gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (09/28/90)
-------- When I've seen a Next releated thread in this group, I generally try to steer it over to comp.sys.next, since I get tired of reading flames against the Mac and Apple (besides, Mac people are flamed over there). But I've been thinking about it: it's true that Next may be out of business in a couple of years. And it's true that it will never have the impact that the Mac had; it's a bit late for that. But it's also true that -- probably primarily out of desperation -- they are offering quality machines at outstandingly low prices, particularly for university people (despite my sig, I'm not one, unfortunately :->). I just saw a note in the Next group which said that Stanford will be selling the minimal Next config for less then $3200! Think about that: an '040 machine with HD, and with rights to lotsa software, for $3200. Sure, the Next has lots of negatives, and I'm always glad to point them out. Some of them in this low price model are: grayscale, and never more than 4096 colors even if you upgrade to color -- that is you can kiss 24-bit goodbye; not much room on the included HD for all the software you have license to, and about $1600 upgrade to the next larger HD size; etc. But still....it's a pretty nice deal. So, my question is: does anyone have any speculation on how Apple will respond? Surely the high-end Macs, in particular the IIfx, have become less competitive. I don't expect the Mac to come down to Next's prices; not unless Next starts selling mega amounts. But some more competitiveness would be nice. Any thoughts? (And please, no "Next will win!" opinions; I'm so sick of hearing Next agitprop I could puke!). Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
ewm@mdavcr.UUCP (Eric W. Mitchell) (09/29/90)
In article <1990Sep28.050506.19522@midway.uchicago.edu> gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >Sure, the Next has lots of negatives, and I'm always glad to point them out. >Some of them in this low price model are: grayscale, and never more than 4096 >colors even if you upgrade to color -- that is you can kiss 24-bit goodbye; not >much room on the included HD for all the software you have license to, and >about $1600 upgrade to the next larger HD size; etc. I think you are wrong here. You can buy a NeXT slab with 16 bit colour on the board ($7995), or you can buy a 32 bit "NeXT Dimension" colour board (with a 33MHz i860 chip, 30,000 shaded polygons/second, 12MB (?) RAM) for about $3995 (retail). This is expensive for a colour board, but not bad when you consider the performance. As for the HD, go buy a external SCSI 300+MB HD from a third party for between $1000 and $2000. Not a bad cost, really. Cost out what a similiar mac would set you back. >But still....it's a pretty nice deal. I agree. >So, my question is: does anyone have any speculation on how Apple will respond? >Surely the high-end Macs, in particular the IIfx, have become less competitive. >I don't expect the Mac to come down to Next's prices; not unless Next starts >selling mega amounts. But some more competitiveness would be nice. > >Any thoughts? (And please, no "Next will win!" opinions; I'm so sick of >hearing Next agitprop I could puke!). I have owned Macs for years, but I have recently been getting more and more frustrated with Apple. I am sick of hearing the "R&D" argument for their high prices. Maybe they should lose their "Not Invented Here" phobia and stop trying to do everything themselves. This splits their R&D dollar far too thinly. Thus, instead of producing really up to date products, they are constantly playing catch up with the rest of the industry. Let's face it. The only thing Macs have going for them is their user interface. They are not particularly technically innovative. I applaud Apple for their sense of vision, but I think they need glasses. As for what I think Apple will do - I have resigned myself to seeing little or no change in their corporate direction/culture. Their "low-cost" Macs sound under powered and over priced to me. Instead of producing a really competitive system, their rationalle seems to be to cripple one of their higher-end systems (or marginally improve a low-end system) and cut the price a bit. The only way Apple is going to be competitive is to either slash the price of it's entire line in half and bring out a new high powered (040) system at the price of a IIcx. Sounds like fantasy land to me. I have been waiting for Apple to wise up for too long. I'm not sure that "NeXT will win", but, quite honestly, I am almost prepared to put my support behind them (with $$$ - buy a machine) because I believe they are going where Apple would be right now, if they weren't running the company like IBM. I really hope NeXT is successful. I also hope Apple is successful. It may be that success for NeXT will put pressure on Apple and make them a little more hungry/competitive. Eric disclaimer: All standard disclaimers apply. All non-standard disclaimers apply. All truly bizarre disclaimers apply.
