STENGEL@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robert F. Stengel) (01/08/91)
What's the scuttlebut on Apple's plans for a 68040 Mac?
rapp@sunMg.tellabs.com (Chuck Rapp) (01/09/91)
In article <1991Jan9.030835.23248@wpi.WPI.EDU> macman@wpi.WPI.EDU (Chris Silverberg) writes: >In article <12211@pucc.Princeton.EDU> STENGEL@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes: >> >> What's the scuttlebut on Apple's plans for a 68040 Mac? > >According to the Bible, i mean MacWeek, Apple plans to release a "Tower Mac" >this summer which will be a 68040-based floor standing model. > > Tower Mac specs: > > > 25 MHz 68040 > > Built-in Ethernet > > 5 NuBus slots > > 4 SCSI connectors > > 600-watt power supply > > Base prise less than $10,000 > >The Tower Mac will have room for up to 64 megabytes of memory using 4meg SIMMS. >The price of the IIfx will be cut when the tower is introduced. > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Chris Silverberg INTERNET: macman@wpi.wpi.edu This is a serious piece of computing machinery worthy of a serious operating system. MacOS 6.0.x is fine for my SE/30 but if I had a Tower Mac I would want at least MacOS 7.0 but would probable turn to either A/UX or (the soon to be released) Mach Ten kernel system. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Chuck Rapp BALR Corporation rapp@balr.com | | Oakbrook, IL also: rapp@tellab5.tellabs.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Jim.Matthews@dartmouth.edu (Jim Matthews) (01/09/91)
In article <1991Jan9.030835.23248@wpi.WPI.EDU>, macman@wpi.WPI.EDU (Chris Silverberg) writes: > > According to the Bible, i mean MacWeek, Apple plans to release a "Tower Mac" > this summer which will be a 68040-based floor standing model. > > Tower Mac specs: > ...5 NuBus slots...4 SCSI connectors...600-watt power supply This is in the Apple tradition of wrapping new CPU technology in expensive, ultra-expandable packages. I would like 68040 performance, I don't need 5 NuBus slots or 600 watts of power. I would like an '040 version of the IIsi, with the addition of on-board Ethernet. I'd get my speed and small footprint, Apple would get a machine to compete more directly with 486 boxes and the NeXTstation, and we'd all be happy. The only problem, I think, is that an '040 IIsi would sell more units than Apple can make (at least until Motorola gets up to speed with the '040). Jim Matthews Dartmouth Software Development--
starta@tosh.UUCP (John Starta) (01/09/91)
STENGEL@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Robert F. Stengel) writes: > What's the scuttlebut on Apple's plans for a 68040 Mac? According to the 01.08.91 issue of MacWEEK, Apple's immediate (about as immediate as System 7.0; release this summer) plans for a '040 Mac is the Tower. It is expected to be running at 25-Mhz with built-in Ethernet, 5 NuBus slots, 4 SCSI connectors, 600-watt power supply and have a base price less than $10,000. Using 4-Mbyte SIMMs, it will also have room for 64 Mbytes of RAM. Is it real, or is it Memorex? <grin> John -- John A. Starta Internet: tosh!starta@asuvax.eas.asu.edu Software Visionary UUCP: ncar!noao!asuvax!tosh!starta AOL: AFA John; CompuServe: 71520,3556
meltsner@crd.ge.com (Kenneth J Meltsner) (01/09/91)
-- MacUser also described several IIlc and si upgrade cards from third-party suppliers, including various 68040 and 68030 cards. Prices appear to range from $1500-3000, though. Non-exhaustive summary of '040 products: Supplier Card Price Radius 68040 Nubus with onboard memory $3K Total Systems Integration 68040 SE/30, si $3K Fusion Data Systems 68040 LC $3K IIR Inc 68040 Nubus with memory module slots $4K Should be interesting: the Fusion Data card plugs into the '020 slot on the LC, and is claimed to run 50% faster than a IIfx. =============================================================================== Ken Meltsner | meltsner@crd.ge.com (518) 387-6391 GE Research and Development Center | Fax: (518) 387-7495 P.O. Box 8, Room K1/MB207 | Nothing I say should be attributed Schenectady, NY 12301 | to my employer, and probably vice-versa =================Dep't of Materials Science, ACME Looniversity=================
drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu (David Gutierrez) (01/10/91)
In article <1991Jan9.141123.2343@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Jim.Matthews@dartmouth.edu (Jim Matthews) writes: > > Tower Mac specs: > > ...5 NuBus slots...4 SCSI connectors...600-watt power supply > > This is in the Apple tradition of wrapping new CPU technology in expensive, > ultra-expandable packages. I would like 68040 performance, I don't > need 5 NuBus slots or 600 watts of power. Agreed. I'd be happy to get an '040 upgrade for my IIx. Anyone listening? David Gutierrez drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu "Only fools are positive." - Moe Howard
jcocon@hubcap.clemson.edu (james c oconnor) (01/10/91)
From article <4539@lib.tmc.edu>, by drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu (David Gutierrez): > Agreed. I'd be happy to get an '040 upgrade for my IIx. Anyone listening? > > David Gutierrez Count me in, too. I decided not to even think about upgrading my Mac IIx until I could put an '040 into it. A faster '030 doesn't interest me since my machine is already fast enough for most of my home computing, but with an '040 I can do projects I reserve for departmental machines (besides, there is the neat-o factor, which means that I just want one). Jim
cohill@vtserf.cc.vt.edu (Andrew M. Cohill) (01/10/91)
I've read in the past that the main reason Apple has not released an '040 machine is that Motorola is not able to ship '040 chips in the quantities that Apple would need--thousands per month. NeXt, on the other hand, probably only needs a few hundred a month, and Motorola can satisfy that with early, low-yield fabrication problems. Hence, NeXT seems to be farther ahead than Apple. -- | ...we have to look for routes of power our teachers never | imagined, or were encouraged to avoid. T. Pynchon | |Andy Cohill cohill@vtserf.cc.vt.edu VPI&SU
rk39+@andrew.cmu.edu (Robert Joseph Kuszewski) (01/10/91)
Does anyone know how Apple is going to remap the memory for the '040 machine? As I understand it, Apple is not using the standard Motorola memory mapping, but their own instead. This will be a distinct problem when they try to make '040 machines because Motorola put memory mapping directly on the 68040 chip. Does anyone know what they're doing to resolve this problem? Will the machines still be compatable? Thanks, Bob Executive Member Team Clueless
macman@wpi.WPI.EDU (Chris Silverberg) (01/10/91)
In an article Jim.Matthews@dartmouth.edu (Jim Matthews) writes: (Specs on the "Tower Mac") >This is in the Apple tradition of wrapping new CPU technology in expensive, >ultra-expandable packages. Oh, i wouldn't say that.... there are a LOT of people who want and need the power and expandibility that this 040 Mac will offer... for now, it's definately the right move. Apple can worry about low cost 040 machines later... >I would like 68040 performance, I don't >need 5 NuBus slots or 600 watts of power. I would like an '040 version of >the IIsi, with the addition of on-board Ethernet. Apple is rumored (source: MacWeek) to be working on a 3 slot version of the IIsi now. At the Expo this week, at least 4 companies will be rolling out their 040 cards... perhaps there will be something for the IIsi. - Chris =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Chris Silverberg INTERNET: macman@wpi.wpi.edu Worcester Polytechnic Institute Main Street USA 508-832-7725 (sysop) America Online: Silverberg WMUG BBS 508-832-5844 (sysop) "Ask me about TeleFinder... A Macintosh BBS with a Macintosh interface"
gwangung@milton.u.washington.edu (Roger Tang) (01/10/91)
In article <1991Jan9.182655.393@wpi.WPI.EDU> macman@wpi.WPI.EDU (Chris Silverberg) writes: !In an article Jim.Matthews@dartmouth.edu (Jim Matthews) writes: !(Specs on the "Tower Mac") !!This is in the Apple tradition of wrapping new CPU technology in expensive, !!ultra-expandable packages. ! !Oh, i wouldn't say that.... there are a LOT of people who want and need !the power and expandibility that this 040 Mac will offer... for now, it's !definately the right move. Apple can worry about low cost 040 machines !later... And how much do you wanna bet when they DO offer the low cost '040 there's gonna be howls of anguish about how Apple is offering a "crippled" machine? Anybody remember what happened last November?
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (01/10/91)
In article <15484@crdgw1.crd.ge.com> meltsner@crd.ge.com (Kenneth J Meltsner) writes:
MacUser also described several IIlc and si upgrade cards from third-party
suppliers, including various 68040 and 68030 cards. Prices appear to range
from $1500-3000, though.
Non-exhaustive summary of '040 products:
Supplier Card Price
Radius 68040 Nubus with onboard memory $3K
Total Systems Integration 68040 SE/30, si $3K
Fusion Data Systems 68040 LC $3K
IIR Inc 68040 Nubus with memory module slots $4K
Should be interesting: the Fusion Data card plugs into the '020 slot on the
LC, and is claimed to run 50% faster than a IIfx.
NeXT Station
10 mip DSP
25MHz 68040
92 dpi, 17", 2 bit greyscale monitor
105 MB hard drive
2.88MB floppy drive
8MB RAM
Mathematica
WriteNow
Display Postscript
Unix
.
