iceman@sequent.com (Ian Evans) (06/06/91)
I know this subject has been covered MANY times, but I have yet to see a REAL response: Why are the 1 bit icons, icn#, used under system 7.0 when there are 4 and 8 bit icons available (icl4, icl8, ics4, ics8)??? The 7.0 system file has both 1, 4, and 8 bit icon resources for many standard finder icons, but some of them are not used. WHY!!!!! I have alot of users who are very attached to their colorized environments under system 6.x. I realize these are unimportant issues to most mac managers, but to users it's a BIG DEAL. Would someone at Apple who KNOWS THE ANSWER(S) please respond to this question?? I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know. Also, if there is a clean workaround that can be implemented I would be happy to post my findings. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian C. Evans -- The ICEMAN Sequent Computer Systems Inc. iceman@sequent.com Desktop Computing Platforms ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
klingspo@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Steve Klingsporn) (06/06/91)
In article <1991Jun5.195502.15181@sequent.com> iceman@sequent.com (Ian Evans) writes: > >Why are the 1 bit icons, icn#, used under system 7.0 when there are 4 >and 8 bit icons available (icl4, icl8, ics4, ics8)??? The 7.0 system >file has both 1, 4, and 8 bit icon resources for many standard finder >icons, but some of them are not used. WHY!!!!! I have alot of users >who are very attached to their colorized environments under system >6.x. I realize these are unimportant issues to most mac managers, but >to users it's a BIG DEAL. I'm not with Apple, but here are some suggestions: Say that you have your Mac in 1-bit mode. God knows you cannot display the color resources in this mode. For CAD, etc., you may want to turn your monitor down for speed purposes. Say that the Palette Manager has used (don't know the terminology) all 256 or somewhere around there colors -- default to the b&w ones. The icn# mask is used for icl4/8 icons. ICN# is a standard resource, and could not be excluded. Hey, what about those who aren't as lucky as you and I to have COLOR? I believe Apple sold 100,000 Classics within the first weeks of announcement?!?! The ones that aren't used may be used in the future. You can paste in your own icons. Hey, if you want to use the "little grey disk," God, open ResEdit, and paste them on the disks you want the little grey disk on -- in the Get Info window. If you read Inside Macintosh Volume 5, you'll see that colorization of the interface is indeed NOT RECOMMENDED, as the thrust of the interface is clarity. You know that it's been proven that color has effects on people?! Red and green especially. Put a green border around the "initialize" button, and users are more likely to go for it... It's all sensible. Who cares -- this is the point. If you don't want color, go into your system file and delete all the color resources. Maybe it will work -- probably will. If you do want color, you have it -- if you want more, paste in icons to heart's content. If you want more than that, hey, someone will come along and make inits like ColorFinder and SunDesk that colorize all creation, and you can have the kludgiest and gawdiest (sp???) interface in the world. It's up to you, it's about choice. Personally, I'm really happy with the new look of the Finder. Steve Klingsporn Goof (and Apple wanna-be!!)
alexr@apple.com (Alexander M. Rosenberg) (06/07/91)
In article <1991Jun5.195502.15181@sequent.com>, iceman@sequent.com (Ian Evans) writes: > > I know this subject has been covered MANY times, but I have yet to see > a REAL response: > > Why are the 1 bit icons, icn#, used under system 7.0 when there are 4 > and 8 bit icons available (icl4, icl8, ics4, ics8)??? The 7.0 system > file has both 1, 4, and 8 bit icon resources for many standard finder > icons, but some of them are not used. WHY!!!!! I have alot of users > who are very attached to their colorized environments under system > 6.x. I realize these are unimportant issues to most mac managers, but > to users it's a BIG DEAL. > Which ones aren't used? About the only one you won't see by default is the floppy disk icon. (I'm not actually sure why this exists, except maybe for the Disk Init dialogs.) Every icon (all all kinds) that I looked at in the system file is used for me. > Would someone at Apple who KNOWS THE ANSWER(S) please respond to this > question?? I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know. > Yeah, well, I think I know the answer, but I'll wait until you tell us which icons don't show up. > Also, if there is a clean workaround that can be implemented I would be > happy to post my findings. > You shouldn't need a workaround, all standard icons in the system file should show up. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Alexander M. Rosenberg - INTERNET: alexr@apple.com - Yoyodyne - - 330 1/2 Waverley St. - UUCP:ucbvax!apple!alexr - Propulsion - - Palo Alto, CA 94301 - - Systems - - (415) 329-8463 - Nobody is my employer so - :-) - - (408) 974-3110 - nobody cares what I say. - -
ashwin@gatech.edu (Ashwin Ram) (06/07/91)
In article <15357@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU> klingspo@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Steve Klingsporn) writes: > Hey, if you want to use the "little grey disk," God, open ResEdit, and paste > them on the disks you want the little grey disk on -- in the Get Info > window. How do I get the system to use the little grey disk icon (I assume you mean the floppy disk icon with the grey 3d effect) by default on all floppies? Besides being prettier, it would be more consistent with the 3d effect icons for the trash, folders, etc. Thanks, -- Ashwin.
