michaelh@uhunix1.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Michael A. Hoffhines) (09/18/90)
Of late, I have been experiencing a problem of 'creeping failures'. Primarily, unexpected quitting from Word 4.0 and White Knight 11.06 with error number 1 or 2 upon launching. A repeat launch usually works but it doesn't make me feel any better about the system. I have been through the 6.0.5 problems with the system heap and thought that all was ok. Unfortunately, things seem to continue to get more and more unstable (kind of like the middle-east and the us economy, I guess). Disinfectant 2.1 reports that many files have resource forks that it cannot analyze. This has been a problem in the past that goes away only temporarily after I refresh the file with an original copy. Now Fast Back II simply hangs when it gets to the last file of a back-up when in the past FBII has worked fine. I am tired of tip-toeing around this fragile beast and have run out of ideas as to what to try. Any thoughtful suggestions gladly entertained. On the software side, I have a minimum of INITs (Superclock 3.9, Suitcase II 1.2.6, Disinfectant, and AfterDark 2.0h). The hardware end looks like: SE/30 with 5 M and an external 170 M Wren VI drive from APS. I am more and more suspicious of the hard-drive given that the software has not changed for some time while frequency of errors continues to rise. Any recommendations for a decent hard-drive analysis program (SpinRite for the Mac, anyone)? Thanks in advance, Mike. --
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (09/18/90)
michaelh@uhunix1.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Michael A. Hoffhines) writes: >Of late, I have been experiencing a problem of 'creeping failures'. Primarily, >unexpected quitting from Word 4.0 and White Knight 11.06 with error number >1 or 2 upon launching. I usually see this kind of behavior when I've corrupted my System file. Lots of random weird stuff happening -- this means (everyone repeat after me): It's time to REINSTALL! (can you tell I do tech support?) >This has been a problem in the past that goes away only temporarily >after I refresh the file with an original copy. Now Fast Back II simply hangs >when it gets to the last file of a back-up when in the past FBII has worked >fine. This may mean you have corrupted directories and whatever, too. >I am tired of tip-toeing around this fragile beast and have run out of ideas >as to what to try. Any thoughtful suggestions gladly entertained. Good for you. I never trust my data to a system I'm not convinced is solid. Reinstalling doesn't take long and is a great way to get you to a known state fast. >On the software side, I have a minimum of INITs (Superclock 3.9, Suitcase II >1.2.6, Disinfectant, and AfterDark 2.0h). The hardware end looks like: SE/30 >with 5 M and an external 170 M Wren VI drive from APS. That looks good. >I am more and more suspicious of the hard-drive given that the software has >not changed for some time while frequency of errors continues to rise. You may not have changed the software, but doesn't imply it's not changed. System crashes are a great way to watch the System file slowly go through bitrot if you're not lucky. Try this: o Pull out your system disks. Boot from System Tools and then run Disk First Aid and see what happens. o If you have SUM, have it check your directory structure. It catches stuff DFA doesn't. o If you're paranoid, you can do a low-level test of the disk -- HD SC Setup lets you verify formatting on supported disks, many other formatters do as well. I find this is generally overkill. Something corrupts you at that level, you'll be dead long before this. o Now, reinstall. It's important -- critical, actually -- that if you think the System file is corrupted you don't touch it. DO NOT REINSTALL OVER AN EXISTING SYSTEM FILE if you aren't sure it's okay, so the first thing you have to do is debless the folder. I do that by opening the system folder creating an empty folder and copying the finder into it. o Run the installer. Install the pieces you need. Don't just copy stuff off the install disks -- you'll end up with stuff on your disks you don't need. Let the Installer build a more compact system file. o Now, all you need to do is merge what's in your own System Folder with the new one. The only trick: since the old System file is potentialy corrupt, anything that's in it is trash -- don't touch it. Once you're sure the new system folder boots, throw the old system and folder files away. Yes, that implies that all those neat things you've got stored in the system file are gone: that's why there's Suitcase. If you copy resources out of a corrupted file, you may well just copy the corruption with you. o Note that the Installer installs versions of Times, Helvetica and Courier whether or not you want them. If you have them in separate suitcases, make sure you edit them out of the System file. Any time you see system flakies, don't tolerate them. Expunge them before they cost you your data. They don't go away if they're ignored, they get worse. Better to catch them early and get back to work. -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> chuq@apple.com <+> [This is myself speaking] mumble..mumble...mumble...mumbleLemieuxSCORE!!!!!!!...mumble...mumble..mumble