.
.
GUI and mouse
All for $3250 at a University near you, or $4995 at a store near
you(actually you might have to search far and wide).
-Mike
PS. Please no flames. NeXT vs. Mac has already been debated. We can
fight again when more software has been release for the NeXT(.i.e.
when the "yeah, but I can buy software until I turn blue" argument is
toast.)torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan J Torrie) (01/10/91)
drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu (David Gutierrez) writes: >> This is in the Apple tradition of wrapping new CPU technology in >expensive, >> ultra-expandable packages. I would like 68040 performance, I don't >> need 5 NuBus slots or 600 watts of power. >Agreed. I'd be happy to get an '040 upgrade for my IIx. Anyone listening? I'd be happy to get an '040 upgrade for my IIci... I think Apple should release TWO 68040 machines... one the big 600 watt, SCSI demon server, and a IIcx/ci type package for the desktop. This would correspond well with IBM's PS/2 90 and PS/2 70 desktop. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu Murphy's Law of Intelism: Just when you thought Intel had done everything possible to pervert the course of computer architecture, they bring out the 860
dlt@csunb.csun.edu (David Thompson) (01/11/91)
Just noticed an ad in MacWeek (1/8/91) for 68030/68040 cpu cards for the MacLC and CI. Both are 50MHz. Price on the '030 is $1495. No price listed for the '040. The '040 "can crunch through data up to _six_ times faster than a IIfx." The company is Venture Technologies (803) 951-3600. I wonder if the rest of the machine (i.e. memory) can keep up it? -- David Thompson internet: dlt@csunb.csun.edu Computer Center Cal State University, Northridge phone: (818) 885-2790 18111 Nordhoff Street, Northridge, CA 91330
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan J Torrie) (01/11/91)
MUSJJH@lure.latrobe.edu.au writes: >> I'd be happy to get an '040 upgrade for my IIci... I think Apple should >> release TWO 68040 machines... one the big 600 watt, SCSI demon server, and >> a IIcx/ci type package for the desktop. >> >For heaven's sake! Don't let on to Apple about what we want...we'll >never get it! Oh, I don't know. I think Apple did a pretty good job of listening to what users wanted last year (i.e. LOW COST MACS). [Please, no flames about how the Classic, LC and si are underpowered... for the general populace, they're great. USENET readers are not a typical PC market] -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "She's got a tongue like an electric eel, and she likes the taste of a man's tonsils!" - Rik Flashheart
MUSJJH@lure.latrobe.edu.au (01/11/91)
In article <1991Jan10.014334.4892@Neon.Stanford.EDU>, torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan J Torrie) writes: > drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu (David Gutierrez) writes: > >>Agreed. I'd be happy to get an '040 upgrade for my IIx. Anyone listening? > > I'd be happy to get an '040 upgrade for my IIci... I think Apple should > release TWO 68040 machines... one the big 600 watt, SCSI demon server, and > a IIcx/ci type package for the desktop. > For heaven's sake! Don't let on to Apple about what we want...we'll never get it! Jason La Trobe Uni, Melbourne, Oz
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) (01/11/91)
As quoted from <4539@lib.tmc.edu> by drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu (David Gutierrez):
+---------------
| Agreed. I'd be happy to get an '040 upgrade for my IIx. Anyone listening?
+---------------
I'll hold out for the SE/40. (Which will undoubtedly come out just as I get my
SE upgraded to an SE/30... are the current batch of FDHDs still problematic?)
++Brandon
--
Me: Brandon S. Allbery VHF/UHF: KB8JRR on 220, 2m, 440
Internet: allbery@NCoast.ORG Packet: KB8JRR @ WA8BXN
America OnLine: KB8JRR AMPR: KB8JRR.AmPR.ORG [44.70.4.88]
uunet!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery Delphi: ALLBERYlong@mcntsh.enet.dec.com (Rich Long) (01/12/91)
Well, since Daystar Digital already has faster 68030 cards for the IIc*
series, I would not be surprised to see them pop out a 68040 card before much
longer.
The problem, though, is whether disk and memory can keep up in any coherent
fashion. They, after all, are the ultimate limiting factor, I would think.
Rich
Richard C. Long * long@mcntsh.enet.dec.com
* ...!decwrl!mcntsh.enet.dec.com!long
* long%mcntsh.dec@decwrl.enet.dec.com uzun@pnet01.cts.com (Roger Uzun) (01/12/91)
[]
There is currently NO 50 Mhz 68040 available at any price.
Any such card, to be reliable, will have to wait for a 50 Mhz part.
The 33 Mhz 68040 should be shipping by 1992, so you guess when
a 50 Mhz part will be available.
Of course a 25 Mhz 68040 will perform better than a 50 Mhz 030,
maybe they are eluding to that, they certainly will not be
shipping any 50 Mhz 040 boards soon!
-Roger
UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd ucsd nosc}!crash!pnet01!uzun
ARPA: crash!pnet01!uzun@nosc.mil
INET: uzun@pnet01.cts.comtorrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan J Torrie) (01/12/91)
long@mcntsh.enet.dec.com (Rich Long) writes: > Well, since Daystar Digital already has faster 68030 cards for the IIc* > series, I would not be surprised to see them pop out a 68040 card before much > longer. I asked a Daystar Digital rep at the MacWorld Expo about their plans for an 040 board. He said that rather than rushing out with a board, they would prefer to wait and see what the competition had to offer [e.g. the Fusion 040 board, Radius, IIR etc - all on show at the Expo by the way], before they brought one out. He suggested August MacWorld would be their launching date. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu Today's maxim: All socialists are failed capitalists
n67786@lehtori.tut.fi (Nieminen Tero) (01/13/91)
In article <6860@crash.cts.com> uzun@pnet01.cts.com (Roger Uzun) writes:
There is currently NO 50 Mhz 68040 available at any price.
Any such card, to be reliable, will have to wait for a 50 Mhz part.
The 33 Mhz 68040 should be shipping by 1992, so you guess when
a 50 Mhz part will be available.
The 50 MHz 68040 is certainly available, since the first ever delivered
computer using the Motorola 68040 was parallel super computer that was
sold to England, and it had 25 68040 cpus. This computer was delivered
much earlier than the even the first 040 NextStations. I wouldn't bet on
the number of available chips though.
Of course a 25 Mhz 68040 will perform better than a 50 Mhz 030,
maybe they are eluding to that, they certainly will not be
shipping any 50 Mhz 040 boards soon!
-Roger
--
Tero Nieminen Tampere University of Technology
n67786@cc.tut.fi Tampere, Finland, Europepierce@radius.com (Pierce T. Wetter III) (01/21/91)
> I asked a Daystar Digital rep at the MacWorld Expo about their plans >for an 040 board. He said that rather than rushing out with a board, >they would prefer to wait and see what the competition had to offer >[e.g. the Fusion 040 board, Radius, IIR etc - all on show at the Expo >by the way], before they brought one out. > He suggested August MacWorld would be their launching date. I heard a rumor that the only person at DayStar who could do the '040 left to join the company that spunoff from DayStar. (You know, the one with the 040 board). Pierce -- My postings are my opinions, and my opinions are my own not that of my employer. You can get me at radius!pierce@apple.com. (Wha'ja want? Some cute signature file? Hah! I have real work to do.
