vita@sunny.dab.ge.com (Mark Vita) (10/17/90)
On America Online last night there was an on-line discussion with some Apple engineers (Noah Price and a couple other guys whose names I unfortunately don't recall) about the new Macs. Here are some tidbits that I gleaned from the discussion: Macintosh Classic ----------------- * The Classic is about 25% faster than the Mac Plus overall. This is about 5% faster than the SE. The speed increase over the SE is attributable to improvements in the ROM, especially QuickDraw. * The reason an 8-MHz 68000 was used in the Classic instead of a higher speed part was to keep the cost down. * The brightness control on the Classic is in software (the control panel, I presume). * The Classic lacks the Mac SE's expansion slot. There is, however, a slot for a memory expansion card. The memory expansion card takes standard SIMMs. Macintosh LC ------------ * According to the Apple engineers, it will not be possible to put a PMMU into the LC (I didn't get a chance to ask about the Dynamac board). A FPU can be added via the PDS slot. * The LC has 512K of socketed ROM. * Someone asked about the performance of the LC relative to original Mac II (both being 020 machines and all). He said that the graphics performance of the LC should be slightly better due to ROM improvements. However, the LC has a 16-bit path to memory (!), rather than the II's 32-bit path; hence, the LC will be slower on CPU-intensive tasks. Overall he characterized the performance of the LC as twice that of the Classic. * Out of the box, the built-in video of the LC supports: 8-bit color on the new 12" RGB display; 4-bit grayscale on the 12" monochrome display; and 4-bit color on the old 13" RGB display. With the 512K video DRAM upgrade, the LC supports: 16-bit color (!) on the new 12" RGB display; 8-bit grayscale on the 12" monochrome display; and 8-bit color on the old 13" RGB display. * Unlike the IIci, the LC does not suffer a performance hit due to memory contention when using the built-in video. This is because the video memory is in a separate bank of DRAM. * The Apple II board for the LC is Apple IIe emulation, not Apple IIgs emulation. They said that IIgs emulation woud have added several hundred dollars to the cost of the board, and they wanted to keep the cost low. They also said that the vast majority of educational software is written for the IIe. * The Apple II board is for the LC's PDS slot only. At present there are no plans for a NuBus version. * With the Apple II board, the LC can be run in either Macintosh mode OR Apple II mode. You can switch modes without rebooting. However, you cannot run Apple II software and Macintosh software simultaneously. Macintosh IIsi -------------- * The slot in the IIsi is not usable as-is. You need one of the adapter cards to make it into either a NuBus slot or a PDS slot. * The IIsi's PDS slot is electrically equivalent to the SE/30's PDS slot. There could be problems using SE/30 cards due to the difference in size, however. * The 68882 math coprocessor is optional on the IIsi. * The IIsi internal hard drives are third-height drives manufactured by Conner and Quantum. Only third-height drives will fit inside the case (i.e., garden variety 3.5-inch drives such as the Quantum 105 won't fit). Miscellaneous ------------- * The Classic and LC come with a new, small keyboard included in the box. This new keyboard is based on "membrane" technology and has a somewhat softer feel than existing keyboards. It is an ADB device and can be used with other ADB Macs. * The new Macs have only one ADB port; you need to plug the mouse into the keyboard. * The LC and IIsi are shipped with hard drives in their minimum configurations; i.e., you can't order one without a hard drive. * The new machines (at least the Classic and LC; not sure about the IIsi) don't have the traditional programmer's switch; instead, the reset and interrupt signals are sent by hitting certain keyboard combinations; something like Cmd-Option-PowerOn (shades of Ctrl-Alt-Delete! ack!!). They claimed that the new keyboard controller is smart enough so that this will work even if the Mac is locked up. * Maximum RAM in the Classic: 4 MB Maximum RAM in the LC: 10 MB Maximum RAM in the IIsi: 17 MB (!) * The new Macs will make use of some odd-sized SIMMs. Mention was made of a 512K SIMM and a 2MB SIMM. * The "new" monochrome monitor is the SAME CRT as the old monochrome monitor; just repackaged (different case?) and repriced. * Apple has no plans to introduce an Apple-label sound input device for older Macs. (However, someone else mentioned that some company has announced a new sound input device called the MacMic for $59.95! Certainly a lot cheaper than the MacRecorder. Anyone have any info on this thing?) -- Mark Vita vita@sunny.dab.ge.com Advanced Engineering GE Simulation and Control Systems Daytona Beach, FL
