seriously expect Apple to advertise to the masses that system 7 will be available free if you don't want the documentation?! I have this mental picture of my father walking into an Apple dealership and figuring he'll just get it on disk with no manuals and try it to see if he likes it, and if he does then he'll buy the manuals. I'd get to (unwillingly) play tech. support dude for months. Most 'naive' Mac users don't have that luxury. They _need_ the manuals. > I sincerely hope the article is hype, as most of MacWeek usually is. >A hundred dollars, even with a million days of telephone support, is >prohibitively expensive for me to justify spending. An Apple >representative had quoted me a price of $60 three weeks ago, and that >didn't even include the full 600-page documentation, just a condensed >"startup" packet consisting of maybe two hundred. The 600-pager would >only go to site licensers. I'm really tired of all this bashing. It should be obvious that nobody really knows what's going to happen (except Apple, I hope :) ). C'mon guys, the 13th is less than 3 weeks away. Why don't you wait and see what actually happens before bitching and moaning about it? > If I'm going to even consider paying a hundred bucks for any kind of >software, it had better darn well come with all the documentation! Is >this Apple's evil plan, to make us use the telephone line because the >manual's most technical line is "Some applications may not work with >System 7.0. Experiment!" I don't know about the rest of the world, but >if System 7 crashes my machine at 3am, I want to be able to find the >answer to the problem right then, not wait until 9am PST to talk to some >stupid customer service rep hired for three months to handle the crunch. Lots of questions that you don't know the answers to. The unknown may frighten you, but it's certainly no reason to jump to conclusions. Just because you heard from Joe Blow that your computer was secretly programmed to explode at 3 AM on May 13 just don't make it so. > Sorry if I sound a little upset, but I AM. Sure, Apple has a right >to make money (or at least break even) on this new system; I've seen the >betas, and I'll gladly pay for the software and documentation. But a >hundred dollars (and no educational discount)? Forget it. Fine. Stick with 6.0.7 and save some money. After spending thousands of dollars on a computer, I don't think it's very reasonable to bitch about $100 to make it more functional. If you don't like the price Apple charges (whatever that price may be), don't buy it. Simple. >Just my opinion. >Brian Eck >P.S. So as not to seem like just a bitcher, here are some alternatives: > Perhaps a reduced-price version (maybe $50) that includes more > hardcopy documentation but no telephone service? Perhaps an > educational discount? Perhaps offer a price discount if you > only want access to their automated help line? Anything? Please? A reduced price version with no phone service is an idea, but it'd be difficult to do (read a pain). As I mentioned earlier, you should really wait and see what the situation _really_ is before you start offering alternatives. -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@kickapoo.cs.iastate.edu " I feel a lot more like I do now that I did before I got here " - can't remember who
eck@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Hangnail Whipperwill) (04/26/91)
Thank you. That's all I wanted, a little bit of rational discussion in response to my rational, if a bit heated, post. I take MacWeek with a grain of salt about the size of Montana, and therefore asked for confirmation of the newest pricing rumor. As to what Apple employees have to say, I was told by just such an employee about three weeks ago that you would NOT be able to just walk down to your dealer and copy the software. He implied that the full price would have to be paid (and he quoted $60 or $70...) I apologize for offending anyone; sorry if I don't have access to the founts of information that the flamers seem to have. This net is the most reliable source of info around on a lot of things, and conflicting reports have been posted by many people even here. After all, if you didn't want to read another message about the pricing of System 7.0, you could have exercised your freedom of choice and just pushed "n"... Again, thank you to those who took a minute to respond intelligently and civilly to my post. And NO thanks to the joker who flamed me in e-mail. Brian Eck P.S. I also did not really mean to bash Apple. After all, I've got to love the company after eight years of owning their products, eh? :) But our responsibility as consumers is to let the companies know if they might be doing something wrong. (zzzzip!) (the sound of my mouth being closed until May 13 after its first and only opening on this topic...)
