gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (10/22/90)
> Well, I understand that the roaming control and escape key syndrome is > back. The control and caps lock keys, do-see-doed back to their > reversed positions and the escape ended up somewhere around the space > bar. And, yes, the backquote/ tilde key is back up in the top left > corner. (And you thought that you'd be able to switch to ONE > convention for mapping keys for terminal emulators??? argh!) Hey, it's just good 'ol Apple opening up new niche markets for INITs to fix brain-damaged keyboards. Some enterprising young developer will have to write a "Keyboard Fix" INIT, sold with stickers to put on the misaligned keys, to make them do the right thing. This way, there are instant incentives for developers to jump in and write software on the new machines! As I've said before, it pays for Apple to release flawed systems (why have pointless products like Suitcase flourished so well?), with plenty of room for enhancements.
macman@wpi.WPI.EDU (Chris Silverberg) (10/23/90)
>> Well, I understand that the roaming control and escape key syndrome is >> back. The control and caps lock keys, do-see-doed back to their >> reversed positions and the escape ended up somewhere around the space >> bar. >Hey, it's just good 'ol Apple opening up new niche markets for INITs >to fix brain-damaged keyboards. Some enterprising young developer >will have to write a "Keyboard Fix" INIT, sold with stickers to put on >the misaligned keys, to make them do the right thing. Well, i'm not so sure that we can switch the locations of the caps lock key and the control key. The caps lock key is a different mechanism than the control key. (ie: it stays in when you press down). It's too bad, I really like the new keyboards, the smaller size and nice key press "feel" but I couldn't stand having the control and escape key down on the bottom. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Chris Silverberg INTERNET: macman@wpi.wpi.edu Worcester Polytechnic Institute Main Street USA 508-832-7725 (sysop) America Online: Silverberg WMUG BBS 508-832-5844 (sysop) "Ask me about TeleFinder... A Macintosh BBS with a Macintosh interface"
ar4@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Piper Keairnes) (10/23/90)
> Well, I understand that the roaming control and escape key syndrome is > back. The control and caps lock keys, do-see-doed back to their > reversed positions and the escape ended up somewhere around the space > bar. Why on earth is the Caps-lock key far left on the middle row of keys on extended keyboards, where the Control key should be? Is this in accordance with an accepted standard, for ergonomic reasons, or what? ----- Piper Keairnes ar4@sage.cc.purdue.edu
draphsor@elaine4.stanford.edu (Matt Rollefson) (10/24/90)
ar4@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Piper Keairnes) writes: >Why on earth is the Caps-lock key far left on the middle row of keys on >extended keyboards, where the Control key should be? Is this in accordance >with an accepted standard, for ergonomic reasons, or what? The explanation that Apple gave at a recent presentation was that it had been changed to conform to "international standards". Now, why anyone would want to have the control and escape keys in the wrong place as a standard is beyond me, but... :) >----- >Piper Keairnes >ar4@sage.cc.purdue.edu -- Draphsor vo'drun-Aelf draphsor@portia.stanford.edu
macman@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Dennis H Lippert) (10/24/90)
In article <4694@sage.cc.purdue.edu> ar4@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Piper Keairnes) writes: <<stuff deleted>> > >Why on earth is the Caps-lock key far left on the middle row of keys on >extended keyboards, where the Control key should be? Is this in accordance >with an accepted standard, for ergonomic reasons, or what? > >----- >Piper Keairnes >ar4@sage.cc.purdue.edu Well, this IBM compatible that I'm sitting at (don't worry, I'm anti-IBM :-)) has the caps-lock key in this position. So the extended is forgiven. Now, why is the Classic different? Furthermore, why don't the snall keyboards have any function keys. My TRS-80 Model III had three, just like a VT-100. There are a few things a VT does, that I can't figure out how to do on a Plus, becausethere are no function keys. Any replies welcome! Dennis Lippert macman@unix.cis.pitt.edu
roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) (10/24/90)
macman@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Dennis H Lippert) writes: > There are a few things a VT does, that I can't figure out how to do on > a Plus, because there are no function keys. As long as you have escape and the printing ascii characters, you should be able to simulate any function key you want, if you are desparate enough! You want to hear about brain damaged? Some years ago (1982 or so?) we bought a NEC spinwriter (7700, I think). They keyboard had no [ and ] (actually, I think { and } might have been missing too). -- Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu -OR- {att,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy "Arcane? Did you say arcane? It wouldn't be Unix if it wasn't arcane!"
