kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) (05/15/91)
bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) writes: >According to someone else, apple.apple.com was getting 5-10 FTP's a >*MINUTE* looking for the elusive 7.0. >(Note: it ain't there, see ftp.apple.com instead. Several of us use >apple.apple.com for "work purposes" so please don't pig our machine >too much, OK?) Apple brought this upon themselves by not seeing that _every_ dealer had a copy of the golden master _well before_ the alleged May 13 release date. How can they start making set of at least 7 disks without some lead time? We will apparently not have a copy here until May 15 (at the earliest). -- ...kiran __________kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu________(812) 331-1710 _Still_ waiting for System 7.........
jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) (05/15/91)
In article <kiran.674253733@copper> kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) writes: >bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) writes: > >>According to someone else, apple.apple.com was getting 5-10 FTP's a >>*MINUTE* looking for the elusive 7.0. > >>(Note: it ain't there, see ftp.apple.com instead. Several of us use >>apple.apple.com for "work purposes" so please don't pig our machine >>too much, OK?) > >Apple brought this upon themselves by not seeing that _every_ dealer >had a copy of the golden master _well before_ the alleged May 13 >release date. How can they start making set of at least 7 disks >without some lead time? We will apparently not have a copy here >until May 15 (at the earliest). > Do you think this would change dealers' willingness to copy disks for users? Also, Apple made their deadline, which is pretty impressive considering that the golden master wasn't finalized until pretty much the last minute. I am also impatiently waiting for System 7, but I don't think it's fair to blame Apple for the fact that not everyone who wants it has it already. They'd like that too, don't you think? jas -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey A. Sullivan | Senior Systems Programmer jas@venera.isi.edu | Information Sciences Institute jas@isi.edu | University of Southern California
kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) (05/15/91)
jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) writes: >I am also impatiently waiting for System 7, but I don't think it's >fair to blame Apple for the fact that not everyone who wants it has it >already. They'd like that too, don't you think? Who else is there to blame? They've been shipping upgrade kits, so at least some disk copying is being done. Sending 7 disks to each of their dealers by overnight mail doesn't seem so unreasonable to me, nor does selling sumex &c licences to distribute the software, for say, $1 or so. But Apple still hasn't got the hang of being a mass marketer, even with that guy from Pepsi in charge. -- ...kiran __________kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu________(812) 331-1710 _Still_ waiting for System 7.........
jackb@MDI.COM (Jack Brindle) (05/16/91)
In article <kiran.674316022@copper> kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) writes: >jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) writes: > >>I am also impatiently waiting for System 7, but I don't think it's >>fair to blame Apple for the fact that not everyone who wants it has it >>already. They'd like that too, don't you think? > >Who else is there to blame? They've been shipping upgrade kits, so at >least some disk copying is being done. Sending 7 disks to each of >their dealers by overnight mail doesn't seem so unreasonable to me, >nor does selling sumex &c licences to distribute the software, for >say, $1 or so. But Apple still hasn't got the hang of being a mass >marketer, even with that guy from Pepsi in charge. Remember, the larger chains handle distribution themselves. So, Apple ships product to the company's warehouse, who ships it to the individual dealers (or other warehouses then to dealers). I wonder if some of these stores will have System 7 by the END of the month... Jack Brindle ham radio: wa4fib/7
bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) (05/16/91)
kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) writes: |Who else is there to blame? They've been shipping upgrade kits, so at |least some disk copying is being done. Sending 7 disks to each of |their dealers by overnight mail doesn't seem so unreasonable to me, |nor does selling sumex &c licences to distribute the software, for |say, $1 or so. But Apple still hasn't got the hang of being a mass |marketer, even with that guy from Pepsi in charge. I don't think it's fair to "blame" anyone when Apple DID TAKE ALL THE STEPS YOU DEMAND so rudely, and the simple answer is that System 7.0 should (should should) be almost everywhere in the continental US THIS WEEK Does that seem fair to you? As for mass marketing, consider that the average markup of all items in a grocery store is about 2%. (Source: Safeway) Since some items like batteries and vitamins have much larger markups, imagine what the markup on eggs and milk is. Now, try to get ANY computer store to run on that kind of markup. When you do, come talk to Apple about a job. In the mean time, why don't you call your dealer and see if it's there yet. Sheesh. bill coderre frankly a little amazed at this "something for nothing" attitude
bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) (05/16/91)
In article <52920@apple.Apple.COM> bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) writes: |I don't think it's fair to "blame" anyone when Apple DID TAKE ALL THE |STEPS YOU DEMAND so rudely, and the simple answer is that System 7.0 |should (should should) be almost everywhere in the continental US | | THIS WEEK | |Does that seem fair to you? I wanted to publicly emend this posting before it started a major flamewar. I certainly do understand that y'all are very impatient for System 7. I understand your frustrations and excitement. I also understand how hard it is to wait an extra month-or-two for the localized versions. But I do want all of you to understand that Apple is working as hard as it can to get things out as fast as humanly possible. Every copy that you get from your dealer was probably shipped the very night before. Unlike other companies, Apple didn't hold up the product in the major cities to wait for the copies in the less-major cities, for example. Apple cannot make the planes fly any faster, nor coerce the truck drivers to drive any faster. They HAVE made the duplication mills run faster, and many employees have VOLUNTEERED to work later, faster, and harder to get System 7 out to you all. Overseas, the internationalization folks are working ridiculous hours (especially considering that in order to phone Cupertino at Noon, they have to call in the middle of the night) to get completely customized versions ready as fast as humanly possible. NOTE WELL: Please also understand that it's mostly the efforts of a tiny handful of people that are going to make FTP service happen. They are doing it NOT because they are paid to, but because THEY WANT TO. bill coderre And if your programs are as good, I'll be proud of you too.
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) (05/16/91)
I think that clearly, apple would like to sell $99 upgrade kits, since it makes profits for the corporation. Also, apple needs to put system 7.0 disks into hardware boxes ASAP so that they don't lose more money mailing 7.0 to people purchasing new hardware. If apple sends every dealer three disks, then every user will get the software for free, and apple will sell absolutely ZERO system 7.0 upgrade kits. That's why apple doesn't Fed-X floppies to every dealer in the USA. It takes money and time make shrink-wrap boxes, which must account for about $70 to the $99 price. I'd be willing to pay $35 for a new manual, non shrink-wrapped (as long as it's better than most of apple's current documentation). But $99 is too much for a manual, especially apple manuals, which omit critical information like "What are the secret function keys?" or "How do I print a postscript file on a non-apple printer?" or "How do I customize my finder?" It's too bad that Apple doesn't take its market share and price competitiveness more seriously. I guess the recent hardware price drops were more of a cruel joke than a true shift in corporate strategy. I predict that many people will buy 3rd-party manuals or rely on magazines instead of getting the apple documention, because of this shortsighted marketing move. --
lsr@Apple.com (Larry Rosenstein) (05/16/91)
In article <1991May15.205525.19265@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) writes: > > I think that clearly, apple would like to sell $99 upgrade kits, since > it makes profits for the corporation. Also, apple needs to put system > 7.0 disks into hardware boxes ASAP so that they don't lose more money > mailing 7.0 to people purchasing new hardware. The other side of the coin is that Apple wants to make sure System 7 upgrades go smoothly, so they are trying to encourage people to buy the upgrade kit, rather than just getting the diskettes. I doubt that Apple expects to make a lot of money on upgrade kits, when you consider the cost of the packaging, toll-free support, etc. > I'd be willing to pay $35 for a new manual, non shrink-wrapped (as > long as it's better than most of apple's current documentation). But > $99 is too much for a manual, especially apple manuals, which omit You get a lot more than a manual for $99. Perhaps the upgrade kit isn't worth $99 to you, in which case there are alternatives like user groups. > critical information like "What are the secret function keys?" or "How > do I print a postscript file on a non-apple printer?" or "How do I I think you will find that these kinds of questions are now addressed to a greater degree. > I predict that many people will buy 3rd-party manuals or rely on > magazines instead of getting the apple documention, because of this > shortsighted marketing move. That's fine. I don't think Apple cares how people upgrade their systems, as long as it is successful.
bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) (05/16/91)
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) writes: |I think that clearly, apple would like to sell $99 upgrade kits, since |it makes profits for the corporation. Also, apple needs to put system |7.0 disks into hardware boxes ASAP so that they don't lose more money |mailing 7.0 to people purchasing new hardware. OK gang, settle down for Marketing 101. Ever heard of a "loss leader"? It's a product a company sells at a loss to gain sales of other products. In this case, Apple hopes to sell System 7 at a tiny margin over its cost so that you will be a happy, satisfied, knowledgeable System 7 user, tell all your friends, and get them to buy Macs. But wait, I can see hands in the back already: "But, that must only cost them, oh, 60 or 70 cents a disk, and a coupla bucks for paper..." Yeah, i get the point. And the human body contains about $0.67 worth of raw materials too. Products have what is called a "standard cost" which basically accounts for the total cost of the product -- the marginal cost, which is the disks and paper, PLUS the toll free tech support, PLUS the product development costs, PLUS the manual developement costs, PLUS the tech support development costs. The "standard cost" is usually much higher than the marginal cost. No big surprise here. For instance, the "standard cost" of a 21 year old computer hacker exceeds $100K -- food, schooling, medical, and Macintoshes are all standard costs for this creature. Oh wait, there's still someone complaining. "But that's still gotta be far less than $99." Well, that's probably true, but then you have to figure in the "channel costs" -- the distribution costs PLUS the DEALER PROFIT. The dealers are entitled to make some money off this, after all, if you buy from a dealer, you get his/her help installing, and the wonderful experience of his plush carpeting. Probably a nice big, environmentally-unsound plastic bag, too. Chances are, the dealer makes more than Apple on these upgrades. |If apple sends every dealer three disks, then every user will get the |software for free, and apple will sell absolutely ZERO system 7.0 |upgrade kits. That's why apple doesn't Fed-X floppies to every dealer |in the USA. It takes money and time make shrink-wrap boxes, which |must account for about $70 to the $99 price. No, you're way off base. Plenty of users like nice manuals and Toll Free Tech Support enough to wanna pay $99 for the whole set. And Apple DID FedEx disks to each reseller, which then took its own sweet time distributing them to stores. And it IS AOK to copy the disks and use them, providing your dealer is a swell dude, and lets you. He is not required to. He is also not required to sell anything to you, but if he doesn't, he won't be able to keep renting his carpet, now will he. End of Marketing 101 |I'd be willing to pay $35 for a new manual, non shrink-wrapped (as |long as it's better than most of apple's current documentation). But |$99 is too much for a manual, especially apple manuals, which omit |critical information like "What are the secret function keys?" or "How |do I print a postscript file on a non-apple printer?" or "How do I |customize my finder?" It's too bad that Apple doesn't take its market |share and price competitiveness more seriously. I guess the recent |hardware price drops were more of a cruel joke than a true shift in |corporate strategy. Gee, I found all those answers pretty quickly, but when you pay $99, you get MORE than just a manual. You get Toll Free Tech Support, which gives you the opportunity to call and ask questions to a human being as often as you want for 90 days after you first call, for as long as Apple continues the service, which I think is at least a year or so. There are plenty of manuals for System 7 available from other companies for less than $35 (I know of about two so far, and they should be hitting store shelves someday soon). If you would rather go that route, and save $64, and not get dealer support, and not get Toll Free Tech Support, that's AOK with Apple. They'll even STILL let you listen to the pre-recorded help messages for the price of the call (ie. FREE if you are in the local Cupertino calling area -- and the phone company gets all the money), and even still let you talk to a human being for $2/minute, of which the phone company gets half, remember. |I predict that many people will buy 3rd-party manuals or rely on |magazines instead of getting the apple documention, because of this |shortsighted marketing move. Considering the basic flaws in your argument, I can't agree. Apple is not interested in discouraging people from installing System 7. Nor are they interested in people having trouble with installing System 7. They are much more interested in