hhwong@aludra.usc.edu (Henry Hwong) (01/21/91)
In article <1991Jan20.185644.1245@cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) writes: > >While people may be drooling over a 25Mhz 68040 chip, remember that >the Mac II series has a 10Mhz Nubus anchor around its neck. This >means that your Mac IIxx (whatever) cannot be accelerated without >spending gobs of money on a monster cache, and nomatter what, your >screen updates will always display like molasses (unless you buy a >video accelerator too). Many of these 040 accelerators go through either a processor direct slot or the IIci cache connector, so the NuBus bottleneck is not a problem here. I don't think Apple places the memory on as a NuBus either (unlike IBM, who puts their memory circuitry on the peripheral bus), so when Apple does design a 040 machine, Nubus doesn't matter here either. >That is one good reason why Emany people have opted to quit the >macintosh and buy NeXT machines (with 20Mhz Nubus). Wow! Are there a lot of people who really trash their Mac because of the NuBus speed? Really. I don't even have any cards! I think there is more to a Mac than NuBus. -Henry (hhwong@usc.edu)
anders@verity.com (Anders Wallgren) (01/21/91)
In article <1991Jan20.185644.1245@cs.uiuc.edu>, gillies@cs (Don Gillies) writes: > >While people may be drooling over a 25Mhz 68040 chip, remember that >the Mac II series has a 10Mhz Nubus anchor around its neck. This >means that your Mac IIxx (whatever) cannot be accelerated without >spending gobs of money on a monster cache, and nomatter what, your >screen updates will always display like molasses (unless you buy a >video accelerator too). > Future versions of the Macintoshes will have ROM upgrades (1MB) available that boost the NuBus speed up to the 20Mhz NuBus '90 speeds. This according to MacWeek's report on the forthcoming '040 mac tower. anders
ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) (01/23/91)
On 20-Jan-91 in Re: 68040 for the Mac? user Henry Hwong@aludra.usc.e writes: >>While people may be drooling over a 25Mhz 68040 chip, remember that >>the Mac II series has a 10Mhz Nubus anchor around its neck. This >>means that your Mac IIxx (whatever) cannot be accelerated without >>spending gobs of money on a monster cache, and nomatter what, your >>screen updates will always display like molasses (unless you buy a >>video accelerator too). > >Many of these 040 accelerators go through either a processor direct slot or >the IIci cache connector, so the NuBus bottleneck is not a problem here. > >I don't think Apple places the memory on as a NuBus either (unlike IBM, >who puts their memory circuitry on the peripheral bus), so when Apple does >design a 040 machine, Nubus doesn't matter here either. > >>That is one good reason why Emany people have opted to quit the >>macintosh and buy NeXT machines (with 20Mhz Nubus). > >Wow! Are there a lot of people who really trash their Mac because of the >NuBus speed? Really. I don't even have any cards! I think there is more >to a Mac than NuBus. Yes, there is much more to a mac than NuBus. Like Singletasking, slow video which goes through slow NuBus in most Macs, slow CPUs, slow FPUs, slow SCSI, wimpy file protection, high prices, and an operating system that is in vaporware neary as long as NeXT existed. That is why I KNOW OF about 20 former Mac and PC student users that are switching to NeXT. The people that don't switch are the ones who have never TOUCHED a NeXT or are so rabid with pride in their Mac that they wouldn't switch to a HAL-9000 costing $600
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (01/23/91)
In article <0bb_V1O00Uh_E3=Bow@andrew.cmu.edu> ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) writes: >Yes, there is much more to a mac than NuBus. Like Singletasking, slow >video which goes through slow NuBus in most Macs, slow CPUs, slow FPUs, >slow SCSI, wimpy file protection, high prices, and an operating system >that is in vaporware neary as long as NeXT existed. That is why I KNOW >OF about 20 former Mac and PC student users that are switching to NeXT. "most Macs"? Mac 128, Mac 512, Mac 512ke, Mac Plus, Mac SE, Mac Classic, Mac Portable, Mac SE/30, Mac II, Mac LC, Mac IIx, Mac IIcx, Mac IIsi, Mac IIci, Mac IIfx. In sheer numbers the compacts outnumber the NuBus machines. In number of models the compacts and onboard video machines outnumber the NuBus video models. Either way you are WRONG WRONG WRONG. I wouldn't mind it if you kept your comments to corrections about NeXT facts and requests for GENERAL recommendations on computers, but Noooooo, you have to waste MY bandwidth with your horse manure. It is pathetic. >The people that don't switch are the ones who have never TOUCHED a NeXT >or are so rabid with pride in their Mac that they wouldn't switch to a >HAL-9000 costing $600 I've seen a NeXT. It's no HAL-9000. It doesn't cost $600. You give me a NeXT that will run ALL my current software and is upgradeable to color, and I will give you my SE/30 and $600. Otherwise, keep to topics you know.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (01/23/91)
In article <42973@ut-emx.uucp> awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes: In article <0bb_V1O00Uh_E3=Bow@andrew.cmu.edu> ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) writes: >The people that don't switch are the ones who have never TOUCHED a NeXT >or are so rabid with pride in their Mac that they wouldn't switch to a >HAL-9000 costing $600 I've seen a NeXT. It's no HAL-9000. It doesn't cost $600. You give me a NeXT that will run ALL my current software and is upgradeable to color, and I will give you my SE/30 and $600. Otherwise, keep to topics you know. Have you seen an 68040 NeXT? If not, then you haven't seen a NeXT. Your attitude is completely ignorant. "No, I won't buy a Mac, until it runs ALL of my Apple II software." Your requirements for purchasing a NeXT are quite rigid. What Mac do you own? How important is color to your work? The grey-scale Mac is a far cry from a 9", 72 dpi SE screen. Can anyone give me the cost of an SE/30 18 months ago? It would be interesting to see how far the industry has come. If you subtract the cost of the display, you will find that you are paying very little for all of that horsepower. -Mike
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (01/23/91)
In article <5$7Glmf4@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >Have you seen an 68040 NeXT? If not, then you haven't seen a NeXT. Huh? Explain that again? Other than speed, what has changed about the new NeXT machines? >Your attitude is completely ignorant. "No, I won't buy a Mac, until No it isn't. Like I said, I've tried the NeXT and watched demos. If those experiences won't convince me, all the misinformation several NeXT supporters have spread here, in the IBM, and the Amiga forums (at least) won't do diddly squat. >it runs ALL of my Apple II software." Your requirements for And you are ignorant when you criticize people for valuing not only there own investment both of money and of time, but the installed base, the technical support available through many venues, and the software base. >purchasing a NeXT are quite rigid. What Mac do you own? How >important is color to your work? The grey-scale Mac is a far cry from Again, another bad assumption. My computer (an SE/30 by the way) is not JUST for work. However, in much of the work I do, the Mac's ability to emulate an Apple II, a PC AT, and run Unix all come in handy. >a 9", 72 dpi SE screen. Can anyone give me the cost of an SE/30 18 Thanks, but I've used a 9" 72 dpi screen for six years. I don't think you have that much to tell me about what I can do on it. I've also used large screens. I'm happy knowing I can add, AT MY CHOICE, various screens from 12" to 21+". >months ago? It would be interesting to see how far the industry has >come. If you subtract the cost of the display, you will find that you >are paying very little for all of that horsepower. And I could be paying even less if I didn't have to buy Ethernet and the DSP. This argument is old. You lose nothing by spending your time trying to sell the NeXT except those people who plop your names and the word NeXT into their kill files who MIGHT have been interested in looking at the NeXT at some point.
hhwong@aludra.usc.edu (Henry Hwong) (01/23/91)
In article <5$7Glmf4@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >Have you seen an 68040 NeXT? If not, then you haven't seen a NeXT. >Your attitude is completely ignorant. "No, I won't buy a Mac, until >it runs ALL of my Apple II software." Your requirements for >purchasing a NeXT are quite rigid. What Mac do you own? How >important is color to your work? The grey-scale Mac is a far cry from >a 9", 72 dpi SE screen. Can anyone give me the cost of an SE/30 18 >months ago? It would be interesting to see how far the industry has >come. If you subtract the cost of the display, you will find that you >are paying very little for all of that horsepower. > >-Mike With all the ruckus about the NeXT and Macs (again), I think you all are wrong. I like my VIC-20! :-) Seriously, as David Ahl has said, "if it doesn't have software, it might as well be a boatanchor." (or something very close to that). I call this discussion moot until NeXT gets its much heralded software, and then I'll think about it. This discussion is getting nowhere, because both sides are so damn emotional about it, not to mention the positions are immovable. We are just wasting bandwidth with stuff we already threw at each other not so long ago. I like my mac. It does everything I want it to. Now tell me, why should I change right now? Uh oh, I can see another thread developing! :-) -Henry (hhwong@usc.edu)
krk@cs.purdue.EDU (Kevin Kuehl) (01/23/91)
In article <14332@chaph.usc.edu> hhwong@aludra.usc.edu (Henry Hwong) writes:
as well be a boatanchor." (or something very close to that). I call this
discussion moot until NeXT gets its much heralded software, and then I'll
think about it.
I can understand why they are trying to *force* the rest of us to buy
a NeXT. Until NeXT gets a significant user base, they won't get the
wonderous software. They try to get us to buy machines that may or
may not suit our machines so that the vaporware may materialize.
I like my mac. It does everything I want it to. Now tell me, why should
I change right now? Uh oh, I can see another thread developing! :-)
I considered buying a NeXT. But I didn't know what I would do with
the DSP, Ethernet, etc. at home. All I was getting was a 17 MIPs
monochrome UNIX machine. If I want that, I can come into my office.
Oh wait, no I can't. I have a color workstation in my office. :-)
--
Kevin Kuehl
krk@cs.purdue.edu
kuehlkr@mentor.cc.purude.eduandyb@tardis.wimsey.bc.ca (Andy Babinszki) (01/24/91)
> Blah, Blah Blah ...
#define SOAPBOX /* I like that, though I borrowed it from someone else */
Lots of talk about Mac vs NeXT. On the NeXT: Improv is really impresive, WordPerfect
has a nice GUI. But who is going to support the changeover to NeXT? In a company
of >5000 employees, it's left to our dept to support and train everyone. Yet another
platform to support? What about connectivity; will it talk to IBM mainframes? Will
it talk to DEC VAXen? What about DOS platforms? Macs? We've got all of the above.
