cromwell@acsu.buffalo.edu (mark j cromwell) (10/16/90)
In article <5735@nisca.ircc.ohio-state.edu> gaynor@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Jim Gaynor) writes: > The Macintosh LC (2/40) has a SMRP of $2,499. Expect educational >bundles to include the new 12" RGB monitor for around $2000. (That's my >guess - no "sources" behind it). > Oh, and by the way, Fred - The Apple IIe card will sell for $199. >Source is the Applelink announcement that was posted here. > > "Apple II forever." <chuckle> Apple probably just killed what's left of their share in the education market. Educators are willing to pay $1500 for a computer. $2000+ is just too much. The LC is over priced, they won't even consider buying it. Not to mention the Macintosh has virtually no educational software. IBM's machine has the magic $1500, greater storage capacity and what educators really love: COLOR. That and the IBM name spells doom for the education market for Apple. A lot of educators want "up to date", affordable, business oriented compututers: IBM (hey, it's true, that's what they think). What I consider sad is that the Apple II didn't have to die. It's not in the workstation market. It's main competitors always were the Amiga and the Atari. Getting its performance up to that level would have been easy. Alas Apple has let the II lay fallow for so long that it let the education market bleed to death. I suppose Apple thought it natural that they would buy monochrome Mac SEs for $2700 with no educational software. I'd also like to point out that Macintosh technology is itself looking pretty ragged. The 68000 is a > 10 year CISC chip. When the price / performance ratio gets too high Apple will start looking at the 88000. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. - Mark Cromwell "Macintosh forever!"
robin@csuchico.edu (Robin Goldstone) (10/17/90)
In article <40963@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> cromwell@acsu.buffalo.edu (mark j cromwell) writes: > > Apple probably just killed what's left of their share in the education >market. Educators are willing to pay $1500 for a computer. $2000+ is just >too much. The LC is over priced, they won't even consider buying it. Not >to mention the Macintosh has virtually no educational software. > > I do not agree with this analysis. It was my understanding that a nicely equipped IIGS costs over $2000 dollars. I have several friends who teach elementary school and all have IIGS's at their schools. So there goes your theory that educators won't pay over $1500 for a computer. Also, in regard to the availability of software, the IIe card will enable the Mac LC to run all of the Apple II educational software. In my opinion, providing this capability on a Mac will entice educational users to start exploring the Mac and at the same time entice Apple II educational software developers to start migrating their software to the Mac. Sounds like a good plan to me! By the way, my three friends who teach elementary school are all 'chomping at the bit' to buy Mac LC's. They were quite bummed when I told them that they would proabably have to wait 'till February. Robin Goldstone, Systems Software Specialist California State University, Chico Computing Services robin@csuchico.edu
daveo@Apple.COM (David M. O'Rourke) (10/17/90)
cromwell@acsu.buffalo.edu (mark j cromwell) writes: > Apple probably just killed what's left of their share in the education >market. Educators are willing to pay $1500 for a computer. $2000+ is just >too much. The LC is over priced, they won't even consider buying it. Not >to mention the Macintosh has virtually no educational software. > > IBM's machine has the magic $1500, greater storage capacity and what >educators really love: COLOR. That and the IBM name spells doom for the The LC has COLOR also. > I'd also like to point out that Macintosh technology is itself looking >pretty ragged. The 68000 is a > 10 year CISC chip. When the price / performance >ratio gets too high Apple will start looking at the 88000. Fool me once shame >on you, fool me twice shame on me. Yeah, the 680x0 is looking at least as old as the 80x86 line. But we have only 1 680x0 machine being pushed right at the moment. All of the new products, minus the classic, have at least an 020 and 2 megs of ram. -- daveo@apple.com David M. O'Rourke "I never learned how to use a gun and that doomed me to middle management for the rest of my life." -- Steve Martin, "My Blue Heaven" _______________________________________________________________________________ I do not speak for Apple in *ANY* official capacity.
