morris-ng@cup.portal.com (Yuklung Morris Ng) (12/09/90)
For sale: Mac IIsi with 2 meg ram, 40 meg internal HD, NuBus slot option, math- coprocessor, system software 6.0.7, HyperCard 2.0, + Extended Keyboard II. Price: $2500 o.b.o If interested, call (408)725-1362. - Morris
derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) (12/11/90)
WHAT!?!?!?!?! This thing just appears on the shelves and you already want to get rid of it??????????????????? -- = John DeRosa, Motorola, Inc, Cellular Infrastructure Group = = e-mail: ...uunet!motcid!derosaj, motcid!derosaj@uunet.uu.net = = Applelink: N1111 = =I do not hold by employer responsible for any information in this message =
jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley) (12/13/90)
derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) writes: >WHAT!?!?!?!?! This thing just appears on the shelves and >you already want to get rid of it??????????????????? Some people know a dog when they see one. Others have to actually spend time and (too much) money before they see the dog as a dog. Still others can be mauled for years and still carry on in ignorant bliss. Where do you fit in? Just so you know where I fit in... In 82, I bought a 64k, 1 floppy, mono IBM PC with printer. ~ $3,600. IBM never got any more of my money. In 84 I bought a 128k mac, external floppy and Imagewriter. ~ $4,000. $5,000 later it is an accelerated plus. I have spent more money on the damn thing than what I paid for a new truck last year. I gave it to my wife. She hates computers, loves the mac. I bought 3 used 3b1s for under $1,000 total about 4 years ago, learned unix, and now make a living at it. Apple can go piss in the wind. I have been mauled enough. Now, before you go jumping on me for putting apple down, take a deep breath for each percent of the cost of macs that is pure profit. By the time you finish, you will have forgotten why you were upset at me. Flames > /dev/null. -- Jan Isley jan@bagend {known universe}!gatech!bagend!jan (404)434-1335
amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) (12/14/90)
In article <5350@crystal9.UUCP> derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) writes: >WHAT!?!?!?!?! This thing just appears on the shelves and >you already want to get rid of it??????????????????? From the price asked, it looks like he bought it through the Developer or Educational purchase plan, and is looking to make a (very small) profit. This is illegal, according to Apple's special purchase program agreements, which specify that machine purchased through them cannot be resold for one year after purchase. -- Amanda Walker amanda@visix.com Visix Software Inc. ...!uunet!visix!amanda -- UNIX: The only operating system that can be destroyed by mail.
rdd@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Robert Dorsett) (12/14/90)
In article <twpyv0scpa@visix.com> amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) writes: >From the price asked, it looks like he bought it through the Developer or >Educational purchase plan, and is looking to make a (very small) profit. >This is illegal, A violation of contract. >according to Apple's special purchase program agreements, >which specify that machine purchased through them cannot be resold for one >year after purchase. UT Austin explicitly permits it, provided the seller (the UT MicroCenter) is given the first right of refusal. --- Robert Dorsett Internet: rdd@rascal.ics.utexas.edu UUCP: ...cs.utexas.edu!rascal.ics.utexas.edu!rdd
jhagen@TALOS.UUCP (Jarom Hagen) (12/14/90)
jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley) writes: >In 82, I bought a 64k, 1 floppy, mono IBM PC with printer. ~ $3,600. >IBM never got any more of my money. In 81, I bought a 64k, 2 floppy, color Apple II+ with printer for ~$4,000. In 87 I bought a 1Meg, 20Meg Hard disk MacIntosh SE & printer for ~$3,300. I also bought an NEC AT clone with 640K and a 40Meg hard disk and printer for about $2,900. In 89 I bought a 1Meg, 40Meg SE/30 for about $3,700. >In 84 I bought a 128k mac, external floppy and Imagewriter. ~ $4,000. >$5,000 later it is an accelerated plus. I have spent more money on >the damn thing than what I paid for a new truck last year. I gave it >to my wife. She hates computers, loves the mac. I've spent more on computers than cars too. But, cars never made money for