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (09/29/90)
------ In article <1030@mdavcr.UUCP>, ewm@mdavcr.UUCP (Eric W. Mitchell) writes... >In article <1990Sep28.050506.19522@midway.uchicago.edu> gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >>Sure, the Next has lots of negatives, and I'm always glad to point them out. >>Some of them in this low price model are: grayscale, and never more than 4096 >>colors even if you upgrade to color -- that is you can kiss 24-bit goodbye; not >>much room on the included HD for all the software you have license to, and >>about $1600 upgrade to the next larger HD size; etc. > >I think you are wrong here. You can buy a NeXT slab with 16 bit colour >on the board ($7995), or you can buy a 32 bit "NeXT Dimension" colour board >(with a 33MHz i860 chip, 30,000 shaded polygons/second, 12MB (?) RAM) for >about $3995 (retail). This is expensive for a colour board, but not bad >when you consider the performance. Right. But I don't think you can put the "Next Dimension" board in the the slab. So it's 16 bit (really 12 bit I think) for the slab -> 4096. But let's not start a thread on this, since we can all read the real facts in the Next group. >As for the HD, go buy a external SCSI 300+MB HD from a third party for >between $1000 and $2000. Not a bad cost, really. Cost out what a >similiar mac would set you back. I think about the same. My only point here was that $5000 didn't really get you all the software you have rights to under Next. [opinions about Apple] > >I really hope NeXT is successful. I also hope Apple is successful. It >may be that success for NeXT will put pressure on Apple and make them a >little more hungry/competitive. Sounds good to me. Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (10/01/90)
In-Reply-To: message from gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu Not wanting to really get into the NeXT =vs= Mac discussion...but I would like to correct your statement that the new NeXTStations can't have more than 4096 colors, and that you can kiss 24bit color goodbye because that's a crock. The 4096 onscreen colors in in NeXT's "low-end" color system. You get 32bit (24bits for color) accelerated graphics if you buy the NeXT i860 graphics card. Sure, it's just over $7K, but then again, I've seen the prices for some of the Mac video cards... In a few weeks, I'll have more than 4096 colors on my A3000-25/50 system... Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.0 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^) ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | Dual A3000 based, custom Help keep the | computer graphics, RealWorld: Sean Cunningham competition // | animation, presentation, Voice: (512) 994-1602 under \X/ | simulation, accident- | scene re-creation, and ...better life through creative computing... | recreation...(whew!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
lbl@applelink.apple.com (Barry Locklear) (10/02/90)
In article <4737@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: > Not wanting to really get into the NeXT =vs= Mac discussion...but I would like > to correct your statement that the new NeXTStations can't have more than 4096 > colors, and that you can kiss 24bit color goodbye because that's a crock. > > The 4096 onscreen colors in in NeXT's "low-end" color system. You get 32bit > (24bits for color) accelerated graphics if you buy the NeXT i860 graphics > card. Sure, it's just over $7K, but then again, I've seen the prices for some > of the Mac video cards... The color card is called NeXTDimension, costs $3995, and is available for the cube only. They are *not* available for the NeXTStation. The color NeXTStation can display 4096 colors out of a palette of 16.7 million. It also has 4 bits of alpha, making a total of 16 bits/pixel. This is the only color option present at this time. In additon, there is no i860 option available for the NeXTStation. This information was presented at the NeXT intro on September 18th. Barry Locklear Trying to add some light to the heat
minich@d.cs.okstate.edu (Robert Minich) (10/02/90)
From article <10525@goofy.Apple.COM>, by lbl@applelink.apple.com (Barry Locklear): | In article <4737@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: |> Not wanting to really get into the NeXT =vs= Mac discussion...but I would like |> to correct your statement that the new NeXTStations can't have more than 4096 |> colors, and that you can kiss 24bit color goodbye because that's a crock. |> |> The 4096 onscreen colors in in NeXT's "low-end" color system. You get 32bit |> (24bits for color) accelerated graphics if you buy the NeXT i860 graphics |> card. Sure, it's just over $7K, but then again, I've seen the prices for some |> of the Mac video cards... | | The color card is called NeXTDimension, costs $3995, and is available for | the cube only. They are *not* available for the NeXTStation. The color | NeXTStation can display 4096 colors out of a palette of 16.7 million. It ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | also has 4 bits of alpha, making a total of 16 bits/pixel. This is the only | color option present at this time. In additon, there is no i860 option available | for the NeXTStation. This information was presented at the NeXT intro on | September 18th. | | Barry Locklear | Trying to add some light to the heat Bzzt. The nextstation w/ color has 16 bits/pixel: 4R + 4G + 4B + 4 Alpha. That's 4096 colors out of 4096. No palette involved there. Add a pair of (sun) glasses to the hot, blinding light. -- |_ /| | Robert Minich | |\'o.O' | Oklahoma State University| A fanatic is one who sticks to |=(___)= | minich@d.cs.okstate.edu | his guns -- whether they are | U | - Ackphtth | loaded or not.
ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) (10/06/90)
Where is it that Apple and NeXT are in any serious
competition with each other? (In ego perhaps) but
Joe Average is not going to run out and buy a Unix
box. If you think they are, Why can't you buy a Sun
or other Unix box at the local computer store? (outside Xenix)
I think that its somewhat obvious that Unix is not for the
masses no matter what front end you stick on it. Software
for Unix platforms is usually incredibly spendy as well.
So It is my opinion that Apple is not really in any
significant competition with NeXT with some certain
Market exceptions that I don't think are all that
significant..... I could be wrong, but I doubt it..
--
Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862
3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie.
Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything)
UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COMminich@d.cs.okstate.edu (Robert Minich) (10/06/90)
by ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger): | | Where is it that Apple and NeXT are in any serious | competition with each other? (In ego perhaps) but | Joe Average is not going to run out and buy a Unix | box. If you think they are, Why can't you buy a Sun | or other Unix box at the local computer store? (outside Xenix) | I think that its somewhat obvious that Unix is not for the | masses no matter what front end you stick on it. Software | for Unix platforms is usually incredibly spendy as well. | So It is my opinion that Apple is not really in any | significant competition with NeXT with some certain | Market exceptions that I don't think are all that ^^^^^^^^^^ | significant..... I could be wrong, but I doubt it.. So, the IIfx and the IIci are not that significant to Apple's product line? They're aimed at a similar audience who wants and can afford to pay for some performance. In that market, NeXT has a basic offering that, IMHO as a die hard Mac user, walks all over the IIfx at a third the cost. (Add up monitor, enet card, some software, ...) The new NeXTs won't magically rise to preeminence because of (1) it's heart of UNIX (2) it's not already in millions of offices and (3) it has a small, high priced software base. (2) is a matter of marketing while (1) I can't really make a valid comment on since I haven't done any sys admin things with a NeXT. With all the rave reviews for the interface builder, I suspect (3) might come quicker than you suspect if sales take off. If were at Apple, I'd sure as heck be interested in going after market share as aggressively as NeXT is. Or would that be to realistic of a view? -- |_ /| | Robert Minich | |\'o.O' | Oklahoma State University| A fanatic is one who sticks to |=(___)= | minich@d.cs.okstate.edu | his guns -- whether they are | U | - Ackphtth | loaded or not.