NeXT looks good, but unless it can become part of a multivendor environment, it is
simply an interesting curiosity. Furthermore, if it doesn't deliver a _SIGNIFICANT_
improvement over existing platforms, it won't merrit the cost of training and support.
two bit's worth.
andyb.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Babinszki - andyb@tardis.wimsey.bc.cawirehead@oxy.edu (David J. Harr) (01/24/91)
GOOD LORD! Can't you people SHUT UP! I'm tired of hearing about how fabulous the (NeXT, Mac, Amiga, TRS-80, insert favorite computer here) is and how terrible the (NeXT, Mac, Amiga, TRS-80, insert most detested computer here) is and how all Right Thinking People (tm) are switching from the latter to the former. The fact of the matter is the NeXT is a fine machine and a wonderful engineering achievement. I would have one if I had the money. One day maybe I will. The Mac IIfx is also a fine achievement, and I would have one if I had the money. I will probably get the IIfx before the color NextStation. However, the title of the newsgroup is comp.sys.MAC.misc. So, all of you please, just give it a rest, OK? "Happiness is being famous for your financial ability to indulge in every kind of excess." --Calvin wirehead@oxy.edu
tonyg@batserver.cs.uq.oz.au (Tony Gedge) (01/24/91)
In <0bb_V1O00Uh_E3=Bow@andrew.cmu.edu> ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) writes: [ blah blah blah ] >The people that don't switch are the ones who have never TOUCHED a NeXT >or are so rabid with pride in their Mac that they wouldn't switch to a >HAL-9000 costing $600 ... or those who: 1) Can't get a NeXT (I've never seen one in Australia) 2) Can't get a NeXT to do what they want to do (Do Finale and Music Publisher run on a NeXT?) Sure... Macintoshes have heaps of deficiencies... lack of DMA (except on IIfx) strange floppy format (unless you get a SuperDrive)... etc etc. BUT At least I can get my work done on a Macintosh, which I probably could not do on a NeXT. (Mind you... if someone happens to lend me a NeXT... I wouldn't say no :-) Tony Gedge. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Computer Science Department, | tonyg@batserver.cs.uq.oz.au | | University of Queensland, Australia.| "cc stands for Cryptic Crossword" | -------------------------------------------------------------------------
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (01/24/91)
In article <0bb_V1O00Uh_E3=Bow@andrew.cmu.edu> ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) writes: > >Yes, there is much more to a mac than NuBus. Like Singletasking, slow >video which goes through slow NuBus in most Macs, slow CPUs, slow FPUs, >slow SCSI, wimpy file protection, high prices, and an operating system >that is in vaporware neary as long as NeXT existed. That is why I KNOW >OF about 20 former Mac and PC student users that are switching to NeXT. > >The people that don't switch are the ones who have never TOUCHED a NeXT >or are so rabid with pride in their Mac that they wouldn't switch to a >HAL-9000 costing $600 Well, I'll admit that I wouldn't switch to a HAL 9000 if you paid me (you DID see what HAL did in the movie, right), but I'm certainly not rabid with pride-- I've been known to use and like UNIX machines (and <whispered> VMS machines). I've used NeXT, and I like the mac better, perhaps because I am not so blinded with pride with my machine that I cannot see the problems such as extremely expensive color, the Display Postscript bottleneck, and a company run by a man whose ability to run successful businesses (as opposed to making them that way) is very much in doubt. -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) (01/24/91)
As quoted from <5$7Glmf4@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): +--------------- | Your attitude is completely ignorant. "No, I won't buy a Mac, until | it runs ALL of my Apple II software." Your requirements for | purchasing a NeXT are quite rigid. What Mac do you own? How +--------------- You then believe that being able to access one's current data --- not to mention doing so without having to learn a new program --- is a worthless ability? Gee, thanks. I wonder how many NeXTs would be sold if Steve Jobs had that attitude? +--------------- | important is color to your work? The grey-scale Mac is a far cry from | a 9", 72 dpi SE screen. Can anyone give me the cost of an SE/30 18 +--------------- How inportant is color to me? NOT AT ALL. (Need I make that clearer?) I'm not even sure that I need grayscale. Sorry, but there are those of us who have SEs and are scraping to find the money to upgrade to SE/30s. If you can't show us a NeXT that does at least as much as the SE/30 for under $1500, you're wasting your time. And yes, this is a "rigid" requirement, and shouting at us about our "rigid" requirements won't make an expensive new machine cheaper than an upgrade. Mac prices have always been a sore point with me. But *this* kind of callous attitude about "rigid" requirements because we have to do stupid things like being able to access our existing data, or be able to *afford* things, is guaranteed to make me blow a gasket. ++Brandon -- Me: Brandon S. Allbery VHF/UHF: KB8JRR on 220, 2m, 440 Internet: allbery@NCoast.ORG Packet: KB8JRR @ WA8BXN America OnLine: KB8JRR AMPR: KB8JRR.AmPR.ORG [44.70.4.88] uunet!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery Delphi: ALLBERY
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (01/24/91)
In article <6932@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au> tonyg@batserver.cs.uq.oz.au writes: >In <0bb_V1O00Uh_E3=Bow@andrew.cmu.edu> ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) writes: >Sure... Macintoshes have heaps of deficiencies... lack of DMA (except on IIfx) >strange floppy format (unless you get a SuperDrive)... etc etc. Strange? What is strange about the 800K floppy format? Are you defining strange as "Not compatible with the IBM-PC"? You want strange, take a look at those 880K disks the mac was originally scheduled to get. -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
cfj@isc.intel.com (Charlie Johnson) (01/25/91)
People seem to forget that there are many reasons for buying a particular computer and only a few of those reasons are purely technical. I think that some of the NeXT advocates are falling into the same trap as some of the Amiga advocates have. I realize there a lot of areas where technically the Amiga or the NeXT are better (multitasks, real Unix, etc.). That doesn't mean that I'm going sell my SE/30 and run out and buy one. There are considerations such as software & hardware investment. What I actually use my Mac for and would any of these features which may be lacking on the Mac really make any difference. Another important reason is that my wife uses a Mac at work and she wanted to be able to work at home. Everything is not as black and white as some people try to make it. -- Charles Johnson Intel Corporation, Supercomputer Systems Division 15201 NW Greenbrier Pkwy Beaverton, OR 97006 phone: (503)629-7605 email: cfj@isc.intel.com
man@cs.brown.edu (Mark H. Nodine) (01/25/91)
In article <42973@ut-emx.uucp>, awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes: |> "most Macs"? Mac 128, Mac 512, Mac 512ke, Mac Plus, Mac SE, Mac Classic, |> Mac Portable, Mac SE/30, Mac II, Mac LC, Mac IIx, Mac IIcx, Mac IIsi, Mac IIci, |> Mac IIfx. In sheer numbers the compacts outnumber the NuBus machines. You also left out the Mac XL (Lisa). --Mark
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (01/25/91)
In article <1991Jan24.005516.8300@NCoast.ORG> allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) writes: You then believe that being able to access one's current data --- not to mention doing so without having to learn a new program --- is a worthless ability? Gee, thanks. I wonder how many NeXTs would be sold if Steve Jobs had that attitude? Do you have a high density 3 1/2" drive, or access to one? NeXT's ,out of the box, do read/write IBM disks. Just insert the disk into the drive. There is third-party software that allows them to read/write the Mac format. It is pricey, though. +--------------- | important is color to your work? The grey-scale Mac is a far cry from | a 9", 72 dpi SE screen. Can anyone give me the cost of an SE/30 18 +--------------- How inportant is color to me? NOT AT ALL. (Need I make that clearer?) I'm not even sure that I need grayscale. Sorry, but there are those of us who have SEs and are scraping to find the money to upgrade to SE/30s. If you can't show us a NeXT that does at least as much as the SE/30 for under $1500, you're wasting your time. And yes, this is a "rigid" requirement, and shouting at us about our "rigid" requirements won't make an expensive new machine cheaper than an upgrade. The NeXT does have a problem in that they don't have a "low-end" machine. Can you really buy an SE/30 for under $1500? That's not too bad. Is that educational price? The NeXT is a bargain if you consider that for twice as much you are getting a lot more than twice the machine. The NeXT Station(040, DSP, 8Megs of RAM, 2.88MB floppy, 105MB hard-drive) only costs around $2500(educational). The $700 monitor is the costly part of the machine. Can one buy a 13" high resolution 94 dpi, megapixel display? You could spend twice as much now and skip the upgrade to Apple's 040 SE/30 in two years and enjoy the power now :-). Mac prices have always been a sore point with me. But *this* kind of callous attitude about "rigid" requirements because we have to do stupid things like being able to access our existing data, or be able to *afford* things, is guaranteed to make me blow a gasket. I didn't realize that you had this problem. I live in a University environment where it's easy to get data from one machine to another. The NeXT floppy should do the trick for most people. Do you see the lack of direct Mac compatibality as a major problem? Perhaps NeXT's should license the third-party solution and ship it with their machines. -Mike
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (01/25/91)
In article <1109@intelisc.isc.intel.com> cfj@isc.intel.com (Charlie Johnson) writes:
People seem to forget that there are many reasons for buying a particular
computer and only a few of those reasons are purely technical. I think that
some of the NeXT advocates are falling into the same trap as some of the
Amiga advocates have. I realize there a lot of areas where technically the
Amiga or the NeXT are better (multitasks, real Unix, etc.). That doesn't
mean that I'm going sell my SE/30 and run out and buy one. There are
considerations such as software & hardware investment. What I actually
use my Mac for and would any of these features which may be lacking on
the Mac really make any difference. Another important reason is that
my wife uses a Mac at work and she wanted to be able to work at home.
Everything is not as black and white as some people try to make it.
Of course, we(I) realize that some people are stuck using a particular
machine for software reasons. However, the software problem is slowly
being solved. Word Perfect and Lotus Improv for the NeXT will allow
most of the IBM world to take their work home with them. Both of
these companies will soon be shipping new products for the Macintosh.
