forbes@sp11.csrd.uiuc.edu (Michael Scott Forbes) (07/07/90)
In article <77516@aerospace.AERO.ORG> doner@spot.UUCP (John Doner) writes: > The money for all that R & D, developing and improving user interfaces, >innovative software like Hypercard, etc., let alone the hardware, has to come >from somewhere. The only way Apple could sell computers at PC-clone prices I've been trying to avoid posting follow-ups to *any* of the children of the offspring of the spawn of "Rumor: Loss of Mac's 20% over Windows 3.0" (the thread that ate comp.sys.mac.misc; the resulting loss of productive Mac-related conversation has narrowed the Mac/Windows gap by 11% ;-), but I have to take exception with the phrase "innovative software like Hypercard". I've just spent an afternoon of clearing space on hard drives at a friend's place of work; the most effective method of doing this so far, freeing up three to four megabytes of unused space, is to remove Hypercard. No one uses it; there's barely enough memory on these Mac SE's to run it; and the mystery question of the day is "What is it?" It seems to be a piece of software in search of a practical use; unlike databases, spreadsheets, page layout programs, etc., there is neither a high demand for hypermedia engines nor a lucrative untapped market in them. If development costs for Hypercard are driving up the costs of making a Mac, then I think we can safely ax this project. Most users could live without Hypercard and be richer as a result. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Forbes University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign forbes@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu Center for Supercomputing Research & Development DISCLAIMER: They wanted to hire someone who knew nothing about computers...
vladimir@prosper (Vladimir G. Ivanovic) (07/07/90)
Funny. I think Hypercard, along with NeWS and emacs, are THE programs one should try and emulate. They are usable "right out of the box" by naive users, but still allow sophisticated programmers the ability to extend the application domain into areas that the original designers never dreamed of. Contrast Hypercard with a database program, NeWS with X11 and emacs with vi. Those in the first group are a language which describes solutions in the problem domain, and implementations of an interpreter for that language. Those in the second group are (generally) fast, efficient but monolithic solutions which can't be extended or generalized. Note than I am not saying that the inventors of X11, vi, etc. are bad programmers, stupid, or whatever, just that their solutions can't be extended. -- Vladimir
mason@habs11.enet.dec.com (Gary Mason) (07/08/90)
>three to four megabytes of unused space, is to remove Hypercard. No one >uses it; there's barely enough memory on these Mac SE's to run it; and >the mystery question of the day is "What is it?" It seems to be a piece of >software in search of a practical use; unlike databases, spreadsheets, page >layout programs, etc., there is neither a high demand for hypermedia engines >nor a lucrative untapped market in them. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Scott Forbes University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign I, for one, will step up to this discussion and defend HyperCard (and perhaps SuperCard, though I don't use that). I spent the first twenty or so years of my career developing software systems. I progressed and advanced, as one would hope, and haven't had my hands on at the coding level for nearly ten years now. Besides, I just plain got tired of the requirements of coding. But I still feel the creative urge now and again, and I have some projects I would like to develop. I want a comprehensive bibliography and database for English/UK historical data (with a minor in genealogy); a nice integrated system for maintaining homebrew recipes, notes and other information; I have some ideas around training systems of various types; and similar things. HyperCard allows me to accomplish what I want, and without the rigor associated with other programming languages and systems. It surely lacks some of the power and flexibility of other programming languages, but with the freeware and shareware around to provide adjuncts for some of the absent, trickier stuff, it is perfectly acceptable for what I feel I need. HyperCard performance leaves something to be desired, but that will improve too, as time goes on. (BTW - I am a stickler for performance at work. But at home, where my Macintosh is, I am more lenient. That's why I have a 4 MB Plus with a 45 MB HD, and not a 16 MB II** system with two 80-150 MB HDs, color, etc. 8') So on balance, given the cost, performance, and ease of use characteristics of HyperCard, I think it is a very worthwhile product. There is also a large body of stacks available with which to form the basis of a project, thereby saving a lot of the drudgery. That allows one to concentrate on modifications to create precisely what is needed for a given purpose. Keep it up Apple! Cheers...Gary mason@habs11.enet.dec.com
eggplant@walt.cc.utexas.edu (johan van Zanten) (07/08/90)
Mr Forbes writes:
"If development costs for Hypercard are driving up the costs of making a Mac,
then I think we can safely ax this project. Most users could live without
Hypercard and be richer as a result."
