pnm@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Paul BIG-EARS Menon) (05/21/91)
hi,
Gripe 1:
My Rodime 200Mb drive doesn't talk to me any more! I formatted
the thing just for Sys 7, then upgraded the driver and wham! that's
the last I've heard from it. The Mac refuses to boot with it on the
SCSI bus (Sad Mac Error code 0F, SubCode 01, and some lovely music).
I can't reformat the critter, nothing, grrrr!
Gripe 2:
This VM restriction on removable cartridges could be one reason
why we will stop acquiring Macs. Removable media is the only way
we can allow students to use local HDs on Mac IIs without risk of
viruses (They can then be responsible for their own data). memory
hungry System 7.0, in its wisdom has decided not to allow VM (swap)
on this type of media. The dangers of having swap on removable
media can be easily obviated. This simplistic solution will not do!
I'd like to hear of a solution soon, or else. This is no threat,
this is reality speaking. No, file serving will not do either.
We want connectivity, not dependency.
Gripe 3:
Yep, I tried the whizz bang attention grabbing,
make-an-alias-of-yer-disk-and-access-it-from-anywhere trick. Too
bad it wasn't tested thoroughly. I just happened to use it on
a machine with a hard disk of the same name, and guess what? Yup,
it opened the local disk! Now, it may have been that the (equivalent
of) chooser name was the same as well, but wow, you'd think it
wouldn't be that simple to fool.
Gripe 4:
We use communications a lot here => we use MacTCP. System 7 is not
System 7 until MacTCP is VM and 32 bit clean. I could forgive
some poor 3rd party developer, but Apple??
Gripe 5:
A new 8.24GC driver - VM and 32 bit clean - when?
Gripe 6:
A small 3rd party developer - delays may be acceptable, Symantec? no.
90% compatible? Is that like being 90% a virgin? Who thought of
the number 90?
There are two outstanding features of System 7 which everyone has been
itching for, VM and 32 bit clean functionality. Neither Apple or
Symantec have come clean on this.
It isn't as though System 7 was a surprise to everyone, so why didn't
folks get it right? You wanted time, you got it.
Right now, to me, System 7.0 is unusable.
Oh well, I guess I can look at the pretty icons... someone did a spiffy
job.
Paul Menon,
Dept of Computer Science,
Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology,
124 Latrobe Street,
Melbourne 3001,
Victoria, Australia.
pnm@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au
PH: +61 3 660 3209dwal@ellis.uchicago.edu (David Walton) (05/22/91)
In article <5878@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au> pnm@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Paul BIG-EARS Menon) writes: [lots of stuff deleted at various points] > Gripe 2: > This VM restriction on removable cartridges could be one reason > why we will stop acquiring Macs. Removable media is the only way > we can allow students to use local HDs on Mac IIs without risk of > viruses (They can then be responsible for their own data). memory > hungry System 7.0, in its wisdom has decided not to allow VM (swap) > on this type of media. The dangers of having swap on removable > media can be easily obviated. This simplistic solution will not do! > I'd like to hear of a solution soon, or else. This is no threat, > this is reality speaking. I'm not sure that the problem is as simple as you think. Perhaps from a theoretical standpoint, yes. But I think System 7 team investigated the possibility of error trapping for VM on removable media, and found that the only difference they could make was to have the machine simply hang instead of showing a bomb. This could be wrong; I only heard part of the response. Perhaps somebody who was also at the System software feedback session at the Developer's Conference can correct me. BTW, virus problems, in contrast, ARE easily obviated. It's called GateKeeper. Or Disinfectant. We've been using GK/GKA in our public clusters for some time now, and have had almost no problems with viruses. Using removable media is an innovative solution to the problem, but I simply won't buy that it's the only effective way to guard against viruses. > There are two outstanding features of System 7 which everyone has been > itching for, VM and 32 bit clean functionality. Neither Apple or > Symantec have come clean on this. For you, perhaps. I've been waiting for 1) Dynamic Apple menu; 2) Aliases; 3) BetterFinder (tm); 4) File sharing; and 5) TrueType. In that order. From a programming standpoint, the most important things to me were the Edition Manager and all the neato IAC stuff. I do use Virtual Memory, and I'm disappointed that MacTCP isn't compatible with it (although I'm still using both and I've yet to see a crash). But I also think that if Apple had waited