At least Word Perfect will be, and this time it should be a "real" Mac
product. Users of Adobe Illustrator and Quark XPress will soon be
able to do their work on a NeXT. FrameMaker already runs on both
machines. And of course Wingz runs on many platforms. It's all in
how you choose your software. Choose wisely, and you will be able to
jump ship when Apple ships their NeXT killer, assuming it's time to
upgrade. A 15 mip personal computer will probably still be useful in
several years.
-Mikesmithw@hamblin.math.byu.edu (Dr. William V. Smith) (01/26/91)
In <83414@unix.cis.pitt.edu> macman@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Dennis H Lippert) write: >I have had a chance to spend a bit of time with a NeXT, and frankly find it to >be too much of a "multi-media blitz" in terms of the interface. I feel there >is no need for the 3-D windows, buttons, etc. The 68040 would probably run >even faster with a simpler interface (if you tell me to run unix on it, I'll >scream). I rather like my NeXTy interface, but have to admit I do use the terminal window more as time has gone by. Never-the-less, I think they did an excellent job with it. I (and my family) use a Mac at home and like it too. I bought (the school that is) a NeXT at work because my Mac wouldn't do the heavy stuff I needed there. >Here at the U. of Pitt, the educational price for the '040 flat NeXT is within >a couple hundred dollars of the baseline Mac IIsi. >(The IIsi is color, 40mb HD,whereas the NeXT is greyscale,\ > 80mb HD). I believe the minimal config for the disk is 105 MB, about 26 MB of that is free for file expansion. > But we were warned (my friend was the >one actually interested... I just got up the money for my Classic) by the >saleperson/user consultant that the 80mb drive will fool you as you can't get >much software on it... "It probably won't hold the stuff you'll usually run.", >and advised us to get a bigger drive. This is good advise. For any serious computing, you need the at least the 200 MB version on the NeXTstation, unless you want to go back to the floppy-swap times. But hard drives ARE a significant expense for most students. >Then there are the other things... >I have five years worth of Mac files... and software to go with them. >Who else owns a NeXT? You apparently have just the dealer (and the net!) to >talk to, as our salesperson (the NeXT specialist at the "Faculty Tech Center") >said that approximately 8 people on the Pitt campus have NeXTs (out of 30,000). >I personally know of 8 friends or more in the university community who have >Macs... from 512-upgrade-to-plus to a IIci. And literally dozens who own PCs. Certainly the NeXT user base is small compared to the two groups you mention. You mention better reasons for sticking with a Mac though- satisfaction with the machine in the past, and lots of accumulated software. Not really a smart move to discard that unless you need a big leap in performance and capability. I would guess the choice might be more difficult (between a NeXTstation and a Mac of similar type) for a person who is just moving into the gui market. It really depends on what you need your machine to do right NOW. If you need a good word processor, a nice game platform, an excellent variety of fairly low cost multipurpose software and well established gui, the Mac is the way to go. If you need a unix machine with the usual workstation capability and a gui which is quite good too (maybe you're a potential user of Mathematica in a big way [a notorious VM user]) the NeXTstation is certainly a candidate. The software will come, but it is workstation pricing for a lot of it. Out of the question for most students [and unreasonable anyway for most of it- in my opinion of course- I don't single out NeXT software here- the workstation software market is one of pretty gross price inflation for the most part- yes I know something about the reasons, etc.]. >Not only do you have to *buy* all new software with your new machine, you also >have to wait for someone to *produce* it. The NeXTstation does come bundled with some reasonable software; this is a calculated selling point. However, while there is a fair amount of third party software now, most of it is NOT directed to the student market (and budget),as stated above. I think this will open up somewhat but I doubt it will ever compete with the Mac Classic market which is where the bulk of Mac users are. I really think Apple should direct more of its corporate brains to this market than they have. The Mac is made for it and there is a great deal of continuing money to be made there with reasonable pricing policies. So much for the soapbox. Anyway: The new low-end Macs are fine machines. If you are in the market for an LC, you're probably not in the market for a NeXTstation. Good luck. -- __________________Prof. William V. Smith____________________ EMail: smithw@hamblin.math.byu.edu or uunet!hamblin.math.byu.edu!smithw SMail: Math Dept. -- 314 TMCB; BYU; Provo, UT 84602 (USA) NeXTmail: smithw@mathnx.math.byu.edu Phone: +1 801 378 2061 FAX: +1 801 378 2800
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) (01/26/91)
As quoted from <a?5Gk-_5@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): +--------------- | In article <1991Jan24.005516.8300@NCoast.ORG> allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) writes: | Sorry, but there are those of us who have SEs and are scraping to find the | money to upgrade to SE/30s. If you can't show us a NeXT that does at least as | much as the SE/30 for under $1500, you're wasting your time. And yes, this is | | machine. Can you really buy an SE/30 for under $1500? That's not too +--------------- I can turn my SE into an SE/30 for something like $1500. For $600 I can get a Marathon 030 and have similar (although not identical) results. You, however, advocate my throwing all this out and starting over with an expen$ive machine. +--------------- | the machine. The NeXT Station(040, DSP, 8Megs of RAM, 2.88MB floppy, | 105MB hard-drive) only costs around $2500(educational). The $700 +--------------- "Educational". Welcome to the real world, chum --- I post from home, I work in a Unix business environment. I don't *get* educational pricing, and I don't get educational solutions to problems. +--------------- | I didn't realize that you had this problem. I live in a University | environment where it's easy to get data from one machine to another. +--------------- In my home environment, I have: * IBM-compatible laptop * XT-clone with a 386 card * Xenix/386 box (currently on loan, will be replaced by a permanent 386 UNIX box) * Mac SE Getting data between *any* of them is non-trivial, except that the XT-clone's 360K disks can be read by the Xenix box (but it doesn't work the other way around, 1.2MB floppy drives don't do a good job of writing 360K disks and the XT clone is rather particular about disks anyway). No Ethernet. (No slots available in the XT or the laptop, so it wouldn't help anyway.) Not enough serial ports to network *that* way --- and any more serial ports on the XT would be absorbed for another purpose (packet) anyway. And, unlike most people, I don't run many "standard" applications --- I have MacWrite II and FullWrite Pro for word processing, some comm programs, and that's about it. The other programs I use on the Mac are mostly hamware; the XT-clone runs NOS continuously; the laptop generally runs either NOS or a comm program; the Xenix box runs all sorts of custom software I've written for it. Which brings up another point: one NeXT to replace all of this sounds tempting, but it also sounds (on further consideration) to be overkill. (Although the possibility of implementing a high-speed modem using the 56001 is tempting....) An SE/30 would be nice (especially if I could attach more serial ports to it), and is *not* overkill --- I see myself moving to a Unix box for the NOS(-compatible) stuff and the Mac for everything else, and selling or junking the XT and selling the laptop. Even ignoring the rest of the machines and their purposes, though: this is a home environment. A NeXT does little for it; why do you think Apple has the SE/30 as well as all the big Nubus machines? Because not everyone needs a big do-everything computer, just a *small* fast machine. I want the SE/30 upgrade for the speed and the ability to stuff more than 4MB of memory in it, but I don't need a 32MB departmental server. ++Brandon -- Me: Brandon S. Allbery VHF/UHF: KB8JRR on 220, 2m, 440 Internet: allbery@NCoast.ORG Packet: KB8JRR @ WA8BXN America OnLine: KB8JRR AMPR: KB8JRR.AmPR.ORG [44.70.4.88] uunet!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery Delphi: ALLBERY
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (01/26/91)
In article <83414@unix.cis.pitt.edu> macman@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Dennis H Lippert) writes:
I have had a chance to spend a bit of time with a NeXT, and frankly find it to
be too much of a "multi-media blitz" in terms of the interface. I feel there
is no need for the 3-D windows, buttons, etc. The 68040 would probably run
even faster with a simpler interface (if you tell me to run unix on it, I'll
scream).
You had better get use to it, System 7.0 and Windows 3.0 give you the
same thing.
Here at the U. of Pitt, the educational price for the '040 flat NeXT is within
a couple hundred dollars of the baseline Mac IIsi. (The IIsi is color, 40mb HD,whereas the NeXT is greyscale, 80mb HD). But we were warned (my friend was the
one actually interested... I just got up the money for my Classic) by the
saleperson/user consultant that the 80mb drive will fool you as you can't get
much software on it... "It probably won't hold the stuff you'll usually run.",
and advised us to get a bigger drive.
I think that you have 25MB-30MB free on a 105MB slab. Some stuff like
the Improv Demo can be deleted after you see it once. There is no
80MB NeXT. Was the guy selling the Mac working for Apple :-)? Also,
don't forget that you do get a floppy drive with the machine.
Then there are the other things...
I have five years worth of Mac files... and software to go with them.
Who else owns a NeXT? You apparently have just the dealer (and the net!) to
talk to, as our salesperson (the NeXT specialist at the "Faculty Tech Center")
said that approximately 8 people on the Pitt campus have NeXTs (out of 30,000).
I personally know of 8 friends or more in the university community who have
Macs... from 512-upgrade-to-plus to a IIci. And literally dozens who own PCs.
You should have some degree of computer literacy or know someone that
does before you buy a NeXT. If not then you should buy the Mac. It
is more turnkey. Getting the Mac files to the NeXT shouldn't be too
much trouble. As for your software investment you always have to
consider that. NeXT does make it enticing though. You get WriteNow
and Mathematica free, and Improv is still free if you purchase a NeXT
before March 31.