isle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Ken Hancock) (09/19/90)
In article <44919@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >o Now, reinstall. It's important -- critical, actually -- that if you think >the System file is corrupted you don't touch it. DO NOT REINSTALL OVER AN >EXISTING SYSTEM FILE if you aren't sure it's okay, so the first thing you >have to do is debless the folder. I do that by opening the system folder >creating an empty folder and copying the finder into it. Hurray! So often people forget that very important step. I don't know how many times I've heard people tell others to "just run the installer and reinstall the System Software". My first step is always boot of the installer and then TRASH the System file. If you use Suitcase, it's nice and easy. I keep Apple Standard DAs, Fonts in the System (everything else in Suitcases and opened via Suicase) and if I need to reinstall, nothing ends up changing. One step and it only takes 5 minutes. Ken -- Ken Hancock | This account needs a new home in MA... Isle Systems | Can you provide a link for it? isle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu | It doesn't bite... :-)
chuq@Apple.COM (The Wandering Phew) (09/19/90)
isle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Ken Hancock) writes: >My first step is always boot >of the installer and then TRASH the System file. I actually wish our manuals said something like this. If you have a corrupted System file and install something into it, then by all rights it's STILL going to be corrupted. But people do it and wonder why things still crash. >If you use Suitcase, >it's nice and easy. I keep Apple Standard DAs, Fonts in the System >(everything else in Suitcases and opened via Suicase) and if I need >to reinstall, nothing ends up changing. One step and it only takes >5 minutes. My system's not that simple. By the time I end up installing the System, DAL, Clear Access, CD-ROM drivers, EtherTalk and the other things that have to be installed into the System, I've got about a 14 disk set that I need to do every time I re-install. But if I didn't actively keep stuff out of my System file, It'd take me hours. I can reinstall in about 15-20 minutes, even with all those toys. (another hint: build a System Folder that has everything you need in it. Then once you're sure it's all set, use StuffIT to create a .SIT file of the whole thing. Reinstalling becomes trivial then. VERY useful if you're crashing your system folder every 30 minutes or so...) -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> chuq@apple.com <+> [This is myself speaking] mumble..mumble...mumble...mumbleLemieuxSCORE!!!!!!!...mumble...mumble..mumble
dan@hpnmdla.HP.COM (Dan Pleasant) (09/19/90)
/ hpnmdla:comp.sys.mac.misc / chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) / 6:43 am Sep 18, 1990 / michaelh@uhunix1.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Michael A. Hoffhines) writes: >Of late, I have been experiencing a problem of 'creeping failures'. Primarily, >unexpected quitting from Word 4.0 and White Knight 11.06 with error number >1 or 2 upon launching. I usually see this kind of behavior when I've corrupted my System file. Lots of random weird stuff happening -- this means (everyone repeat after me): It's time to REINSTALL! (can you tell I do tech support?) >This has been a problem in the past that goes away only temporarily >after I refresh the file with an original copy. Now Fast Back II simply hangs >when it gets to the last file of a back-up when in the past FBII has worked >fine. This may mean you have corrupted directories and whatever, too. >I am tired of tip-toeing around this fragile beast and have run out of ideas >as to what to try. Any thoughtful suggestions gladly entertained. Good for you. I never trust my data to a system I'm not convinced is solid. Reinstalling doesn't take long and is a great way to get you to a known state fast. >On the software side, I have a minimum of INITs (Superclock 3.9, Suitcase II >1.2.6, Disinfectant, and AfterDark 2.0h). The hardware end looks like: SE/30 >with 5 M and an external 170 M Wren VI drive from APS. That looks good. >I am more and more suspicious of the hard-drive given that the software has >not changed for some time while frequency of errors continues to rise. You may not have changed the software, but doesn't imply it's not changed. System crashes are a great way to watch the System file slowly go through bitrot if you're not lucky. Try this: o Pull