wieser@cs-sun-fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Bernhard Wieser) (10/29/90)
I guess I should provide some rebut to my rebuke. Ignoring most of the irrelevant stuff; I would have no problems with emulators if they were created by the company which originated the machine being emulated. In fact, if Mac ever moves to 88k based machines, they'll supposedly have their own emulators to be backward compatible. But, Amax is not by Apple; currently you have to buy the Mac ROMs to be legal (until such time as RS re-writes them). Amax users I know have complained that these can be hard to find, so they have them in software (which is illegal). Say Amax hardware and software is comparable to a 'clone'. Clones are illegal (in Canada anyway). So Amax re-writes the ROMs to call it a 'compatible'. Now, as most know from the IBM world, this means that some software can't run. Why should I (as developer) support that portion of users? They're too small to count. Beside, I wrote the software to work on the family of machines it was designed for. According to some software licenses, you can't copy/translate software. I remember using Amax without a Mac drive, where you had to 'convert' the Mac software to Amax format. Doesn't this count as a breach of some licenses? My complaint about Joe user running software on both his Mac and his Amiga was misunderstood. If I support both platforms, then I don't want him buying one copy for both. I want him buying the software designed for the specific machine. (More money for me.) Regarding 'competition'; if the emulator is 'exact' in detail, it's not competition but theft. Sure, who cares as long as I get the money? Well, if I put resources into creating Macintosh software, specializing to some degree, its like cutting my own throat to let it run on emultors. Its more of a philosophy; if I support Macintosh by writing software for it, I promote the concepts behind it. If I supported emulators, I am supporting income to the detriment of the emulated platform. So, does it create markets for Mac developers, or does it hurt them by letting Mac markets loose a small amount. Apple put money into developing a machine and supporting their developers, so why shouldn't I support Apple? Computers are tools; you use the ones which best aid your task. Emulation is generally useless because it doesn't provide the full features of the underlying machine. It does provide a host of other problems. People should buy the machine which they want to run software on, they'll have fewer headaches. (I find great discomfort in seeing people get so sensational and emotional over such topics). Bernie
davids@ucscf.UCSC.EDU (Dave Schreiber) (10/29/90)
In article <1990Oct28.204712.4261@cpsc.ucalgary.ca> wieser@cs-sun-fsa.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Bernhard Wieser) writes:
.I guess I should provide some rebut to my rebuke.
.Ignoring most of the irrelevant stuff;
.I would have no problems with emulators if they were created by the company
.which originated the machine being emulated. In fact, if Mac ever moves to 88k
.based machines, they'll supposedly have their own emulators to be backward
.compatible. But, Amax is not by Apple; currently you have to buy the Mac ROMs
.to be legal (until such time as RS re-writes them). Amax users I know have
.complained that these can be hard to find, so they have them in software (which is
.illegal).
.Say Amax hardware and software is comparable to a 'clone'. Clones are illegal (in
.Canada anyway). So Amax re-writes the ROMs to call it a 'compatible'. Now, as
This product doesn't exist. If and when it comes into being, you will
have a more valid argument. A product that hasn't been released, announced,
or even rumored to exist is a very unstable foundation on which to base
a line of reasoning.
.most know from the IBM world, this means that some software can't run. Why
.should I (as developer) support that portion of users? They're too small to count.
If the software won't run under AMax, then why do you need to the software
to check to see if its under AMax? I agree that you shouldn't have to
support AMax. However, I don't believe anyone here has said you should.
What they've been complaining about is your desire for your software to
check and see if it's running under AMax, and to refuse to continue if
it is.
.Beside, I wrote the software to work on the family of machines it was designed for.
.According to some software licenses, you can't copy/translate software. I remember
.using Amax without a Mac drive, where you had to 'convert' the Mac software to
.Amax format. Doesn't this count as a breach of some licenses?
You're moving it from one media type to another. This is no more a
"conversion" than installing it on a hard drive. It also doesn't
account for people who buy Mac compatible floppy drives.
.My complaint about Joe user running software on both his Mac and his Amiga was
.misunderstood. If I support both platforms, then I don't want him buying one copy
.for both. I want him buying the software designed for the specific machine. (More
.money for me.)
_IF_ you support both platforms? Well, do you or don't you? If you do,
your argument's reasonable. If not, then you're basing a line of
reasoning on a non-existent product again (see above).
.Regarding 'competition'; if the emulator is 'exact' in detail, it's not competition but
.theft. Sure, who cares as long as I get the money? Well, if I put resources into
Theft? Buying a Macintosh ROM constitutes theft? I thought you said it
was legal (again, see above).