getting as many people to use and understand the product as possible, so that they can go around with big, happy smiles on their faces, and tell all their DOS buddies just what they're missing. If you buy a $99 upgrade, you stand a very high chance of being happy. This is because your dealer and Apple will both provide you with support -- answer your questions, help resolve problems, and even help set the computer up and teach you how to use it. By making you happy, giving you powerful new tools, and supporting you, Apple knows that you will be a very satisfied customer and might buy more Macs, or convince your friends to. So far, they've been right. More people buy Macs again than any other kind of personal computer. Now, as far as usenet people, I imagine a vast majority will buy disks from a user group (appx $25), or borrow them from friends. They may or may not buy a manual (appx $30). Therefore, their total cost is anywhere from $0 to $55. They also won't get Toll Free support from Apple, but might get some from the user group. They might or might not have troubles installing or using the system. But that's their choice and Apple doesn't mind that they wanna be stingy and not get the support. Now tell me, does Windows 3.0 give you anywhere NEAR as much support for the money? Do they let you copy it for free? And, do they provide the features you need with an interface that's fun to use? If you think so, save yourself some money and buy a cheap PC clone. Apple won't mind. They'll make the next model even better, for an even better price. That's the American Capitalist Pig EcoFascist way, and I'm proud of it. bill coderre very much in agreement with Apple's Evil Plan
philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (05/16/91)
In article <52943@apple.Apple.COM>, bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) writes: |> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) writes: |> Now tell me, does Windows 3.0 give you anywhere NEAR as much support |> for the money? Do they let you copy it for free? [...] |> very much in agreement with Apple's Evil Plan Apple deserves to get bashed for the 32-bit clean ROM issue, but I must agree with you on System 7 upgrades. I've owned 4 Macs over the last few years, and I've never been forced to _pay_ for the many system software upgrades I've had. Maybe if we cut the volume of stupid complaints we stand a better chance of being heard on the issues that matter. I've been using System 7 all day, and no matter whether you pick it up free from a friend or pay for the manuals and *12* disks (how much is your time worth to copy that many yourself anyway?), it's a great deal. -- Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
umh@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (05/16/91)
In article <52923@apple.Apple.COM>, bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) writes: > In article <52920@apple.Apple.COM> bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) writes: > |I don't think it's fair to "blame" anyone when Apple DID TAKE ALL THE > |STEPS YOU DEMAND so rudely, and the simple answer is that System 7.0 > |should (should should) be almost everywhere in the continental US > | > | THIS WEEK > | > |Does that seem fair to you? This is wasting bandwidth, but I feel obliged to thank Apple. I called my local dealers (Baka computer- a great little company) at 8.30 Monday morning, then went over at about 10.00 to pick up system 7.0. They gave me a manual free copy, charging me a nominal fee for the duplication computer time. I went home and installed it and it is wonderful. All parties involved have performed in an exemplary fashion- thanks people. Maynard Handley
Jim.Spencer@p510.f22.n282.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Spencer) (05/18/91)
Kiran Wagle writes in a message to All KW> Apple brought this upon themselves by not seeing that _every_ KW> dealer had a copy of the golden master _well before_ the alleged KW> May 13 release date. How can they start making set of at least KW> 7 disks without some lead time? We will apparently not have a KW> copy here until May 15 (at the earliest). NO. Apple brought this on by not announcing a policy of requiring everyone to purchase an upgrade package like most manufacturers would. I really wish everyone would stop their beefing. Is it really that big a disaster that you might have to wait from May 13 to May 15, two lousy days, for this? * Origin: White Mailer Test Point (1.0d6) (1:282/22.510)
amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) (05/19/91)
In article <17937@venera.isi.edu> jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) writes:
Also, Apple made their deadline, which is pretty impressive
considering that the golden master wasn't finalized until pretty much
the last minute.
