dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (04/20/91)
There has been some chatter lately in the Amiga newsgroups that the
New Tek Video Toaster will soon be available for Mac users. It replaces
$50,000 worth of professional video equipment by using the Amiga CPU and
the New Tek hardware. It also includes Toaster Paint, and Lightwave 3D.
Apparantly the Toaster will be bundled with either an Amiga 2000 or a
set of custom Amiga chips combined with a special CPU, but it will be in an
Amiga 2000 expansion case. This may mean that it will have 5 additional
expansion slots for time based corrector and other graphics boards. It will
also be able to interface directly with a Mac or read Mac floppies. It
should cost about $4000.
--
David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN Tomas Arce
Any students from SUNY Oswego? Please let me know! :)
Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.rkmossm@PacBell.COM (Richard Mossman) (04/23/91)
I read an article about the Video Toaster the other day that commented on the
possibility of them making one for the Mac soon. I called NewTek and talked
to one of the salestypes. She said there were NO plans for a Mac-based Video
Toaster in ANY future. What the article was referring to was the Amiga 2000
based turnkey system that they currently sell and using a Mac with the video
output converted to NTSC as one of the video inputs. Nothing more. You can
do that now for (that's right) $4,000.
What I would really like to see is someone come out with a direct connect
Mac device that does Toaster-level stuff with a built in NTSC conversion
for $2,000. That would make my beloved Mac into a consumer level video
machine for a reasonable price. Reasonable, albeit not Cheap.
--
Richard K. Mossman {att,bellcore,sun,ames,decwrl}!pacbell!rkmossm
415/823-0974
=========================================================================
"I need to put some distance between overkill and me!" -- E. John (1988)graham@ug.cs.dal.ca (Michael Graham) (04/23/91)
In article <5967@pbhyb.PacBell.COM> rkmossm@PacBell.COM (Richard Mossman) writes: > >What I would really like to see is someone come out with a direct connect >Mac device that does Toaster-level stuff with a built in NTSC conversion >for $2,000. That would make my beloved Mac into a consumer level video >machine for a reasonable price. Reasonable, albeit not Cheap. Luckily I'm a Mac owner. An Amiga owner would laugh his head off at this idea. Do you have any idea of what the toaster can do? If not try and catch Tod Rundgren's latest video. It *easily* rivals what I have seen from Pixar and SGI. It could easily do the Lifesaver ad. I don't have all the specs on this product, but similar Mac boards look like a JOKE when compared with the toaster. Remember - I'm a Mac owner, not an Amiga fanatic. mike -- Michael Graham |"Say you were going to sing in a club tomorrow - graham@ug.cs.dal.ca | what kind of stuff would you sing?" mgraham@ac.dal.ca |"Something nice...something very, very nice...a song - graham@iris1.ucis.dal.ca| a tune, a ballad perhaps" - Diane Keaton on Letterman
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/23/91)
In article <1991Apr23.031929.16324@cs.dal.ca> graham@ug.cs.dal.ca (Michael Graham) writes: >In article <5967@pbhyb.PacBell.COM> rkmossm@PacBell.COM (Richard Mossman) writes: >> >>What I would really like to see is someone come out with a direct connect >>Mac device that does Toaster-level stuff with a built in NTSC conversion >>for $2,000. That would make my beloved Mac into a consumer level video >>machine for a reasonable price. Reasonable, albeit not Cheap. > > Luckily I'm a Mac owner. An Amiga owner would laugh his head off at this >idea. Do you have any idea of what the toaster can do? If not try and catch >Tod Rundgren's latest video. It *easily* rivals what I have seen from Pixar >and SGI. It could easily do the Lifesaver ad. > I don't have all the specs on this product, but similar Mac boards look like >a JOKE when compared with the toaster. > Remember - I'm a Mac owner, not an Amiga fanatic. > The biggest step forward will be when NewTek releases the interface specs for their board and software so that 3rd party companies (er, make that 4th party companies 8-) can start developing improvements. I can think of a lot of fun things to do with dual 24 bit frame buffers! >mike >-- >Michael Graham |"Say you were going to sing in a club tomorrow - >graham@ug.cs.dal.ca | what kind of stuff would you sing?" >mgraham@ac.dal.ca |"Something nice...something very, very nice...a song - >graham@iris1.ucis.dal.ca| a tune, a ballad perhaps" - Diane Keaton on Letterman -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