jkeegan@hawk.ulowell.edu (Jeff Keegan) (06/07/91)
<Flame warning.. some useful information within, but not much> In article <15357@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU> you write: >In article <1991Jun5.195502.15181@sequent.com> iceman@sequent.com (Ian Evans) writes: >> >>Why are the 1 bit icons, icn#, used under system 7.0 when there are 4 >>and 8 bit icons available (icl4, icl8, ics4, ics8)??? The 7.0 system >>file has both 1, 4, and 8 bit icon resources for many standard finder >>icons, but some of them are not used. WHY!!!!! I have alot of users >>who are very attached to their colorized environments under system >>6.x. I realize these are unimportant issues to most mac managers, but >>to users it's a BIG DEAL. > > >I'm not with Apple, but here are some suggestions: > >Say that you have your Mac in 1-bit mode. God knows you cannot display >the color resources in this mode. For CAD, etc., you may want to turn >your monitor down for speed purposes. Steve, I don't think you understand his question. People have been complaining for weeks now that in 16 or 256 color mode, 1-bit icons are being used. This is ALWAYS happening with the floppy icon that's part of the system software, but doesn't install itself... > >Say that the Palette Manager has used (don't know the terminology) all >256 or somewhere around there colors -- default to the b&w ones. Does the finder actually do this deliberately, or are you speculating? (I'm just curious) > >The icn# mask is used for icl4/8 icons. ICN# is a standard resource, >and could not be excluded. Hey, what about those who aren't as lucky >as you and I to have COLOR? I believe Apple sold 100,000 Classics within >the first weeks of announcement?!?! Hello? Did you READ his original post? He was simply asking why (when in color) the 1-bit icons were showing up, not why they existed in the system software.. >The ones that aren't used may be used in the future. Again, you missed his point. >You can paste in your own icons. > >Hey, if you want to use the "little grey disk," God, open ResEdit, and paste >them on the disks you want the little grey disk on -- in the Get Info >window. If you read Inside Macintosh Volume 5, you'll see that >colorization of the interface is indeed NOT RECOMMENDED, as the thrust >of the interface is clarity. There we go. Going from misunderstanding someone's question to leaping off on a tangent about the standardization of the user interface, maybe just to hint to people that you've read Inside Macintosh (or at least some Human Interface Guidelines).. And he's talking about color icons that APPLE MADE! They are THERE, simply NOT USED.. It seems to me like a small bug (er, sorry, /feature/) that Apple will probably fix in future revisions, now that they know of the problem. > >You know that it's been proven that color has effects on people?! > >Red and green especially. Put a green border around the "initialize" >button, and users are more likely to go for it... > >It's all sensible. > Again, what relevance does this have? > >Who cares -- this is the point. If you don't want color, go into your >system file and delete all the color resources. Maybe it will work -- >probably will. If you do want color, you have it -- if you want more, >paste in icons to heart's content. If you want more than that, hey, >someone will come along and make inits like ColorFinder and SunDesk >that colorize all creation, and you can have the kludgiest and gawdiest >(sp???) interface in the world. > What a truly useful paragraph. Despite Steve's help, I'd still like to hear someone at Apple at least say that they've read messages about this issue but have yet to reproduce it, or that they know about the bug and will fix it someday. Another thing I've noticed is that every 20 seconds or so, my hard drive icon (pasted with system 7, but the drive was initialized with SilverLining and a custom icon) flickers. It's the only thing on the screen being updated, and for no apparent reason. Anyone? Clues? Maybe Steve can reply and tell us about the standards recommended for modal dialogs? (highly relevant) <The flame warning is no longer in effect. Return to your homes...> ..Jeff Keegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jeff Keegan | I clutch the wire fence until my fingers bleed | | jkeegan@hawk.ulowell.edu | A wound that will not heal | |----------------------------| A heart that cannot feel | | This space intentionally | Hoping that the horror will receed | | left blank | Hoping that tomorrow we'll all be freed -RUSH | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ejb@think.com (Erik Bailey) (06/07/91)