I strongly disagree. One of the foundations Apple built its current
success upon was the Educational market. Currently, Apple is working very hard
to produce a low cost, color Macintosh as soon as possible (firing a high exec)
because of the educational demand. They have (reportedly) lost $500 million
in sales to IBM and IBM-compatibles, and it hurts.
However, Macs will not be able to "infiltrate" the educational world if
they do not have some sort of easy-to-learn programming environment, where
teachers and students just beginning to use computers, can write sometimes-
lenghty and interesting programs, tailored to their students' needs.
I'm not shooting my mouth off, here. I work at the University of Texas'
College of Education Learning Resources Center. I help students in the
Computer Literacy classes use the Apple //e's to program in BASIC because Macs
are (at the moment) to expensive to use. Speaking from about 7 years of exper-
ience in BASIC, C, Pascal and HyperCard programming, i would recommend Hyper-
Card for anyone who wants to produce their own "program" but doesn't have the
time or orientation to learn a "real" higher language.
If Apple "axes" HyperCard, they lose the Educational market they need
to survive. You cannot expect teachers to use MS Word, Excel or other
such "useful" programs as teaching aids in a 3rd grade classroom. You need
a programmable "tour" or "display" -type engine, which can use graphics and
sound to involve students.
Johan van Zanten "Don't you threaten me with a dead fish."
(eggplant@walt.cc.utexas.edu) (from the movie "Withnail and I")awessels@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (07/08/90)
In article <33519@ut-emx.UUCP> eggplant@walt.cc.utexas.edu (johan van Zanten) writes: > Mr Forbes writes: >"If development costs for Hypercard are driving up the costs of making a Mac, >then I think we can safely ax this project. Most users could live without >Hypercard and be richer as a result." > I strongly disagree. One of the foundations Apple built its current >success upon was the Educational market. Currently, Apple is working very hard >to produce a low cost, color Macintosh as soon as possible (firing a high exec) But, the point Mr. Forbes was making was that if the cost of HyperCard development is adding to the cost of the Mac, and in so doing reducing the chances that educational institutions can buy them, that HyperCard should be dumped. There are already alternative HyperCard-like environments (as there were before HyperCard - at least as far as the educational market is concerned). >because of the educational demand. They have (reportedly) lost $500 million >in sales to IBM and IBM-compatibles, and it hurts. Uh, I question those figures. If Apple isn't really competing in a market, how could it lose money there. Apple doesn't price its computers for the educational market, and even if it di monochome doesn't cut it there anymore. > However, Macs will not be able to "infiltrate" the educational world if >they do not have some sort of easy-to-learn programming environment, where >teachers and students just beginning to use computers, can write sometimes- >lenghty and interesting programs, tailored to their students' needs. Such environments already exist. SuperCard, Plus, and the Course Builder courseware environments are here. HyperCard has done its job of popularizing that type of software. > I'm not shooting my mouth off, here. I work at the University of Texas' >College of Education Learning Resources Center. I help students in the >Computer Literacy classes use the Apple //e's to program in BASIC because Macs >are (at the moment) to expensive to use. Speaking from about 7 years of exper- >ience in BASIC, C, Pascal and HyperCard programming, i would recommend Hyper- >Card for anyone who wants to produce their own "program" but doesn't have the >time or orientation to learn a "real" higher language. The bottom line is getting "boxes" into the classroom. Clones are making big inroads because the price per box is low, NOT because of the existence of a HyperCard-like program. If Apple would just concentrate on getting a cheap, color box with Apple II software capability, they could compete at a reasonable level with clones (note that IBM, to my knowledge, is not a real competitor). The basic problem with Apple is that it has gone the way of other megalithic corporations and lost its ability to get to market innovative products. > If Apple "axes" HyperCard, they lose the Educational market they need >to survive. You cannot expect teachers to use MS Word, Excel or other >such "useful" programs as teaching aids in a 3rd grade classroom. You need >a programmable "tour" or "display" -type engine, which can use graphics and >sound to involve students. While this is true of a third grade classroom, it isn't necessarily so for higher grades. AppleWorks is a pretty popular teaching aid for some subject matter. Software isn't going to make or break Apple's ability to compete in the educational market, a low cost color box will. Apple needs to do this as quickly as possible, because those clones are marching on in. Our department here at The University of Texas markets software for the educational market. Teachers looking for software are looking for IBM software. The Apple II is fading from consideration for new purchases. It will be sad if, years from now, Apple's epitaph is "we made IBM use a GUI". - Allen