graham@ug.cs.dal.ca (Michael Graham) (04/24/91)
In article <1991Apr23.045546.18569@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > The biggest step forward will be when NewTek releases the >interface specs for their board and software so that 3rd party >companies (er, make that 4th party companies 8-) can start >developing improvements. I can think of a lot of fun things to do >with dual 24 bit frame buffers! > Why would they release the specs on this state of the art board? mike -- Michael Graham |"Say you were going to sing in a club tomorrow - graham@ug.cs.dal.ca | what kind of stuff would you sing?" mgraham@ac.dal.ca |"Something nice...something very, very nice...a song - graham@iris1.ucis.dal.ca| a tune, a ballad perhaps" - Diane Keaton on Letterman
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/24/91)
In article <1991Apr23.171539.4428@cs.dal.ca> graham@ug.cs.dal.ca (Michael Graham) writes: >In article <1991Apr23.045546.18569@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > >> The biggest step forward will be when NewTek releases the >>interface specs for their board and software so that 3rd party >>companies (er, make that 4th party companies 8-) can start >>developing improvements. I can think of a lot of fun things to do >>with dual 24 bit frame buffers! >> > Why would they release the specs on this state of the art board? > They aren't stupid. They know that their product will eventually start to lag behind. The best way to prevent that, or at least improve the situation, is to have lots of support. NewTek is a small company headquartered in Topeka, KS. They can't do it all by themselves. Besides, there are tons of little utilities out there which could greatly improve things. Also, since there is interprocess communications, people can write routines that will link the paint, 3-D and DVE programs together, if NewTek releases specs. I seem to remember talk about a Toaster Developers Conference. Basically, I think they are taking the IBM route. It is AMAZING what has been done with such a miserable OS and CPU. Absolutely astounding. While both Apple and Commodore have held back to closed systems, fearing competition would hurt sales, the MS-DOS market has well over 80 million machines and IBMs sales are doing quite well. >mike > >-- >Michael Graham |"Say you were going to sing in a club tomorrow - >graham@ug.cs.dal.ca | what kind of stuff would you sing?" >mgraham@ac.dal.ca |"Something nice...something very, very nice...a song - >graham@iris1.ucis.dal.ca| a tune, a ballad perhaps" - Diane Keaton on Letterman -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
ewm@mdavcr.UUCP (Eric W. Mitchell) (04/25/91)
In article <1991Apr23.031929.16324@cs.dal.ca> graham@ug.cs.dal.ca (Michael Graham) writes: >In article <5967@pbhyb.PacBell.COM> rkmossm@PacBell.COM (Richard Mossman) writes: >> >>What I would really like to see is someone come out with a direct connect >>Mac device that does Toaster-level stuff with a built in NTSC conversion >>for $2,000. That would make my beloved Mac into a consumer level video >>machine for a reasonable price. Reasonable, albeit not Cheap. > > Luckily I'm a Mac owner. An Amiga owner would laugh his head off at this >idea. Do you have any idea of what the toaster can do? If not try and catch >Tod Rundgren's latest video. It *easily* rivals what I have seen from Pixar >and SGI. It could easily do the Lifesaver ad. > I don't have all the specs on this product, but similar Mac boards look like >a JOKE when compared with the toaster. > Remember - I'm a Mac owner, not an Amiga fanatic. > >mike >-- I think you may have the facts a little messed up here. The Video Toaster is a video production device, not a renderer. It is designed to give you near commercial quality transition effects and some limited graphics (titling, etc). Transition effects include: - fade from one video signal to another - video signal in flying window - slide image in from the side. - chroma keying of one signal over another - etc. Basically, the device allows you to combine video signals in a neat