sinteur@ooc.uva.nl (John Sinteur) (11/09/90)
The subject says it all... just joking..
bowler@athena.mit.edu (albert smith) (11/09/90)
In article <15460@slice.ooc.uva.nl> sinteur@ooc.uva.nl (John Sinteur) writes: >The subject says it all... > >just joking.. Shouldn't that be comp.sys.mac.vs.NeXT ? -- ___________________________________ albert smith, bowler@athena.mit.edu ___________________________________
jtgorman@cs.arizona.edu (Quaestor) (11/09/90)
In article <1990Nov8.201931.16106@athena.mit.edu> bowler@athena.mit.edu (albert smith) writes: >In article <15460@slice.ooc.uva.nl> sinteur@ooc.uva.nl (John Sinteur) writes: >>The subject says it all... >> >>just joking.. > >Shouldn't that be comp.sys.mac.vs.NeXT ? I think that this is really a valid idea. Let's get the discussion out of this group and back to things that *help* Mac users. Maybe the new group should be comp.sys.mac.NeXT.flame or something like that, because this is not a discussion, it is a thermonuclear war.
Garance_Drosehn@mts.rpi.edu (Garance Drosehn) (11/09/90)
In article <1990Nov8.201931.16106@athena.mit.edu> bowler@athena.mit.edu (albert smith) writes: > In article <15460@slice.ooc.uva.nl> > sinteur@ooc.uva.nl (John Sinteur) writes: > >The subject says it all... > > > >just joking.. > > Shouldn't that be comp.sys.mac.vs.NeXT ? I'd vote for either of them. The second is better though, because it naturally allows for comp.sys.mac.vs.amiga and similar groups. I'd rather just shoot the evangelists who feel that this newsgroup is advertising space for their favorite machine, be it NeXT or Amiga or the Belchfire 2000, but I imagine that is against the law. I don't have the money or the inclination to get a NeXT just yet, but if I did I'd be looking in a comp.sys.next.* newsgroup for any and all information on that box. But then, I suppose that just proves how stupid my brain is, thinking that the usenet heirarchy meant much of anything to anyone. Maybe the trick is that I should be reading comp.sys.next.misc for information on Macs? Garance_Drosehn@mts.rpi.edu ITS Systems Programmer Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY. USA
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (11/09/90)
------ In article <1990Nov8.230907.12910@agate.berkeley.edu>, knrgroup@garnet.berkeley.edu (Raymond group) writes... [...] > >As for whether the Mac vs. NeXT discussion belongs in this newsgroup. >It's only fair, since Mac and Sun aficionados have been over in the NeXT newsgroup. >Just check for old articles with "vs" or "Mac" or "Sun" in the subject line. Well, just to put things in perspective, whenever I have posted an article critical of the Next in comp.sys.next I am routinely -- and relatively quickly -- flamed. Basically what people say is "This is a Next group: keep non-Next stuff out of it!". I'm all for the free dissemination of information, but it seems like the Next people can dish it out but can't take it. Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
knrgroup@garnet.berkeley.edu (Raymond group) (11/09/90)
Garane_Drosehn@mts.rpi.edu (Garance Drosehn) writes: >I'd rather just shoot the evangelists who feel that this >newsgroup is advertising space for their favorite machine We love you too. Just remember that the Mac got where it was because of word of mouth and evangelism. As for whether the Mac vs. NeXT discussion belongs in this newsgroup. It's only fair, since Mac and Sun aficionados have been over in the NeXT newsgroup. Just check for old articles with "vs" or "Mac" or "Sun" in the subject line. I think that the discussion here has been relatively controlled, with virtually no personal flammage. For the great part, we're debating facts and I'm learning a lot about the Mac, and Mac users are, I hope, learning a lot about the NeXT.