I was especially amused about the running gags about this during the
WWDC on Monday morning. Every now and then a slide would come up with
"System 7.0 timeline," showing the minutes until the ship date. Then,
after 11AM, announcing the "official" start of the WWDC, since they
promised at the 1990 WWDC that it would be shipping before the 1991
WWDC...
Also, the System 7.0 developer CD brings new meaning to "Golden" :).
--
Amanda Walker amanda@visix.com
Visix Software Inc. ...!uunet!visix!amanda
--
"I can only assume this is not the first-class compartment."
--The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxyamanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) (05/19/91)
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) writes:
If apple sends every dealer three disks, then every user will get the
software for free, and apple will sell absolutely ZERO system 7.0
upgrade kits.
I have to disagree with you on this. The 12 (not 3) disks are not the
main value in the upgrade kit. If I hadn't had one included in my
$800 WWDC fee, I would have bought one at the full $99 price. Yes,
I'm a Mac propellerhead from way back (I have a Guy Kawasaki Special
copy of Inside Mac, for instance), but it's worth it just for the
documentation. Some three *inches* of it. Reading through it Monday
night in my hotel room, I found out stuff about System 7 that I hadn't
noticed in more than a year of working with beta versions.
The new manuals are a tremendous improvement, and gather together a lot
of information that used to be scattered about and very hard for
non-developers to find.
But $99 is too much for a manual, especially apple manuals, which
omit critical information like "What are the secret function keys?"
or "How do I print a postscript file on a non-apple printer?" or
"How do I customize my finder?"
Perhaps you should actually look at the new manuals before you pass
judgement.
I guess the recent hardware price drops were more of a cruel joke
than a true shift in corporate strategy.
Dropping prices for hardware is a cruel joke? This must be a usage of
"cruel" that I am unfamiliar with...
I predict that many people will buy 3rd-party manuals or rely on
magazines instead of getting the apple documention, because of this
shortsighted marketing move.
Again, perhaps you should actually look at the new manuals before you
pass judgement. I, for one, predict that third party manuals will
become much harder to write, because of the increased depth of the
Apple manuals.
Now, if only application developers will follow Apple's example...
--
Amanda Walker amanda@visix.com
Visix Software Inc. ...!uunet!visix!amanda
--
"Never mud-wrestle with a pig. You get dirty... and the pig loves it!"
--Appalachian Proverbkenh@eclectic.COM (Ken Hancock) (05/21/91)
In article <52920@apple.Apple.COM> bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) writes: >kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) writes: >|Who else is there to blame? They've been shipping upgrade kits, so at >|least some disk copying is being done. Sending 7 disks to each of >|their dealers by overnight mail doesn't seem so unreasonable to me, >|nor does selling sumex &c licences to distribute the software, for >|say, $1 or so. But Apple still hasn't got the hang of being a mass >|marketer, even with that guy from Pepsi in charge. > >I don't think it's fair to "blame" anyone when Apple DID TAKE ALL THE >STEPS YOU DEMAND so rudely, and the simple answer is that System 7.0 >should (should should) be almost everywhere in the continental US Bill, Mark, Chuq, & Apple Co. -- I really don't envy your position. Because you spend your free time on UseNet and happen to have an address at apple.com, you get all the ignorant folks jumping on you for everything from System 7.0 not delivered free to someone's door to someone's copy of application XYZ crashing. Is it just me, or is it somehow overly difficult to comprehend that you folks aren't responsible for any evils that I think Apple might be doing? Also, I guess I must be missing something, since everyone else thinks by lambasting you guys that you'll be more helpful to them in the future. Guess I'm just confused. To the whiners -- Isn't it nice to have people from apple.com to pick on? I remember back in 3rd grade when we used to single out other kids to pick on and take out all our problems on. Doesn't it just feel wonderful to act like third-graders again? Guess we should be starting a call for alt.adults.going.on.eight.years.old newsgroup. Ken P.S. Feel free to flame away, but don't waste net.bandwidth. Use mail. -- Ken Hancock | INTERNET: kenh@eclectic.com Isle Systems | Compuserve: >INTERNET: kenh@eclectic.com Macintosh Consulting | AOL: KHancock | Disclaimer: My opinions are mine, | your opinions are yours. Simple, isn't it?