for every single one of their drivers to be compatible with 7.0 before shipping it, the whole market might have migrated to Windows 6.2 on 786 machines by the time it came out. :-) > Right now, to me, System 7.0 is unusable. I'm sorry to hear that. But I really don't have much sympathy if you're simply not using it because you can't use Virtual Memory and because the Finder doesn't correctly resolve aliases between identically named local and remote hard disks. > Oh well, I guess I can look at the pretty icons... someone did a spiffy > job. With the icons and with a lot of other things as well. > Paul Menon, -- David Walton Internet: dwal@midway.uchicago.edu University of Chicago { Any opinions found herein are mine, not } Computing Organizations { those of my employers (or anybody else). }
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (05/22/91)
In article <5878@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au> pnm@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Paul BIG-EARS Menon) writes: >hi, > Gripe 1: > My Rodime 200Mb drive doesn't talk to me any more! I formatted > the thing just for Sys 7, then upgraded the driver and wham! that's > the last I've heard from it. The Mac refuses to boot with it on the > SCSI bus (Sad Mac Error code 0F, SubCode 01, and some lovely music). > I can't reformat the critter, nothing, grrrr! Turn it off. Boot the mac with system 6.05. Turn it on--- DO NOT attempt to mount it, the driver is corrrupt and will cause a crash. Run the old Rodime utility, and re-format. Then you can try for System 7 again.. (0F 01 is just a bus error-- the mac tried to execute the driver and crashed) > Gripe 2: > This VM restriction on removable cartridges could be one reason > why we will stop acquiring Macs. Removable media is the only way > we can allow students to use local HDs on Mac IIs without risk of > viruses (They can then be responsible for their own data). memory > hungry System 7.0, in its wisdom has decided not to allow VM (swap) > on this type of media. The dangers of having swap on removable > media can be easily obviated. This simplistic solution will not do! > I'd like to hear of a solution soon, or else. This is no threat, > this is reality speaking. No, file serving will not do either. > We want connectivity, not dependency. This looks like a major complaint. Bet we see an extension to mark removables as 'non-removeable' and start VM on them soon. Send me a removable and I'll write it :-). -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
pnm@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Paul BIG-EARS Menon) (05/22/91)
In article <1991May22.011214.10977@midway.uchicago.edu>, dwal@ellis.uchicago.edu (David Walton) writes: ... > simply hang instead of showing a bomb. This could be wrong; I only > heard part of the response. Perhaps somebody who was also at the > System software feedback session at the Developer's Conference can > correct me. > > BTW, virus problems, in contrast, ARE easily obviated. It's called > GateKeeper. Or Disinfectant. We've been using GK/GKA in our public > clusters for some time now, and have had almost no problems with > viruses. Using removable media is an innovative solution to the > problem, but I simply won't buy that it's the only effective way to > guard against viruses. I'm not sure what sort of users you have, but GateKeeper does not stand up to an intentional (or unintentional) hostile user, ie, one who goes out of his/her way to wreak misery upon subsequent users of a Mac with a hard disk. There is no way to protect others from malicious users apart from giving them the responsibility of their own media. Unless they are dorks, they will not rearrange the face of a disk if it means they're the only ones who will suffer. I'm not only talking about virii here, rearranging/deleting setup files etc (customising) on a HD just to satisfy one user makes life tough for another. GateKeeper does not stop this. Yes, there are ways to circumvent most "protectors of the peace". What we are hoping for is to have a "library" of removable media for loan (basically System disks with swap), which get "sterilised" upon return (ie - re-format, or overwrite the whole disk from a master). The "borrowers" (students) can do what they like while they have the cartridge, customise it, whatever. They use floppies (or file servers) for their own data. Applications are on File Servers or on the disk. The beauty of this scheme is that they can count on it being CLEAN, and identical to previously borrowed "books". No scribble marks, no graffiti, no terminal diseases - guaranteed! No other mechanism can guarantee this right now! The keyword here is... "GUARANTEE" I'd love to be proved wrong here, so please respond if you have any leads... Please note that