kscott@cgl.ucsf.edu (Kevin Scott) (05/15/91)
>What can we do here? Obvious thing is *wait a while*. Maybe get it >from dealers (the bandwidth of physically distributed disks is pretty >high--consider a station wagon full of HD disks). If you can't or >don't want to deal with that, wait a few days before FTPing. And go >in with friends: download it once, and copy the disks. This is exactly what we shouldn't do. Apple wants us to download it from their machine so they might keep track of who is downloading their software. They have a right to do this, unless they make an agreement with another site to serve as a server we should not expect that. On a negative note, it is surprising that ftp.apple.com would be down, after all they should have enough support. Now Chuq or another apple would tell us if if ftp.apple.com was not really crashed as the rumor mill was wrong (they deserve the respect they earn), so I dismiss the grumblings I have heard about apple having another 6.06 on their hands. I am disturbed by the obvious contradiction that they have not placed 7.0 on apple.com. If ftp.apple.com is really down, why haven't they moved it to apple.com? Humorous quote: "they'll be fired if they actually do something sensible to help customers". All in all, I have to say this is a free upgrade, we really have to be satisfied with what we get. Apple may have faults, but providing free upgrades in a timely manner can not be held against them. They have bette things to do.
rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Robert K Shull) (05/15/91)
In article <kscott.674276060@locke.mmwb.ucsf.edu> kscott@cgl.ucsf.edu (Kevin Scott) writes: >On a negative note, it is surprising that ftp.apple.com would be down, after Why? If it's a Mac IIx, as the rumor goes, it's undoubtedly wildly overloaded. Shoot, it would probably be wildly overloaded no matter what machine they were using. Spectacular isn't the word for what the demand's probably like. >all they should have enough support. Now Chuq or another apple would tell us if There's support, and then there's buying a half million dollar machine as an ftp server (remember, you're wanting something with VASTLY more I/O capacity than anything you can put on a desk.) Try something like a Sequent Symmetry or Balance. >if ftp.apple.com was not really crashed as the rumor mill was wrong (they >deserve the respect they earn), so I dismiss the grumblings I have heard about >apple having another 6.06 on their hands. No problems with 7.0 here. Got it running on Mac II's, IIx's, and a IIsi. Haven't yet found an application that worked under 6.05 that won't work under 7.0. Got some INIT problems, but not many (MasterJuggler for one.) :-( >I am disturbed by the obvious contradiction that they have not placed 7.0 on >apple.com. If ftp.apple.com is really down, why haven't they moved it to I understand that apple.com is a Real Machine. In other words, people are actually trying to get some work done on it. Not to mention that it does various news feeds which are of Major Importance to some (insert statement of personal bias here.) >apple.com? Humorous quote: "they'll be fired if they actually do something >sensible to help customers". Unhumorous thought: "they'll be fired if they bring our network to its knees distributing System 7." >All in all, I have to say this is a free upgrade, we really have to be satisfied >with what we get. Apple may have faults, but providing free upgrades in a >timely manner can not be held against them. They have bette things to do. I get the idea that (so far at least) ftp service from apple.com is kind of like news service at most places (including here.) It's great, the users get something out of it, but no one's getting paid to do it, and it better not cause trouble. That's why I doubly appreciate the efforts of the people at Apple. I get the impression that this is NOT their job, but something they feel should be done. Robert -- Robert K. Shull rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu chinet!uokmax!rob
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach, only here for the beer) (05/15/91)