way, to create some of the snazzy scene transitions they have in commerical newscasts and shows like "Entertainment Tonight". In the version of the toaster I have seen (which was demonstrated to our company), there were no significant rendering functions. This means you cannot create anything even resembling the "lifesaver commercial" with the toaster - it is intended for an entirely different purpose. The toaster could be used to take existing video of the lifesavers and combine segments in interesting ways, but could not produce the graphics themselves. To compare it to Pixar or SGI products is like comparing Apples and screwdrivers. Eric -- ========================================================================== Eric Mitchell | "We're Screwed!!!" Ph. 604-278-3411 Fax. 604-278-2936 | email !uunet!van-bc!mdavcr!ewm | - Spaced Invaders. or ewm%mda.ca@wimsey.bc.ca | or ewm@mda.ca | ==========================================================================
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) (04/25/91)
In article <1195@mdavcr.UUCP> ewm@mdavcr.UUCP (Eric W. Mitchell) writes: >In article <1991Apr23.031929.16324@cs.dal.ca> graham@ug.cs.dal.ca (Michael Graham) writes: >> Luckily I'm a Mac owner. An Amiga owner would laugh his head off at this >>idea. Do you have any idea of what the toaster can do? If not try and catch >>Tod Rundgren's latest video. It *easily* rivals what I have seen from Pixar >>and SGI. It could easily do the Lifesaver ad. >>mike > >I think you may have the facts a little messed up here. The Video Toaster >is a video production device, not a renderer. It is designed to give you >near commercial quality transition effects and some limited graphics (titling, >etc). Not quite. The toaster, both the $1600 Amiga version and the proposed $4000 Mac version, includes A) Transition effects master program B) Character generator C) Lightwave, the 3-D Modeler/Renderer/Animator (truly *amazing*) D) ToasterPaint, a 24-bit paint program (much like Digi-Paint 3.0, if you've ever seen it) E) ChromaFX, a color tweaker/special effects program Lightwave is not a true renderer, granted (it uses Phong shading to achieve shadowed effects), but the output is terrific, and it is *fast*. The animation capabilities and output is quite up to par with what Pixar has been putting out. Indeed, check out Todd Rundgren's video. It was done *entirely* with the Video Toaster, from start to finish. >In the version of the toaster I have seen (which was demonstrated to our >company), there were no significant rendering functions. This means >you cannot create anything even resembling the "lifesaver commercial" with >the toaster - it is intended for an entirely different purpose. > >The toaster could be used to take existing video of the lifesavers and >combine segments in interesting ways, but could not produce the graphics >themselves. To compare it to Pixar or SGI products is like comparing >Apples and screwdrivers. Lightwave is actually the most interesting part of the package. I cannot understand why it was not demonstrated to you, as it is an integral part of the Toaster. >Eric Mitchell | "We're Screwed!!!" Peace, Dave Hopper | /// Anthro Creep | Academic Info Resources, Stanford |__ /// . . | Macincrap/UNIX Consultant bard@jessica. |\\\/// Ia! Ia! | -- Just remember: love is life, and Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Shub-Niggurath! | hate is living death. :Black Sabbath
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (04/26/91)
In-Reply-To: message from dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu You have got to be joking! New Tek is making no plans what-so-ever to offer the Video Toaster on ANY other platform...both Apple and IBM waived money in front of their faces, but they refuse to do it. For one thing, interfacing the hardware would be abit of a pain because they would have to build additional hardware that gave the correct NTSC compatible signals to the board. The software is written specifically for the Amiga, and it uses the Amiga's built in hardware for its display. It wouldn't be "impossible" to port it over, but they would have to do ALOT of extra work. What HAS been talked about, by New Tek, is the release of a standalone Toaster box for about $1000. But this more than likely will be just a switcher/DVE...no paint...no 3D. All of these would require an Amiga CPU of