lange@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Trent Lange) (11/09/90)
In article <J4$^X0$@rpi.edu> Garance_Drosehn@mts.rpi.edu (Garance Drosehn) writes: > >I'd rather just shoot the evangelists who feel that this newsgroup is >advertising space for their favorite machine, be it NeXT or Amiga or the >Belchfire 2000, but I imagine that is against the law. As several people have said, a lot of people are learning about both Macs and the NeXTs in these discussions, with a lot of false impressions being corrected. For many people, these are very valuable (and interesting) discussions. But for those of you who *aren't* interested, all you have to do is learn how to use your KILL file, and you never have to be bothered by discussions about the NeXT or Amiga again. A single "K" in rn would have zapped the whole "Another NeXT defector" subject line, for instance. - Trent Lange -- ************************************************************************ * UCLA: Perfecting the art of arthroscopic surgery. * ************************************************************************
knrgroup@garnet.berkeley.edu (Raymond group) (11/09/90)
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >Basically what people say is "This is the NeXT group: keep non-NeXT >stuff out of it" If what you say is the case, I sympathize. Computer comparisons, in my personal opinion, do pertain to a newsgroup's topic. They're also a lot of fun to read. >I'm all for the free dissemination of information, but it >seems like the NeXT people can dish it out but can't take it NeXT people, Mac people, green people. We're all basically the same. Some people just have authoritarian impulses and don't want differing opinions or uninteresting (to them) topics aired and discussed.
Garance_Drosehn@mts.rpi.edu (Garance Drosehn) (11/09/90)
In article <1990Nov9.000143.16647@cs.ucla.edu> lange@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Trent Lange) writes: > As several people have said, a lot of people are learning about both Macs > and the NeXTs in these discussions, with a lot of false impressions being > corrected. For many people, these are very valuable (and interesting) > discussions. > > But for those of you who *aren't* interested, all you have to do is > learn how to use your KILL file, and you never have to be bothered > by discussions about the NeXT or Amiga again. A single "K" in rn > would have zapped the whole "Another NeXT defector" subject line, > for instance. Some people aren't running Unix. Just because we're in a newsgroup talking about Macs does not mean that we must be looking at it from a Unix system (as hard as it might be for you to believe, at least a few of the people who own Macs do not run Unix). We're looking at it because we were under the silly impression that the newsgroup would be a place to learn how to use the Macs we own, and not a place to be pummelled with advertisements for a machine we do not own (and perhaps couldn't afford to buy if we wanted to). The NeXT is a fine machine in many ways, no doubt. That does not mean it has to be discussed in this newsgroup, any more than it needs to be discussed in alt.rec.music. We first saw a stream of messages in here about Amigas, and now we're in the process of more than half the traffic in this newsgroup being "the correction of false impressions" of the NeXT box. I suppose next week it will be Sun's turn, explaining why Sparc stations left all 680x0 machines in the dust, and the following week we'll have IBM to explain why the only *real* machine is a RS/6000. Every one of them can fly the banner of "we're just innocently trying to help dispell some myths", or "we're only here to help you all", but the point is this newsgroup is for Macs. It ain't for every box out there which wants to advertise to Mac users. What point is the usenet heirarchy if we're all running into each others newsgroups to advertise the things that we happen to like about the areas we happen to be interested in? Sure, all the Unix gurus can just do their "k"s and skip it, but why carry on the charade of a heirarchy in the first place if no one intends to honor it? Garance_Drosehn@mts.rpi.edu ITS Systems Programmer Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY. USA
Garance_Drosehn@mts.rpi.edu (Garance Drosehn) (11/09/90)