.creating Macintosh software, specializing to some degree, its like cutting my own
.throat to let it run on emultors. Its more of a philosophy; if I support Macintosh by
.writing software for it, I promote the concepts behind it. If I supported emulators, I
Again, no one who's using an emulator is expecting any sort of special
treatment out of you.
.am supporting income to the detriment of the emulated platform. So, does it create
.markets for Mac developers, or does it hurt them by letting Mac markets loose a
.small amount.
Look at the IBM clone market. Does it look like MS-DOS developers got
hurt?
.Apple put money into developing a machine and supporting their developers, so
.why shouldn't I support Apple? Computers are tools; you use the ones which best
Does Apple pay you? Why would you support a company that doesn't give
you anything, while at the same time block people who want to PAY you
for your software?
.aid your task. Emulation is generally useless because it doesn't provide the full
.features of the underlying machine. It does provide a host of other problems.
If it handles the job the purchaser wants, then it's not useless.
.People should buy the machine which they want to run software on, they'll have
.fewer headaches.
.(I find great discomfort in seeing people get so sensational and emotional over such
.topics).
.Bernie
As an aside, please format your postings for 80 columns in the future
(apologies to the net for not formatting the quoted lines for 80 columns,
but I'm not familiar enough with Unix text manipulation utilities to do
this).davids@ucscf.UCSC.EDU (Dave Schreiber) (10/29/90)
In article <8264@darkstar.ucsc.edu> davids@ucscf.UCSC.EDU (Dave Schreiber) writes: > >If the software won't run under AMax, then why do you need to the software >to check to see if its under AMax? I agree that you shouldn't have to >support AMax. However, I don't believe anyone here has said you should. shouldn't have to support AMax == shouldn't have to buy an Amiga with AMax and make sure that it runs under that configuration. He should still provide support, of course, when it's something like "how do I do such and such..." Sorry for any lack of clarity. ... And I noticed that my signature got left off. Ah, the perils of a new account. Here's a quick substitute: -Dave Schreiber at davids@ucscb.ucsc.edu or davids@slugmail.ucsc.edu "Coffee, Darling?"
boris@world.std.com (Boris Levitin) (10/29/90)
Berhnard Wieser continues defending his right to A-Max-proof his MacOS software. His arguments have already been dealt with, and, besides, it seems that my fellow Mac users would like no more Amiga-related discussion in this newsgroup, so I'll make just one comment: Bernhard, you will find many who will agree with your professed desire not to have religious wars and infighting over whose hardware platform is best. I feel this way too. That's why I am puzzled by your irrationally petty and vindictive wish to sabotage the few people who might attempt to run your programs on their A-Max-equipped Amigas. If you don't treat your customers graciously but let them know that you view them as, essentially, cash cows, they will do to you what they have already done to publishers who copy- protected their software or put in hardware locks: buy from the competition instead. Besides, A-Max is hardly a threat: I know just one person who even uses a Macintosh emulator, one on the Atari. Your software would have to be pretty popular before emulators would register even a bleep on your balance sheet. So, let the A-Max users live in peace, and, as they supposedly say in California, "chill." Back to Mac-related topics... Boris Levitin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WGBH Public Broadcasting, Boston boris@world.std.com Audience & Marketing Research wgbx!boris_levitin@athena.mit.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (The opinions expressed herein are my own and do not necessarily coincide with those of my employer or anyone else. The WGBH tag is for ID only.)