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (07/08/90)
----------------------------- In article <33521@ut-emx.UUCP>, awessels@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes... >In article <33519@ut-emx.UUCP> eggplant@walt.cc.utexas.edu (johan van Zanten) writes: > >> Mr Forbes writes: >>"If development costs for Hypercard are driving up the costs of making a Mac, >>then I think we can safely ax this project. Most users could live without >>Hypercard and be richer as a result." > >> I strongly disagree. One of the foundations Apple built its current >>success upon was the Educational market. Currently, Apple is working very hard >>to produce a low cost, color Macintosh as soon as possible (firing a high exec) >But, the point Mr. Forbes was making was that if the cost of HyperCard >development is adding to the cost of the Mac, and in so doing reducing the >chances that educational institutions can buy them, that HyperCard should be >dumped. There are already alternative HyperCard-like environments (as there >were before HyperCard - at least as far as the educational market is concerned). > >>because of the educational demand. They have (reportedly) lost $500 million >>in sales to IBM and IBM-compatibles, and it hurts. > >Uh, I question those figures. If Apple isn't really competing in a market, >how could it lose money there. Apple doesn't price its computers for the >educational market, and even if it di monochome doesn't cut it there >anymore. "Apple doesn't price its computers for the educational market"? Maybe, if you buy retail. But at many universities and community colleges you can get Macs for less than 50% of retail. A Plus for <$700, for instance. > >> However, Macs will not be able to "infiltrate" the educational world if >>they do not have some sort of easy-to-learn programming environment, where >>teachers and students just beginning to use computers, can write sometimes- >>lenghty and interesting programs, tailored to their students' needs. > >Such environments already exist. SuperCard, Plus, and the Course Builder >courseware environments are here. HyperCard has done its job of popularizing >that type of software. Sheesh, some people are never satisfied. What HyperCard does is add value to the system you've purchased. It does this in two ways. First, it's free, and it's a good program. SuperCard, et al., are not free. Second, it's a standard, and everybody who has a Mac has HyperCard. This allows everyone who has a Mac to run any stack, and anyone who has a Mac to write -- with relative ease -- a fairly sophisticated program with graphics, etc. which every other member of the Mac community can enjoy. [...] > >The basic problem with Apple is that it has gone the way of other megalithic >corporations and lost its ability to get to market innovative products. Nonsense. BTW, who do you see out there marketing "innovative" products. Clone makers? The original point of this thread -- which I think has been lost -- is that Apple cannot compete on price with clone makers, since Apple has a large R&D budget to support. This is true, whether you like it or not. Who do you think is paying for System 7, the NEA? No, we are. (Of course, I still think Macs could be priced somewhat lower, but that's a flame for a different time. :->). It is doubtful that HyperCard itself adds much to that R&D cost, since the original HyperCard was developed by a team of fewer than 10 people (mainly Bill Atkinson). As for whether HyperCard has value: look at the real world. Of course it does. Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
jgsmith@watson.bcm.tmc.edu (James G. Smith) (07/08/90)
I guess I can understand why some people are disappointed with HyperCard. HyperCard is not a program with an immediately obvious purpose. It's a development environment whose major advantage is an easily customizable interface. The situation is analogous to handing today's pc to someone in the 1950's, sans software. How do you explain to them what it's for? To me, the potential of HyperCard is mind boggling, simply because I know what could be done with it, especially in combination with the net. A person could be able to look up any book in the Library of Congress, make use of any on line service, navigate through all sorts of databases, either local, national, or international, all without having to know anything about networks, computers, or software. All you need is for someone to put the databases online, and someone to write the hypercard interfaces. * (The people who could/should/will make the best use of HyperCard need not ever know they're using HyperCard.)