me. >I bought 3 used 3b1s for under $1,000 total about 4 years ago, learned >unix, and now make a living at it. Apple can go piss in the wind. >I have been mauled enough. >Now, before you go jumping on me for putting apple down, take a deep >breath for each percent of the cost of macs that is pure profit. By the >time you finish, you will have forgotten why you were upset at me. With the Apple computers I bought (not to mention printers) I have made enough money to have paid for the machines and have a nice profitable business that my wife runs. With the NEC, I have only managed to recover 1/3 of the cost. So, I am happy that Apple can make ME money and I hope they can continue to make money too. Jarom -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Not paid for and/or endorsed by National Political Resources Incorporated. 602 Cameron St, Alexandria VA 22314 (UUCP: ...uunet!uupsi!pbs!npri6!jhagen)
clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) (12/14/90)
In article <41337@ut-emx.uucp> rdd@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Robert Dorsett) writes: >In article <twpyv0scpa@visix.com> amanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) writes: >>according to Apple's special purchase program agreements, >>which specify that machine purchased through them cannot be resold for one >>year after purchase. > >UT Austin explicitly permits it, provided the seller (the UT MicroCenter) >is given the first right of refusal. > Close. Actually, UT MicroCenter's verbiage is a little inconsistent. In one place it states: "I understand and agree that this equipment/software is for MY OWN ACADEMIC OR PERSONAL USE and not for resale, lease, or other disposition for a period of at least two (2) years." ^^^^^^^ However, elsewhere it says: "If I wish to sell any product purchased from the MicroCenter within two years of purchase, I agree to give, in writing, The Texas Union MicroCenter the first right of refusal. However, this in no way obligates the ...." These two clauses leave me a little hazy on whether you can resell your equipment if the MicroCenter doesn't want it... however, it seems clear that not offering them the first shot is definitely a violation of the contract-- penalties for which include return of the products, disciplinary action, etc. Apple has at least three different "university Mac discount" programs in operation, so it seems likely that details will vary from school to school. Gotta agree, though, that Ms. Walker's analysis is the most probable explanation for the low-ball price on that brand-new IIsi... -- ........................................................................... : Kathy Strong : "Try our Hubble-Rita: just one shot, : : (Clouds moving slowly) : and everything's blurry" : : clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu : --El Arroyo : :..........................................................................:
davoli@natinst.com (Russell Davoli) (12/14/90)
In article <1990Dec13.035030.27241@bagend.uucp>, jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley) writes: > Now, before you go jumping on me for putting apple down, take a deep > breath for each percent of the cost of macs that is pure profit. By the > time you finish, you will have forgotten why you were upset at me. > > Jan Isley jan@bagend {known universe}!gatech!bagend!jan (404)434-1335 We keep hearing this kind of stuff on the net every time someone mentions any other computing platform, usually in relation to something people are religious about, like the NeXT. Does anybody know or has heard rumors (like for MacWeek) about what Apple's profit margin really is? If I remember what little economics I've had, you've got to expect a company to make something like at least 15-20% or else the owners could just as well put their money into investments earning 10-12%. Now, I'm not necessarily defending Apple's practices, but there are economic realities to capitalism. For that matter, does anyone have any idea what NeXT's profit margins are? If they have low margins on the new machines, I wouldn't expect them to stay around in the long run, despite how great the machines sound (I haven't seen one, only read about them). Russell Davoli National Instruments Disclaimer: My opinions are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employers.