>On a negative note, it is surprising that ftp.apple.com would be down, after >all they should have enough support. Anyone who learns how to properly schedule hardware failures and disk crashes to non-critical times in the Gantt chart is guaranteed to be rich. Things break when they want to, not when they're convenient. And Apple is currently hosting a party for a few thousand close friends down the road, so everyone is just a mite busy. >I am disturbed by the obvious contradiction that they have not placed 7.0 on >apple.com. If ftp.apple.com is really down, why haven't they moved it to >apple.com? See previous paragraph. Also, apple.com is short on disk space for ftp, and the amount of work it would take to do a 'trivial' thing like get it up on apple.com and make sure all of it is accessible and not corrupted and etc and etc would take a good chunk of time. Better to work on a permanent solution than spend a lot of time on a temporary one and then put the real fix off that much lonter. Everyone is missing -- they're at the developers conference putting in 12 and 14 hour days doing things they're already committed to doing. It may be inconvenient for folks on the net, but when people have paid chunks of money and flown in from all over the world to listen, talk (and sometimes yell) at Apple, it makes sense for the Apple folks to be where the time- and calendar-critical things are. Those folks are flying home in a few days. Ftp.apple.com will still be around when sanity returns to the Apple campus. It's called "setting priorities". You can't always do everything right now. Some stuff has to wait. >Humorous quote: "they'll be fired if they actually do something >sensible to help customers". Maybe the folks will simply say the heck with it and not bother? I know THIS comment was supposed to be humourous, but it's the latest in a long line of things that really grate on my nerves -- and on the nerves of my cohorts here. These folks (I'm just moral support -- I'm not involved in running these machines) work their tushies off, weekends, evenings, etc, trying to get stuff ready and, among other things, they've been yelled at because the software wasn't available PRIOR to its official release, yelled at because factors beyond their control have made the machine unavailable and yelled at for dozens of other reasons -- all because the massive gymnastics weren't perfect (or worse, WERE perfect, but weren't what you wanted). Hey, we do what we can, saddled with little things like 24 hour days, lawyers that are paid to protect Apple's business interests, the need to actually MAKE enough money to support our profit sharing checks so they don't reposses our Ferarris and the fact that we happen to love our jobs and don't want to be fired for doing anything that gets us in trouble over any of these things (and -- please don't tell anyone -- many of us WILL consider bending rules here and there if we feel it's really important. But I didn't say that. Neither did David Ramsey). So, you know? It's been a bitch of a month. You want to take a massive piece code that completely redoes what we've done before, adds some really revolutionary new features while guaranteeing compatibility with something like 4000 existing, shipping software packages, make sure tens of thousands of copies are available on the day it intros -- while preparing for a developer's technicao conference and the associated hassles. We do what we can. We aren't perfect, okay? Neither are you. We do what we can. If it's not good enough, then go buy a PC and download a free copy of Windows 3.0 from the Microsoft server, okay? Keep it in perspective. As a corporate entity, the last six weeks have been one of the hairiest experiences I've ever been a part of. We have a lot of people on the verge (or beyond) of exhaustion, some walking wounded and a few cases of full-blown burnout, all to turn out the best, most stable, most revolutionary damn piece of code we could do -- and we're getting yelled at because some folks aren't going to be able to get theer FREE copy of it for another two or three days. Ergo we're scum. Like, name how many OTHER companies give you the opportunity to do this under any circumstances? 10? Five? Three? It's FREE. You're getting exactly what you're paying for. If life isn't perfect, tough. You're welcome to go do it better. (enough rant -- by this time, the small minority of people that this message is aimed at have already stopped reading and are starting to write their next message on how insensitive Apple is to their needs. A few more are now pissed at me for yelling at them, because they'd never do that (of course, I'm NOT yelling at them if they didn't do it, but they'll still be pissed). The rest are nodding their heads and saying "I wish I could do something about those idiots, too" -- so do I. And sooner or later we'll probably hear from Tim, too) To the majority of you who have been patience and understanding -- thanks. We do what we can. To the idiots, I suggest you get enough of a life to learn just how silly, immature and selfish you sound to us. It doesn't make it any more tempting to spend the time and energy to make the net useful for everyone -- it's done for the majority, but the few screamers and idiots make it really hard to justifiy to myself sometime... (oh. One final comment. this message probably won't do a bit of good -- the ones who most need to read it won't bother, or won't let it sink in through their skulls. But *I* feel better, so thanks for listening) -- Chuq Von Rospach >=< chuq@apple.com >=< GEnie:CHUQ or MAC.BIGOT >=< ALink:CHUQ SFWA Nebula Awards Reports Editor =+= Editor, OtherRealms Book Reviewer, Amazing Stories ---@--- #include <standard/disclaimer.h> Recommended: ORION IN THE DYING TIME Ben Bova (Tor, Aug, ***-); SACRED VISIONS Greeley&Cassutt (Tor, Aug, ****+); MEN AT WORK George Will (****); XENOCIDE Orson Scott Card (August, ****)