awessels@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (07/09/90)
In article <1990Jul7.225429.22821@midway.uchicago.edu> gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >"Apple doesn't price its computers for the educational market"? Maybe, if you >buy retail. But at many universities and community colleges you can get Macs >for less than 50% of retail. A Plus for <$700, for instance. A Mac Plus is not a Macintosh system. You need at least another 800k drive to make it functional. Also, my point was made with the perspective of hisory in mind. The price drop in the Plus is typical of Apple when it plans on discontinuing a model. Apple should have made this move a year ago. >Nonsense. BTW, who do you see out there marketing "innovative" products. >Clone makers? Innovative not wrt new products, but innovative wrt giving more price/ performance. Apple can market both a high-end line to recoup the R&D budget, and a low end to build a mass market. Maybe if Apple could deliver the numbers that give clone buyers leverage in buying other products for their machines, people wouldn't gripe so much about paying for the box. >The original point of this thread -- which I think has been lost -- is that >Apple cannot compete on price with clone makers, since Apple has a large R&D >budget to support. This is true, whether you like it or not. Who do you think >is paying for System 7, the NEA? No, we are. (Of course, I still think Macs >could be priced somewhat lower, but that's a flame for a different time. :->). >It is doubtful that HyperCard itself adds much to that R&D cost, since the >original HyperCard was developed by a team of fewer than 10 people (mainly Bill >Atkinson). As for whether HyperCard has value: look at the real world. Of >course it does. I don't think anyone has said that Apple could sell a machine for less than a clone. But Apple's current moves have been way too slow and been in response only to massive complaints around the industry. Of course, the clones have been making large inroads to the market they are beginning to address and so these changes have more to compete against. I'm sure HyperCard has value, but I'm not so sure the value is to the end-user. Most people I know who have Macs don't use HyperCard for much of anything. The advantage of HyperCard is in development, and I have yet to see how that advantage has passed on to end users. Possibly in the number of products available - except that many of those are HyperCard devlopment aids.
siegman@sierra.STANFORD.EDU (siegman) (07/09/90)
My two opinions on this thread: 1) I won't express an opinion pro or con on the value of Hypercard as a programming system for amateur programmers, or as a sales tool for Macs -- though I some time ago decided there was no stackware I was finding useful, and de-accessioned HyperCard completely. (Maybe getting a CD-ROM drive would change that.) But I'll point out once again -- hope this doesn't get tiresome -- that for the amateur, occasional, part-time programmer (at any level from high-school student to full professor) who wants to write a few real Mac-like programs now and then, to do real work, QuickBASIC provides a superb, powerful, easy to learn and easy to use real Mac programming environment and language. Certain interface-intensive tasks I'd certainly chose to implement in HyperCard. But QuickBASIC programming on the Mac, even with interface considerations included, is certainly no harder to learn or use than is HyperCard scripting, especially if you want to "write a program"; and the hardware and memory requirements are very much less. (And you can end up with a nice small free-standing clickable application.) 2) IMHO the debates raging in this and other groups over the relative merits of the Mac versus Windows 3.0 are largely irrelevant. A very large number of novice computer buyers (and a large number of elementary and high school educators needing to replace their Apple IIs) are going to look at Windows 3.0, and say, "Hey, that's great!! ... Just like the Mac!" (whether that's true or not) ". And then they're going to look at clone prices, and at the total system they can get for their limited dollars (and the warranties), and say "And a lot cheaper too!!" And they're going to buy the clone with Windows. (And developers are going to look at, what is it, 1 million Macs, and 7 (?) million PCs and growing, out there, and decide where to steer their creativity.) I don't think Apple yet really believes this will happen. We'll see...