dce@smsc.sony.com (David Elliott) (10/07/90)
In article <2867@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) writes: > > Where is it that Apple and NeXT are in any serious > competition with each other? (In ego perhaps) but > Joe Average is not going to run out and buy a Unix > box. If you think they are, Why can't you buy a Sun > or other Unix box at the local computer store? (outside Xenix) Could it have anything to do with price? Because of various design decisions, Unix machines require more memory and disk space than Macs and PCs running MS-DOS, and do better in systems that can support virtual memory. Two years ago, memory was selling for $250 per meg (not listing, *selling*), hard disks were physically large for less space and cost twice as much as now, and VM micros were just starting to drop in price. It has only been recently that the lower-priced Suns and other Unix machines were in the same price range as the higher-priced Macs and PCs. > I think that its somewhat obvious that Unix is not for the > masses no matter what front end you stick on it. Software > for Unix platforms is usually incredibly spendy as well. Unix software is spendy because the market hasn't been there. How much do you think Apple pays Informix to develop Mac products? I may be wrong, but I suspect that it's less than nothing (given the cost of the Apple Developer program and tools). How much do you think that a Unix workstation vendor pays for the same product? I suspect that $50,000 plus a guarantee of 5000 units sold in a year is considered a great bargain. With standards like X and POSIX, as well as processor ABIs, this situation can change for software developers, but it will take some time before vendor egos allow these standards to really take hold. Another major factor is software in the freeware/shareware area. I have tons of Mac software, almost all of it binaries, that I got from convenient sources, and I believe that MS-DOS users have an order of magnitude more. With X catching on, this will get better in the Unix world, but it will not be the same, since Unix people generally require sources. For now, Unix will remain a higher-priced personal system option. As system prices fall, standards become more prevalent, and more software becomes available, people will be able to take advantage of Unix. All it takes is a critical mass of users. One big advantage that NeXT and all the other Unix vendors will have in the future is that the next generation of processors (you know, the 100-200 VAX MIPS processors we keep hearing about) will be pretty easy to port to. I don't think we'll be seeing 100MIPS Macs that run the same binaries as the Plus.
ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) (10/13/90)
In article <1990Oct6.071135.14257@d.cs.okstate.edu> minich@d.cs.okstate.edu (Robert Minich) writes: > > So, the IIfx and the IIci are not that significant to Apple's product >line? They're aimed at a similar audience who wants and can afford to >pay for some performance. In that market, NeXT has a basic offering >that, IMHO as a die hard Mac user, walks all over the IIfx at a third >the cost. (Add up monitor, enet card, some software, ...) The new >NeXTs won't magically rise to preeminence because of (1) it's heart of >UNIX (2) it's not already in millions of offices and (3) it has a >small, high priced software base. (2) is a matter of marketing while (1) >I can't really make a valid comment on since I haven't done any sys admin >things with a NeXT. With all the rave reviews for the interface builder, >I suspect (3) might come quicker than you suspect if sales take off. If >were at Apple, I'd sure as heck be interested in going after market share >as aggressively as NeXT is. Or would that be to realistic of a view? > Robert, you missed the whole point... Unix is NOT for everyone. The only thing that NeXt Runs under is Unix...While the IIci and the IIfx are high performance machines, and can run AUX, Joe Average is NOT buying AUX. You might, maybe I will, but do you really consider yourself an "average" computer user? I doubt it. My Comment was pointed to the very fact that Unix is NOT for everyone and that by this very point are Apple's platforms really in any direct competition with NeXt? I don't think so. Perhaps when you install AUX, but the actual number of users there I suspect is quite low. Apple is pursuing Market share with the new releases, while we can easily slam some of the design decisions they made in new machines, I don't think that we can effectively speak for the new computer user that will want the ease of use that the Macintosh provides and perhaps with some decent street pricing will be able to get the power of a Macintosh for $2k or less. Maybe not the power houses like the IIci or IIfx.. but the new Mac's will serve I think a missing market that Apple has been overlooking for a while... -- Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie. Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything) UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM
minich@d.cs.okstate.edu (Robert Minich) (10/14/90)
If you don't give a hoot about comparing NeXT to Mac in any form, even though I AM a Mac supporter, better skip this right now. (Long quotes to preserve authors' intents...sorry) A while back, ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) wrote: | | Where is it that Apple and NeXT are in any serious | competition with each other? (In ego perhaps) but | Joe Average is not going to run out and buy a Unix | box. If you think they are, Why can't you buy a Sun | or other Unix box at the local computer store? (outside Xenix) | I think that its somewhat obvious that Unix is not for the | masses no matter what front end you stick on it. Software | for Unix platforms is usually incredibly spendy as well. | So It is my opinion that Apple is not really in any | significant competition with NeXT with some certain | Market exceptions that I don't think are all that ^^^^^^^^^^ | significant..... I could be wrong, but I doubt it.. And I replied: | | So, the IIfx and the IIci are not that significant to Apple's product | line? They're aimed at a similar audience who wants and can afford to | pay for some performance. In that market, NeXT has a basic offering | that, IMHO as a die hard Mac user, walks all over the IIfx at a third | the cost. (Add up monitor, enet card, some software, ...) The new | NeXTs won't magically rise to preeminence because of (1) it's heart of | UNIX (2) it's not already in millions of offices and (3) it has a | small, high priced software base. (2) is a matter of marketing while (1) | I can't really make a valid comment on since I haven't done any sys admin | things with a NeXT. With all the rave reviews for the interface builder, | I suspect (3) might come quicker than you suspect if sales take off. If | were at Apple, I'd sure as heck be interested in going after market share | as aggressively as NeXT is. Or would that be to realistic of a view? And now, Norm says: | | Robert, you missed the whole point... Unix is NOT for everyone. | The only thing that NeXt Runs under is Unix...While the IIci | and the IIfx are high performance machines, and can run AUX, | Joe Average is NOT buying AUX. You might, maybe I will, but do | you really consider yourself an "average" computer user? I doubt | it. I think I understand your original point and I pointed out that I have no experience with sys admin type things on the NeXT (typically the most guru-ish thing about a UNIX box). I think that you missed my point that Joe Average doesn't go out and buy a IIfx or IIci either. Yet this is a very significant market for Apple, who claims to be an innovator in the computer industry. Do you seriously think Apple doesn't care about the "power" user? That once a Mac user becomes sufficiently advanced, they will have outgrown what the Mac can provide? | My Comment was pointed to the very fact that Unix is NOT for | everyone and that by this very point are Apple's platforms really | in any direct competition with NeXt? I don't think so. Perhaps | when you install AUX, but the actual number of users there I | suspect is quite low. I think you mean "everyone" to extend only towards the less technical computer user. I argue that it also extends toward the most technical ones as well. Apple has shown their intent to attract these users to the Mac in the form of the IIfx and the ads concerning it. You seem to be hung up on what UNIX is. Do you mean that preemptive multitasking is not for everyone? That virtual memory is not for the masses? That device independence is only for gurus? Or are you referring to the interface through which we deal with the OS? (I assume this is the case.) I assert that the parts of UNIX that cause most people to vomit can effectively be hidden. Whether NeXT does this effectively, I don't know. Anyone have one that I can play with? | Apple is pursuing Market share with the new releases, while we | can easily slam some of the design decisions they made in new | machines, I don't think that we can effectively speak for the | new computer user that will want the ease of use that the | Macintosh provides and perhaps with some decent street pricing | will be able to get the power of a Macintosh for $2k or less. | Maybe not the power houses like the IIci or IIfx.. but the new | Mac's will serve I think a missing market that Apple has been | overlooking for a while... Now you're talking about the area where Apple has a chance to do some serious amounts of