francis@arthur.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) (05/10/91)
Somebody just wrote to me, "Guess what I'm going to be doing Monday night? Boy, apple.com is going to be one busy machine." Let's stop and think about this. news.lists estimates 43,000 people reading this group, 64,000 reading comp.sys.mac.misc. (And, strangely enough, 28,000 reading comp.sys.mac.) Say 5% of those 64K decide to FTP System 7. That'll be 3,000+ file transfers from that poor machine, at about 5.6M per, a total of 16.8G. Look at bandwidth considerations. The fastest FTP transfer I've ever seen (between here and some place in Wisconsin) was something like 50K/sec (I know there're probably some faster, but very rare). Say the average is about 20K/sec (probably actually a bit less). Not considering *any* CPU difficulties with doing many, many transfers at once, that's something on the order of a megasecond to do all these transfers from apple.com. A megasecond is over 10 days. This is a *major* problem. (For the moment, I'm not even considering the netlag & other factors that'll slow things down even more.) What can we do here? Obvious thing is *wait a while*. Maybe get it from dealers (the bandwidth of physically distributed disks is pretty high--consider a station wagon full of HD disks). If you can't or don't want to deal with that, wait a few days before FTPing. And go in with friends: download it once, and copy the disks. (Or even download to one machine, then transfer it by email--your local resources won't be getting clobbered like Apple's.) Now, I'm not so naive as to think people will cooperate enough to make this work. Of course not. (Even if they did, it'd be pretty silly for *everybody* to wait. What if everybody waited exactly three days? :-) We need to share the burden. Can we (with Apple's consent, of course) get other FTP sites set up to distribute Sys7? Will sumex & rascal have it in their mirrors? Will some other sites donate some resources here? (I hate asking for stuff like this when I can't give it myself--I would if I were a sysadmin. :-) If Apple won't consent to redistributing like this, maybe they could set up a mail-based server, which could queue the requests and fill them much more slowly than FTP does, thus letting them stretch out the strain on their resources. Any other suggestions? Anybody willing to play host? -- /============================================================================\ | Francis Stracke | My opinions are my own. I don't steal them.| | Department of Mathematics |=============================================| | University of Chicago | Earth: Love it or leave it. | | francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu | | \============================================================================/
cjeff@ghoti.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander) (05/10/91)
Indeed, if everybody tries to get it via ftp from apple.com, it will be a real zoo. There *are* alternatives. I've been told (never mind the source except to say it's good enough) that Apple is accelerating the process of getting the software and license updates out th BBSs that have System Software distribution licenses. And don't forget your friendly local users group. The Boston Computer Society's Mac group plans to be in position to distribute System 7 en masse within ten days of the official release. --Carl Alexander News Editor, The Active Window cjeff@ghoti.lcs.mit.edu
wangh@beasley.CS.ORST.EDU (Haiyan Wang) (05/10/91)
In article <FRANCIS.91May10000430@arthur.uchicago.edu> francis@arthur.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) writes: > >Somebody just wrote to me, "Guess what I'm going to be doing Monday >night? Boy, apple.com is going to be one busy machine." > >Let's stop and think about this. news.lists estimates 43,000 people >reading this group, 64,000 reading comp.sys.mac.misc. (And, strangely >enough, 28,000 reading comp.sys.mac.) Say 5% of those 64K decide to >FTP System 7. That'll be 3,000+ file transfers from that poor machine, >at about 5.6M per, a total of 16.8G. > >Look at bandwidth considerations. The fastest FTP transfer I've ever >seen (between here and some place in Wisconsin) was something like >50K/sec (I know there're probably some faster, but very rare). Say >the average is about 20K/sec (probably actually a bit less). Not >considering *any* CPU difficulties with doing many, many transfers at >once, that's something on the order of a megasecond to do all these >transfers from apple.com. A megasecond is over 10 days. This is a >*major* problem. (For the moment, I'm not even considering the netlag >& other factors that'll slow things down even more.) > >Any other suggestions? Anybody willing to play host? > If Apple is willing to let other FTP site to have system 7.0, they will have a much easier time on May 13. >-- >/============================================================================\ >| Francis Stracke | My opinions are my own. I don't steal them.| >| Department of Mathematics |=============================================| >| University of Chicago | Earth: Love it or leave it. | >| francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu | | >\============================================================================/
gaynor@agvax2.ag.ohio-state.edu (05/10/91)
In article <FRANCIS.91May10000430@arthur.uchicago.edu>, francis@arthur.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) writes: > >Somebody just wrote to me, "Guess what I'm going to be doing Monday >night? Boy, apple.com is going to be one busy machine." > [various other observations about what will happen...] Well, I seriously doubt that Apple will consent to letting any other site have the System Software available for FTP. Shoot, if Apple's lawyers -really- knoew what you could do on the Internet, they probably wouldn't let apple.com exist. Perhaps Mark ought to put a anon login limit on apple.com, similar to what they have over at sumex? --- Jim Gaynor - AgVAX System Manager - Academic Computing - Ohio State University VMS:<gaynor@agvax2.ag.ohio-state.edu> UNIX:<gaynor@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Disclaimer : All opinions expressed here are mine and only mine. So there! Witty Quote: "Think, think, think, think..." - Winnie-the-Pooh, Taoist Bear.