jcav@quads.uchicago.edu (john cavallino) (05/15/91)
In article <52889@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach, only here for the beer) writes: [steam-release deleted] I sympathise with you, Chuq. People should indeed stop to consider things like how many other huge companies have public FTP servers AT ALL, never mind little details like how unusual it is to have even the possibility of obtaining the operating system FREE OF CHARGE. I think there's a problem on the net of people _not stopping to think_ before they post. It's in the Netiquette guidelines, and it's just common sense anyway, but people still don't do it often enough. Anayway, I just wanted to let you know that there are many of us out here who appreciate what you do. -- John Cavallino | EMail: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu University of Chicago Hospitals | USMail: 5841 S. Maryland Ave, Box 145 Office of Facilities Management | Chicago, IL 60637 B0 f++ w c+ g+ k s(+) e+ h- pv (qv) | Telephone: 312-702-6900
if30@vaxb.acs.unt.edu (05/15/91)
In article <1991May15.152446.22109@midway.uchicago.edu>, jcav@quads.uchicago.edu (john cavallino) writes: > In article <52889@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach, only here > for the beer) writes: > [steam-release deleted] > > I sympathise with you, Chuq. People should indeed stop to consider things > like how many other huge companies have public FTP servers AT ALL, never mind > little details like how unusual it is to have even the possibility of > obtaining the operating system FREE OF CHARGE. I think there's a problem on > the net of people _not stopping to think_ before they post. It's in the > Netiquette guidelines, and it's just common sense anyway, but people still > don't do it often enough. Anayway, I just wanted to let you know that > there are many of us out here who appreciate what you do. > > -- > John Cavallino | EMail: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu > University of Chicago Hospitals | USMail: 5841 S. Maryland Ave, Box 145 > Office of Facilities Management | Chicago, IL 60637 > B0 f++ w c+ g+ k s(+) e+ h- pv (qv) | Telephone: 312-702-6900 Same here, Chuq. BW
jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) (05/16/91)
In article <1991May15.152446.22109@midway.uchicago.edu> jcav@quads.uchicago.edu (john cavallino) writes: >In article <52889@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach, only here >for the beer) writes: >[steam-release deleted] > >I sympathise with you, Chuq. People should indeed stop to consider things >like how many other huge companies have public FTP servers AT ALL, never mind >little details like how unusual it is to have even the possibility of >obtaining the operating system FREE OF CHARGE. I think there's a problem on >the net of people _not stopping to think_ before they post. It's in the >Netiquette guidelines, and it's just common sense anyway, but people still >don't do it often enough. Anayway, I just wanted to let you know that >there are many of us out here who appreciate what you do. > >-- >John Cavallino | EMail: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu >University of Chicago Hospitals | USMail: 5841 S. Maryland Ave, Box 145 >Office of Facilities Management | Chicago, IL 60637 >B0 f++ w c+ g+ k s(+) e+ h- pv (qv) | Telephone: 312-702-6900 S M O O C H! Guess who's stumping for first-in-line on ftp.apple.com? jas P.S. ;-) I also agree that apple is being more nice than they need to; but am also imaptient for *someone* around here (dealer, USC, FTP) to let me get/buy 7.0! -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey A. Sullivan | Senior Systems Programmer jas@venera.isi.edu | Information Sciences Institute jas@isi.edu | University of Southern California
tempest@ecst.csuchico.edu (Kenneth K.F. Lui) (05/16/91)