ubi@ginger.sri.com (Ron Ueberschaer x4399) (07/10/90)
I have mixed emotions about this argument. On one hand, I have to agree with the original observation: No one uses HyperCard. It's one of those tools that are great fun to play with when you first get them, but don't hold up as being truly useful. One problem with HyperCard is that it requires a lot of memory. Keeping it open, even with MultiFinder and several megs available, can significantly affect performance if you've also got a couple of other apps/DAs running. On the other hand, HyperCard is quite a departure from traditional applications. It's really neat how everything is linked together. It's kind of like the original 1984 Mac--this cool new toy with which to waste time, but not powerful enough (yet) to be a real tool. When all Macs have 32 megs of memory and fast gigabyte optical disks, HC (or probably SC) stacks will be used by everybody. I still wish Apple had the generosity to supply a real text editor and a draw/paint program with new systems. It's frustrating to pay so much for the system, and then be limited to TeachText and HyperCard's limited draw/paint tools.
jamesth@microsoft.UUCP (James THIELE) (07/10/90)
In article <13997@unix.SRI.COM> ubi@ginger.UUCP (Ron Ueberschaer x4399) writes: >I have mixed emotions about this argument. On one hand, I have to >agree with the original observation: No one uses HyperCard. It's one >of those tools that are great fun to play with when you first get them, >but don't hold up as being truly useful. Sorry, but you are quite wrong. To quote my friend, Charlie Faddis, "James invented the stack that I earn my living with." Charlie is a consulting engineer with a family of five to support, who uses a stack *every* working day to develop and test microprocessor based process control devices. It is a combination cross-assembler for the Intel 8051 family of microprocessors and testing environment. It is a huge improvement over traditional cross-assemblers. It started as a simple assembler/linker based on a somewhat clever approach to writing an assembler in HC, and has evolved into an integrated cross delelopment environment. Need a new test? Add a button. Need to remember how to wire up the system? Use the drawing tools to put the diagram on a card in the stack. Note that I'm not talking about a *toy* assembler. It supports the full machine with exactly Intel syntax, and doesn't assemble modules that don't change, giving it speed similar to old fashioned assemblers. Oh, and I wrote the prototype of the assembler, which worked and loaded code in five hours. James Thiele -- microsoft!jamesth
sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Sho Kuwamoto) (07/10/90)
In article <13997@unix.SRI.COM> ubi@ginger.UUCP (Ron Ueberschaer x4399) writes: [...] >One problem with HyperCard is >that it requires a lot of memory. Keeping it open, even with >MultiFinder and several megs available, can significantly affect >performance if you've also got a couple of other apps/DAs running. > >On the other hand, HyperCard is quite a departure from traditional >applications. It's really neat how everything is linked together. >It's kind of like the original 1984 Mac--this cool new toy with which >to waste time, but not powerful enough (yet) to be a real tool. [...] I tend to disagree. I don't use Hypercard much, but it's not for lack of memory. I have 5M and don't use it. I suspect that if I had a IIfx with Virtual that I still wouldn't be using it. I think you came closer in the second paragraph. Hypercard is not powerful enough to be a real tool. It's not the underlying hardware, but the software itself. HyperTalk has enough ideosyncracies to warrant a long bout of hair-pulling. The only real uses I've seen for it have been * glorified address book * somewhat interactive viewgraph-like things I also think HyperCard is a neat thing, but it just doesn't pan out for the average user. It's overly complicated for doing "simple" things like taking a field of numbers and adding them up. You may as well use a spreadsheet. It's too hard to program anything elaborate. My gut feeling is that even BASIC can be easier to program in for the novice user. Perhaps it's just my lack of familiarity with HyperTalk that leads me to this conclusion. Still, I feel that HyperCard, as it stands, is next to useless when you get right down to it. I've been complaining, but don't have any answers. I'm not saying, "Apple should have done it *this* way." I'm saying that HyperCard has a lot of promise, but it has a way to go before it allows the average joe to write even the most trivial of programs. I remember John Sculley having said something to the effect of, "now I can finally program a computer." Uh, yeah. -Sho -- sho@risc.com <<-- And I have yet to see a HyperCard stack that I would come close to buying. In fact, the only FREE one that I've bothered to get is the Tech Notes stack.