In article <13903@goofy.Apple.COM> alexr@apple.com (Alexander M. Rosenberg) writes: >In article <1991Jun5.195502.15181@sequent.com>, iceman@sequent.com (Ian Evans) writes: >> >> I know this subject has been covered MANY times, but I have yet to see >> a REAL response: >> >> Why are the 1 bit icons, icn#, used under system 7.0 when there are 4 >> and 8 bit icons available (icl4, icl8, ics4, ics8)??? [...] > >Which ones aren't used? About the only one you won't see by default is the >floppy disk icon. (I'm not actually sure why this exists, except maybe for >the Disk Init dialogs.) Every icon (all all kinds) that I looked at in the >system file is used for me. That's the one we're griping about! I don't recall offhand if any other icl8's have this problem, but that one sure does. And it's not like it's some random picture, either -- its ID number is the same as the 1-bit ICN# that *does* appear (in all pixel depths). >> Would someone at Apple who KNOWS THE ANSWER(S) please respond to this >> question?? I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know. >> > >Yeah, well, I think I know the answer, but I'll wait until you tell us >which icons don't show up. Just the floppy disk. If you *do* know the answer, could you help us mere mortals...? Pleeze? :-) > >> Also, if there is a clean workaround that can be implemented I would be >> happy to post my findings. >> > >You shouldn't need a workaround, all standard icons in the system file >should show up. That's the point! It *should* show up -- after all, it's got the same ID. There has been no satisfactory solution to the problem (NB -- pasting icons onto every floppy is NOT is satisfactory solution!) as yet... (lest I get flamed -- the point is not that I [and others] want a nifty 8-bit floppy disk icon. It's that a part of the system that SHOULD work DOESN'T, and nobody at Apple is even ACKNOWLEDGING that fact!!! A simple "Yes, we know it's there; it'll be fixed in 7.0.1" would do VERY nicely!) --Erik (ps - has anyone actually called the 1-800 or 1-900 numbers with this question?) -- Erik Bailey | 7 Oak Knoll | Thinking Machines Corp. ejb@think.com | Arlington, MA 02174 | 245 First St. harvard!think!ejb | (617) 643-0732 | Cambridge, MA 02142 /earth is 98% full. Please remove any excess inhabitants.
jkeegan@hawk.ulowell.edu (Jeff Keegan) (06/08/91)
In article <1991Jun7.150801.23626@Think.COM> ejb@think.com (Erik Bailey) writes: >In article <13903@goofy.Apple.COM> alexr@apple.com (Alexander M. Rosenberg) writes: >>In article <1991Jun5.195502.15181@sequent.com>, iceman@sequent.com (Ian Evans) writes: >>> >>> I know this subject has been covered MANY times, but I have yet to see >>> a REAL response: >>> >>> Why are the 1 bit icons, icn#, used under system 7.0 when there are 4 >>> and 8 bit icons available (icl4, icl8, ics4, ics8)??? [...] >> >>Which ones aren't used? About the only one you won't see by default is the >>floppy disk icon. (I'm not actually sure why this exists, except maybe for >>the Disk Init dialogs.) Every icon (all all kinds) that I looked at in the >>system file is used for me. > >That's the one we're griping about! I don't recall offhand if any other >icl8's have this problem, but that one sure does. And it's not like it's >some random picture, either -- its ID number is the same as the 1-bit ICN# >that *does* appear (in all pixel depths). > I think there are two seperate problems here.. While I agree with the complaint that the floppy icon doesn't show up, I've also witnessed occurances where the Finder was not aware that a color-depth change had occured, and it used 1-bit icons for EVERYTHING (system icons, Application icons, etc). I specifically remember someone playing a game called Armor Alley on a machine next to me, and them asking me how to change the color. I told them about an init Screen Flipper we have, that lets you change the color depth by holding down the control key and clicking (creating a pop-up menu). When they switched to 16 color mode they complained that the mac should use color icons in that mode too, and I said that they did, and then saw the screen. All of the icons were drawn in 1-bit mode, but (if I remember right) some were colored, like system 6 did (outline colored, all of the icon colored).. I went to the system folder to check it out and it also was full of non-colorized icons. After changing the color mode again the