robg@Apple.COM (Rob Griffiths) (05/18/91)
I (accidentally) stumbled on something which appears to be an easily
repeatable method of crashing my machine...The specifics are as follows:
System: Mac IIcx, 8/80, extensions disabled at startup (shift key).
Running System 7.0 Golden Master. Miscellaneous hardware
attached is limited to an Apple Data Modem 2400. Virtual
memory is off.
Situation: I created an alias to the trash can. I dragged this alias
onto the main (root level) window of my hard disk. At this point, I
renamed 'Trash Alias' to 'Trashcan' (The view on my main window is
set to 'by Icon', and my disk contains about 60MB of data, if it makes
any difference...).
Once the alias was established, I dragged an old utility into it...
It seemed to take a few seconds; much longer than it should have had
I just thrown it into the actual trash.
Next, I double-clicked the 'Trashcan' alias, to see what was inside. At
this point, the Mac dies. The first time it happened, I got a "System
Error -32" and the restart button. When I repeated the experiment the
second time, the System Error did not appear. Instead, I got a watch
cursor which I could move around, but not click/activate/do anything
with. Only 'out' was to use the programmer's reset...
I was able to reproduce this with extensions on and off, and with my two
cdev-type programs (flowfazer and colordesk) installed and not installed.
Anyone want to check if this problem exists on non-cx machines? I plan
on checking my fx tomorrow at work. WARNING: The first time my machine
crashed, it did so badly enough that all the color icons vanished, and
I had to rebuild the desktop. On the positive side, the item I had
thrown into the trash alias was still there, alive and well...
I'd love to know if anyone else can re-create this problem. NOTE: I'm
not involved in System 7 development at all ... just another user trying
to explore the new OS!
-rob. --- I don't speak (or type) for Apple ... This junk is all mine! ---
--
/---------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| R. Griffiths | "Those who make peaceful resolution impossible |
| Apple Computer, Inc. | will make violent revolution inevitable" JFK |
|----------------------| |
| PP-ASEL(Glider soon) | "Of course you realize this means war!" Bugs Bunny |
\---------------------------------------------------------------------------/ji08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeffrey D. Illian) (05/19/91)
I'm running system 7.0 on a IIci and with or without any of my inits and
cdevs, I have not been able to reproduce any of the alias crashes
involving the trash. I've been able to put my alias of the trash can
anywhere and it always works just as it should. Maybe its because I'm
on a IIci, but for 4 days now, I have yet to hit a system error or any
form of a crash.
The inits I'm using are disinfectant, MacTCP, Public Folder, Superclock.weave@brahms.udel.edu (Ken Weaverling) (05/19/91)
In article <53047@apple.Apple.COM> robg@Apple.COM (Rob Griffiths) writes: > >System: Mac IIcx, 8/80, extensions disabled at startup (shift key). > Running System 7.0 Golden Master. Miscellaneous hardware > attached is limited to an Apple Data Modem 2400. Virtual > memory is off. > >Situation: I created an alias to the trash can. I dragged this alias >onto the main (root level) window of my hard disk. At this point, I >renamed 'Trash Alias' to 'Trashcan' (The view on my main window is >set to 'by Icon', and my disk contains about 60MB of data, if it makes >any difference...). Well, at least I don't feel like I am going nuts now. I have also had problems with trash can aliases and posted a message a few days about it. I just created a trash can alias, put it in the root window, and renamed it to trash (but with a space before and after the name). When an attempt was made to open the alias, the machine hung. I have been able to reproduce this over and over. My set up is similar to the above set up. Maybe it is limited to Mac II cx's My sys: Mac IIcx 4/80, no extensions installed yet. Running 7.0 golden master. VM was on. Modem attached. -- >>>---> Ken Weaverling >>>----> weave@brahms.udel.edu
philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (05/20/91)