Not only do you have to *buy* all new software with your new machine, you also
have to wait for someone to *produce* it.
What kind of software do you need that isn't available for the NeXT?
I've heard people say things like "What if I want to draw cartoons? I
can get software to do it on the Mac?" Listening to Mac owners, it's
amazing that Apple survived selling Macintoshes. It took a year after
the Mac was first introduced before another word processor was
available for it besides MacWrite. Apple has only captured 9% of the
market. From the sounds of most people in this newsgroup, you should
own IBM's. It's a safer choice, right?
All in all, I think that in a corporate design setting, the NeXT could make a
fairly big dent (the same area where SUNs excel). But I just can't imagine a
unix box as a home computer (nor a DOS machine, either).
A Mac Classic or LC will satisfy most students needs. However, I do
know some people that have purchased IIci's and other high-end
machines. These are the students that might consider buying a NeXT.
Someone buying a Mac II(or even IIfx) to run Mathematica is going to
be disappointed when he finds out that a machine that costs less
money, runs the program a lot faster.
-Mikemelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (01/27/91)
In article <1991Jan26.031909.10366@NCoast.ORG> allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) writes:
"Educational". Welcome to the real world, chum --- I post from home, I work
in a Unix business environment. I don't *get* educational pricing, and I
don't get educational solutions to problems.
Yeah, the NeXT doesn't seem nearly as appealing if you have to pay
$4995 for one. Especially, if you consider that you need more disk
space if you want to do development work. Of course, people are
paying that much for IBMs and Macs.
In my home environment, I have:
* IBM-compatible laptop
* XT-clone with a 386 card
* Xenix/386 box (currently on loan, will be replaced by a permanent 386 UNIX
box)
* Mac SE
Getting data between *any* of them is non-trivial, except that the XT-clone's
360K disks can be read by the Xenix box (but it doesn't work the other way
around, 1.2MB floppy drives don't do a good job of writing 360K disks and the
XT clone is rather particular about disks anyway). No Ethernet. (No slots
available in the XT or the laptop, so it wouldn't help anyway.) Not enough
serial ports to network *that* way --- and any more serial ports on the XT
would be absorbed for another purpose (packet) anyway.
How much does it cost to set up a 386 Unix box these days? The cost
of the machines themselve should drop even more now that AMD has
cloned the 386, but buying Unix itself seems to be a major cost.
Someone mentioned to me that it costs $1500 for SCO Unix.
Even ignoring the rest of the machines and their purposes, though: this is a
home environment. A NeXT does little for it; why do you think Apple has the
SE/30 as well as all the big Nubus machines? Because not everyone needs a big
do-everything computer, just a *small* fast machine. I want the SE/30 upgrade
for the speed and the ability to stuff more than 4MB of memory in it, but I
don't need a 32MB departmental server.
I realize that a machine with a 15 mip 68040 might seem like it's
overkill, but with the NeXT it is not. Display Postscript requires a
lot of horsepower, as does Unix, and Objective C. The extra
horsepower of the CPU is used to add more functionality to the
machine, not to create a machine that is blindingly fast. An SE/30
will probably seem faster than an 040 NeXT because it is only working
with 21K of video RAM using Quickdraw. The NeXT has a million pixel
display driven by a better imaging model, Display Postscript. The
NeXT is much more than a faster Mac II. It is going to change
computing as much as the Mac changed computing during its first couple
of years. And as with the Macintosh, it's not going to happen
overnight?
-Mikehal@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Aaron Harsh) (01/27/91)
In article <749G*$t7@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >Yeah, the NeXT doesn't seem nearly as appealing if you have to pay >$4995 for one. Especially, if you consider that you need more disk >space if you want to do development work. This isn't really true. If you want to keep the incredible amount of free software on a NeXT _AND_ have all the developers tools, you need a bigger hard disk. But clearing all the goodies off your system will leave you more than enough room. Strange how people try to use NeXT's generosity against them. -Aaron Harsh
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) (01/28/91)
As quoted from <749G*$t7@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): +--------------- | In article <1991Jan26.031909.10366@NCoast.ORG> allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) writes: | "Educational". Welcome to the real world, chum --- I post from home, I work | in a Unix business environment. I don't *get* educational pricing, and I | don't get educational solutions to problems. | | Yeah, the NeXT doesn't seem nearly as appealing if you have to pay | $4995 for one. Especially, if you consider that you need more disk | space if you want to do development work. Of course, people are | paying that much for IBMs and Macs. +--------------- I paid half that for my SE --- and got ripped off (it was available from other places for slightly over 2/3 of what I paid, I found out later). +--------------- | serial ports to network *that* way --- and any more serial ports on the XT | would be absorbed for another purpose (packet) anyway. | | How much does it cost to set up a 386 Unix box these days? The cost | of the machines themselve should drop even more now that AMD has | cloned the 386, but buying Unix itself seems to be a major cost. | Someone mentioned to me that it costs $1500 for SCO Unix. +--------------- True, but Esix is $850 if you can live without some niceties like manuals that come with the machine (I have manuals for SVR3.2 already, since I often get called at home to help out with emergencies on clients' machines, so this is no problem --- and there's always the Prentice-Hall set). I plan to put up a 386 Unix box, as I said (quote removed), but the Mac it ain't. Nor is Windows 3.0, which we have on a machine at work. X is margunally interesting but takes a lot of memory and even more horsepower; I use mgr, which is small, fast, and minimal, but you give up quite a few things to get that. In any case, the Unix box will be pretty much dedicated to various forms of communications --- I will continue to use a different machine (the SE) for other things. +--------------- | I realize that a machine with a 15 mip 68040 might seem like it's | overkill, but with the NeXT it is not. Display Postscript requires a | lot of horsepower, as does Unix, and Objective C. The extra | horsepower of the CPU is used to add more functionality to the | machine, not to create a machine that is blindingly fast. An SE/30 | will probably seem faster than an 040 NeXT because it is only working | with 21K of video RAM using Quickdraw. The NeXT has a million pixel | display driven by a better imaging model, Display Postscript. The | NeXT is much more than a faster Mac II. It is going to change | computing as much as the Mac changed computing during its first couple | of years. And as with the Macintosh, it's not going to happen | overnight? +--------------- I'll keep an eye on MachTen before conceding that Unix has to be a CPU-killer. (I also have experience with Altos 586s, which weren't the speed demons we're used to nowadays but somehow managed to be usable anyway.) And in any case, the NeXT can push computing "higher" all it wants, but until it's competitive in cost with existing computers, it won't catch on as you hope. You infer that the NeXT's base configuration is roughly equivalent to the base Mac configuration in terms of capability, but at twice the cost it won't make much of a dent down here at this end of the Mac users' spectrum. Now, if you could show me a NeXT "equivalent" of the Mac Classic or SE for under $2500, that would change. But it'd still have to be under $1500 to be competitive with an SE/30 upgrade for my existing SE. 2-plus-year-old computers don't resell very well, so selling the SE to help pay for a theoretical low-end NeXT wouldn't help much. PLEASE try to remember that, despite Apple's apparent (past?) unwillingness to pay attention to the low end, the Mac manages to cover everything from the home "front" up to high-end business machines, while the NeXT is designed as an educational machine with business shadings. It doesn't target the *entire* Mac lineup, and it's doubtful that it could be scaled down to do so. ++Brandon -- Me: Brandon S. Allbery VHF/UHF: KB8JRR on 220, 2m, 440 Internet: allbery@NCoast.ORG Packet: KB8JRR @ WA8BXN America OnLine: KB8JRR AMPR: KB8JRR.AmPR.ORG [44.70.4.88] uunet!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery Delphi: ALLBERY
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) (01/29/91)
As quoted from <i8G8ne8@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): +--------------- | In article <1991Jan27.174415.1236@NCoast.ORG> allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) writes: | hope. You infer that the NeXT's base configuration is roughly equivalent to | the base Mac configuration in terms of capability, but at twice the cost it | | How can you claim that NeXT's base machines are equivalent to an SE or | a Mac Classic? Outrageous! The Classic is only expandable to 4Megs | of memory. The NeXT Station ships with 8Megs, expandable to 32MB. | The Classic uses a 0.5mip processor while the NeXT uses a 15mip | processor. The SE, Classic, LC, and IIsi, have no floating-point | capability. The NeXT does 3 1/2Mflops. The last generation of +--------------- The specific claim was that the NeXT had to have that level of ability to be able to do what a Classic does. QED. +--------------- | But it'd still have to be under $1500 to be competitive with an SE/30 upgrade | for my existing SE. 2-plus-year-old computers don't resell very well, so | selling the SE to help pay for a theoretical low-end NeXT wouldn't help much. | | You can buy a CPU upgrade, but you still will be stuck with a 9" b/w | display, cheap sound, Quickdraw, no DMA, and 1/2 to 1/3 of the | horsepower of a 68040. Are you going to spend $$$ to get the | Superfloppy too? +--------------- I don't need a big display, color, or a 68040. I don't miss DMA. Re-read the quote below!!!!! +--------------- | PLEASE try to remember that, despite Apple's apparent (past?) unwillingness to | pay attention to the low end, the Mac manages to cover everything from the | home "front" up to high-end business machines, while the NeXT is designed as | an educational machine with business shadings. It doesn't target the *entire* | Mac lineup, and it's doubtful that it could be scaled down to do so. +--------------- I don't need what the NeXT offers. But the NeXT advocates keep claiming that the NeXT should replace *all* Macs. Pity they don't understand *all* of the Mac market. The low end *does* exist, despite what Apple thinks and despite what NeXT thinks (and despite what the rabid NeXT advocates think!). Stop trying to sell me a sledgehammer when all I'm trying to do is swat flies. +--------------- | have a profit margin on their $3250 machines. The way I see it, spend | a little more now and enjoy the functionality and power that Apple | will provide in two years, maybe. +--------------- It'll be two years before I'll need it. If I want a *fast* Unix box, there are plenty of 486es at work. HOME COMPUTING ENVIRONMENTS AREN'T THE SAME AS EDUCATIONAL OR BUSINESS ENVIRONMENTS! Sure, there will be those few "home" users who have lots of machines and Ethernet them together; I have lots of machines, but they fall into the "use the right machine for the right job" category (networking the packet switch with the machine I use for "accounting" (such as it is) and WP is senseless, the two do not and probably cannot intersect), and I have no need for high-end stuff. ++Brandon -- Me: Brandon S. Allbery VHF/UHF: KB8JRR on 220, 2m, 440 Internet: allbery@NCoast.ORG Packet: KB8JRR @ WA8BXN America OnLine: KB8JRR AMPR: KB8JRR.AmPR.ORG [44.70.4.88] uunet!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery Delphi: ALLBERY