some kind. And while it wouldn't bee too difficult for them to purchase Amiga motherboards for inclusion in their own box, it would cost ALOT more than $1000 to do so! This standalone box wouldn't be for interfacing to any particular computer though. I'm sure if they include a serial port on it, someone will write some software to have it Mac controlled, or clone controlled. But it still wouldn't be like having the real thing, with all the apps intact. And it sure as Hell woudn't be like a Toaster equipped A2000 sporting one of GVP's new 50MHz boards with 32MB of RAM...not to mention the AmiLink/VT edit controller software that gives you full control over the Toaster's DVEs in an edit decision list. Sorry, but New Tek's not going to make it THAT easy on Macfolk :) Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810 INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ // | * All opinions expressed herein | HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (04/26/91)
In-Reply-To: message from graham@ug.cs.dal.ca And if you aren't aware, Tod Rundgren is a Mac-head as well. In fact, he was wearing a Mac sweatshirt in the Amiga World article about him. But, the real point is, to make his video (which made history) he used a Toaster and TEN A2500s. It was a total of about 7200 or so LightWave 3D frames. I too was very impressed. There was nothing amateurish about it, in concept or in execution. What amazed me even further was that he did it all by himself...modelling, etc...EVERYTHING. It's a wonderful product...our Holy Grail if you will...just as PageMaker is yours (I'll stick with Pro Page v2.0 thank you very much). Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810 INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ // | * All opinions expressed herein | HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
rblewitt@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Richard Blewitt) (04/26/91)
In article <1195@mdavcr.UUCP> ewm@mdavcr.UUCP (Eric W. Mitchell) writes: >I think you may have the facts a little messed up here. The Video Toaster >is a video production device, not a renderer. It is designed to give you >near commercial quality transition effects and some limited graphics (titling, >etc). [stuff about the Toaster's abilities deleted] Yes and no. The hardware part of the Toaster handles the video, with the effects defined and controled by the controlling part of the software package. Included with the toaster is a 24 bit paint program, and Lightwave 3D. Lightwave 3D is a fantastic 3D modeler/renderer which allows you to design a 3D animation, and render it, with full controll of the lighting, timing, etc. To play the animation, a single frame recorder is needed. Think about it this way, there are several 3D animation programs on the Mac that go for >$2000, so an extra $2000 for the Amiga with a Toaster is a real steal :) Rick
jeremym@chopin.udel.edu (Jeremy A Moskowitz) (04/26/91)
In article <8820@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from graham@ug.cs.dal.ca > > >And if you aren't aware, Tod Rundgren is a Mac-head as well. In fact, he >was wearing a Mac sweatshirt in the Amiga World article about him. This is true... Sad.. but true :-) ...c'mon - smile... >But, the real point is, to make his video (which made history) he used a >Toaster and TEN A2500s. It was a total of about 7200 or so LightWave 3D >frames. Whoops! Sorry - according to the article (I think) it was 10 toasters and 5 2500's... >I too was very impressed. There was nothing amateurish about it, in >concept or in execution. What amazed me even further was that he did it >all by himself...modelling, etc...EVERYTHING. I'm starting to hate Rundgren - think about this guy - a Rock-a-maniac who's a Mac Dude - using Amiga Products... where do the paradox's end!!??? >It's a wonderful product...our Holy Grail if you will...just as PageMaker >is yours (I'll stick with Pro Page v2.0 thank you very much). I'll stick with Excellence!2.0 - thank you.. (which I bought used today for $40) >Sean > INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ Monitor of comp.sys.amiga.emulations -jeremy -- E Pluribus // Contacts: jeremym@brahms.udel.edu or jeremym@chopin.udel.edu or Unix // jeremym@freezer.acs.udel.edu -amiga clasic 2000- \\ // --->Monitor of comp.sys.amiga.emulations<--- \X/ 2001 Dalmations - My stars, its full of dogs...