In article <21506@brahms.udel.edu>, weave@brahms.udel.edu (Ken Weaverling) writes: |> Well, at least I don't feel like I am going nuts now. I have also had |> problems with trash can aliases and posted a message a few days about it. |> I just created a trash can alias, put it in the root window, and renamed it |> to trash (but with a space before and after the name). When an attempt was |> made to open the alias, the machine hung. I have been able to reproduce this |> over and over. |> |> My set up is similar to the above set up. Maybe it is limited to Mac II cx's |> |> My sys: Mac IIcx 4/80, no extensions installed yet. Running 7.0 golden |> master. VM was on. Modem attached. At first, I thought the problem didn't exist on my IIcx. I did exactly the above, and all was fine. Then I decided to convert my root window from view by small icon to view by icon. I got the message "There is not enough memory to keep the window <name of my HD> open". A few other Finder commands gave messages saying not enough memory: close some windows or quit some apps. I quickly saved what I was doing and quit. Tried to open a window, mouse froze, no response to interrupt. On reset/restart, I quickly trashed the aliased trash can, and all seems ok (except the positions of the icons in the root window were trashed - I've had this before but can't report specifical circumstances). The only running application at the time was MacX (no DAs either). I hope all this is specific enough to help someone find the bug. -- Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu -- My system: IIcx 8/40, VM off, 2 monitors, ethernet card, Extensions mainly from Easy Install (now easy to get window contents as text - select all and copy): Gatekeeper Gatekeeper Aid AppleShare DAL EtherTalk EtherTalk Phase 2 File Sharing Extension Finder Help LaserWriter MacTCP Tool Network Extension PrintMonitor <ATM PostScript fonts> Control Panels (note that these may also load at startup): After Dark After Dark Files Color Easy Access File Sharing Monitor Gatekeeper Controls General Controls Keyboard Labels MacTCP Map Memory Monitors Mouse Network Sharing Setup Sound Startup Disk Users & Groups Views ATM --
bskendig@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) (05/20/91)
In article <21506@brahms.udel.edu> weave@brahms.udel.edu (Ken Weaverling) writes: >I just created a trash can alias, put it in the root window, and renamed it >to trash (but with a space before and after the name). When an attempt was >made to open the alias, the machine hung. I have been able to reproduce this >over and over. Here's a suggested workaround: don't put a trash can alias in your root window and rename it to " trash "? ;) | Brian S. Kendig \ Macintosh | Engineering, | bskendig | | Computer Engineering |\ Thought | USS Enterprise | @phoenix.Princeton.EDU | Princeton University |_\ Police | -= NCC-1701-D =- | @PUCC.BITNET | "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?"
umduddr0@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Brendan Duddridge) (05/20/91)
In <21506@brahms.udel.edu> weave@brahms.udel.edu (Ken Weaverling) writes: >Well, at least I don't feel like I am going nuts now. I have also had >problems with trash can aliases and posted a message a few days about it. >I just created a trash can alias, put it in the root window, and renamed it >to trash (but with a space before and after the name). When an attempt was >made to open the alias, the machine hung. I have been able to reproduce this >over and over. This may sound like a silly question, but why would you want to make an alias of the trash can? It's so easy to just move the icon over to the trash on the desktop already. Perhaps I'm missing the point. Brendan Duddridge umduddr0@ccu.umanitoba.ca
weave@brahms.udel.edu (Ken Weaverling) (05/20/91)
In article <1991May19.194729.12162@ccu.umanitoba.ca> umduddr0@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Brendan Duddridge) writes: >This may sound like a silly question, but why would you want to make an alias >of the trash can? It's so easy to just move the icon over to the trash on the >desktop already. Perhaps I'm missing the point. If a window from another app is covering the trash can, it's a bit of a pain to trash something from the finder. Admitted, this is easier now since you can just Hide all other layers. Also, you can just open the trash window and leave it open. The trash window will appear on top of other app windows. As far as "well, if it crashes, just don't do it", this is obvious. But if there is a bug that causes the system to crash, no matter how insignificant, it should be looked in to. Sometimes the coding error that caused the small insignificant bug may also cause other problems with more serious actions, that someone may not have done yet. Like I said in a previous post, I am very VERY chuffed with system 7 so far. Hats off to Apple for a job well done! -- >>>---> Ken Weaverling >>>----> weave@brahms.udel.edu
robg@Apple.COM (Rob Griffiths) (05/20/91)