pease@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Pease) (07/11/90)
In article <33543@ut-emx.UUCP>, awessels@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes... > >I'm sure HyperCard has value, but I'm not so sure the value is to the end-user. >Most people I know who have Macs don't use HyperCard for much of anything. >The advantage of HyperCard is in development, and I have yet to see how that >advantage has passed on to end users. Possibly in the number of products >available - except that many of those are HyperCard devlopment aids. Hypercard is the most useful program (except for word processor) that I use on a computer. I have written my own stack to perform configuration control activities on a major sofware development effort. I use this stack to keep track of what stage an program is in, who is doing what to a program, are there any problems reported with a program, does a change require documentation revision, and to keep history on changes made to any program (of which there are around 200 application functions and about 20 support subroutine packages. These programs are being developed in two separate locations and are tested on 5 different computer systems. My stack keeps information on all of this and automatically creates a summary report and a current problems list which which is place in a file and is automatically brought into a word processor for final editing/cleanup before distributing to project personnel. It has made my job as configuration manager much easier and more productive. I would not even consider buying a home computer which does not have Hypercard or its equivalent. I also use it to manage my home maintenance activities and by flower and vegetable gardens as I track the plant variaties. Phil Pease My witty disclaimer - everything I perceive, through either sensory or extrasensory means, has been filtered to such an extent that you had better not attempt to attribute anything I say to anyone else.
cpk@valideast.COM (NANJIL NESAN) (07/11/90)
My colllegue had been trying to persuade me to use hypercard. And finally I did and in two days I developed things in hypercard which would have taken me atleast 4 weeks in a standard C/unix environment. I look at hypercard, in particular hypertalk as one of the best implementations of an object oriented language. It didn't take me long to realize that it is not a toy but a very powerful programming environment. -- C. Kumar Valid Logic Systems, PCB Division, 2 Omni Way Chelmsford, MA. (508) 256-2300 !uunet!valideast!cpk
chad@norge.enet.dec.com (Chad Leigh) (07/11/90)
This whole discussion is pretty funny. I've seen a lot of good stacks out there, both commercal and PD/Shareware. For example, there are some good MIDI stacks that are quite powerful, Macrecorder ships sample manipulating stacks, there are some great games available as stacks, and devlopers know that every Mac owner will have Hypercard so it encourages software development. Chad chad@norge.enet.dec.com Vi elsker dette landet! ----------------------------------------------
dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) (07/11/90)
In article <3890@newton.physics.purdue.edu> sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Sho Kuwamoto) writes: >My >gut feeling is that even BASIC can be easier to program in for the >novice user. My own gut feeling is that the novice user isn't going to do anything remotely like programming, no matter what the language. You should also differentiate between HyperTalk and HyperCard. HyperTalk is so-so as an "easy" programming language. What makes HyperCard so nice is 1) The object oriented philosophy 2) direct manipulation of UI-elements [via the button and field tools, which are convenient to get to] 3) re-usability of objects [e.g., you can cut and paste WORKING buttons and fields]. None of these things are directly related to HyperTalk. A friend recently showed me a program he's writing in QuickBASIC. He'd done a little programming in college in Fortran. I'm positive he could have written a better-looking product in HyperCard in half the time (and saved the $100 he spent on QuickBASIC). >Still, I feel that HyperCard, as it stands, is >next to useless when you get right down to it. Smile when you say that. Lots of people get good use out of HyperCard. I program in MPW C for a living. At home, I have 1 (count it, 1) C program that I have written that I (occasionally) use. 90% of my time at my computer is spent in HyperCard, using stacks I've written to: Manage my checkbook (including sophisticated reporting) Keep track of my credit cards Manage my record collection Track and graph gas mileage Print paper inserts for cassette tapes Keep track of home repairs And yes, a glorified address book which also dials the phone ...and other things I'm forgetting All these little tasks benefit from automation. I'd never do them in C; the overhead's too high. I do own Microsoft BASIC, but it's far "clunkier" and harder to use and program (for me) than HyperCard. HyperCard is NOT useless. Useless to you, perhaps. -- Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office Internet: s-dorner@uiuc.edu UUCP: {convex,uunet}!uiucuxc!dorner
ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) (07/12/90)
sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Sho Kuwamoto) writes: >I also think HyperCard is a neat thing, but it just doesn't pan out >for the average user... It's too hard to program anything elaborate. My >gut feeling is that even BASIC can be easier to program in for the >novice user. ??? If HyperTalk and BASIC are too difficult for novice programmers, what programming languages are not?