brandonl@gold.gvg.tek.com (Brandon Lovested) (04/26/91)
In article <1991Apr23.185910.1826@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > Basically, I think they are taking the IBM route. It is >AMAZING what has been done with such a miserable OS and CPU. >Absolutely astounding. It is *not* amazing, nor astounding. In fact, it is abyssmal. It is antiquated, and requires huge efforts to get so much information across such a little bus. PC-based "video systems" leave a lot to be desired, DVI included. The VideoToaster is an Amiga, and though one could foresee yet-another-computer interfacing with it, one would have to question its value. Data transfer, yes, direct control, why? ============================================================================== BRANDON G. LOVESTED ::::=:::==::===:==== FOR EVERY VISION, Software Design Engineer ::::=:::==::===:==== THERE IS AN Grass Valley Group ::::=:::==::===:==== EQUAL AND OPPOSITE brandonl@gold.gvg.tek.com ::::=:::==::===:==== REVISION. ==============================================================================
chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) (04/27/91)
ewm@mdavcr.UUCP (Eric W. Mitchell) writes: >I think you may have the facts a little messed up here. The Video Toaster >is a video production device, not a renderer. It is designed to give you >near commercial quality transition effects and some limited graphics (titling, >etc). > >Transition effects include: > > - fade from one video signal to another > - video signal in flying window > - slide image in from the side. > - chroma keying of one signal over another > - etc. > >Basically, the device allows you to combine video signals in a neat way, to >create some of the snazzy scene transitions they have in commerical >newscasts and shows like "Entertainment Tonight". > >In the version of the toaster I have seen (which was demonstrated to our >company), there were no significant rendering functions. This means >you cannot create anything even resembling the "lifesaver commercial" with >the toaster - it is intended for an entirely different purpose. > >The toaster could be used to take existing video of the lifesavers and >combine segments in interesting ways, but could not produce the graphics >themselves. To compare it to Pixar or SGI products is like comparing >Apples and screwdrivers. > No, The toaster includes Lightwave 3d, which is a fully capable 3d object modeling and rendering program. it also includes Toaster Paint, a 24 bit paint program. Lightwave is designed to create individual frames of an animation and render each one in between. Lightwave comes free with the toaster, so does toaster paint. also, the toaster doesn't currently do chroma keying, just luminance keying, but chroma keying is planned for a future upgrade. .--------------------------------------------------------------------------. | UUCP: {amdahl!tcnet, crash}!orbit!pnet51!chucks | "I know he's come back | | ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!chucks@nosc.mil | from the dead, but do | | INET: chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org | you really think he's | |-------------------------------------------------| moved back in?" | | Amiga programmer at large, employment options | Lou Diamond Philips in | | welcome, inquire within. | "The First Power". | `--------------------------------------------------------------------------'
dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (04/28/91)
In article <1195@mdavcr.UUCP> ewm@mdavcr.UUCP (Eric W. Mitchell) writes: >In article <1991Apr23.031929.16324@cs.dal.ca> graham@ug.cs.dal.ca (Michael Graham) writes: >>In article <5967@pbhyb.PacBell.COM> rkmossm@PacBell.COM (Richard Mossman) writes: >>> >>>What I would really like to see is someone come out with a direct connect >>>Mac device that does Toaster-level stuff with a built in NTSC conversion >> >> Luckily I'm a Mac owner. An Amiga owner would laugh his head off at this >>idea. Do you have any idea of what the toaster can do? If not try and catch >>Tod Rundgren's latest video. It *easily* rivals what I have seen from Pixar >>and SGI. It could easily do the Lifesaver ad. >> I don't have all the specs on this product, but similar Mac boards look like >>a JOKE when compared with the toaster. > >I think you may have the facts a little messed up here. The Video Toaster >is a video production device, not a renderer. It is designed to give you >near commercial quality transition effects and some limited graphics (titling, >etc). > >Basically, the device allows you to combine video signals in a neat way, to >create some of the snazzy scene transitions they have in commerical >newscasts and shows like "Entertainment Tonight". > >The toaster could be used to take existing video of the lifesavers and >combine segments in interesting ways, but could not produce the graphics >themselves. To compare it to Pixar or SGI products is like comparing >Apples and screwdrivers. > Have you ever heard of Toaster Paint or Lightwave 3D? They are two programs included with the Video Toaster. One is a paint program, and the other is for 3D renderings, although it does lack one feature in the 3D modeling programs. It will do ray-tracing, but it 'cheats' on the ray tracing in order to speed up the process (and it still does some impressive things). It cannot do refractions. As for your comparison of Apples and screwdrivers, I have both and use the screwdrivers more often :). -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN Tomas Arce Any students from SUNY Oswego? Please let me know! :) Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.