wlarkin@hounix.uucp (Ward Larkin) (02/04/91)
In article <1109@intelisc.isc.intel.com> cfj@isc.intel.com (Charlie Johnson) writes: > >People seem to forget that there are many reasons for buying a particular >computer and only a few of those reasons are purely technical. I think that >some of the NeXT advocates are falling into the same trap as some of the >Amiga advocates have. I realize there a lot of areas where technically the >Amiga or the NeXT are better (multitasks, real Unix, etc.). That doesn't >mean that I'm going sell my SE/30 and run out and buy one. There are >considerations such as software & hardware investment. What I actually >use my Mac for and would any of these features which may be lacking on >the Mac really make any difference. Another important reason is that >my wife uses a Mac at work and she wanted to be able to work at home. > >Everything is not as black and white as some people try to make it. > >-- >Charles Johnson >Intel Corporation, Supercomputer Systems Division >15201 NW Greenbrier Pkwy >Beaverton, OR 97006 phone: (503)629-7605 email: cfj@isc.intel.com That's one of the many things that I like to see: someone working for one company ( that is, Intel ) who buys products made by a competitor company ( that is, the Motorola chips in the Mac. ) - Ward Larkin wlarkin@hounix.UUCP
gillies@cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) (02/04/91)
Just an observation: $2495 * (1.05 ^ 6) = $3243 i.e. the NeXTStation slab was introduced at about the same price (accounting for inflation) as the Mac 128K was introduced at in 1984. I didn't mean to start a flame war. I was just wondering, now that it looks like I can't afford a NeXT by selling my Mac II (and I'm not positive I want to sell it anyway), what you could do to eliminate the CPU bottlenecks in a Mac II (i.e. how might a 3rd-party 68040 upgrade approach NeXT performance)? Don Gillies | University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign gillies@cs.uiuc.edu | Digital Computer Lab, 1304 W. Springfield, Urbana IL ---------------------+------------------------------------------------------ "UGH! WAR! ... What is it GOOD FOR? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!" - 60's music lyrics --
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (02/04/91)
In article <1991Feb2.184720.4733@NCoast.ORG> allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) writes:
...and those of us, who the rabid NeXT advocates just can't seem to get a clue
on at all, who aren't interested in either big Macs or big NeXTs. Show me a
NeXT SE (or even SE/30).
I'm still carrying on a mail "discussion" with someone who's still trying to
convince me that I want --- no, NEED --- a NeXT. The latest go-round had him
switching to discussing "my LaserWriter". My response was "*What LaserWriter?
I have an Okidata 390. LOW-END, remember?" To which *his* response was
something about not dumping on LaserWriters --- he completely missed the fact
that I don't have or NEED a LaserWriter, so I use a dot-matric printer; this
despite the fact that I *stressed* LOW-END in my comment to him!
People who can't focus on the real world are hardly advertizements for NeXT.
That person be me. Anyway, I wasn't trying to change the subject to
LaserWriters. You said something about them, I think, and I was just
trying to figure out what you said. Confused? So, was(am) I.
The 105MB NeXTstation is NeXT's SE. I don't think that they will sell
another machine that is less power than that. The NeXT Station w/o
monitor only costs $2500(edu). If you look at Apple's price for the
SE/30 18 months ago, you will find that it was around $2300(edu). The
price of the monitor is a big factor is the total cost. The
NeXTstation color(4096) w/o monitor costs $3500(I think). The monitor
costs $2000.
How well will you be able to run System 7.0 on an SE? Wait until
System 8.0 hits the market. There is no floating-point coprocessor in
the Classic, IILC, or IIsi. The Classic can only be expanded to 4MB
of memory, and neither the Classic nor IILC can support virtual
memory. Apple lowered the prices, but they gave you more tradeoffs.
These machines are going to have a limited lifetime. NeXT's "SE" is
twice as fast as Apples IIfx, but at their IIcx price. The NeXT is
competive with workstations in price/performance. Actually, the NeXT
is a workstation. More like a personal workstation. Ah, your saying
to yourself, but I don't need a workstation, it's not worth $1000
more. Well, I say, wait until the NeXT generation of software hits
the market. It's just going to get bigger and slower. Of course the
developers can always leave out some of the functionality so that the
software will perform well on an SE. Maybe Hypercard 3.0 will have
direct support for color. It's a shame that they had to leave it out
of 2.0.
Image what software developers can do if memory considerations aren't
important, and you've got CPU to burn.
-Mikejohnston@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Jon Johnston) (02/05/91)
This is a very nice discussion that you guys have going here. Next and
Macintosh....hmmmm....
I don't believe that Mr. Jobs would be in business iwth Next today if he
hadn't come out with the lower priced models. On the other hand, I honestly
don't believe he's going to be in business in three years, in spite of the
lower priced models.
Seriously, after working with other xwindows type of systems, the Next
doesn't really provide anything new, does it? Other than using Objective-C,
and the Interface Builder... what have you?
And who's going to buy the machine, who is using it???? Other than
college students who have some bucks to spend on it... most of the arguements
seem bent on power and theoretical goo, not real world usage.
my two bits... not worth much. but, it's a free country.
UUCP: {amdahl!bungia, crash}!orbit!pnet51!johnston
ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!johnston@nosc.mil
INET: johnston@pnet51.orb.mn.orgyee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) (02/07/91)
In article <4009@orbit.cts.com> johnston@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Jon Johnston) writes: ... |> Seriously, after working with other xwindows type of systems, the Next |> doesn't really provide anything new, does it? Other than using Objective-C, |> and the Interface Builder... what have you? Don't forget the DSP and sound. This is the most intelligent thing I have read in the Mac .vs. NeXT flame war. What does a NeXT station give you that a X Windows workstation with display postscript and bundled desktop does not? A NeXT verses X workstation comparison seems more fair than a NeXT verses Mac. They both have a distributed graphics environment, some flavor of unix, display postscript, ethernet, 10mips+, etc. |> And who's going to buy the machine, who is using it???? Other than |> college students who have some bucks to spend on it... most of the arguements |> seem bent on power and theoretical goo, not real world usage. |> Sad but true. I really wanted the NeXT to survive. But there's hope still. If NeXT would support X windows as an integral part of the system, then it would have everything that a X workstation has and more. Are you listening, Steve? |> my two bits... not worth much. but, it's a free country. =Mike -- = Michael K. Yee -- yee@osf.org or uunet!osf.org!yee -- = OSF/Motif Development = "I can't give you brains, but I can give you a diploma." -- The Wizard of OZ
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (02/07/91)
In article <YEE.91Feb6114432@katana.osf.org> yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) writes: In article <4009@orbit.cts.com> johnston@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Jon Johnston) writes: ... |> Seriously, after working with other xwindows type of systems, the Next |> doesn't really provide anything new, does it? Other than using Objective-C, |> and the Interface Builder... what have you? Don't forget the DSP and sound. This is the most intelligent thing I have read in the Mac .vs. NeXT flame war. What does a NeXT station give you that a X Windows workstation with display postscript and bundled desktop does not? A NeXT verses X workstation comparison seems more fair than a NeXT verses Mac. They both have a distributed graphics environment, some flavor of unix, display postscript, ethernet, 10mips+, etc. Don't forget price/performance that is comparable with a workstation. The NeXT gives you a GUI that is comparable to the Mac's. I see it as the bridge b/w the workstation and PC worlds. Hopefully, it won't get squashed b/w them. Sad but true. I really wanted the NeXT to survive. But there's hope still. If NeXT would support X windows as an integral part of the system, then it would have everything that a X workstation has and more. Are you listening, Steve? X windows will be available for the NeXT on March 15. I don't believe that it should be an integral part of the system. Besides, Display Postscript is a better imaging model. I think that most people would rather use FrameMaker with DP rather than X. Adobe Illustrator and Quark XPress wouldn't be as good with an X front-end either. -Mike
Garance_Drosehn@mts.rpi.edu (02/07/91)
In article <YEE.91Feb6114432@katana.osf.org> yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) writes: ...(lost of stuff deleted)... > Sad but true. I really wanted the NeXT to survive. But there's > hope still. If NeXT would support X windows as an integral part of > the system, then it would have everything that a X workstation has > and more. Are you listening, Steve? > Why would Steve Jobs be listening to questions in a thread titled "68040 for the Mac?" which is going on in the comp.sys.mac.misc newsgroup?
n67786@lehtori.tut.fi (Nieminen Tero) (02/07/91)
In article <?qdG-zqg@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes:
X windows will be available for the NeXT on March 15. I don't believe
that it should be an integral part of the system. Besides, Display
Postscript is a better imaging model. I think that most people would
rather use FrameMaker with DP rather than X. Adobe Illustrator and
Quark XPress wouldn't be as good with an X front-end either.