thom@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (Thom Gillespie) (07/12/90)
In article <3890@newton.physics.purdue.edu> sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Sho Kuwamoto) writes: >>On the other hand, HyperCard is quite a departure from traditional >>applications. It's really neat how everything is linked together. >>It's kind of like the original 1984 Mac--this cool new toy with which >>to waste time, but not powerful enough (yet) to be a real tool. >[...] > >I tend to disagree. I don't use Hypercard much, but it's not for lack >of memory. I have 5M and don't use it. I suspect that if I had a >IIfx with Virtual that I still wouldn't be using it. > > >I also think HyperCard is a neat thing, but it just doesn't pan out >for the average user... It's overly complicated for doing "simple" things >use a spreadsheet. It's too hard to program anything elaborate. My >gut feeling is that even BASIC can be easier to program in for the >novice user. >... Still, I feel that HyperCard, as it stands, is >next to useless when you get right down to it. I've been complaining, >but don't have any answers. I'm not saying, "Apple should have done >it *this* way." I'm saying that HyperCard has a lot of promise, but >it has a way to go before it allows the average joe to write even the >most trivial of programs. I remember John Sculley having said >something to the effect of, "now I can finally program a computer." >Uh, yeah. > >-Sho So exactly what is an 'average' user? Why did thousands of applications spring into the public domain after HyperCard was introduced. For example, In Berkeley BMUG (Berk Mac User Group) has always had a lot of PD/shar material. Within a year the HyperCard stacks were out numbering everything they had ... John Sculley sure was doing a lot of programming. To me an 'average' person thinks (correctly) that a 'pointer' is a dog with white fur and black spots from Germany. This sort of person also has lot's of 'real' world knowledge and skill that they'd like to impart, so they use HyperCard which allows the 'domain expert' to be in charge, not the hacker I'm working on some computer assisted instruction material in Hebrew studies. We need something quick , which can be modified by the domain expert (not me) and which can grow quickly in directions never anticipated. We didn't pick C++ for this job. There are similar projects at Berkeley in Chinese & Japanese and I'd imagine others. The usual response it that it will later be converted to a real language ... my guess is no, 'real' languages aren't very friendly or flexible. HyperCard will expand into SuperCard & ToolBook and the genie will not fit back into the bottle. Paul Heckel predicted this in his book "The Elements of Friendly Software Design" where he pointed out that in the 'old' days of film only trained engineers made movies -- they were pretty bad. At a certain point you got the artists like Orson Wells and Fellini and film gets interesting. HyperCard is doing the same to the medium of computers -- making it more interesting. The engineers will fade into the background and provide support but they will also be kept away from the 'average' user -- as should be. Just an average Joe --Thom Gillespie
dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) (07/12/90)
In article <103841@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes: >??? If HyperTalk and BASIC are too difficult for novice programmers, >what programming languages are not? Nobody said "for the novice programmer". We were discussing the "novice user". A "novice programmer" has already surmounted the biggest obstacle a reasonably intelligent person faces: irrational fear of programming. Only a small percentage of "novice users" overcome that fear (IMHO; I have no documentation on this.) My $0.02 on the novice programmer is that HyperCard is a nice environment, cause good results can be had with very minimal effort. This builds confidence. -- Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office Internet: s-dorner@uiuc.edu UUCP: {convex,uunet}!uiucuxc!dorner