In article <1990Nov8.230907.12910@agate.berkeley.edu> knrgroup@garnet.berkeley.edu (Raymond group) writes: > Just remember that the Mac got where it was because of word of mouth and > evangelism. Funny, I bought a Mac because I liked it when I saw it. I did not have someone running around into every computer discussion I was in and saying "Dump what you got, get a Mac". And I was somewhat more interested in the new NeXT machines before the persistent thread of NeXT advertisements poured into this newsgroup. We have had someone in this thread say that "they definitely plan to buy a NeXT" (note, a NeXT) but that they thought the Mac still had the advantage because "NeXT does not have color as an option". How can we take an article like this seriously? Here someone is trying to tell us that they are willing to spend thousands of dollars on a machine, when they know so little about that machine that they don't even know it has color as an option. Every NeXT article I've seen for the last few months has mentioned color, how can it be that this person has missed it? But, of course, it was good for twenty-odd messages where everyone "cleared up" this poor persons facts, going to great detail about color on the NeXT. Didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, but apparently this NeXT user didn't know it and felt it was important to bring up this ignorance in a Mac newsgroup. Me, I would have asked in a NeXT newsgroup, but then I'm just a silly person who looks at the name of the newsgroup before I post. Maybe Mac users were just as obnoxious in the early days of the Mac. All I'm saying is that I didn't get hit with them if they were around. I bought the Mac because I liked it. Someday I might buy the NeXT machine (honest, I do think it is interesting in many ways), but I won't need to post messages in the wrong newsgroup to make up my mind. I was really interested in the original NeXT until I got my hands on one. I refuse to make any decision on the new NeXT unless I get my hands on one. Once burned, twice shy. And no matter how many articles are posted in this newgroup, my decision will be based on that experience and not on how much the NeXT afficiandos try to tell me about chip speeds or the number of device drivers that are available for a NeXT. It certainly won't be decided on the fact that Lotus (tremendous source of innovative software that it is) is making things for the NeXT platform. Given the track record they have had in the Mac world, I'd almost think that was a mark against NeXT. But I believe that Wingz has a NeXT version, so I'm not going to toss out the NeXT just because Lotus is developing on it. However, to stick to the subject on this thread, if any of this "excuse me while I ram this information down your throat" discussions have to go on, I think they should go on in an appropriately named newsgroup. Maybe have a comp.sys.mac.vs.next and a comp.sys.next.vs.mac, and have all articles cross-posted to both, so no one has to feel bad about which machine is mentioned first in the newsgroup name. Garance_Alistair_Drosehn@mts.rpi.edu ITS Systems Programmer Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY. USA
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (11/09/90)
In article <1990Nov8.230907.12910@agate.berkeley.edu> knrgroup@garnet.berkeley.edu (Raymond group) writes: >I think that the discussion here has been relatively controlled, with >virtually no personal flammage. For the great part, we're debating facts >and I'm learning a lot about the Mac, and Mac users are, I hope, learning >a lot about the NeXT. Agreed. Unlike that check-mark computer. Perhaps because both the Mac and NeXT have merits, unlike that check-mark thing. It really hurts to see the same arguments advanced against the NeXT that were advanced against the Mac in the first place-- I remember seeing them (memory too small, no hard disk, no software, in the Mac case. No software, no one will want to learn anything new in the Next case), when I had a Lisa. I personally don't think the Next will succeed as a personal computer, which is what I am interested in. And since Jobs doesn't seem to have decided whether it is a PC or a workstation, it may fail for that reason. -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu Tax the rich, and feed the poor -- until there are, rich no more.
vook@narnia.rtp.dg.com (Eric R Vook) (11/10/90)
You know, a few Mac vs. NeXT comparisons go a long way. Its not really a
big deal to me whose machine is the "ultimate" one if they both do what
I need to get done at a price I can afford. I write, draw, spreadsheet
(new verb) and play on my Mac. I do my "real" computing on another machine;
guess who makes it? :-)
What I wanted to contribute to this discussion is just the comment that
if anyone is really tired of all the Mac vs NeXT stuff in this group, try
this:
* start up your news reader,
* read a few of the latest Mac vs. NeXT articles just to be sure they
are banging the same old issues.
* if they are, do a kill on the whole lot.