kreme@isis.cs.du.edu (Jabberwocky) (10/30/90)
All this discussion has failed to mention one point. If a person writes a peice of software he has every right to write it however he wants. If he chooses to make it run ONLY on a Mac SE that is his choice, if he has it check the SE ROMs for the correct graphic bitmaps and to exit if it doesn't find them that's up to him. If he wants it to only run on a "real" Mac an not on an emulator, that's up to him. And it's up to you not to buy it if you don't like it. Nothing wrong with either one. Personally, I do not approve of amax for a variety of reasons, and I would be perfectly happy if Macintosh programers crippled it by insuring that thier programs would not run on it. I guess the reason I most diapprove of the amax is because the Amiga is another CLOSED system. It doesn't use standard ANYTHING (the 3000 may have corrected this). I don't like closed systems. If I wrote Macintosh apps I would try to make them break on an emulator... -- | kreme@nyx.cs.du.edu |Growing up leads to growing old, and then to dying, and| |---------------------|dying to me don't sound like all that much fun. | | Hide the wenches and batten down the access codes... year about to be | | BOARDED, Ye scurvy Network News Dogs! Har Har! |
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (10/30/90)
In article <1990Oct30.073752.12080@isis.cs.du.edu> kreme@isis.UUCP (Jabberwocky) writes: >I guess the reason I most diapprove of the amax is because the Amiga is >another CLOSED system. It doesn't use standard ANYTHING (the 3000 may have >corrected this). I don't like closed systems. If I wrote Macintosh apps >I would try to make them break on an emulator... What are you referring to when you say standard? If I know where you are coming from (which I probably don't 8) the only REAL open system is IBM because they allow clones and this makes it a standard. The Amiga, as well as the Mac and many other systems, supports the standards of SCSI, Ethernet, Arcnet, Novell, TCP-IP, NFS, RS-232, centronics parallel. The A3000 has a VGA-style output port, and so does a just-released add-on board for A2000s. You can use any printer, not just one made by Commmodore (thank God! 8). You can use any modem (of course). etc. >-- >| kreme@nyx.cs.du.edu |Growing up leads to growing old, and then to dying, and| >|---------------------|dying to me don't sound like all that much fun. | >| Hide the wenches and batten down the access codes... year about to be | >| BOARDED, Ye scurvy Network News Dogs! Har Har! | -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu GorbachevAwards++; free (SovietUnion); IndependentRepublics += 15;
davids@ucscf.UCSC.EDU (Dave Schreiber) (10/31/90)
In article <1990Oct30.073752.12080@isis.cs.du.edu> kreme@isis.UUCP (Jabberwocky) writes: [...] >I guess the reason I most diapprove of the amax is because the Amiga is >another CLOSED system. It doesn't use standard ANYTHING (the 3000 may have >corrected this). I don't like closed systems. If I wrote Macintosh apps >I would try to make them break on an emulator... I want to say right off the bat that this is not a flame, nor do I wish it to become a religous argument. However, I must ask two things. First, how do you define closed (it's usually used to mean non-expandable; but every Amiga has had SOME sort of expansion built into it). Secondly, and as one non-MS-DOS machine owner to another :-), how do you define non-standard? Thanks. >| kreme@nyx.cs.du.edu |Growing up leads to growing old, and then to dying, and| [Hoping my .signature works this time...] -- Dave Schreiber davids@slugmail.ucsc.edu or (but not both) davids@ucscb.ucsc.edu "It was fun learning about logic, but I don't see where or when I will ever use it again."
jeh@sisd.kodak.com (Ed Hanway) (11/01/90)
wieser@cs-sun-fsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Bernhard Wieser) writes: >I would like to have >my software NOT run when it sees an emulator. Well as long as you are going to make arbitrary decisions about what machines are fit to be graced with your software, why not read the SCSI ID of any hard disks and make sure that they are genuine Apple? After all, if someone buys a non-Apple disk they're not supporting Apple, right? And don't forget to disallow things like third-party accellerator and graphics cards. After all, if the user wants a faster machine or better graphics, how dare he buy third-party when he should be contributing to Apple's profits? And while you're at it, why limit yourself to hardware checks? Scan the user's disk and refuse to run if you find any disk copying programs, because only pirates use those, right? How about having the user fill in a questionare and disabling the program if you don't agree with his political beliefs? Funny, in the IBM PC world, new programs are sold every day that omit these vital safeguards, and IBM doesn't seem to have suffered because of it. Ed Hanway uunet!sisd!jeh
nayeri@cs.umass.edu (Farshad Nayeri) (11/02/90)
In article <1990Oct31.165428.22226@sisd.kodak.com> jeh@sisd.kodak.com (Ed Hanway) writes: wieser@cs-sun-fsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Bernhard Wieser) writes: >I would like to have >my software NOT run when it sees an emulator. And while you're at it, why limit yourself to hardware checks? Scan the user's disk and refuse to run if you find any disk copying programs, because only pirates use those, right? How about having the user fill in a questionare and disabling the program if you don't agree with his political beliefs? I just couldn't stop myself from posting this extract of the manpage on dvips for you: It is a great piece of software! > >SEE ALSO > mf(1), afm2tfm(1), tex(1), latex(1), lpr(1) > >BUGS > Rejects any file with the string "IBM" in it. This is con- > sidered to be a feature by some. > >AUTHOR > Tomas Rokicki <rokicki@neon.stanford.edu>; extended to vir- > tual fonts by Don Knuth. > But I think this one is supposed to be a joke. --farshad -- Farshad Nayeri Object Oriented Systems Group nayeri@cs.umass.edu Dept. of Computer and Information Science (413)545-0256 University of Massachusetts at Amherst