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (05/22/91)
In article <166@eclectic.COM> kenh@eclectic.COM (Ken Hancock) writes: >Isn't it nice to have people from apple.com to pick on? I remember >back in 3rd grade when we used to single out other kids to pick on >and take out all our problems on. Doesn't it just feel wonderful >to act like third-graders again? Guess we should be starting >a call for alt.adults.going.on.eight.years.old newsgroup. Yeah, it is nice to have folks from Apple to pick on. I for one appreciate it very much. I'm glad they feel the way they do about their work and that is a big reason I own a Mac. It is a vain hope of mine that Apple appreciates the work their unofficial reps do here, but my guess is that it is barely acknowledged, if that. If people get hot about their machines when they don't work as expected, you can blame it on the marketing materials Apple produces. We pay premium prices for a machine and then don't even get some of the promised features. A computer is a dynamic tool, one that is expected to expand at need, to some extent anyway. (As an aside to all those who love to spew that stupid car metaphor: I dearly wish you'd stop.) Apple's interest should not stop when the cash register's drawer has closed. A drowning person may not appreciate the volunteer lifeguard's work at the] moment, but you can be sure they appreciate it the rest of the time. >P.S. Feel free to flame away, but don't waste net.bandwidth. Use mail. You MUST be joking. You fire off a flame of "whiners" publicly and then expect private responses. Well, I'll have to admit, the notion is worth a chuckle or two. >Ken Hancock | INTERNET: kenh@eclectic.com >Isle Systems | Compuserve: >INTERNET: kenh@eclectic.com >Macintosh Consulting | AOL: KHancock ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sounds like someone is hoping to end up in Cupertino.
bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) (05/22/91)
Allen Wessels: |A computer is a dynamic tool, one that is expected to expand at need, to some |extent anyway. (As an aside to all those who love to spew that stupid car |metaphor: I dearly wish you'd stop.) Apple's interest should not stop when the |cash register's drawer has closed. If you bought a Plus in 1986, and you've upgraded it with memory and hard drive, you can run System 7. Apple's interest does not stop when the cash register drawer is closed. Any further questions? bill coderre who works for a better computer company than you do
kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) (05/22/91)
>kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle (me)) writes: >|Who else is there to blame? They've been shipping upgrade kits, so at >|least some disk copying is being done. Sending 7 disks to each of >|their dealers by overnight mail doesn't seem so unreasonable to me, >|nor does selling sumex &c licences to distribute the software, for >|say, $1 or so. But Apple still hasn't got the hang of being a mass >|marketer, even with that guy from Pepsi in charge. bc@apple.com (Bill Coderre) writes: >I don't think it's fair to "blame" anyone when Apple DID TAKE ALL THE >STEPS YOU DEMAND so rudely, and the simple answer is that System 7.0 Sorry if this seemed rude. The previous poster had said that we shouldn't blame Apple. I was trying to point out that there was no one else _to_ blame, _not_ that we should blame Apple. I didn't realise that Sumex & al had been sold cheap licences to distribute the system, I'll check there. -- ...kiran __________kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu________(812) 331-1710 From the corrections column in a July Fresno, CA _Bee_: "An item in Thursday's [issue] about the Massachusetts budget crisis made reference to new taxes that will help put Massachusetts 'back in the African-American.' The item should have said 'back in the black.'"