changm@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Ming-Tsung Darda Chang) (05/26/91)
Hi, everyone: I think 'Apple Menu Items' of System 7.0 should have some options to allow the hierarchical menus. Suppose Control Panels Folder contains some cdev's. When I make an alias for this folder and put it into Apple Menu Items Folder, it will give me the hierarchical menus other than just a folder. How's that?! Having this function can allow me to categorize those files into application, tools, and Control Panels, for example. So far, I put '1' in front of every application's name and '2' for cdev's ... to organize my Apple Menu Items, but it still looks messy. Would someone points out why Apple does not like to implement it for system 7.0 just like color icons missed before color finder becomes really stuff? Thanks for any point! Darda -- ======================================================================== = Mr. Ming-Tsung Darda Chang = =----------------------------------------------------------------------= = Computer Science Department Internet: changm@cs.umn.edu =
folta@tove.cs.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) (05/26/91)
>I think 'Apple Menu Items' of System 7.0 should have some options to allow the >hierarchical menus. Suppose Control Panels Folder contains some cdev's. >When I make an alias for this folder and put it into Apple Menu Items Folder, >it will give me the hierarchical menus other than just a folder. How's that?! Anything you select from the Apple Menu gets opened by the System. The System treats all objects consistently: applications, sounds, fonts, the System, documents, folders, suitcases, and disks. When you open them, the logical thing happens. Now, choosing an item from the Apple menu simply causes it to open. If you have folders (or aliases to folders) in the Apple Menu folder, they become visible in the Apple menu and they are opened when you select them. This is consistent with all other objects you might place in the Apple Menu folder. This is also consistent, of course, with how folders in the Startup Items folder work. If you get hierarchial menus by placing folders in the Apple Menu folder, you are suddenly treating folders inconsistently. (That is, everything else you could possibly place in the Apple menu is opened by selecting it... except for folders.) Also, how would you place folders in the Apple menu so that you could jump quickly to a folder of your choice? I am already quite fond of this, as it lets me jump straight to my favorite folders. Maybe they could say: folder *aliases* in the Apple menu open the pointed-to folders, while *true* folders define a pull-right submenu. But then the transparency of aliases becomes context-dependent. Everyone wants pull-rights in the Apple menu, but it is hard to decide how to do it! -- Wayne Folta (folta@cs.umd.edu 128.8.128.8)
m_herodotus@csc32.enet.dec.com (Mario Herodotus) (05/26/91)
-In article <34901@mimsy.umd.edu>, folta@tove.cs.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) writes: >Anything you select from the Apple Menu gets opened by the System. The System >treats all objects consistently: applications, sounds, fonts, the System, >documents, folders, suitcases, and disks. When you open them, the logical thing >happens. >Now, choosing an item from the Apple menu simply causes it to open. If you >have folders (or aliases to folders) in the Apple Menu folder, they become >visible in the Apple menu and they are opened when you select them. This is >consistent with all other objects you might place in the Apple Menu folder. >This is also consistent, of course, with how folders in the Startup Items >folder work. >If you get hierarchial menus by placing folders in the Apple Menu folder, >you are suddenly treating folders inconsistently. (That is, everything else >you could possibly place in the Apple menu is opened by selecting it... except >for folders.) Also, how would you place folders in the Apple menu so that you >could jump quickly to a folder of your choice? I am already quite fond of >this, as it lets me jump straight to my favorite folders. How about just changing the way the menu reacts if you release the mouse before pulling right? With this method you could still open the folder by releasing the button while the folder is hilited, and if you drag right, and you could open the application/CDEV/whatever that is inside the folder. I think this is reasonable, a little different then things were done in the past but so are a lot of things about system 7. I guess that part of the problem is that whenever we are presented with a hierarchical menu we assume that mousing to the right is the only choice we have. Could the interface guidelines be changed to allow selection of the item that caused the hierarchical menu to appear? (Is this ever addressed in the guidelines?) This would give us both choices, select a folder...folder opens. Select something inside a folder...that item opens. (it could even be a second folder with a hierarchical menu of its own!) Mario ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I can't afford my own opinions, and DEC won't pay for them either. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mario Herodotus [ CX03 1/K3 ] | m_herodotus@coors.dec.com Digital Equipment Corporation | Customer Support Center | - or - m_herodotus%coors.dec@decwrl.dec.com 305 Rockrimmon Blvd. | Colorado Springs, CO 80919 | - or - ...!decwrl!coors.dec.com!m_herodotus | (800) 525-6570 Ext 25520 | - or - CSC32::M_HERODOTUS [direct line (719) 592-5520] | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ . . . . . . .
Rick_McCormack@mindlink.bc.ca (Rick McCormack) (05/26/91)
From an earlier article (whose thread of contributors is too long to include :-) ) >> I guess that part of the problem is that whenever we >> are presented with a hierarchical menu we assume that >> mousing to the right is the only choice we have. Could the >> interface guidelines be changed to allow selection of the >> item that caused the hierarchical menu to appear? (Is this >> ever addressed in the guidelines?) >> >> This would give us both choices, select a >> folder...folder opens. Select something inside a >> folder...that item opens. (it could even be a second folder >> with a hierarchical menu of its own!) > Interestingly enough, this is *precisely* how the old HierDA > worked on sys 6.0.x. I kinda miss old HierDA, too... not > near as much as DfaultD, tho... MasterJuggler also uses this scheme, and it works well for me also. Holding off on System 7.0 till I can use MasterJuggler - I have real need of several of its facilities daily. -- _________________________________________________________ | IMAGISTICS Business Theatre Technology | Rick McCormack | | Interactive Effective Compelling | Vancouver, BC | |________________________________________|________________| | UseNet: Rick_McCormack@mindlink.uucp | A O-L: Rique | |_________________________________________________________| .
philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (05/27/91)
In article <34901@mimsy.umd.edu>, folta@tove.cs.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) writes: |> Now, choosing an item from the Apple menu simply causes it to open. If you |> have folders (or aliases to folders) in the Apple Menu folder, they become |> visible in the Apple menu and they are opened when you select them. This is |> consistent with all other objects you might place in the Apple Menu folder. |> This is also consistent, of course, with how folders in the Startup Items |> folder work. |> |> If you get hierarchial menus by placing folders in the Apple Menu folder, |> you are suddenly treating folders inconsistently. (That is, everything else |> you could possibly place in the Apple menu is opened by selecting it... except |> for folders.) Also, how would you place folders in the Apple menu so that you |> could jump quickly to a folder of your choice? I am already quite fond of |> this, as it lets me jump straight to my favorite folders. My solution is simple: any folder whose name ends with "Menu Items" within the folder "Apple Menu Items" is treated as a hierarchical menu; any other folder is treated as in 7.0. This rule can be nested. The folder "Applications Menu Items" would appear as the hierarchical menu item "Applications". The folder "documents" would appear as an ordinary menu item, and selecting it would result in the folder opening. This has the advantage of being consistent with the naming convention of the Apple Menu Items folder iteslf. Imagine the following hierarchy of folders: folder hierarchy: comments: System Apple Menu Items alarm clock ordinary DA Applications Menu Items hierarchical menu MS Word aliases Stuffit to these applications TCP FTP etc. Menu Items hierarchical menu Mac IP 4.0 alias to application MacX Menu Items extra level of hierarchy MacX settings alias to document MacX application alias to application Control Panels Menu Items alias to Control Panels documents open "documents" folder This scheme allows menus to open folders (which I like), but at the same time makes hierarchical menus possible (which I particularly want for Control Panels). With the example I have given above (I wouldn't actually use so many - this is just an example) - you can do everything requesters of hierarchical menus have requested, without losing the present (consistent) functionality. Small extension (left as an exercise): think of how this scheme could be extended to allow additions to other Finder menus. -- Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
chai@hawk.cs.ukans.edu (Ian Chai) (05/27/91)
In article <3239@shodha.enet.dec.com> m_herodotus@csc32.enet.dec.com (Mario Herodotus) writes: >-In article <34901@mimsy.umd.edu>, folta@tove.cs.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) > How about just changing the way the menu reacts if you release the >mouse before pulling right? With this method you could still open the folder >by releasing the button while the folder is hilited, and if you drag right, >and you could open the application/CDEV/whatever that is inside the folder. > > I think this is reasonable, a little different then things were done >in the past but so are a lot of things about system 7. > > I guess that part of the problem is that whenever we are presented >with a hierarchical menu we assume that mousing to the right is the only choice >we have. Could the interface guidelines be changed to allow selection of the >item that caused the hierarchical menu to appear? (Is this ever addressed in >the guidelines?) > > This would give us both choices, select a folder...folder opens. >Select something inside a folder...that item opens. (it could even be a >second folder with a hierarchical menu of its own!) Interestingly enough, this is *precisely* how the old HierDA worked on sys 6.0.x. I kinda miss old HierDA, too... not near as much as DfaultD, tho... -- Ian Chai Internet: chai@cs.ukans.edu Bitnet: 665instr@ukanvax I don't believe in flaming. If I appear to be flaming, either (a) it's an illusion due to the lack of nonverbal cues or (b) my sprinkler system has suffered a momentary glitch, so just ignore me until it's fixed.