I devoted this morning to exploring the apparent trash alias/cx problem under System 7. First, I went to the office, and checked the fx. Trash alias files worked perfectly, in any window, in any view (on my external startup disk -- I didn't test them on the internal. I'll try that one tomorrow morning). Next, I took home an external drive, and connected it to the cx. If I create a trash alias, and copy it to the external, it works fine. But if I simply take the alias and drag it from the desktop into the root window of the internal disk, troubles ensue. Double clicking on the alias, or dragging anything onto it, will crash the system. Very repeatable, and very un-nerving! As a final step, I thought I would try with a truly clean internal drive. So I copied everything to the external disk, booted with System 7.0 tools disk, and ran disk tools. I then re-initialized, and updated, the internal drive. Next, I re-installed a stripped (minimum configuration) System 7. With just System 7 on the disk, I made an alias to the trash in the root level window. Same problems! So whatever the trouble is, it seems to be (a) restricted to the cx, and (b) not avoidable (other than by not making aliases to the trash!). On the plus side, re-formatting the disk fixed my icon problems! "Strange things were afoot at the Circle-K..." -rob. -- /---------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | R. Griffiths | "Those who make peaceful resolution impossible | | Apple Computer, Inc. | will make violent revolution inevitable" JFK | |----------------------| | | PP-ASEL(Glider soon) | "Of course you realize this means war!" Bugs Bunny | \---------------------------------------------------------------------------/
2fmlcalls@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (05/20/91)
In article <1991May19.232727.21121@neon.Stanford.EDU>, philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) writes: > While we're on the subject of bugs ... Every now and then, the watch And, continuing the subject of bugs.... On my IIsi, sometimes the 'size' number in the upper left corner of the windows doesn't update properly. If you do a bunch of icon dragging to the trash real fast and then rush into something else, you lose the size or it rewrites the size right over the old size (giving an unreadable jumble of number). Apparantly updates aren't qued (I know, but I tried a half dozen other spellings and it still looked wrong). BTW, I have turned off trash warnings if that makes a difference. john calhoun
philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (05/20/91)
In article <53089@apple.Apple.COM>, robg@Apple.COM (Rob Griffiths) writes: |> I devoted this morning to exploring the apparent trash alias/cx problem |> under System 7. While we're on the subject of bugs ... Every now and then, the watch cursor gets trashed. I haven't pinned down the exact situation yet (obviously, it's only noticeable at the point you do something needing the watch cursor). So far, this hasn't caused any crashes, but is usually a symptom of a memory management bug. I'm running too much stuff (MacX using MacTCP mainly, but this is a lot to start with) to pin this down. Has anyone else had this? It only happens in the Finder, and usually goes away after a while. My system: IIcx 8/40, Asante ethernet; exact symptom: watch cursor (not the animated one - the ordinary one) becomes a vauge blob. Despite these problems, I still say 7 is more stable than 6.0.7 - not bad for such a major rewrite. It even fixed some long-standing bugs in Backgammon, which is about 5 years old. -- Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (05/20/91)
In article <1991May19.210746.30908@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, 2fmlcalls@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: |> In article <1991May19.232727.21121@neon.Stanford.EDU>, philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) writes: |> > While we're on the subject of bugs ... Every now and then, the watch |> |> And, continuing the subject of bugs.... |> |> On my IIsi, sometimes the 'size' number in the upper left corner of the windows |> doesn't update properly. If you do a bunch of icon dragging to the trash real |> fast and then rush into something else, you lose the size or it rewrites the |> size right over the old size (giving an unreadable jumble of number). This is repeatable on my IIcx (you mean "right corner" of course). Yet another one: something similar happens in the Scrapbook. Paste in something containing more than one resource type (e.g., an icon you can copy from the Get Info window), then scroll to an item without such a long list of resource types. The previous long list of resource types at the bottom of the Scrapbook window doesn't erase. I hope someone at Apple is noting these. Do we get a free copy of 7.0.1 by e-mail if we report enough bugs? -- Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