smedley@mizar.udel.edu (Trevor Smedley) (04/26/91)
In article <1991Apr25.090251.23943@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE>, breidenb@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Oliver Breidenbach) writes: |> Gee, why aren't you listening? |>The facts: READ APPLES SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT and live happily ever after. |> When buying a mac you buy a LIFETIME (the macs lifetime, of course) right to |> use Apples System Software (AU/X not included) including all future releases. I've managed to keep out the the system 7 price wars, but I couldn't resist this one. I have a copy of the license in front of me, and I see absolutely no mention of future releases. I can't imagine any company granting rights for all future releases for any software product. -- Trevor Smedley Department of Computer and Information Sciences University of Delaware Newark, DE 19711 smedley@udel.edu
postmaster@bcs-mac.UUCP (Postmaster) (04/27/91)
In article <hamilton.672587256@kickapoo.cs.iastate.edu>, hamilton@kickapoo.cs.iastate.edu (Jon Hamilton) writes: >>P.S. So as not to seem like just a bitcher, here are some alternatives: >> Perhaps a reduced-price version (maybe $50) that includes more >> hardcopy documentation but no telephone service? Perhaps an >> educational discount? Perhaps offer a price discount if you >> only want access to their automated help line? Anything? Please? > >A reduced price version with no phone service is an idea, but it'd be difficult >to do (read a pain). As I mentioned earlier, you should really wait and >see what the situation _really_ is before you start offering alternatives. > BCS*Mac will be more than willing to send you the upgrade for $30. You can reach our offices on 617-625-7080 during business hours. BTW, phone support will be available from Apple via a *900* line for purchasers of the "reduced-price" version. Of course, user groups will remain a good source of information. --------------------------------------------- BCS*Mac--World's Largest Macintosh User Group 48 Grove St., #206 Somerville, MA 02114 617-625-7080
weiss@watson.seas.ucla.edu (Michael Weiss) (04/27/91)
In article <ECK.91Apr25155206@eniac.seas.upenn.edu> eck@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Hangnail Whipperwill) writes: > >P.S. I also did not really mean to bash Apple. Does that mean you made applesauce? :) (boooo, I know...) -- \ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | / - Michael Weiss | School of Engineering - - weiss@watson.seas.ucla.edu | and Applied Science - - izzydp5@oac.ucla.edu | UCLA -
breidenb@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Oliver Breidenbach) (04/27/91)
In article <51880@nigel.ee.udel.edu> smedley@udel.edu writes: >I've managed to keep out the the system 7 price wars, but I couldn't resist this one. I have a copy of the license in front of me, and I see absolutely no mention of future releases. I can't imagine any company granting rights for all future releases fo >r any software product. Quote from APPLE UK Software License Agreement: "1. LICENSE. The application, demonstration and system software INCLUDING ANY UPDATES thereto (the "Software") and related ducumentation are licensed to you by Apple Computer UK Limited. ..." That must be similar to the US license agreement... I believe it includes 7.0, right? Or is there something I missunderstand? Oliver.
drg@mdaali.mda.uth.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez) (05/02/91)
In article <1991Apr27.122406.6048@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> breidenb@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Oliver Breidenbach) writes: > In article <51880@nigel.ee.udel.edu> smedley@udel.edu writes: > >I've managed to keep out the the system 7 price wars, but I couldn't resist this one. I have a copy of the license in front of me, and I see absolutely no mention of future releases. I can't imagine any company granting rights for all future releases fo > >r any software product. > > Quote from APPLE UK Software License Agreement: > > "1. LICENSE. > The application, demonstration and system software INCLUDING ANY UPDATES > thereto (the "Software") and related ducumentation are licensed to you by > Apple Computer UK Limited. ..." > > That must be similar to the US license agreement... > I believe it includes 7.0, right? Or is there something I missunderstand? I got Apple's monthly mailing to user groups today. It says that all user groups that currently have licenses to distribute system software can expect to receive System 7.0 disks by the end of May at no charge. I guess most of them will distribute it for a nominal fee to cover costs of copying. This sounds like a cheap way to get System 7.0 if you don't want printed documentation or toll-free hand-holding from Apple. David Gutierrez drg@mdaali.mda.uth.tmc.edu "Only fools are positive." - Moe Howard
bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) (05/04/91)
eck@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Brian Eck) writes: | A HUNDRED DOLLARS? Yeah, that's going to help Apple dispel their |overpriced image REAL fast. Especially if they charge people who buy |new systems after May 13 for the upgrade as well, which the article also |claims Apple is planning on. Here are some prices quoted from MacConnection. Although the programs in question do not do the exact same things that System 7.0 does, they point out what real people are paying real money to get from their Macs every day: This product... at this price...is similar to this system 7 feature: Virtual 2.0 115 Virtual Memory Adobe Type Manager 2.0 55 TrueType Data Club (199 per 3 users) 67 Personal Appleshare OnCue 35 new Apple Menu support PLUS the proverbial MUCH MORE..... =========================================================================== discount price 272 rumored price of System 7.0 99 The simple fact is: Based on the features you receive, System 7.0 is a bargain at twice the price. | | [much of his original specious argument deleted] | | Sorry if I sound a little upset, but I AM. Sure, Apple has a right |to make money (or at least break even) on this new system; I've seen the |betas, and I'll gladly pay for the software and documentation. But a |hundred dollars (and no educational discount)? Forget it. No, the point is that you don't think Apple is entitled to $12.50 per disk for upgrades[1], even though other companies are. You are fooling yourself if you think that Apple will make money at those kinds of prices. Apple is doing this for one simple reason: to sell more computers based on the fact that their system software is excellent. bill coderre if you have problems with what I have to say, write to me directly. [1] $99 / 8 disks = $12.38 each, and assumes that manuals, tech support, and shipping/handling costs are FREE. NOTE: the opinions presented by apple employees on the usenet are their own, presented in their own spare time. NONE of the apple employees who posts to usenet are compensated for the service, nor is their posting endorsed by apple. NONE of these employees are allowed to speak officially for apple. in other words, the tech support and questions answered here are presented "AS IS." Take it or leave it.
bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) (05/14/91)
In a previous article, I wrote: |The simple fact is: Based on the features you receive, System 7.0 is a |bargain at twice the price. Apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks this way: on the cover of a suspiciously-early "reprint" of their "June" and "July" issues, MacUser hails "System 7.0: Software Bargain of the Year." This reprint is being handed out at the Developers' Conference. The reprint also covers compatibility, installation, and even avoiding System 7.0, for those fuddy-duddies who refuse to have fun. A definite "check it out" from Billy-Bob Heinous. bill coderre part of apple's "evil plan" and damn proud of it