ngo@flash.harvard.EDU (Thomas Ngo) (05/27/91)
In article <34901@mimsy.umd.edu>, folta@tove.cs.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) writes: folta> If you get hierarchial menus by placing folders in the Apple Menu folta> folder, you are suddenly treating folders inconsistently. (That is, folta> everything else you could possibly place in the Apple menu is opened folta> by selecting it... except for folders.) In article <1991May26.213617.24923@neon.Stanford.EDU>, philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) replies: philip> My solution is simple: any folder whose name ends with "Menu Items" philip> within the folder "Apple Menu Items" is treated as a hierarchical menu Here's a simpler solution that is not dependent on folder names. Remember that one is not obliged to descend a hierarchical menu--one can select the parent menu item! So, my solution would be: (1) Each folder in the Apple Menu Items folder is associated with a hierarhical menu. (2) If the user selects the folder itself, that folder is opened. (3) If the user descends the hierarchy, he/she can open something inside the folder without causing the folder's window to be displayed. This solution is completely recursive and I think it satisfies everyone... including me :-) -- Tom Ngo ngo@harvard.harvard.edu 617/495-1768 lab number, leave message
sie6@quads.uchicago.edu (scott alexander siege) (05/28/91)
I do not think that there is really any particular problem with hierarchical menuss and how they relate to folders as was suggested. A single alteration to how these menus work will be necessary. That is: right now, the menu item that has sub-menus attached cannot itself be selected. If you made it possible the main menu item itself (when appropriate) then that action could be used to open the folder. You would still have the option of selecting a sub-menu and moving directly to a DA, CDEV, sub-folder, etc. Although this kind of menu selection (that is: selecting a menu item directly which has sub-menus) is not currently a part of the interface, there are programs which do it and I believe it would be a good addition to the interface, especially with respect to the added functionality of the new Apple menu. A problem I do forsee is that you may not want the contents of a folder to appear as sub-menus. So, how does the mac decide? Possibly via a checkbox in the "Get Info" box? I don't really know. While on the subject: can one add a keyboard equiv. to an item in the Apple menu? Adding to other regular items has been described by editing their resources. But, what about those items with no resources. eg. Apple Menu items? -Scott
Timothy.Allen@dartmouth.edu (Timothy Allen) (05/31/91)
In article <34901@mimsy.umd.edu> folta@tove.cs.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) writes: With much discussion of how the Apple Menu treats folders and other objects consistently, Wayne poses the following dilemma: > Everyone wants pull-rights in the Apple menu, but it is hard to decide how > to do it! Well, how about this: selecting a folder from the apple menu would cause the hierarchical menu to pop out to the right, displaying the contents of the folder (much like turning the triangles to down in finder list views). The user then has two options: 1) drag right to an object in the popout menu would select and open that object, but not dragging right, and letting up on the mouse button over the folder name would cause the folder itself to open. Just a suggestion. tim.allen@dartmouth.edu
MAFEM@ROHVM1.BITNET (Max M. Minkoff) (06/06/91)
I came across a utility that will do just what's been asked for here - hierarchical Apple Menus be folders. It's called SuperMenu and it will be distributed free with HandOff II v2.2, which should be shipping in about 3 weeks. This is a feature I've definitely been looking for!!