kent@circus.camex.com (Kent Borg) (10/25/90)
In article <draphsor.656718353@elaine4.stanford.edu> draphsor@elaine4.stanford.edu (Matt Rollefson) writes: >ar4@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Piper Keairnes) writes: > >>Why on earth is the Caps-lock key far left on the middle row of keys on >>extended keyboards, where the Control key should be? Is this in accordance >>with an accepted standard, for ergonomic reasons, or what? > >The explanation that Apple gave at a recent presentation was that it had >been changed to conform to "international standards". Now, why anyone >would want to have the control and escape keys in the wrong place as a >standard is beyond me, but... :) Simple. There are (at least) two ways to arrange a keyboard. For a programmer or for a typist. Programmers want the control key above the left shift key. Typists say: "What's a 'control key'? Where is the shift-lock?" Question: If you are selling Macintoshes and want them to be approachable, easy to use machines, which group do you cater to? Typists, of course. (Nothing in the Mac is done for programmers' convienience, why should the keyboard???) Also remember that the Mac itself doesn't use the control key. There were three different Macs before the first control key showed up on a Macintosh keyboard from Apple. Control keys are mostly used by communications programs, and only the old fashioned "glass tty" monsters at that. More modern communications programs like America Online, AppleLink, and MacNet never use the control keys. Control keys should be as obsolete to computers as UPPERCASE ONLY...maybe we should banish *both* keys. -- Kent Borg internet: kent@camex.com AOL: kent borg H:(617) 776-6899 W:(617) 426-3577 "The prospect of their mass excites astrophysicists, who are always on the lookout for ways to make the universe heavier" -- The Economist, 9-22-90
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (10/25/90)
In article <1590@camex.COM> kent@camex.com (Kent Borg) writes: >In article <draphsor.656718353@elaine4.stanford.edu> draphsor@elaine4.stanford.edu (Matt Rollefson) writes: >>ar4@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Piper Keairnes) writes: >> >>>Why on earth is the Caps-lock key far left on the middle row of keys on >>>extended keyboards, where the Control key should be? Is this in accordance >>>with an accepted standard, for ergonomic reasons, or what? >> >>The explanation that Apple gave at a recent presentation was that it had >>been changed to conform to "international standards". Now, why anyone >>would want to have the control and escape keys in the wrong place as a >>standard is beyond me, but... :) > >Simple. There are (at least) two ways to arrange a keyboard. For a >programmer or for a typist. > >Programmers want the control key above the left shift key. Typists >say: "What's a 'control key'? Where is the shift-lock?" Funny, I have an ancient (pre-Apple II) electric typewriter. The shift-lock is BELOW the shift keys, on both sides. (where the control key is on the Extended keyboard) >Control keys should be as obsolete to computers as UPPERCASE >ONLY...maybe we should banish *both* keys. Control keys are necessary for those of us who still use Unix (remember that old dinosaur) to read news... Just think of it as another 'option' key. -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) (10/25/90)
From article <1590@camex.COM>, by kent@circus.camex.com (Kent Borg): > Simple. There are (at least) two ways to arrange a keyboard. For a > programmer or for a typist. > > Question: If you are selling Macintoshes and want them to be > approachable, easy to use machines, which group do you cater to? > Typists, of course. (Nothing in the Mac is done for programmers' > convienience, why should the keyboard???) This does not make sense, given the evidence of the keyboard itself. If Macintosh keyboards were designed for typists, the clover key would be placed somewhere other than where it breaks your wrist to type it. -- Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu "Was all of this because I wore a big man's hat?"
kent@circus.camex.com (Kent Borg) (10/25/90)
In article <3329@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> bin@primate.wisc.edu writes: >From article <1590@camex.COM>, by kent@circus.camex.com (Kent Borg): >> Simple. There are (at least) two ways to arrange a keyboard. For a >> programmer or for a typist. >> >> Question: If you are selling Macintoshes and want them to be >> approachable, easy to use machines, which group do you cater to? >> Typists, of course. (Nothing in the Mac is done for programmers' >> convienience, why should the keyboard???) > >This does not make sense, given the evidence of the keyboard itself. > >If Macintosh keyboards were designed for typists, the clover key >would be placed somewhere other than where it breaks your wrist to >type it. Heh! I never said that Macintosh keyboards were designed for typists. A little look at the history of Macintosh keyboards will reveal that they were not designed with a clear head at all, let alone for a clear audience. (Notice that this new keyboard has yet *another* layout.) When designing anything, understand your audience, know their expectations, and try to think clearly. My point was about where to put control keys and caps-lock (nee shift-lock) keys, that typewriter keyboards out number and predate computer keyboards, that their traditional layouts should have real weight in these considerations. >In article <1590@camex.COM> I also said: >Control keys should be as obsolete to computers as UPPERCASE >ONLY...maybe we should banish *both* keys. I was exagerating. Don't take it to mean that I don't recognize that control keys are