X-windows is no more an imaging model than ascii is. X-windows describes
only the interfacing surface between an application and the window system.
--
Tero Nieminen Tampere University of Technology
n67786@cc.tut.fi Tampere, Finland, Europeyoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) (02/07/91)
johnston@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Jon Johnston) writes: > ...after working with other xwindows type systems, the Next >doesn't really provide anything new, does it? NeXTStep is to X windows what System 7.0 will be to, say, MS Windows 1.0. > who is going to buy the machine, who is using it?? Other than >college students who have some bucks to spend on it.... Hmmm...I bought a Mac SE because I was in college and got a reasonable deal (for the time) on it: $2500-$3000 with printer. The Mac made its first impact on the educational market, and then desktop publishing. The NeXT is making it's impact on the educational market (see Wall Street Journal, Feb. 1), and is doing well with businesses and govt. agencies. Businesses are particularly attracted to it because it is a great USER machine (ease-of-use, great interface, sound, and graphics) and it is a great PROGRAMMER's machine (Interface Builder, Objective-C, the AppKit). What can you use a NeXT for today? Let's see...desktop publishing, revolutionary spreadsheet processing (Improv just shipped), large scale distributed databases (a rarity on Macs), wordprocessing, music, software development, multimedia? What else do you use your Mac for? Oh yeah, there are some games available for the NeXT, including a shareware Tetris. Young-Kyu Yoo NeXT Software Developer
krk@cs.purdue.EDU (Kevin Kuehl) (02/07/91)
In article <N67786.91Feb7034922@lehtori.tut.fi> n67786@lehtori.tut.fi (Nieminen Tero) writes: >X-windows is no more an imaging model than ascii is. X-windows describes >only the interfacing surface between an application and the window system. That's why Mike is right, it isn't an imaging model. :-) Actually X windows itself is really only a networking protocol. People just happen to provide clients with it that do usefull things. It describes how a client application is to communicate with the window manager server. If you compare it to the TCP/IP interface found on most BSD-Unix machines, you will find a lot more similarities than if you try to compare X to a model such as NeXTStep, GL, etc. I think that is usually where people fault X. They try to force it to be something it isn't. -- Kevin Kuehl krk@cs.purdue.edu kuehlkr@mentor.cc.purude.edu
cfj@isc.intel.com (Charlie Johnson) (02/08/91)
In article <1991Feb4.030334.23049@hounix.uucp> wlarkin@hounix.uucp (Ward Larkin) writes: > >That's one of the many things that I like to see: someone working for >one company ( that is, Intel ) who buys products made by a competitor >company ( that is, the Motorola chips in the Mac. ) > >- Ward Larkin > wlarkin@hounix.UUCP I thought you could do everything with i860s. We do. -- Charles Johnson Intel Corporation, Supercomputer Systems Division 15201 NW Greenbrier Pkwy Beaverton, OR 97006 phone: (503)629-7605 email: cfj@isc.intel.com
gwangung@milton.u.washington.edu (Just another theatre geek.....) (02/08/91)
In article <23034@well.sf.ca.us> yoo@well.sf.ca.us (Young-Kyu Yoo) writes: >What can you use a NeXT for today? Let's see...desktop publishing, For curiosity sake, can you dump output from a program and take it to a Linotronic or Compugraphic service shop and get 2540 dpi output? Get output on film? Or get larger page output than 8 1/2 by 14? And what exactly IS available? TODAY, not Real Soon Now. -- ----- Roger Tang, gwangung@milton.u.washington.edu Middle-class weenie and art nerd
sramtrc@windy.dsir.govt.nz (02/08/91)
I am interested in 68040 for the Mac but whenever I read an article with that title I find that it has nothing to do with 68040 for the Mac. It is some discussion of Mac vs Next. PLEASE USE INFORMATIVE AND ACCURATE SUBJECT LINES. The purpose of subject lines is to give the subject of the article. And you guys are abusing News etiquette by giving misleading subject lines. I am forced to read a whole lot of articles that I do not want to read just in case one of them really does contain something about its subject. Tony Cooper sramtrc@albert.dsir.govt.nz (You know what's funny though. When I read the start of an article and see that it is one of those misleading ones and want to skip the article what do I type in? You guessed it - "next")
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) (02/10/91)
As quoted from <a+aGdxhe@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): +--------------- | The 105MB NeXTstation is NeXT's SE. I don't think that they will sell +--------------- "I laugh because I dare not cry." +--------------- | How well will you be able to run System 7.0 on an SE? Wait until | System 8.0 hits the market. There is no floating-point coprocessor in +--------------- How many low-end users plan to upgrade to System 7.0, much less 8.0? That's what I thought. I have ATM, I have the software I need, I don't plan to upgrade any of it. I don't even *need* the SE/30 upgrade and am increasingly contemplating throwing that money into the packet server. Get a clue already, will you? +--------------- | software will perform well on an SE. Maybe Hypercard 3.0 will have | direct support for color. It's a shame that they had to leave it out | of 2.0. +--------------- Should I care? (hint, hint) +--------------- | Image what software developers can do if memory considerations aren't | important, and you've got CPU to burn. +--------------- Should I care? (hint, hint) ++Brandon -- Me: Brandon S. Allbery VHF/UHF: KB8JRR on 220, 2m, 440 Internet: allbery@NCoast.ORG Packet: KB8JRR @ WA8BXN America OnLine: KB8JRR AMPR: KB8JRR.AmPR.ORG [44.70.4.88] uunet!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery Delphi: ALLBERY
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (02/12/91)
In article <1991Feb9.194049.19192@NCoast.ORG> allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) writes: How many low-end users plan to upgrade to System 7.0, much less 8.0? That's what I thought. I have ATM, I have the software I need, I don't plan to upgrade any of it. I don't even *need* the SE/30 upgrade and am increasingly contemplating throwing that money into the packet server. Get a clue already, will you? Hey, System 7.0 is slick. Don't pass it up. I don't think that many people will. At least I hope they don't. +--------------- | software will perform well on an SE. Maybe Hypercard 3.0 will have | direct support for color. It's a shame that they had to leave it out | of 2.0. +--------------- Come on, your a self confessed minimalist. There aren't too many people like you in the world. Should I care? (hint, hint) There are a lot of people who use Hypercard that would like direct color support. Let's hope Apple doesn't listen to you. +--------------- | Image what software developers can do if memory considerations aren't | important, and you've got CPU to burn. +--------------- Should I care? (hint, hint) Hey, how about the next time you feel like replying with this kind of a follow-up, do it via e-mail. This is stupid trash (hint, hint). Why don't you just sit back, shut up, and watch the computer industry move towards the year 2000. You have your SE. What more do you need? You obviously don't have anything to contribute. Apple didn't have a $1000 computer until 1990 and they managed to sell over 4 million machines. -Mike
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) (02/16/91)
As quoted from <d#5Gk8$k@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): +--------------- | You obviously don't have anything to contribute. Apple didn't have a | $1000 computer until 1990 and they managed to sell over 4 million | machines. +--------------- Look, friend. Advertizers have done a very, very good job of convincing everyone in the U.S. that everyone needs an all-singing, all-dancing mega- computer just to balance their checkbooks. THAT is what p*sses me off. And then you NeXT types come in and perpetuate the myth. Most people do NOT really need NeXTs, or IIfx's. In fact, most people don't need 386 boxes, but most people go out and get them (to run DOS, which doesn't even *use* the 386's capabilities except in the most minimal ways (assuming QEMM, 386^MAX, Windows 3.0, or etc.)!) anyway. Because everyone has been trained to jump through their hoops and go buy the biggest, fastest, most expensive thing they can regardless of whether they need it or not. Your persistent attempts to pull this wool over all our eyes set me off. I may be a particularly extreme example, but that doesn't mean I'm the ONLY example. Use some sense: you have, perhaps, heard of bell curves? Just because I'm at the far side doesn't mean that the curve looks like a huge, narrow spike and me alone way off to one side. ++Brandon -- Me: Brandon S. Allbery VHF/UHF: KB8JRR on 220, 2m, 440 Internet: allbery@NCoast.ORG Packet: KB8JRR @ WA8BXN America OnLine: KB8JRR AMPR: KB8JRR.AmPR.ORG [44.70.4.88] uunet!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery Delphi: ALLBERY