robin@csuchico.edu (Robin Goldstone) (10/18/90)
In article <6296@ge-dab.GE.COM> vita@sunny.dab.ge.com (Mark Vita) writes: > >* Maximum RAM in the Classic: 4 MB > Maximum RAM in the LC: 10 MB > Maximum RAM in the IIsi: 17 MB (!) > >* The new Macs will make use of some odd-sized SIMMs. Mention was > made of a 512K SIMM and a 2MB SIMM. > I'm curious about the new RAM configurations, specifically in the IIsi. I heard that there is 1Mb RAM "on board", so this machine must then have four slots for SIMMS? If so, then SIMMS must be installed in pairs (not counting the first 1MB)? If this is true, then you could have: 2MB, 3MB, 3.5 MB, 5MB, 9MB, 9.5MB, 11MB, 17MB using combinations of 256K, 1MB and 4MB SIMMS! Did I get all the permutations? If Mark is right about 512K and 2MB SIMMS, then you could have -- oh forget it! OK, that was my brain exercise for the day... Robin Goldstone, Systems Software Specialist California State University, Chico Computing Services robin@csuchico.edu
drs@max.bnl.gov (Dave Stampf) (10/18/90)
Does anyone know if the LC and si can hold > 1 hard disk internally? Even 80Meg sounds small. Also, what speed RAM is required? Just an observation - it seems to me that all of the hard disk dealers are screwed with the new macs - there must be wharehouses full of disks that are physically too big. < dave
gmoff@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Moffat) (10/18/90)
vita@sunny.dab.ge.com (Mark Vita) writes: >* The Classic lacks the Mac SE's expansion slot. There is, however, a > slot for a memory expansion card. The memory expansion card takes > standard SIMMs. Someone (I think blob$apple.com) just posted info that classics will take 64 pin SIMMS - who's correct? My question for 3rd party hardware vendors - how long before a reasonably priced memory expansion card with 3 standard SIMM sockets is available? The educational price in NZ for Apple's 1M upgrade is $300, which is a ripoff considering we can mail order SIMMs for around $70! -- Graeme Moffat, Phone : +64 9 737 999 x8384 Computer Aided Design Centre, Fax : +64 9 366 0702 School of Engineering, Mail : Private Bag, Auckland, NZ University of Auckland Email : g.moffat@aukuni.ac.nz Time wastes us all, our bodies and our wits - But we waste time, so time and we are quits -- Graeme Moffat, Phone : +64 9 737 999 x8384 Computer Aided Design Centre, Fax : +64 9 366 0702 School of Engineering, Mail : Private Bag, Auckland, NZ University of Auckland Email : g.moffat@aukuni.ac.nz
dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) (10/18/90)
In article <6296@ge-dab.GE.COM> vita@sunny.dab.ge.com (Mark Vita) writes: >On America Online last night there was an on-line discussion with some >Apple engineers (Noah Price and a couple other guys whose names I >unfortunately don't recall) about the new Macs. Here are some tidbits >that I gleaned from the discussion: > [omissions] > >Miscellaneous >------------- > >* The Classic and LC come with a new, small keyboard included in the > box. This new keyboard is based on "membrane" technology and has a > somewhat softer feel than existing keyboards. It is an ADB device and > can be used with other ADB Macs. Yech, this sounds really nasty. The membrane keyboards I have seen in the past were flat surfaces, totally unsuitable for touch typists. Is that the case here, or does it have reals keys, with the membrane underneath, done well enough so you can actually type on the thing? What is meant by "small keyboard"? If it just means I don't have a lot of function keys, I can live with that. If it means I'm going to have to scrunch my fingers together, they can