System 7 cannot be run effectively on a floppy, so a R/W hard disk is necessary. Let's not talk about Etherware (AppleShare 3.0) yet, as I've said before, we don't want to be totally dependent on file servers either (connectivity, not dependency). Besides, I'd love to see how Apple would respond to having swap on a file server if they don't want it on a removable cartridge |;-)... > For you, perhaps. I've been waiting for 1) Dynamic Apple menu; 2) > Aliases; 3) BetterFinder (tm); 4) File sharing; and 5) TrueType. In > that order. From a programming standpoint, the most important things > to me were the Edition Manager and all the neato IAC stuff. I do use > Virtual Memory, and I'm disappointed that MacTCP isn't compatible with > it (although I'm still using both and I've yet to see a crash). But I > also think that if Apple had waited for every single one of their > drivers to be compatible with 7.0 before shipping it, the whole market > might have migrated to Windows 6.2 on 786 machines by the time it came > out. :-) The features you mention are certainly major achievements, perhaps I take too much for granted. But it's still a bit disappointing to find out that I can't jump in straight away into a VM and 32 bit clean mode primarily because of Apple products. Apple certainly took full licence in their advertising when announcing it, VM, 32 bits, the works. We have stuck to an informal policy of purchasing Apple products (SW & HW) simply because we thought these would be the 'safest' in times of (r)evolution. Not always the case. We would have also purchased Apple removable drives (if they made them). Paul Menon, Dept of Computer Science, Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, 124 Latrobe Street, Melbourne 3001, Victoria, Australia. pnm@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au PH: +61 3 660 3209
rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Robert K Shull) (05/22/91)
In article <5878@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au> pnm@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Paul BIG-EARS Menon) writes: > Gripe 1: > My Rodime 200Mb drive doesn't talk to me any more! I formatted Buy Silverlining from LaCie. Rodime never managed to get a fully working driver in the 3 years I had my drive. > Gripe 2: > This VM restriction on removable cartridges could be one reason > why we will stop acquiring Macs. Removable media is the only way This should be real easy to fix. I predict a shareware patch RSN. > Gripe 3: > Yep, I tried the whizz bang attention grabbing, > make-an-alias-of-yer-disk-and-access-it-from-anywhere trick. Too This works just fine for me. It even keeps the icon of the original disk. > Gripe 4: > We use communications a lot here => we use MacTCP. System 7 is not > System 7 until MacTCP is VM and 32 bit clean. I could forgive Can't say about 32-bit clean (no such machines on the network), but we have had no crashes while running MacTCP and VM. > Gripe 6: > A small 3rd party developer - delays may be acceptable, Symantec? no. > 90% compatible? Is that like being 90% a virgin? Who thought of Again, I haven't been able to get 4.0.5 to crash under VM, but haven't tested it under 32-bit mode. I've haven't used this as much as MacTCP though. > Right now, to me, System 7.0 is unusable. My condolences. It's very nice, and appears very stable and compatible. Robert -- Robert K. Shull rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu chinet!uokmax!rob
ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) (05/23/91)
In article <1991May22.011214.10977@midway.uchicago.edu> dwal@ellis.uchicago.edu (David Walton) writes: >BTW, virus problems, in contrast, ARE easily obviated. It's called >GateKeeper. Or Disinfectant. We've been using GK/GKA in our public >clusters for some time now, and have had almost no problems with >viruses. Using removable media is an innovative solution to the >problem, but I simply won't buy that it's the only effective way to >guard against viruses. I'm not even sure it's a solution. A hard disk can become infected from a floppy disk or over a network. Do removable disks solve either of these problems? No. Do they make an infected disk easier to clean? Hell, no. With fixed disks, if you discover a virus infection, you can have someone go through the lab and eradicate one disk at a time. With removable disks, you have to ask the students to bring in their disks, and they're probably not going to be able to do this all at the same time. So student A brings in his disk on Monday, student B brings in his on Tuesday, student C brings in hers on Wednesday, but in the meantime, student A has become reinfected from contact with student C... Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how this makes the virus problems easier at all.
gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Mondo) (05/23/91)
In article <5878@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au>, pnm@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Paul BIG-EARS Menon) writes: > hi, > Gripe 1: > My Rodime 200Mb drive doesn't talk to me any more! I formatted > the thing just for Sys 7, then upgraded the driver and wham! that's > the last I've heard from it. The Mac refuses to boot with it on the > SCSI bus (Sad Mac Error code 0F, SubCode 01, and some lovely music). > I can't reformat the critter, nothing, grrrr! Dunno anything about that...all our HD's work fine. > Gripe 2: > This VM restriction on removable cartridges could be one reason > why we will stop acquiring Macs. Removable media is the only way > we can allow students to use local HDs on Mac IIs without risk of > viruses (They can then be responsible for their own data). You mean you give out whole HD's to students? Geez...it would be a lot cheaper if you just used the Disinfectant INIT on local HD's. We've been doing it for awhile now and have had nary a problem with viruses. > memory > hungry System 7.0, in its wisdom has decided not to allow VM (swap) > on this type of media. The dangers of having swap on removable > media can be easily obviated. This simplistic solution will not do! > I'd like to hear of a solution soon, or else. This is no threat, > this is reality speaking. No, file serving will not do either. > We want connectivity, not dependency. And for whatever would you want VM on student-access machines anyway...I dunno about Australia (but since it is closer to Singapore), but real RAM is pretty cheap. And what has file serving got to do with VM anyway? > Gripe 3: > Yep, I tried the whizz bang attention grabbing, > make-an-alias-of-yer-disk-and-access-it-from-anywhere trick. Too > bad it wasn't tested thoroughly. I just happened to use it on > a machine with a hard disk of the same name, and guess what? Yup, > it opened the local disk! Now, it may have been that the (equivalent > of) chooser name was the same as well, but wow, you'd think it > wouldn't be that simple to fool. Well it does that because it checks volumes mounted in order from local to networked. So when whichever it finds first, that's the winner. The simple solution is to rename your hard drives...not a big problem in my view. > Gripe 4: > We use communications a lot here => we use MacTCP. System 7 is not > System 7 until MacTCP is VM and 32 bit clean. I could forgive > some poor 3rd party developer, but Apple?? > Gripe 5: We use MacTCP too. Works fine for us. Then again, we don't use things like VM. I prefer real RAM myself anyway. > A new 8.24GC driver - VM and 32 bit clean - when? Real soon now. :) Actually I am sort of intrigued that a good deal of Apple's network products all need to be upgraded in some fashion. And I suppose if Apple could, they would've delayed release until they could've. Still, though, I figure someone should've checked this out beforehand. > Gripe 6: > A small 3rd party developer - delays may be acceptable, Symantec? no. > 90% compatible? Is that like being 90% a virgin? Who thought of > the number 90? I think it was the Arabs...needing a number to continue after they got to 89. :) > > There are two outstanding features of System 7 which everyone has been > itching for, VM and 32 bit clean functionality. Neither Apple or > Symantec have come clean on this. The system is 32-bit clean and has the VM functionality. And, they aren't high on my wishlist of features for a new system. As for other Apple products and Symantec not being totally compliant, well, I don't have the answer. :) > > It isn't as though System 7 was a surprise to everyone, so why didn't > folks get it right? You wanted time, you got it. > > Right now, to me, System 7.0 is unusable. Oh just stop using VM for the time being and I'm sure you'll be much happier. You really don't need all that extra psuedo-RAM right now do ya? :) > > Oh well, I guess I can look at the pretty icons... someone did a spiffy > job. They look the same on my SE. :) > > Paul Menon, > Dept of Computer Science, > Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, > 124 Latrobe Street, > Melbourne 3001, > Victoria, Australia. > > pnm@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au > PH: +61 3 660 3209 -- Jason Gross Comp Sci Ugrad University of Miami Class of '91 (?) =========================================================================== Hey, wanna save the world? | Got sumtin' to say? gross@umiami.bitnet Nuke a Godless, Communist, | Pick and choose! gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu gay whale for Christ. | gross@miavax.ir.miami.edu - Anonymous | jgross@umbio.med.miami.edu =========================================================================== The University of Miami has a lovely fountain.