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (10/17/90)
---- In article <40963@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU>, cromwell@acsu.buffalo.edu (mark j cromwell) writes... [..] > > Apple probably just killed what's left of their share in the education >market. Educators are willing to pay $1500 for a computer. $2000+ is just >too much. Gee, you really keep on top of things, don't you? Of course I'm sure you are aware of numerous newspaper articles in the last couple of weeks stating that Apple will be selling these machines to educational buyers (read: K-12 as well as uni's) at substantial discounts. Thus: the LC will in all liklihood NOT cost over $2000. Just out of curiosity, how much is the university cost for the LC? The LC is over priced, they won't even consider buying it. Not >to mention the Macintosh has virtually no educational software. That's a joke, right? [...] > > I'd also like to point out that Macintosh technology is itself looking >pretty ragged. The 68000 is a > 10 year CISC chip. Um, just out of curiosity, how old is the technology being used in the $1500 IBM machines? 8086? 80286? Kinda old too. Of course the LC doesn't use a 68000, it uses a 68020, which is -- what? -- 5 years old or so. As far as CISC chips -- 680x0, 80xx6 -- the '020 is certainly a fine chip. Not cutting edge, but reasonable. Remember, it was only 3 years ago that the Mac II was considered a great machine with this same chip. But, I guess you're suggesting that Apple use a RISC chip in their low-end educational machines. Riiight. Here's a guess: you're not a business major, right? Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
kf@mbunix.mitre.org (Fong) (10/17/90)
Mark Cromwell writes: > Apple probably just killed what's left of their share in the education >market. Educators are willing to pay $1500 for a computer. $2000+ is just >too much. The LC is over priced, they won't even consider buying it... > IBM's machine has the magic $1500, greater storage capacity and what >educators really love: COLOR. I totally disagree. It seems that you've missed a lot of facts in coming to your conclusions. Maybe some enlightenment would help you: Contrary to popular belief, Apple did survey the education market prior to producing the LC. (Mark, if you're an educator, I guess they missed your wonderful opinio.) According to the Apple rep at the intro, over 70% of educators preferred buying Macintoshes over Apple IIs if cost is not a factor. But cost, color, sound, and preserving investment in Apple II software were important factors. (None of my K-8 educator friends were surveyed but they all agree with the above statement.) The Mac LC meets each of these criteria. It has COLOR (256 colors on the 12" RGB display). It has simple-to-use sound input (microphone) and sound output (internal speaker as well as output jack). For a single or dual-floppy version with 12" monitor, the LC will prbably meet the cost of $1500 per unit in the education market. (Not that I agree that the $1500 mark is the magic number. According to my friends, schools average about $2000 per unit and peripherals.) Having no hard disk is not a big problem on the Mac because of its built-in networking capabilities. And the $199 Apple IIe card allows for continued use of tens of thousands of Apple II software packages. In each of these factors, the LC beats the IBM. To get 256 colors on the IBM, you pay extra. To get networking on an IBM, you pay extra. It may or may not be possible (rumor only - nothing announced) to get an Apple IIe emulation card for the IBM by March 1991, when the Apple card ships. And sound, you pay extra (if you still have enough slots for it). When you add all these useful items, the IBM is the one that is overpriced. And to top it off, every Mac also has a SCSI port, which allows for many useful education peripherals such as fast hard disk storage, CD-ROM, video disc, scanners, etc. And lastly, every Mac comes with a fully usable version of Hypercard. The Mac really does include a lot for its price. > the IBM name spells doom for the >education market for Apple. A lot of educators want "up to date", affordable, >business oriented compututers: IBM (hey, it's true, that's what they think). I think more than a few people think the Mac is now an "up-to-date" and business-oriented computer. The LC may not be state-of-the art, but neither is the PS/2 25. And with these new Macs, even quite affordable. One more point: In general, educators like Apple a lot more than they like IBM. Although Apple hasn't done much in the Apple II general purpose market, they have listened to educators and provided lots of educator support. > Not >to mention the Macintosh has virtually no educational software. Let me ask again: Are you an educator or is this second-hand news? Contrary to your belief that virtually no education software exists for the Mac, much does exist (not even counting the Apple II stuff) and much more is coming. New educational software for the Mac has been announced by Chancery Software, Broderbund (Carmen Sandiego, etc), Computer Curriculum Corporation, Davidson, Great Wave, ABC News Interactive, Jostens Learning, Discis, Compu-Teach, Scholastic Software, MECC, Wings for learning, William K. Bradford, Milliken, Logo Computer Systems, Pelican, Tom Snyder Productions, Scott-Foresman, Sunburst, Knowledge Revolution, plus many more for Higher education too. Aldus is selling a student version of Pagemaker for $50. Mathematica is being sold for $139. Microsoft already sells student versions of Word and Excel. > What I consider sad is that the Apple II didn't have to die. It's not >in the workstation market. It's main competitors always were the Amiga >and the Atari. Getting its performance up to that level would have been >easy. Alas Apple has let the II lay fallow for so long that it let the >education market bleed to death. It's main competitor in the education market is IBM, not Amiga or Atari. > I'd also like to point out that Macintosh technology is itself looking >pretty ragged. The 68000 is a > 10 year CISC chip. When the price/performance >ratio gets too high Apple will start looking at the 88000. Fool me once shame >on you, fool me twice shame on me. The LC uses a 68020. But regardless, the Intel family is similarly as old. If you can find or build a RISC chip computer that meets all of the educator criteria above (remember your $1500 magic number), you can make lots of money. The problem is it doesn't yet exist!!!. I think Apple has made a good move with the LC. Now they just have to get it approved by the FCC and produce them faster. Kevin Fong MITRE Corporation Standard disclaimer.