Don't put it in your kill file. If you do that, you miss out on the
pleasure of watching article after article succumb to deletion.. (Besides,
you might find one day that articles with Mac vs NeXT subjects ARE actually
talking about something new! :-)
I say, let 'em talk on. Just listen when you want to.
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Eric R Vook | Face reality as it is,
Data General Corporation | not as it was
vook@dg-rtp.dg.com | or as you wish it were. (Jack Welch)dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com (Dennis Francis Heffernan) (11/10/90)
RE comp.sys.mac.vs.NeXT Don't laugh. Over in c.s.amiga, we've put up a proposal for a new group just to handle these flame wars. (Yes, there is justice in the world- the NeXT mutants are all over csa too.) dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of everything...haven't you learned; if it's not happenning to me it's not important?" -Murphy Brown
KPURCELL@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (11/10/90)
In article <512@caslon.cs.arizona.edu>, jtgorman@cs.arizona.edu (Quaestor) says: > >In article <1990Nov8.201931.16106@athena.mit.edu> bowler@athena.mit.edu >(albert >smith) writes: >>In article <15460@slice.ooc.uva.nl> sinteur@ooc.uva.nl (John Sinteur) writes: >>>The subject says it all... >>> >>>just joking.. >> >>Shouldn't that be comp.sys.mac.vs.NeXT ? > > I think that this is really a valid idea. Let's get the discussion out of >this group and back to things that *help* Mac users. > Maybe the new group should be comp.sys.mac.NeXT.flame or something like >that, because this is not a discussion, it is a thermonuclear war. As anybody following NeXT-L or the associated group will know this happens all the time over there. We my personal preference is for the PCjr [dodge thrown vegetables and exit stage left :-)] Kevin Purcell | kpurcell@liverpool.ac.uk -or- kgp@cxa.dl.ac.uk Surface Science, | Liverpool University | There is now a *Twin Peaks* email discussion list for Liverpool L69 3BX | UK Peak Freaks. Mail me for details ....
strustee@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott Forbes) (11/11/90)
Garance_Drosehn@mts.rpi.edu (Garance Drosehn) writes: >However, to stick to the subject on this thread, if any of this "excuse me >while I ram this information down your throat" discussions have to go on, >I think they should go on in an appropriately named newsgroup. Maybe have ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >a comp.sys.mac.vs.next and a comp.sys.next.vs.mac, and have all articles >cross-posted to both, so no one has to feel bad about which machine is >mentioned first in the newsgroup name. How about "comp.sys.mine.is.bigger" or "alt.computers.freudian"? :-) Seriously, the whole Mac vs. NeXT vs. Amiga vs. IBM line of discussion is supposed to happen in alt.religion.computers, not the various threads devoted to specific machines. -- Scott Forbes strustee@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu -- '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' Scott Forbes "If the going gets tough, strustee@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu a person should stop and figure out why"
knrgroup@garnet.berkeley.edu (Raymond group) (11/11/90)
I've noticed an interesting trend. Regardless of the newsgroup or topic,
whenever there's a flame war, there are people who will eventually
make the following arguments:
1. The debate in question is boring and off the topic (disregard the
fact that a large number of people are getting involved in the
debate and that many people seem to be TOO rather than UN-interested).
2. The opposition is egregiously wrong on such and such points. However,
the opposition is not entirely without merit in their arguments.
Let's just stop talking about this, shall we?
I sometimes tend to fall into the 2nd mode. Others fall more often into the
first. The 2nd mode of argument is probably as useless as the first in that
the debater insults or criticizes the arguments of his opponent before
extending the hand of reconciliation. Kind of like saying, "Here, take that
punch. Now, we can shake hands."
Have others noticed this phenomenon? I think it is a much a motivator for
the continuation of flame wars as it is an attempt to end them.
Lest people get the wrong impression; this post is not an attempt to end
any flame war. It is just an observation about life as I see it on the net.