hoepfner@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov (Patrick Hoepfner) (05/28/91)
pnm@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Paul BIG-EARS Menon) writes: >In article <1991May22.011214.10977@midway.uchicago.edu>, dwal@ellis.uchicago.edu (David Walton) writes: >... >> virus problems... >I'm not sure what sort of users you have, but GateKeeper does not stand >up to an intentional (or unintentional) hostile user, ie, one who goes out of >his/her way to wreak misery upon subsequent users of a Mac with a hard disk. SAM from Symantec does allow you to lock the settings with a password and make it much more difficult for a hostile user to do something nasty. I personally have machines in public use and we have had no problems with people intentionally doing damage. There have been a couple of viruses found (and stopped by SAM but noted in SAM's Audit Trail). I think that people reaking havock intentionally and those who write viruses are in the minority. And as far as VM is concerned, SIMMs are so cheap right now that I wonder why you bother! Personally I would be willing to give up VM and Personal FileShare if the only other option was to switch to Windows which has neither! -- Pat ----------------------------------------> hoepfner@heasfs.gsfc.nasa.gov
tisu@quads.uchicago.edu (Seth Tisue) (05/30/91)
In article <hoepfner.675385657@heawk1> hoepfner@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov (Patrick Hoepfner) writes: > And as far as VM is concerned, SIMMs are so cheap right now that I wonder >why you bother! Look, I have an SE/30 with 2MB RAM, so if I wanted to buy SIMMs, I'd have to buy 4 MB, which would run me $200 or more. For some of us, this is not a trivial amount of memory -- this is difficult for some people to understand. -- ---- Seth Tisue USMail: c/o Plaster Cramp Press ---- (tisu@midway.uchicago.edu) P.O. Box 5975 "Please to be restful. It is only a few Chicago IL 60680 crazies who have from the crazy place outbroken." --------------
hoepfner@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov (Patrick Hoepfner) (06/02/91)
tisu@quads.uchicago.edu (Seth Tisue) writes: >Look, I have an SE/30 with 2MB RAM, so if I wanted to buy SIMMs, I'd have >to buy 4 MB, which would run me $200 or more. >For some of us, this is not a trivial amount of memory -- this is difficult >for some people to understand. What is difficult for some to understand is that with 2MB and System 7, you *really* won't be able to run two health sized applications! Even some of those Apple people told me that. 2MB of RAM in System 7 is like 1MB of RAM under System 6. Especially since you can't run just the Finder, everything is Multifinder. -- Pat --------------------------------------> hoepfner@heasfs.gsfc.nasa.gov P.S. If you can't find the 1/2 MB SIMMs, check out the back pages of MacWEEK, MacWorld, or MacUser.
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (06/04/91)
In article <hoepfner.675808304@heawk1> hoepfner@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov (Patrick Hoepfner) writes: > >Even some of those Apple people told me that. 2MB of RAM in System 7 is >like 1MB of RAM under System 6. Especially since you can't run just the >Finder, everything is Multifinder. All this is true. So System 6 on a 1Mb machine is equivalent to System 7 on a 2Mb machine with respect to the size of programs you can run. But you do get some substantial benefits from the money you invest upgrading from 1Mb or RAM to 2 Mb: (1) Since the Finder is always running, quitting an application to run another is much faster than on System 6 (w/1Mb). (2) You can use the new feature of the System 7 Finder (aliases, Find, ...) (3) You can probably find a couple of small programs that could be run together in 2Mb. So it's a tradeoff whether these features are worth the cost of the extra RAM. For some people it won't be. -- Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc. lsr@apple.com (or AppleLink: Rosenstein1)