clj@bilver.UUCP (Chuck Joslin) (10/17/90)
Easily bring an Apple II up to the performance level of an Amiga? Oh, please. An 8-bit machine rivalling a machine like an Amiga 3000 (25MHZ 68030, full 32-bit architecture). Sure Or even a 7.14Mhz Amiga 500 with a 68000 and 16 bit bus. No way. If you want to compare Mac IIs to Amigas, that's fine. But an Apple II? No way. Chuck
drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu (David Gutierrez) (10/18/90)
In article <40963@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> cromwell@acsu.buffalo.edu (mark j cromwell) writes: > > The Macintosh LC (2/40) has a SMRP of $2,499. Expect educational > >bundles to include the new 12" RGB monitor for around $2000. (That's my > >guess - no "sources" behind it). > > Apple probably just killed what's left of their share in the education > market. Educators are willing to pay $1500 for a computer. $2000+ is just > too much. My own guess would put the LC 2/40 at about $1700. This is based on discounts we usually get on other Mac products. I think most educators would pay $200 over the "magic" $1500 for a Mac, as opposed to a PC. I also think those that want to run IIe software will pop for the additional $120 the emulation board should sell for. David Gutierrez drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu "Only fools are positive." - Moe Howard
drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu (David Gutierrez) (10/18/90)
In article <45706@apple.Apple.COM> daveo@Apple.COM (David M. O'Rourke) writes: > Yeah, the 680x0 is looking at least as old as the 80x86 line. But we have > only 1 680x0 machine being pushed right at the moment. All of the new > products, minus the classic, have at least an 020 and 2 megs of ram. What about the Portable? It still has a 68000, although I can't recall whether it ships with 1 or 2 meg of RAM. How about it, David? Did you just forget about the Portable, or is this your way of telling us that the Portable is getting a 68030 (or 68020)? David Gutierrez drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu "Only fools are positive." - Moe Howard
daveo@Apple.COM (David M. O'Rourke) (10/18/90)
drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu (David Gutierrez) writes: >What about the Portable? It still has a 68000, although I can't recall >whether it ships with 1 or 2 meg of RAM. How about it, David? Did you just >forget about the Portable, or is this your way of telling us that the >Portable is getting a 68030 (or 68020)? Gosh put an Apple.com address in your name and people think you know everything...and boy do they ever read between the lines. I forgot about the portable.... :-( So I stand corrected. -- daveo@apple.com David M. O'Rourke "I never learned how to use a gun and that doomed me to middle management for the rest of my life." -- Steve Martin, "My Blue Heaven" _______________________________________________________________________________ I do not speak for Apple in *ANY* official capacity.
ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) (10/18/90)
In article <40963@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> cromwell@acsu.buffalo.edu (mark j cromwell) writes: > Apple probably just killed what's left of their share in the education >market. Educators are willing to pay $1500 for a computer. $2000+ is just >too much. The LC is over priced, they won't even consider buying it. Not >to mention the Macintosh has virtually no educational software. You are overlooking the Apple IIe card, if you are not, then how how can you say there is no education software for the Mac? > IBM's machine has the magic $1500, greater storage capacity and what >educators really love: COLOR. That and the IBM name spells doom for the >education market for Apple. A lot of educators want "up to date", affordable, >business oriented compututers: IBM (hey, it's true, that's what they think). You have obviously never used a PS/1 have you, it makes the Macintosh at any price look good... For $1500 you get nothing that remotely compares to a Mac in any way, shape or form.. > I'd also like to point out that Macintosh technology is itself looking >pretty ragged. The 68000 is a > 10 year CISC chip. When the price / performance >ratio gets too high Apple will start looking at the 88000. Fool me once shame >on you, fool me twice shame on me. > "Macintosh forever!" You have the same bias as many other "experienced" Mac users. You think that a new computer buyer is going to know or care how long the 68K has been around. Yes, eventually the 68K will fall to the wayside, but its not dead yet. I suspect it has a few more years before it falls into the bit bucket. -- Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie. Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything) UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM
francis@magrathea.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) (10/20/90)
In article <123555@linus.mitre.org> kf@mbunix.mitre.org (Fong) writes: >Mark Cromwell writes: [...] >extra. To get networking on an IBM, you pay extra. It may or may not be >possible (rumor only - nothing announced) to get an Apple IIe emulation card >for the IBM by March 1991, when the Apple card ships. Doesn't sound possible, after the way Apple nuked Franklin. Surely Apple itself isn't going to put out //e cards for PClones! And sound, you pay >extra (if you still have enough slots for it). When you add all these useful The other day, I saw a PS/2 showing off its sound stuff at a fair. There was a keyboard attached (apparently through MIDI or something), two external speakers, a huge application to control the hardware, & some datafiles somebody had worked hard on; and, for all that, it couldn't play as well as most Macs have always been able. It's just silly. | Francis Stracke | My opinions are my own. I don't steal them.| | Department of Mathematics |=============================================| | University of Chicago | A mathematician is a professional | | francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu | schizophrenic.--Me. |