problem went away... Then again, it was a long night, and I'm not sure how awake I was... :) ..Jeff Keegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jeff Keegan | I clutch the wire fence until my fingers bleed | | jkeegan@hawk.ulowell.edu | A wound that will not heal | |----------------------------| A heart that cannot feel | | This space intentionally | Hoping that the horror will receed | | left blank | Hoping that tomorrow we'll all be freed -RUSH | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Would someone at Apple who KNOWS THE ANSWER(S) please respond to this >>> question?? I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know. >>> >> >>Yeah, well, I think I know the answer, but I'll wait until you tell us >>which icons don't show up. > >Just the floppy disk. If you *do* know the answer, could you help us mere >mortals...? Pleeze? :-) > >> >>> Also, if there is a clean workaround that can be implemented I would be >>> happy to post my findings. >>> >> >>You shouldn't need a workaround, all standard icons in the system file >>should show up. > >That's the point! It *should* show up -- after all, it's got the same ID. >There has been no satisfactory solution to the problem (NB -- pasting icons >onto every floppy is NOT is satisfactory solution!) as yet... > >(lest I get flamed -- the point is not that I [and others] want a nifty >8-bit floppy disk icon. It's that a part of the system that SHOULD work >DOESN'T, and nobody at Apple is even ACKNOWLEDGING that fact!!! A simple >"Yes, we know it's there; it'll be fixed in 7.0.1" would do VERY nicely!) > >--Erik > >(ps - has anyone actually called the 1-800 or 1-900 numbers with this >question?) > >-- > Erik Bailey | 7 Oak Knoll | Thinking Machines Corp. > ejb@think.com | Arlington, MA 02174 | 245 First St. > harvard!think!ejb | (617) 643-0732 | Cambridge, MA 02142 > /earth is 98% full. Please remove any excess inhabitants.
tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) (06/08/91)
>(lest I get flamed -- the point is not that I [and others] want a nifty >8-bit floppy disk icon. It's that a part of the system that SHOULD work >DOESN'T, and nobody at Apple is even ACKNOWLEDGING that fact!!! A simple >"Yes, we know it's there; it'll be fixed in 7.0.1" would do VERY nicely!) Just to open a whole other can of worms. Why aren't crsr's supported in 7.0 (Well yes you can use your own calls to GetCCursor() and SetCCursor() in your apps but why not Finder/System?) If Apple has decided on a standard color interface (wctbs, icl8s, etc etc) why didn't they include the support for color cursors? I would think that they would want to support all colorization features. Todd -- Internet: tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu NeXTMail: tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu BitNet: tagreen@iubacs.bitnet
ejb@think.com (Erik Bailey) (06/08/91)
In article <1991Jun7.203001.18442@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) writes: > >In article (whatever it was) I wrote: >> >>(lest I get flamed -- the point is not that I [and others] want a nifty >>8-bit floppy disk icon. It's that a part of the system that SHOULD work >>DOESN'T, and nobody at Apple is even ACKNOWLEDGING that fact!!! A simple >>"Yes, we know it's there; it'll be fixed in 7.0.1" would do VERY nicely!) > >Just to open a whole other can of worms. Why aren't crsr's supported >in 7.0 (Well yes you can use your own calls to GetCCursor() and >SetCCursor() in your apps but why not Finder/System?) If Apple has >decided on a standard color interface (wctbs, icl8s, etc etc) why >didn't they include the support for color cursors? I would think that >they would want to support all colorization features. > >Todd Hmm... Interesting... I've been using an INIT called ColorCursor (makes the cursor a nifty rainbow) since Day 1 of having my IIsi, so I never even thought about that. But you're right -- I shouldn't HAVE to use an init! I should just be able to paste the 'crsr' from the INIT into the System and be done with it! (gee - has anyone tried this? CAN you do it?) Ah, the joys of new software. -_Erik PS - lest anyone out there think I hate Sys 7, that is far from the truth. I *love* the software, and wouldn't dream of going back to 6.0.7... I'm just a gumbler at heart... :-) -- Erik Bailey | 7 Oak Knoll | Thinking Machines Corp. ejb@think.com | Arlington, MA 02174 | 245 First St. harvard!think!ejb | (617) 643-0732 | Cambridge, MA 02142 /earth is 98% full. Please remove any excess inhabitants.