take it and...well, never mind. >* The new Macs have only one ADB port; you need to plug the > mouse into the keyboard. Also nasty. I don't know much about third-party keyboards; are there any out there that will support this, if I hate the keyboard that comes with it? Please don't misunderstand; I WANT to like these machines, and I'm hoping someone will tell me the keyboards aren't as bad as this makes them sound. [more omissions] >* The new Macs will make use of some odd-sized SIMMs. Mention was > made of a 512K SIMM and a 2MB SIMM. Will they also be able to make use of normal SIMMs? Specifically, can I buy reasonably priced SIMMs, or do I have to pay Apple's absurdly inflated prices? Can I install the SIMMs myself without voiding my warranty? -- Dave Matuszek (dave@prc.unisys.com) -- Unisys Corp. / Paoli Research Center / PO Box 517 / Paoli PA 19301 -- Any resemblance between my opinions and those of my employer is improbable. < You can put a mouse on an IBM. And you can put a radio on a motorcycle. >
gaynor@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Jim Gaynor) (10/18/90)
In article <15317@burdvax.PRC.Unisys.COM> dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) writes: >In article <6296@ge-dab.GE.COM> vita@sunny.dab.ge.com (Mark Vita) writes: >> [...about the new keyboard for Mac Classic and Mac LC...] > >Yech, this sounds really nasty. The membrane keyboards I have seen in >the past were flat surfaces, totally unsuitable for touch typists. Is >that the case here, or does it have reals keys, with the membrane >underneath, done well enough so you can actually type on the thing? It's a real, live keyboard. Real keys, and all that jazz. I only got to play with one for awhile, but the keypress feels just a bit softer than the Standard Keyboard or Extended Keyboard. I don't think it'll make any difference to a casual typist, and it's certainly a -lot- better than the Teleray keyboards I worked years ago... >What is meant by "small keyboard"? It's got the same layout as the Standard Keyboard (numeric keypad, but no function keys, no pgup/pgdwn/home/ect.), and the keys seem to be the same size, it's just the case itself that is a bit scaled down. Smaller margins (?) bwteen the actual keyboard and the edge of the case itself. >Also nasty. I don't know much about third-party keyboards; are there >any out there that will support this, if I hate the keyboard that >comes with it? Most stationary ADB devices I've seen, like drawing tablets, trackballs, and keyboards, can be daisy-chained on the ADB. It's hand-held stuff like lightpens and mice that you can't plug other things into (and who'd really want to plug their keyboard into the side of their mouse? <grin>) >Please don't misunderstand; I WANT to like these machines, and I'm >hoping someone will tell me the keyboards aren't as bad as this makes >them sound. >Will they also be able to make use of normal SIMMs? Specifically, can >I buy reasonably priced SIMMs, or do I have to pay Apple's absurdly >inflated prices? Can I install the SIMMs myself without voiding my >warranty? Normal SIMMs are A-OK. The folks from Apple at the educational meeting I was at Wednesday went to lengths to assure us that you weren't forced to buy weird SIMMs for memory expansion, ala the Macintosh IIfx. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jim Gaynor - The Ohio State Univ. - IRCC - Facilities Mgmt. - OCES <whew!> | | Email [gaynor@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu], [gaynor@agvax2.ag.ohio-state.edu] | |_ "Don't tell me truth hurts, little girl; because it hurts like hell..." _|
wayner@kama.cs.cornell.edu (Peter Wayner) (10/18/90)
dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) writes: >Yech, this sounds really nasty. The membrane keyboards I have seen in >the past were flat surfaces, totally unsuitable for touch typists. Is >that the case here, or does it have reals keys, with the membrane >underneath, done well enough so you can actually type on the thing? >What is meant by "small keyboard"? If it just means I don't have a >lot of function keys, I can live with that. If it means I'm going to >have to scrunch my fingers together, they can take it and...well, >never mind. I played with the keyboards last Friday and they were okay. They look very similar to the SE keyboard, but they don't make as much noise. The touch is okay. An engineer told me that the manufacturing costs for the new boards was one half the cost of making the old ones. Of course that could be better automation or a larger economies of scale. >-- Dave Matuszek (dave@prc.unisys.com) >-- Unisys Corp. / Paoli Research Center / PO Box 517 / Paoli PA 19301 >-- Any resemblance between my opinions and those of my employer is improbable. >< You can put a mouse on an IBM. And you can put a radio on a motorcycle. > -Peter wayner Peter Wayner Department of Computer Science Cornell Univ. Ithaca, NY 14850 EMail:wayner@cs.cornell.edu Office: 607-255-9202 or 255-1008 Home: 116 Oak Ave, Ithaca, NY 14850 Phone: 607-277-6678
ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) (10/18/90)
In <1990Oct17.181025.28801@ecst.csuchico.edu> robin@csuchico.edu (Robin Goldstone) writes: >I'm curious about the new RAM configurations, specifically in the IIsi. >I heard that there is 1Mb RAM "on board", so this machine must then have >four slots for SIMMS? If so, then SIMMS must be installed in pairs (not >counting the first 1MB)? >If this is true, then you could have: 2MB, 3MB, 3.5 MB, 5MB, 9MB, 9.5MB, >11MB, 17MB using combinations of 256K, 1MB and 4MB SIMMS! Did I get >all the permutations? If Mark is right about 512K and 2MB SIMMS, then >you could have -- oh forget it! According to Apple, possible memory configs are 2M using 256K SIMMs 3M using 512K SIMMs 5M using 1M SIMMs 9M using 2M SIMMs 17M using 4M SIMMs No, I don't know where you buy 512K or 2M SIMMs. :-)
wilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) (10/18/90)
In article <15317@burdvax.PRC.Unisys.COM> dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) writes: >In article <6296@ge-dab.GE.COM> vita@sunny.dab.ge.com (Mark Vita) writes: [Mark Vita's fanciful description of Atari 400 keyboards on Mac deleted] :-) :-) :-) >Yech, this sounds really nasty. The membrane keyboards I have seen in >the past were flat surfaces, totally unsuitable for touch typists. Is >that the case here, or does it have reals keys, with the membrane >underneath, done well enough so you can actually type on the thing? The keyboards shipped with the LC and the Classic look, to my eyes, just like the ADB Apple IIgs keyboards. Perhaps they're identical, even. No, it's not back to the Atari 400. Good thing, too. -- Mark Wilkins -- ******* "Freedom is a road seldom traveled by the multitude!" ********** *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------* * Mark R. Wilkins wilkins@jarthur.claremont.edu {uunet}!jarthur!wilkins * ****** MARK.WILKINS on AppleLink ****** MWilkins on America Online ******
dowdy@apple.com (Tom Dowdy) (10/19/90)
In article <15317@burdvax.PRC.Unisys.COM>, dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) writes: > [posting about the LC keyboard omitted] > > Yech, this sounds really nasty. The membrane keyboards I have seen in > the past were flat surfaces, totally unsuitable for touch typists. Is > that the case here, or does it have reals keys, with the membrane > underneath, done well enough so you can actually type on the thing? This is EXACTLY the reaction I was sure this would have. It got the same reaction when it was said in a meeting of engineers. It is NOT a "membrane" keyboard - what it is is a KEYBOARD based on membrane technology. It has REAL keys, and a feel that I actually like better than the standard Apple keyboard. The membrane makes the keyboard cheaper to produce because it doesn't have 100 little switches. > What is meant by "small keyboard"? If it just means I don't have a > lot of function keys, I can live with that. If it means I'm going to > have to scrunch my fingers together, they can take it and...well, > never mind. Look at an Apple IIgs keyboard. Just about the same size. Keysize is the same (or awfully darn close) to the standard Apple keyboard. When you see it in a dealer, give it a try, I think you'll like it. Tom Dowdy Internet: dowdy@apple.COM Apple Computer MS:81EQ UUCP: {sun,voder,amdahl,decwrl}!apple!dowdy 20525 Mariani Ave AppleLink: DOWDY1 Cupertino, CA 95014 "The 'Ooh-Ah' Bird is so called because it lays square eggs."
roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) (10/19/90)
dowdy@apple.com (Tom Dowdy) writes:
-> Look at an Apple IIgs keyboard. Just about the same size. Keysize
-> is the same (or awfully darn close) to the standard Apple keyboard.
-> When you see it in a dealer, give it a try, I think you'll like it.
Does it have a real control key?
--
Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute
455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu -OR- {att,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy
"Arcane? Did you say arcane? It wouldn't be Unix if it wasn't arcane!"starta@tosh.UUCP (John Starta) (10/19/90)
roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes: > dowdy@apple.com (Tom Dowdy) writes: > -> Look at an Apple IIgs keyboard. Just about the same size. Keysize > -> is the same (or awfully darn close) to the standard Apple keyboard. > -> When you see it in a dealer, give it a try, I think you'll like it. > > Does it have a real control key? Yes, the IIGS keyboard does contain a control key. I am not certain what is meant by "real", so I can't help you there. For an idea of placement, look at the Apple Extended keyboard and imagine the control key where the caps lock is; and the caps lock where the control key was. The caps lock is also a smaller key on the IIGS keyboard. John
hjelmflt@deneb (Eric Hjelmfelt) (10/19/90)
In article <10806@goofy.Apple.COM> dowdy@apple.com (Tom Dowdy) writes: >It is NOT a "membrane" keyboard - what it is is a KEYBOARD based >on membrane technology. It has REAL keys, and a feel that I actually like >better than the standard Apple keyboard. The membrane makes the keyboard >cheaper to produce because it doesn't have 100 little switches. I haven't seen it, but I do know that the old C= 64 had a keyboard that one could fairly accurately describe in this manner. Beneath each real key there was a plastic bubble with a wire inside of it at its apex, when the key was depressed, the wire made contact with another and closed a circut. As I recall, they did have a pretty good feel and were suitable to touch typists. Furthermore, they were probably more dependable than switch-based keyboards. My question: Where on the new keyboards is the Control key? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Eric Hjelmfelt | There are three kinds of mathematicians hjelmflt@ | in the world, those who can count calculuc.math.uiuc.edu | and those who can't. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
kent@circus.camex.com (Kent Borg) (10/20/90)
While we are talking about keyboards, which way does the plug go in?
On the GS keyboard the flat side is up.
On the extended keyboard and "SE" keyboards the flat side is away from you.
On the new extended keyboard the flat side is towards you.
Is it down this time???
And while we are at it, how are the keys placed? Did Apple match one
of their old layouts, or is it yet again a new one?
--
Kent Borg internet: kent@camex.com AOL: kent borg
H:(617) 776-6899 W:(617) 426-3577
"The prospect of their mass excites astrophysicists, who are always on the
lookout for ways to make the universe heavier" -- The Economist, 9-22-90blob@Apple.COM (Brian Bechtel) (10/20/90)
hjelmflt@deneb (Eric Hjelmfelt) writes: >My question: Where on the new keyboards is the Control key? The control key is down next to the option key at the bottom of the keyboard. The caps lock key is between the tab and shift keys on the left side of the keyboard. This layout is similar to the extended keyboard's layout of these two keys. New layout: the esc key is between the {open-apple / freeway-interchange / clover-leaf} key and the space bar. The back quote / tilde key is in the upper left corner of the keyboard, where the esc key is on a standard keyboard. --Brian Bechtel blob@apple.com "My opinion, not Apple's"