out your system disks. Boot from System Tools and then run Disk First Aid and see what happens. o If you have SUM, have it check your directory structure. It catches stuff DFA doesn't. o If you're paranoid, you can do a low-level test of the disk -- HD SC Setup lets you verify formatting on supported disks, many other formatters do as well. I find this is generally overkill. Something corrupts you at that level, you'll be dead long before this. o Now, reinstall. It's important -- critical, actually -- that if you think the System file is corrupted you don't touch it. DO NOT REINSTALL OVER AN EXISTING SYSTEM FILE if you aren't sure it's okay, so the first thing you have to do is debless the folder. I do that by opening the system folder creating an empty folder and copying the finder into it. o Run the installer. Install the pieces you need. Don't just copy stuff off the install disks -- you'll end up with stuff on your disks you don't need. Let the Installer build a more compact system file. o Now, all you need to do is merge what's in your own System Folder with the new one. The only trick: since the old System file is potentialy corrupt, anything that's in it is trash -- don't touch it. Once you're sure the new system folder boots, throw the old system and folder files away. Yes, that implies that all those neat things you've got stored in the system file are gone: that's why there's Suitcase. If you copy resources out of a corrupted file, you may well just copy the corruption with you. o Note that the Installer installs versions of Times, Helvetica and Courier whether or not you want them. If you have them in separate suitcases, make sure you edit them out of the System file. Any time you see system flakies, don't tolerate them. Expunge them before they cost you your data. They don't go away if they're ignored, they get worse. Better to catch them early and get back to work. -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> chuq@apple.com <+> [This is myself speaking] mumble..mumble...mumble...mumbleLemieuxSCORE!!!!!!!...mumble...mumble..mumble ----------
dan@hpnmdla.HP.COM (Dan Pleasant) (09/19/90)
My apologies for the posting immediately preceding this one. I typed the wrong thing by accident, and even though I tried to kill the posting not more than 30 seconds later the mailer refused to cooperate, saying "the message has already been sent to the network". (Damn machines are too fast!) I'd just like to add a short warning to this string: >>... >>unexpected quitting from Word 4.0 and White Knight 11.06 with error number >>1 or 2 upon launching. > >I usually see this kind of behavior when I've corrupted my System file. Lots >of random weird stuff happening -- this means (everyone repeat after me): > > It's time to REINSTALL! (can you tell I do tech support?) > >>This has been a problem in the past that goes away only temporarily >>after I refresh the file with an original copy. Now Fast Back II simply hangs >>when it gets to the last file of a back-up when in the past FBII has worked >>fine. > >This may mean you have corrupted directories and whatever, too. > First, kudos to you for backing up your disk (and thanks for using Fastback II!). But if your disk is *really* trashed, then there is some risk that you're backing up garbage. If you have corrupted directories then there is some likelihood that you're going to end up erasing your entire disk and re-installing everything from scratch. But if your files are all trashed, and you back up your disk now, then Fastback II will happily restore garbage to your disk later. The solution? Don't throw away those old backup floppies! Good luck, and I hope this warning is entirely unnecessary. Dan Pleasant [One of Fastback II's authors]
roland@dna.lth.se (Roland Mansson) (09/22/90)
In article <44932@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (The Wandering Phew) writes: >(another hint: build a System Folder that has everything you need in it. >Then once you're sure it's all set, use StuffIT to create a .SIT file of the >whole thing. Reinstalling becomes trivial then. VERY useful if you're >crashing your system folder every 30 minutes or so...) Actually, since > 90% of those problems are with the system FILE itself, it is often enough to have a copy of the system file. Create a folder inside the system folder, and always have a recent copy of the system file there. When you have problems, boot from a floppy, trash the system FILE, and copy the copy of the system file to the system folder. >mumble..mumble...mumble...mumbleLemieuxSCORE!!!!!!!...mumble...mumble..mumble -- Roland Mansson, Lund University Computing Center, Box 783, S220 07 Lund, Sweden Phone: +46-46107436 Fax: +46-46138225 Bitnet: roland_m@seldc52 Internet: roland.mansson@ldc.lu.se or roland.mansson%ldc.lu.se@uunet.uu.net UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!sunic!ldc.lu.se!roland.mansson AppleLink: SW0022