necessary on realistic keyboards. Yes, Unix (and Emacs which I am using now) and most other ASCII-based computers require a control key. My point is that Mac programs that are not talking to archaic computers should not be using the control key; that Mac programs that can do fonts and bold and italics have little reason for a caps-lock. The proverbial "My Mom" has *no* need for a control key and has very, very little need for a caps-lock. (My actual mom uses a Plus, does email using MacNet and AOL, and knows how to use italics and bold for most former uses of all-caps. Ask her: borgh@dcjcon.das.net) Seems a waste to use that valuable spot above the left shift key on either function, but I think caps-lock clearly wins on an approachable computer like the Mac. Us weirdos who use antiques like Unix and tty-style BBS's will just have to adjust. -- Kent Borg internet: kent@camex.com AOL: kent borg H:(617) 776-6899 W:(617) 426-3577 "The prospect of their mass excites astrophysicists, who are always on the lookout for ways to make the universe heavier" -- The Economist, 9-22-90
dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) (10/26/90)
>Well, i'm not so sure that we can switch the locations of the caps lock key and >the control key. The caps lock key is a different mechanism than the control >key. (ie: it stays in when you press down). Don't be so sure. You could do so on the original mac keyboards. Keys are usually very modular things; locks are often add-ons. Add-ons can be moved somewhere else (or removed; I use caps lock about once a week, so I wouldn't miss it (much) if it were gone). -- Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office Internet: s-dorner@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!s-dorner
jtc@latcs1.oz.au (John Catsoulis) (10/27/90)
In article <1591@camex.COM> kent@camex.com (Kent Borg) writes: >My point is that Mac programs that are not talking to archaic >computers .... Don't call *my* SPARCstation archaic!! :-) John jtc@ee.latrobe.edu.au
wwtaroli@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Bill Taroli) (10/29/90)
In article <1590@camex.COM> kent@camex.com (Kent Borg) writes: >Question: If you are selling Macintoshes and want them to be >approachable, easy to use machines, which group do you cater to? >Typists, of course. (Nothing in the Mac is done for programmers' >convienience, why should the keyboard???) Agreed. However, almost 90% of all the users I'm aquainted with (be they Mac users or not) are NOT typists and they are NOT programmers. They are computer users who have better things to do with their time than learn how to type or program. In fact, I think it has been noted on many occasions that there are proportionally fewer computer users that can touch-type than those who can. >Also remember that the Mac itself doesn't use the control key. There >were three different Macs before the first control key showed up on a >Macintosh keyboard from Apple. Control keys are mostly used by >communications programs, and only the old fashioned "glass tty" >monsters at that. More modern communications programs like America >Online, AppleLink, and MacNet never use the control keys. Perhaps the realization that Macs are not always used in Macintosh environments hit someone. I know that I routinely use my Mac to communicate with systems that do not involve my investment in yet another program. I find TTY (or VTxxx) communications a standard staple in all involvement with systems that we traditionally think of as computing powerhouses. So, until DEC, IBM, Sun, etc, etc, decide to support Mac-like interfaces across Async communicaton lines I will demand my TTY emulators! >Control keys should be as obsolete to computers as UPPERCASE >ONLY...maybe we should banish *both* keys. You must not use either traditional BBSes or large computer systems. In many instances, to properly use a remote system without a Control key would be like asking you to breathe without lungs. -- ******************************************************************************* * Bill Taroli (WWTAROLI@RODAN.acs.syr.edu) | "You can and must understand * * Syracuse University, Syracuse NY | computers NOW!" -- Ted Nelson * *******************************************************************************
cs325ax@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David Hull) (10/31/90)
>In article <1590@camex.COM> kent@camex.com (Kent Borg) writes: >Control keys should be as obsolete to computers as UPPERCASE >ONLY...maybe we should banish *both* keys. The control key is to a traditional OS as the option and command keys are to the Mac. Are you suggesting that they should be banished as well? Control characters have the advantage that they are are supported by an international standard (ISO whatever). If the Mac is expected to connect to other systems it should have some way of generating the data that they expect. -David
geoff@pmafire.UUCP (Geoff Allen) (10/31/90)
wwtaroli@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Bill Taroli) writes: >In article <1590@camex.COM> kent@camex.com (Kent Borg) writes: > >>Control keys should be as obsolete to computers as UPPERCASE >>ONLY...maybe we should banish *both* keys. > >You must not use either traditional BBSes or large computer systems. In many >instances, to properly use a remote system without a Control key would be like >asking you to breathe without lungs. I took the quoted statement to be stating the *ideal*. Not that there is no need for control keys, but that there shouldn't be a need for control keys. Whether you agree with *that* is a different matter. -- Geoff Allen \ Computers are useless. uunet!pmafire!geoff \ They can only give you answers. bigtex!pmafire!geoff \ -- Pablo Picasso