business. Barring massively lower prices than I've seen tossed around, I don't think they'll be terribly successful. Ask the virgin computer user about computers, and IBM usually crops up somewhere. Then they see the neato Windows demo in the store and are told "you can run this on this box for under $1K!" Sure, it's misleading because the demo is probably a spiffy 386 with VGA, etc., but to that person, a computer is a computer, right? And here's Apple's offering for $2K... Back to _my_ focus and what prompted my original response: you said that, other than ego, Apple and NeXT were not competing. I'll agree so far as price. Apple loses by a long shot. As far as target users, I see them both shooting at the same place: the business environment. The Mac has always had to justify itself by being much better than DOS. For the most part, this is still true and will continue to be so unless Apple gets a lot bigger chunk of market at all levels. This is the same place NeXT is coming from. The question isn't "why get a NeXT instead of a Mac" but "why get a NeXT instead of a clone?" The Mac doesn't have nearly as tenacious grip as the PC so going with a NeXT is no less desireable in that light than going with a Mac. No compare price/performance and Apple looks like dirt. (And DOS/Windows/??? looks like what it is. :-) If Apple cares about its future, they'd better pay attention to the NeXT. If NeXT succeeds in gaining market share, it will very likely be at Apple's loss. Apple could certainly take a lesson in eating margins here. And for you, Norm, I can't help but ask: SAY you were about to buy a IIfx. SAY your setup would include a large monitor, 8MB RAM, some software, and ethernet. Would you be willing to learn how to care for a UNIX box if I gave you $5,000? For five grand, I'll do about anything. Price comparison... Apple Educational (off my price list): Mac IIfx 4/80 $6514 +4MB 400 (700 from Apple) Apple 2 page 1505 + disp card 630 (Apple 8*24) ether 300?(NuvoLink II) LaserWrtr IIntx 3149 Extended KB 160 ----- $12658 Bundled: HyperCard, TeachText (!) ====== NeXT Educational: NeXTstation $3500 ($4995 retail list; includes 68040, 8MB RAM, 105MB HD, 1120x832 92dpi 2bit greyscale, ethernet on the mother board, no slots, 2.8MB floppy, KB/Mouse) NeXT laser 1400 (400 dpi) ---- $4900 Bundled: WriteNow Improv (if you order before 1991) Mathematica (for educational purchases) Digital Webster NeXT Mail (and you are licensed to get these but you provide the disk space or pay materials cost for lots of floppies) Complete works of Shakespeare Oxford Dictionary of Quotations TEX Interface Builder Objective C/C++ compiler/debugger Online tech documentation and more development stuff... === And remember that you're saving around $8,000 so you can afford a big hard disk and heck, why not another NeXTstation why you're at it... Also, this machine runs at roughly 2-3 times the "speed" (no benchmark flames, please) of the IIfx. If you're so enclined, you could also setup accounts for others to login to your machine. (Dumb TTYs all the way to X Windows things. You can dialup you machine from wherever and check your mail...) Yes, kids, Apple can learn something here. -- |_ /| | Robert Minich | |\'o.O' | Oklahoma State University| A fanatic is one who sticks to |=(___)= | minich@d.cs.okstate.edu | his guns -- whether they are | U | - Ackphtth | loaded or not.
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (10/14/90)
----- In article <1990Oct13.231403.22834@d.cs.okstate.edu>, minich@d.cs.okstate.edu (Robert Minich) writes... [...] Robert, you made some very good points. Also some Next agitprop (e.g., if Next gains market share, it is just as -- if not more -- likely that it will come at the expense of companies like Sun as it is that it will come from Apple). But on to the >Price comparison... > >Apple Educational (off my price list): >Mac IIfx 4/80 $6514 Remember, it has 6 slots compared to 0 for the Nextstation. >+4MB 400 (700 from Apple) $400 is WAY overpriced! You should be able to get 4 megs for less than $200. Try Technology works. >Apple 2 page 1505 Isn't the Next display smaller than 2 pages? How much would it cost you to get a Next-sized grayscale monitor from Radius or someone? > + disp card 630 (Apple 8*24) Rmember, you can never display 24 bit color on the Nextstation. 16 bit is it, at least for now. (Yes, you can get -- very expensive -- 24 bit color on the cube and Nextdimension). For this $630 or close to it you can get 24 bit color from RasterOps and others. >ether 300?