In article <1991May15.152446.22109@midway.uchicago.edu> jcav@quads.uchicago.edu (john cavallino) writes: >I sympathise with you, Chuq. People should indeed stop to consider things >like how many other huge companies have public FTP servers AT ALL Give some people an inch, and they'll take a mile. Who knows, the people with the power at Apple may see some of the complaints as things they don't want to deal with and pull the plug on ftp.apple.com. We're truely fortunate Apple has an FTP server--IBM doesn't, Microsoft doesn't (not that are as well known as Apple's) plus one where system software is available for anonymous FTP. Ken ______________________________________________________________________________ tempest@ecst.csuchico.edu, tempest@walleye.ecst.csuchico.edu,|Kenneth K.F. Lui| tempest@sutro.sfsu.edu, tempest@wet.UUCP |________________|
gaynor@agvax2.ag.ohio-state.edu (05/16/91)
In article <kscott.674276060@locke.mmwb.ucsf.edu>, kscott@cgl.ucsf.edu (Kevin Scott) writes: >On a negative note, it is surprising that ftp.apple.com would be down, after >all they should have enough support. Now, I may have read you wrong here, so if I'm off base.. ftp.apple.com (and apple.com) don't really have a whole lot of support inside Apple as anonymous ftp sites. As Mark J has told us many times, all the work on those systems is done on their own time, and, despite referring to it in APDA stuff, ftp.apple.com and apple.com aren't really recognized as official beasts, and don't get the hardware and manhour allocations that an offical thing would get. --- Jim Gaynor - AgVAX System Manager - Academic Computing - Ohio State University VMS:<gaynor@agvax2.ag.ohio-state.edu> UNIX:<gaynor@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Disclaimer : All opinions expressed here are mine and only mine. So there! Witty Quote: "Think, think, think, think..." - Winnie-the-Pooh, Taoist Bear.
hv@uwasa.fi (Harri Valkama) (05/16/91)
In article <1991May16.051621.11997@ecst.csuchico.edu> tempest@ecst.csuchico.edu (Kenneth K.F. Lui) writes: >In article <1991May15.152446.22109@midway.uchicago.edu> jcav@quads.uchicago.edu (john cavallino) writes: >>I sympathise with you, Chuq. People should indeed stop to consider things >>like how many other huge companies have public FTP servers AT ALL > >Give some people an inch, and they'll take a mile. Who knows, >the people with the power at Apple may see some of the complaints >as things they don't want to deal with and pull the plug on >ftp.apple.com. We're truely fortunate Apple has an FTP server--IBM >doesn't, Microsoft doesn't (not that are as well known as Apple's) >plus one where system software is available for anonymous FTP. > >Ken Well, many of you understood my latest message very wrong so I must be careful now. So I have only one Q: CAN YOU FTP IT NOW ? I couldn't. I had over two days batchftp running and trying in but nothing happened. I know already that Mark tried his best. We have emailed each other already. So this is more like a rhetorical Q. -- == Harri Valkama, University of Vaasa, Finland ============================ P.O. Box 700, 65101 VAASA, Finland (tel:+358 61 248426 fax:+358 61 248465) Anon ftp garbo.uwasa.fi (128.214.12.37) & nic.funet.fi (128.214.6.100) hv@uwasa.fi hv@finfiles.bitnet /s=hv/o=uwasa/prdm=inet/amdm=fumail/c=fi
bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) (05/17/91)
> On a negative note, it is surprising that ftp.apple.com would be down, after > all they should have enough support. Is it really so surprising? % host -t hinfo ftp.apple.com ftp.apple.com is a nickname for bric-a-brac.apple.com bric-a-brac.apple.com HINFO MacIIx UNIX Hundreds of people pounding a IIx. It's a wonder it's not completely smoked. -- Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu
breidenb@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Oliver Breidenbach) (05/17/91)
In article <kscott.674276060@locke.mmwb.ucsf.edu>, kscott@cgl.ucsf.edu (Kevin Scott) writes: |> >don't want to deal with that, wait a few days before FTPing. And go |> >in with friends: download it once, and copy the disks. |> |> This is exactly what we shouldn't do. Apple wants us to download it from their |> machine so they might keep track of who is downloading their software. They |> have a right to do this, unless they make an agreement with another site |> to serve as a server we should not expect that. It is exactly what they want us to do, but unfortunately, they can't tell us. So just do it, never lose any word about it and there you go. And besides, I logged into ftp.apple.com with: user anonymous bla@bla. They can't track down this, can they? Before you start flaming: I was there for 2 minutes looking for additional stuff. (I got Sys 7 on disks here in Germany on Monday (10000 miles from cupertino)). And I used my real e-mail adress as password, of course. My point is that anonymous ftp IS anonymous unless the user identifies himself purely on his own will. Oliver.