bitting-douglas@cs.yale.edu (Douglas Bitting) (12/15/90)
In article <17358@natinst.natinst.com> davoli@natinst.com (Russell Davoli) writes: >remember what little economics I've had, you've got to expect a company to >make something like at least 15-20% or else the owners could just as well >put their money into investments earning 10-12%. Don't quote me on this, but I could swear I read a little factoid a couple of years ago that said that Apple had the highest profit margin in the personal computer industry... something like 35-40% (???). Now, this is just from memory, so take it as you will... then add a couple smilies and a huge grain of salt. :-) >Russell Davoli >National Instruments > >Disclaimer: My opinions are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of > my employers. --Doug
jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley) (12/17/90)
davoli@natinst.com (Russell Davoli) writes: >In article <1990Dec13.035030.27241@bagend.uucp>, jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley) writes: >> Now, before you go jumping on me for putting apple down, take a deep >> breath for each percent of the cost of macs that is pure profit. By the >> time you finish, you will have forgotten why you were upset at me. >We keep hearing this kind of stuff on the net every time someone mentions >any other computing platform, usually in relation to something people are >religious about, like the NeXT. Does anybody know or has heard rumors >(like for MacWeek) about what Apple's profit margin really is? If I >remember what little economics I've had, you've got to expect a company to >make something like at least 15-20% or else the owners could just as well >put their money into investments earning 10-12%. Okay, I can clarify my comments a little more. And no, I am not religious about any computer. I have to agree, that if a company is not making at least 20% margins, they should get out of the business. I do not know specific margins for any of these companies, but our developer's discount with hp and sun are 40%, next is 30%. Next's university discount is also 30% +/- a point or two depending on where you get it. One can only speculate how these prices compare to the actual profit margins. Hopefully, someone out there will help me out with more specifics, I have recycled about 2 tons of old magazines this year. When the SE first came out, several of the engineering trade magazines did case studies on the mac manufacturing process. The bottom line was that, even when it first came out, the cost to manufacture, package, and deliver to dealer cost of an SE was less than $300. This was when the SE was retailing for about $3,000. The Plus, estimated to cost just over $400 to manufacture, was selling for about $2,000. Now, the marketing alter ego in me would say that Apple should have discontinued the Plus, sold the SE for $995 retail, and developed a *huge* market share, but Apple did not ask me. They sold both models for years at about a 1,000% markup. And don't even suggest to me that it took that kind of markup to pay the non-recurring engineering costs for the Plus and the SE. Rubbish. -- Jan Isley jan@bagend {known universe}!gatech!bagend!jan (404)434-1335
jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley) (12/20/90)
rsfinn@athena.mit.edu (Russell S. Finn) writes: >Of course, not all of that margin is going to Apple; the dealers are presumably >getting a piece of that action. When Apple is making about 1,000%, the dealer's less than 10% does not even enter into the equation. >I'd also be curious to know how that compares >to markups for other computer companies with established retail channels Manufacturers that I have delt with and worked for are *real* glad to get 100%. >|> And don't even suggest to me that it took that kind of markup to pay the >|> non-recurring engineering costs for the Plus and the SE. Rubbish. >But Apple is no longer a company run by two guys out of their garage; they have >significantly more expenses than hardware engineering costs. (For instance, I >heard once that Apple was employing around 250 software engineers on System >7.0; whether you regard that as a gross over-estimate, or an excellent reason >why it's so late, :-) they've still got to pay those people, and they don't >charge much for system software....) another excellent reason why the product has improved so little over the years. >Regardless of whether or not you think the actual profit margin is too high, >this kind of reasoning strikes me as a bit specious. I mean, it only costs >about a dollar to stamp out a compact disk, which routinely sells for more than >ten dollars. Now obviously you're paying for more than acrylic and aluminum >foil when you buy a CD; but it's equally obvious to me that you're paying for >more than silicon and a power supply when you buy a Macintosh. (People who >bought their computers from Joe's PC Klones may not agree with this point. :-) This line could go on forever. The box of cereal cost more than the contents. Oil companies make about $0.01 per $1.00 and the government gets 0.15 to 0.25 per gallon, while charging that the oil companies are making windfall profits. While you are talking economies of scale, reevalute your analogy of a comparing