johnston@minnie.me.udel.edu (05/10/91)
Cooperating on 7.0 distribution is a great idea. In article <FRANCIS.91May10000430@arthur.uchicago.edu>, francis@arthur.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) writes... >What can we do here? Obvious thing is *wait a while*. That would be nice, but ... I was thinking along the lines of an e-mail distribution tree -- assuming that's OK with Apple. I also agree that it would make sense to put "mirror" copies on other sites, but even with that there will be a logjam. At present, no one knows what form the release will take. There are six HD disks images in the version I've seen. Compressed they run from 1200K to 800K. Any volunteers to organize a tree? Any other suggestions (besides abstinence from ftp-ing) that could cut down a potentially crippling ftp load on apple.com? -- Bill (johnston@minnie.me.udel.edu)
gaines@mars.njit.edu (Starman) (05/11/91)
>The following note from Mark Johnson has appeared on apple.com: > >System 7.0 will NOT be posted on Apple.com (130.43.2.2), so do not bother This is starting to really annoy me. I'm sorry, every week it's a different quote from a different Apple person and it's always yes/no/yes/no. It's almost as if they're saying yes on the even weeks, no on the odd weeks. What is Apple going to gain by keeping 6.0.7 on ftp.apple.com? NOBODY will want it. I would guess that's a waste of resources, eh? I'm still waiting for a message on comp.sys.mac.announce. =========================================================================== "They can fly rings around the moon, | Mike but we're years ahead of them on the highway" | gaines@mars.njit.edu =========================================================================== System 7 on an 800K floppy? HA! ===========================================================================
jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) (05/11/91)
Well, *if* System7 will be up on an apple FTP site somehwere, we can easily reduce the load by "giving" system 7 to 5 freinds (via email, ftp, disks, whatever), who then give 7.0 to 5 friends, etc. If I were the first one, and I FTP'd it from apple.com (a purely hypothetical case, apparently, now), then the first 5 to email me would get 7.0 from me. The rest would get (randomly) distributed to the 5, who would perform the same algorithm ad nauseum. Any takers? The key is that everyone who's a supplier have decent net connections. jas -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey A. Sullivan | Senior Systems Programmer jas@venera.isi.edu | Information Sciences Institute jas@isi.edu | University of Southern California
lentz@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Robert A. Lentz) (05/11/91)
In article <53216@nigel.ee.udel.edu> johnston@minnie.me.udel.edu writes: >Cooperating on 7.0 distribution is a great idea. > >In article <FRANCIS.91May10000430@arthur.uchicago.edu>, >francis@arthur.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) writes... > >>What can we do here? Obvious thing is *wait a while*. >... >Any other suggestions (besides abstinence from ftp-ing) that >could cut down a potentially crippling ftp load on apple.com? > >-- Bill (johnston@minnie.me.udel.edu) If only one person at each site (here being university or company or whatever) were to download it and let others who might attempt to ftp it know that they can save some netbandwitdth and obtain it from him, this might help, though unfortunately probably technically illegal according to the license under which we ftp it. Robert A. Lentz | "The dreamers are the ones who conceive of lentz@casbah.acns.nwu.edu | what could happen and the scientists are the ones who make it happen. The best of humanity are those who combine both traits." -Geordi, _Vendetta_ by Peter David
wangh@beasley.CS.ORST.EDU (Haiyan Wang) (05/11/91)