(NuvoLink II) >LaserWrtr IIntx 3149 Try a personal LaserWriter. After all, I don't think the Next printer is easily networked, is it? You'd probably save, what, about $1k if you went the personal LW route. >Extended KB 160 > ----- > $12658 > >Bundled: > HyperCard, TeachText (!) >====== > >NeXT Educational: >NeXTstation $3500 ($4995 retail list; includes 68040, 8MB RAM, > 105MB HD, 1120x832 92dpi 2bit greyscale, ethernet > on the mother board, no slots, 2.8MB floppy, KB/Mouse) >NeXT laser 1400 (400 dpi) > ---- > $4900 Remember, one big advantage to the Mac is that you can shop around and get a lot of stuff from 3rd parties. With Next this is much harder. Also, if you didn't quite need the speed of the IIfx, you could get a much better deal. The IIci is MUCH cheaper, and fairly fast (neither as fast as the Next, though). I get tired of people making bogus price comparisons between the Mac and the Next. The cost/benefit ratio of the Nextstation is impressive enough that you'd think people wouldn't do that. Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
tempest@walleye.ecst.csuchico.edu (Kenneth K.F. Lui) (10/14/90)
Reading the discussion about the advantages/disadvantages of the new NeXTs versus the Macintosh brought memories of when the Macintosh was in its infancy where everyone compared the Mac with IBM PCs and compatibles. "Well, the Mac is overpriced... you can get peripherals for the PC much cheaper than you can for the Mac... blah blah blah blah..." Well, the tides have changed and now Macintosh has a much larger market share than before...things have gotten more inexpensive than the bad old days. What will become of NeXT? Only time will tell. I hope NeXT succeeds; I hope Apple does, too. If Apple wakes up and sells machines at a more reasonable price, the whole Macintosh and potential Macintosh communities benefit--likewise for NeXT enthusiasts, although the way NeXT is marketing their new machines, they're headed in the right direction. This bickering about price is going nowhere: those who like NeXTs will continue to like them and appreciate their usefulness; those who don't like NeXTs but would rather stick with Macs (really whatever CPU they like) would continue to not care. I would like to think it is the individuals who ultimately decides, and this is true for the most part. Those new NeXTs sure look nice; and frankly, if Apple introduces its '040 box that's above the price of the new Cube--not the NeXTstation--I will jump ship and get a NeXT before buying another Macintosh. I get in on a good deal when I see one, and as a programmer, I see the NeXT as a great deal--much better than what Apple has given us in terms of price/performance. But then, it's hard to give your customers a good deal when you've got a monopoly... Speaking of the "bad old days," I just remembered that I paid more for my Apple II+ with 64K RAM (ooooh!!) in 1981 than I did for my SE in 1988. Chills go up my spine. Can't wait for that Craystation for $2395 with 1 GB RAM... Ken -- ..............................................................________________. tempest@ecst.csuchico.edu, tempest@walleye.ecst.csuchico.edu,|Kenneth K.F. Lui| tempest@sutro.sfsu.edu, tempest@wet.UUCP |________________|
aslakson@cs.umn.edu (Brian Aslakson) (10/15/90)
I'm in a sharing mood, so I'll share my thoughts on this subject, hit "n" now to pass it by quick! Ok, your choice! ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) writes: >In article .... (Robert Minich) writes: >> So, the IIfx and the IIci are not that significant to Apple's product >>line? They're aimed at a similar audience who wants and can afford to >>pay for some performance. In that market, NeXT has a basic offering >>that, IMHO as a die hard Mac user, walks all over the IIfx at a third >>the cost. (Add up monitor, enet card, some software, ...) The new >>NeXTs won't magically rise to preeminence because of (1) it's heart of >>UNIX (2) it's not already in millions of offices and (3) it has a >>small, high priced software base. > Robert, you missed the whole point... Unix is NOT for everyone. > The only thing that NeXT Runs under is Unix...While the IIci Norman, you missed the whole point... Robert isn't talking about Unix being for everyone. In fact, I get frustrated when I sit in front of a NeXT and can't get at the Unix part right off. I haven't sat in front of one so much, but the similarity between the NeXT's setting the nitty- gritty of the os functioning behind a pretty face and the Macintosh's setting the .... is striking (hmmm, I wonder why). (I'm no NeXTpert, so if I miss something, correct me.) In reply to Robert's points: 1) eeehhhhh, 2) yes, 3) o mai oui (oh my yes). There is a completely non-CS department on campus that ordered a NeXT over the original planned Macintosh. And they already *have* Mac(s). And this is a big Mac campus. Please construe nothing in my post against Macs, no comment about a certain Scul..... -- Brian Aslakson aslakson@cs.umn.edu mac-admin@cs.umn.edu <-= Macintosh related