jyp@wucs1.wustl.edu (Jerome Yvon Plun) (05/20/91)
In article <1991May19.210746.30908@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> 2fmlcalls@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: >In article <1991May19.232727.21121@neon.Stanford.EDU>, philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) writes: >> While we're on the subject of bugs ... Every now and then, the watch > >And, continuing the subject of bugs.... > >On my IIsi, sometimes the 'size' number in the upper left corner of the windows >doesn't update properly. If you do a bunch of icon dragging to the trash real >fast and then rush into something else, you lose the size or it rewrites the >size right over the old size (giving an unreadable jumble of number). >Apparantly updates aren't qued (I know, but I tried a half dozen other >spellings and it still looked wrong). > >BTW, I have turned off trash warnings if that makes a difference. > >john calhoun I encountered the same problem on a IIfx. I didn't pay attention to the processing taking place but every time the update didn't take place, I was dealing with a lots of files (like the fonts in the System). I think I got the problem with view by Icons or Small Icons. Jerome Plun Jerome Plun [] Is it a crime to want something else? jyp@wucs1.wustl.edu [] Is it a crime to believe in something different? Washington University [] St Louis, MO [] "Smalltown England", New Model Army, Vengeance
tisu@quads.uchicago.edu (Seth Tisue) (05/21/91)
In article <1991May19.232727.21121@neon.Stanford.EDU> philip@pescadero.stanford.edu writes: >While we're on the subject of bugs ... Every now and then, the watch >cursor gets trashed. I haven't pinned down the exact situation yet (obviously, >it's only noticeable at the point you do something needing the watch cursor). I've had this problem too. Exactly one frame of the watch cursor gets turned into garbage. This is on an SE/30, System 7.0 Golden, 2MB Ram, 1MB Virtual, and some of the usual INITs. So far the problem has only occurred when I have recently been using Microsoft Word 4.00C, which may be the culprit. In any case, it hasn't caused any non-cosmetic problems... yet. -- ---- Seth Tisue USMail: c/o Plaster Cramp Press ---- (tisu@midway.uchicago.edu) P.O. Box 5975 "Please to be restful. It is only a few Chicago IL 60680 crazies who have from the crazy place outbroken." --------------
Timothy.Allen@dartmouth.edu (Timothy Allen) (05/21/91)
In article <1991May19.210746.30908@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> 2fmlcalls@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: > sometimes the 'size' number in the upper left corner of the windows > doesn't update properly. If you do a bunch of icon dragging to the trash real > fast and then rush into something else, you lose the size or it rewrites the > size right over the old size (giving an unreadable jumble of number). I have also seen this once on my Mac SE. Closing the window and then reopening causes the info to be updated properly. Another problem I've encountered - sometimes, the finder won't let me eject a floppy disk. I choose eject disk or type command-e and the disk spits out, but as soon as it does, I get one of those annoying disk swap alerts asking me to insert the disk. I tried typing command-period, and I got a message saying that the mac couldn't work with the disk because it wasn't physically mounted in any drive (and then the disk icon disappeared from the desktop as it would have if I had dismounted the disk by dragging it to the trash). This doesn't happen all the time, but when it does - how are you to make a floppy to floppy copy on a one floppy drive system (without using your hard disk as an intermediary)? Yeah, I wish I could afford a second floppy drive.... tim.allen@dartmouth.edu
barry@network.ucsd.edu (Barry Brown) (05/22/91)
In article <1991May19.194729.12162@ccu.umanitoba.ca> umduddr0@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Brendan Duddridge) writes: >This may sound like a silly question, but why would you want to make an alias >of the trash can? It's so easy to just move the icon over to the trash on the >desktop already. Perhaps I'm missing the point. Users with large monitors may want to alias the Trash several times and put the aliases in strategic locations (say, the other corners) around the screen. Then they won't have to drag icons as far in order to trash them. -- Barry E. Brown -- \ Cal-Animage Beta publicity officer bebrown@ucsd.{edu,uucp,bitnet} \ Anime Stuff FTP Server administrator Somewhere in San Diego, CA..... \ (ftp network.ucsd.edu [128.54.16.3]) "Kaeshite! Kaeshite! Kaeshitekaeshitekaeshite! -- Azusa (Ranma 1/2)