Flame away.Adam.Frix@p2.f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Frix) (11/12/90)
knrgroup@garnet.berkeley.edu (Raymond group) writes in a message on 08 Nov 90: RG> I think that the discussion here has been relatively controlled, RG> with virtually no personal flammage. For the great part, we're RG> debating facts and I'm learning a lot about the Mac, and Mac RG> users are, I hope, learning a lot about the NeXT. I agree. The discussion has been lively without being overbearing, the facts that have come out are of tremendous value to us brain-food fanatics, and this Mac user here has learned great things about the NeXT, things that the magazines don't tell. Just because this is a Mac newsgroup doesn't mean we can't all debate a little Mac vs. its competition. Everyone can learn from the competition. --Adam-- **************************************************************** * "But Windows slows performance, and its interface isn't as * * elegant as the Mac's. It's a little like listening to * * Bruce Willis play the blues: technically correct but * * soulless." * **************************************************************** * CIS: 70721,504 * * America OnLine: AdamFrix * * Internet: Adam.Frix@p2.f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG * **************************************************************** -- Adam Frix via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!200.2!Adam.Frix INET: Adam.Frix@p2.f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Chris.Holt@newcastle.ac.uk (Chris Holt) (11/12/90)
Perhaps there's room for
comp.sys.mac.advocacy
like the amiga people are thinking about?
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Chris.Holt@newcastle.ac.uk Computing Lab, U of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK
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"He either fears his fate too much, or his programming tools are small..."miyakekm@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Keith Miyake) (11/13/90)
In article <1990Nov12.152053.5798@newcastle.ac.uk> Chris.Holt@newcastle.ac.uk (Chris Holt) writes: >Perhaps there's room for > comp.sys.mac.advocacy >like the amiga people are thinking about? How about comp.sys.mac.religion? -Sho -- xxx <<-- or how about not?
macman@wpi.WPI.EDU (Chris Silverberg) (11/13/90)
In article <16562@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> miyakekm@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Keith Miyake) writes: >>Perhaps there's room for >> comp.sys.mac.advocacy >How about comp.sys.mac.religion? How about comp.sys.next.advocacy.... I have a Macintosh.. I read the Mac groups for information about the Mac... not the next. It'd be nice to see these unrelated articles pushed to somewhere else, but alas.... =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Chris Silverberg INTERNET: macman@wpi.wpi.edu Worcester Polytechnic Institute Main Street USA 508-832-7725 (sysop) America Online: Silverberg WMUG BBS 508-832-5844 (sysop) "Ask me about TeleFinder... A Macintosh BBS with a Macintosh interface"
carl@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Carl Baltrunas) (11/15/90)
In article <512@caslon.cs.arizona.edu> jtgorman@cs.arizona.edu (Quaestor) writes: >In article <1990Nov8.201931.16106@athena.mit.edu> bowler@athena.mit.edu (albert smith) writes: >>In article <15460@slice.ooc.uva.nl> sinteur@ooc.uva.nl (John Sinteur) writes: >>>The subject says it all... >>> >>>just joking.. >> >>Shouldn't that be comp.sys.mac.vs.NeXT ? > > I think that this is really a valid idea. Let's get the discussion out of >this group and back to things that *help* Mac users. I think it should be comp.sys.mac.alternatives and we can move the Mac vs NeXT, Mac vs Amiga, Mac vs Unix, Mac vs X, etc.. to the new group. Seriously! I had 460+ articles backlogged after 4 days and the first one was a NeXT related article. I typed "k" to rn and was agast at the list of junked articles. When it was done, there were more than 240 articles with that Subject line. -Carl -- Carl A Baltrunas 408/922-6206|SMTP:carl@doctor.TYMNET.COM,carl@tymix.tymnet.com BT Tymnet (Network Services) |UUCP: ...!{ames,pyramid}!oliveb!tymix!doctor!carl PO Box 49019, MS/C41 |PDP-10 support: 36-bits forever! well, awhile! San Jose, CA 95161-9019 |(insert cute Macintosh quote here)