markup on a $10 item to a $1,000, $3,000 or even $10,000 item... it != >Apple's previous policy was to sell computers at a high markup, sacrificing >market share for gross margin; this strategy seems to have resulted in the >accumulation of several hundred million dollars. Apple's current policy, which >represents a partial reversal of the previous policy, has so far resulted in >their being unable to keep up with demand; I predict this will lead to the >accumulation of several hundred million more dollars. No, Apple's previous policy was to stress the limits of what the market would take while engaging in ridiculus legal handwaving to crush any potential of fair trade and competition. New models, same policy. >Feel free to run your own company any way you want. I do. -- Jan Isley jan@bagend {known universe}!gatech!bagend!jan (404)434-1335
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan J Torrie) (12/21/90)
jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley) writes: >rsfinn@athena.mit.edu (Russell S. Finn) writes: >>Of course, not all of that margin is going to Apple; the dealers are presumably >>getting a piece of that action. >When Apple is making about 1,000%, the dealer's less than 10% does not even >enter into the equation. Perhaps people should take a look at what some textbooks have to say on the issue of cost. From Hennessy and Patterson, costs are divided into four categories: Component costs: (Obvious) Direct costs: costs related to making a product, including labor, purchasing components, scrap, and warranty. (typically 25% to 40%) Gross Margin: company's overhead that cannot be billed directly to one product. e.g. R&D, marketing, sales, manufacturing equipment maintenance, building rental, cost of financing, pretax profits amd taxes. (typically 45% to 65%. NB: Apple's gross margin has been around 53-55% for the past five years. Sculley says this will drop back with the new strategy) Average Discount: adds on the dealer discount to get the list (typically 40%). They then procede to give an example for a typical workstation (8MB, monochrome display, keyboard, mouse) Component costs: $2,145 Compononent + direct costs: $3,003 Av. selling pr (+ gross margin): $7,508 List price: $10,010 In other words, a five-fold increase over the actual hardware costs of the machine. This is fairly typical throughout the industry, according to H&P. Apple's figures don't look particularly out of line when you compare them to these. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "She's got a tongue like an electric eel, and she likes the taste of a man's tonsils!" - Rik Flashheart
paryavi@harris.cis.ksu.edu (Saiid Paryavi) (01/07/91)
I posted my Mac IIsi for sale and had a buyer who offered me $2500 for it.
Unfortunately, he backed down at the last minute, so here we go again.
Mac IIsi
2 MEG RAM
40 MEG Hard Disk
Extended Keyboard
Mouse
All the original docs., boxes, disks
Less than 2 months old
Monitor is NOT included!
Any takers for $2500?
Send e-mail or call 913-776-1845 or fax 913-776-9900
--
Saiid Paryavi CIS Department
Internet: paryavi@harris.cis.ksu.edu Nichols Hall, KSU
UUCP: {rutgers, texbell}!ksuvax1!harry!paryavi Manhattan, KS 66506gavron@alpha.sunquest.com (Ehud Gavron) (01/07/91)
In article <4801@umbc3.UMBC.EDU>, chuck@umbc5.umbc.edu
(Chuck Rickard; ACS (UGRAD)) writes...
[ talking about a comparison to low educational price ]
#
#Maybe this person is trying to sell it to someone who isn't a student?
#
Anyone can get educational prices. It doesn't take any more
than a. saying you're a student, b. saying you're an
education professional, c. knowing someone who is who can
buy the stuff for you.
The only people who don't aren't people, they're organizations,
which fall neatly into the other two pricing categories: Government
and Corporation discounts.
"What?" you ask, "does nobody pay the list price anymore?"
None that I know of ;-)
#Chuck Rickard
#(chuck@umbc5.umbc.edu)
Ehud Gavron (gavron@vesta.sunquest.com / @arizona.bitnet)mdc@spt.entity.com (Marty Connor) (01/08/91)
Regarding the Mac IIsi and the price asked:
Since most people cannot easily get educational pricing on machines,
for the most part that price is irrelevant except to the people who
are university affiliated or know someone who is willing to do
something shady for them.
If the machine in question was purchased on a university discount and
is now being sold at market value, one could argue that that practices
is unethical, however, if the price is worth it to a buyer (one who
cannot get university pricing, for example), they will likely buy it.
As someone else pointed out, there are people who are not university
affiliated, and must normally pay something much closer to retail...
--
Marty Connor, Marty's Computer Workshop, Home of the Wrist Pad[tm] Plus!
126 Inman Street, Cambridge, MA 02139
Voice: (617) 491-6935, Fax: (617) 491-7046
Net: mdc@entity.com, or ...{harvard|uunet}!mit-eddie!spt!mdcjeffb@pro-gateway.cts.com (Jeff Baron) (03/14/91)
Mac IISI 5 Megs RAM 40 Meg Hard Drive Please make offer if interested ---- Internet: jeffb@pro-gateway.cts.com
jeffb@pro-gateway.cts.com (Jeff Baron) (03/30/91)
Mac IISI 5 Megs RAM 40 Meg Hard drive $2350 Jeff Baron 214-596-9190 ---- Internet: jeffb@pro-gateway.cts.com