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (06/08/91)
In article <1991Jun6.215232.17595@ulowell.ulowell.edu> jkeegan@hawk.ulowell.edu (Jeff Keegan) writes: > >Despite Steve's help, I'd still like to hear someone at Apple at least say >that they've read messages about this issue but have yet to reproduce it, >or that they know about the bug and will fix it someday. Another thing I've I've read this discussion, and it's easy to reproduce. I'm not in a position to do anything about it, however. My theory is that the Finder uses 1-bit icons when it can't get the necessary colors to display the multi-bit icons, or perhaps when the color table is non-standard. The alternative would be to display lousy-looking color icons in some cases. So this probably isn't a bug. The Monitors control panel displays the selected devices color table, so you can see that the Finder shifts to 1-bit icons when the color table changes. It also looks like the Finder is courteous with respect to the color table in that it doesn't reset the color table when it comes to the front. That makes sense to me, because resetting the color table takes time (every window has to update), and there's no loss of functionality when using 1-bit icons. This doesn't explain why the multi-bit floppy icon isn't used. That may be a bug. I don't work on the Finder, so I don't know for sure. By the way, if you think there is a bug, and you're concerned about Apple knowing about it, then send in a bug report. The utility you need is on ftp.apple.com in the /dts/mac/tools directory (I think). Posting a message on Usenet is not guaranteed to work. -- Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc. lsr@apple.com (or AppleLink: Rosenstein1)
tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) (06/08/91)
>I should just be able to paste the 'crsr' from the INIT into the System and >be done with it! (gee - has anyone tried this? CAN you do it?) Yes I tried adding crsr's to the system with the same id's of the standard cursors. Didn't work. (I would not have posted earlier about the system not supporting them without at least _trying_ it first; good way to get flooded with 100 messages in your mbox ;) ;) ). Anyway yes there are several inits to color the arrow cursor, but what about the watch (and all it's frames) the ibeam cursor, etc etc. I just wish it was standard so that we didn't have to add another extension to our system. 7.0.1, 7.1 _please_ Apple. Along the lines with Eric..I love sys7, but as always there is room for improvement. Todd -- Internet: tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu NeXTMail: tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu BitNet: tagreen@iubacs.bitnet
jasons@pendragon.TEK.COM (E. Jason Scheck) (06/11/91)
In article <13966@goofy.Apple.COM>, lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) writes: |> In article <1991Jun6.215232.17595@ulowell.ulowell.edu> jkeegan@hawk.ulowell.edu (Jeff Keegan) writes: |> > |> >Despite Steve's help, I'd still like to hear someone at Apple at least say |> >that they've read messages about this issue but have yet to reproduce it, |> >or that they know about the bug and will fix it someday. Another thing I've |> |> I've read this discussion, and it's easy to reproduce. I'm not in a |> position to do anything about it, however. |> |> My theory is that the Finder uses 1-bit icons when it can't get the |> necessary colors to display the multi-bit icons, or perhaps when the color |> table is non-standard. The alternative would be to display lousy-looking |> color icons in some cases. So this probably isn't a bug. |> |> This doesn't explain why the multi-bit floppy icon isn't used. That may be |> a bug. I don't work on the Finder, so I don't know for sure. |> |> -- |> Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc. |> |> lsr@apple.com |> (or AppleLink: Rosenstein1) I have gotten used to the floppy icon from the 128K days (when the shutter was filled in), and I've become accustomed to coloring it in anytime I got a new system release. Even when I color in the b&w icon in the system file under system 7, I get the old icon for floppies. It seems that the finder is just using the icon that the Sony driver returns to it. Is there any interface for a _driver_ to return a color icon (so that something like "Facade" could be used to substitute a better icon)? ------------------------------------ Jason Scheck jasons@master.CNA.TEK.COM ------------------------------------