In article <1991May10.233305.15754@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> lentz@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Robert A. Lentz) writes: > >If only one person at each site (here being university or company or >whatever) were to download it and let others who might attempt to ftp it >know that they can save some netbandwitdth and obtain it from him, this >might help, though unfortunately probably technically illegal according to >the license under which we ftp it. > Is it possible for those `smart' apple lawers to sign some sort of documents so people can put system 7.0 on other ftp site for a short period of time, say one week? Just a wild guess. Guangliang He ghe@physics.orst.edu
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) (05/11/91)
In article <1991May11.054749.14615@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> wangh@beasley.CS.ORST.EDU (Haiyan Wang) writes: > >Is it possible for those `smart' apple lawers to sign some sort of documents >so people can put system 7.0 on other ftp site for a short period of time, >say one week? > Regardless of where you get System 7.0 (upgrade kits, etc.) it is currently ILLEGAL to redistribute System Software via FTP or other electronic means without a license from Apple Software Licensing. Fortunately, many User Groups and larger BBS systems have System Software redistribution licenses which allows them to redistribute. We have been able to distribute things from Apple machines because we also have a license for our own site. So although no one can stop you from giving floppy disk copies of System Software to your friends and associates (or doing a net install -- much more effective if you have an AFP server), it would NOT be a good idea to make System 7.0 or other system software available on FTP sites without the proper license. -- Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_
ralph@cbnewsj.att.com (Ralph Brandi) (05/12/91)
In article <FRANCIS.91May10000430@arthur.uchicago.edu> francis@arthur.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) writes: >Somebody just wrote to me, "Guess what I'm going to be doing Monday >night? Boy, apple.com is going to be one busy machine." ...with a lot of short logins until people realize that System 7.0 isn't there. There *is*, however, a new directory on ftp.apple.com called "watch_this_space". I have no idea what they plan on putting there. -- Ralph Brandi ralph@mtunq.att.com att!mtunq!ralph R.I.P. Radio Canada International 1942-1991
wangh@beasley.CS.ORST.EDU (Haiyan Wang) (05/12/91)
In article <52759@apple.Apple.COM> mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) writes: >In article <1991May11.054749.14615@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> wangh@beasley.CS.ORST.EDU (Haiyan Wang) writes: >> >>Is it possible for those `smart' apple lawers to sign some sort of documents >>so people can put system 7.0 on other ftp site for a short period of time, >>say one week? >> > >Regardless of where you get System 7.0 (upgrade kits, etc.) it is currently >ILLEGAL to redistribute System Software via FTP or other electronic means >without a license from Apple Software Licensing. > Yes. I know. That is why I sugested apple lawers to sign temp. licenses. If Apple doesn't like this sugestion, forget it. If Apple like this, wait a minite, do I entitle any loyalty for this? :-). >-- >Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson >Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com >Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson > >"You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" > - Richard Bach, _One_ Haiyan Wang Go Blazers!!! wangh@ucs.orst.edu Go Blazers!!!
chai@hawk.cs.ukans.edu (Ian Chai) (05/15/91)
In article <52759@apple.Apple.COM> mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) writes: >if you have an AFP server), it would NOT be a good idea to make System 7.0 >or other system software available on FTP sites without the proper license. Ah, well, sigh. Ok, I withdraw my offer for that sun as a temporary site, then. -- Ian Chai Internet: chai@cs.ukans.edu Bitnet: 2fntnougat@ukanvax I don't believe in flaming. If I appear to be flaming, either (a) it's an illusion due to the lack of nonverbal cues or (b) my sprinkler system has suffered a momentary glitch, so just ignore me until it's fixed.