dpassage@soda.berkeley.edu (David G. Paschich) (05/17/91)
In article <1991May17.065303.4226@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> breidenb@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Oliver Breidenbach) writes: >And besides, I logged into ftp.apple.com with: > >user anonymous bla@bla. > >They can't track down this, can they? [ stuff deleted ] >My >point is that anonymous ftp IS anonymous unless the user identifies himself >purely on his own will. Almost. They can track which IP address you came from, and then run a finger at that IP address to see who's logged in. Some sites do a reverse name lookup on the hostname you type at the "password" prompt and compare it with where you're coming from and complain if they don't match. IMHO, Apple should encourage System 7's distribution to be as wide as possible, almost make it "shareware". That means not caring exactly who snags it via FTP. Since the only people who can run it already paid Apple for their Macs (or own Mac Plus ROM's for their Amigas and Ataris :), it makes little sense to restrict its distribution, even discounting the computer industry strategic considerations. David Paschich dpassage@[ocf|soda].berkeley.edu
francis@math.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) (05/18/91)
In article <1991May17.065303.4226@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> breidenb@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Oliver Breidenbach) writes: > It [not redistributing] is exactly what they want us to do, but >unfortunately, they can't tell us. Of *course* they can tell us--it's their software, isn't it? They have every right to protect it. Been a while since I saw piracy advocated so blatantly on Usenet. -- /============================================================================\ | Francis Stracke | My opinions are my own. I don't steal them.| | Department of Mathematics |=============================================| | University of Chicago | Earth: Love it or leave it. | | francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu | | \============================================================================/
amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) (05/19/91)
In article <4381@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) writes: Hundreds of people pounding a IIx. It's a wonder it's not completely smoked. It did, which was part of the problem. From the comments made by Erik and Mark, the poor thing simply couldn't handle the I/O load presented by 30+ FTP sessions (I seem to remember the phrase "5 logins a minute"...), and A/UX crashed when some of its kernel tables overflowed (for you UNIX kernel hackers out there, I believe it was the callout table). Mark & Erik then scurried around to find an FTP server patch that would limit the number of simultaneous sessions, which would at least fix the symptom. I'd just like to throw in a couple observations, based on watching them try and do this while the WWDC was going on (and where they both had "official duties" to take care of at the same time): 1. Getting System 7.0 onto ftp.apple.com and available to the Internet seemed to be a large personal priority to the people involved, especially in the face of all of the "pre-emptive" complaints from people who decided that it wasn't going to happen. 2. They spent a lot of time and energy running between San Jose and Cupertino in order to get things fixed as quickly as possible, in between live DTS consultations, setting up the networking for the ATG demo (which involved live T1 speed connections to the Apple Cray and NCSA, for those of you who weren't there), not to mention the occasional break for meals or sleep. Personally, I was quite impressed. -- Amanda Walker amanda@visix.com Visix Software Inc. ...!uunet!visix!amanda -- "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory or defeat." -- Theodore Roosevelt
price@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) (05/21/91)
In article <1991May19.053541.27596@visix.com>, amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) writes: [...one reason for the possibly-deserved canonization of Mark Johnson et al. deleted...] >2. They spent a lot of time and energy running between San Jose and > Cupertino in order to get things fixed as quickly as possible, in > between live DTS consultations, setting up the networking for the ATG > demo (which involved live T1 speed connections to the Apple Cray > and NCSA, for those of you who weren't there), not to mention the > occasional break for meals or sleep. Wait a minute here - you mean they *took*time*out* for meals and sleep? No wonder it took so long... :) John Price * * * * price@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu Where there is no solution, there is no problem.