maxc1158@ucselx.sdsu.edu (Greg Penetrante) (04/28/91)
In article <2236@gold.gvg.tek.com> brandonl@gold.gvg.tek.com (Brandon Lovested) writes: > >It is *not* amazing, nor astounding. In fact, it is abyssmal. It is >antiquated, and requires huge efforts to get so much information across >such a little bus. PC-based "video systems" leave a lot to be desired, >DVI included. > >The VideoToaster is an Amiga, and though one could foresee yet-another-computer >interfacing with it, one would have to question its value. Data transfer, yes, >direct control, why? > Amen to that! Despite that many people hail the Toaster as the Next Best Thing Since Sliced Bread, it does have significant limitations for commercial and broadcast users. I know, I know, that NuTek never really claimed that the Toaster could replace say, a Pinnacle 2010 or Kaleidoscope or even a Kadenza. BUT: (and this is a big butt with cheeks) I know of many fellow production company owners who have bought the Toaster instead of scraping more dough together to buy more capable systems... and they have been burned. The current trend in broadcast video production is towards COMPONENT and DIGITAL video signals and processing. Component video simply provides for a better picture over multiple generations than composite signals; same with digital video. Perhaps, if NuTek would release a COMPONENT or even DIGITAL version of their Toaster, more members of the broadcast community would embrace it. I may get flak for this, but I must say it: NuTek should be more explicit on the Toaster's capabilities AND limitations. Of course, purchasing a piece of gear that is touted to replace or accomplish what existing DVE's do is tempting; but finding out that you CANNOT integrate this device into your existing Betacam-SP, M-II or even S-VHS component system -- is flushing money down the toilet. Okay, okay, I know responsible managers would do their jobs and inquire more deeply about the Toaster before making a final purchase decision; BUT, how many NON-fortune-1000 companies and small businesses do that?
judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) (04/28/91)
> As for your comparison of Apples and screwdrivers, I have both and use the > screwdrivers more often :). > > > -- > David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN Tomas Arce > Any students from SUNY Oswego? Please let me know! :) > > Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia. Would that be a Phillips or a flat blade? No, but seriously, the other guy DOES have HIS facts messed up. The animations done with the Toaster and included software are quite impressive. It is true thatit isn't real ray-tracing, however, in the interest of speed, it's a goodtradeoff. I suppose that if you had to have real ray-tracing, you could input fromanother source. Look at the NewTek Toaster demo sometime - it was all done on a Toaster and toaster software - if those aren't graphics, then it's back to infocom gamnes for me. rory
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (04/29/91)
In-Reply-To: message from es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu Information can already be obtained from New Tek on how to access the framebuffers, etc. It's always been possible to do through ARexx. The trick is...none of this will really help out the Mac users a bit. Any improvements will be made to software that runs on the Amiga. Whether a Mac user is working with the Toaster on an Amiga or on NewTek's standalone unit (there is no difference, except in name), they will still have to work with an Amiga. Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810 INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ // | * All opinions expressed herein | HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (04/29/91)
In-Reply-To: message from chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org Right...and anyone who doesn't think that LightWave is capable of taking on what's being done with Pixar and SGI products needs to check out Tod Rundgren's "Change Myself" video. Watch this, and then consider that he did it all on his own, in only a few months time. Imagine what a full staff of animators could do with the software! Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810 INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ // | * All opinions expressed herein | HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (04/29/91)
In-Reply-To: message from bard@jessica.stanford.edu
LightWave 3D IS a true renderer (how do you fake this???). It is not a
raytracer, which is only one method of rendering an image.
It does, however, raytrace its shadows...but only its shadows. To add
realism to LightWave renderings you use mapping techniques, including:
image, bump, reflection, environment.
Also...there is no proposed $4000 Mac version. There will be a standalone
box that you will be able to buy under the New Tek label, but it will be an
Amiga/Toaster bundle. The Mac (or IBM clone for that matter) can send its
video to one of the Toaster's inputs (providing it's been converted to
NTSC), and can possibly send commands for effects, etc. through the RS232
port, or a possible LAN port and communicate through ARexx.
But there would be no difference between using an "Amiga" Amiga, and a
"New Tek Video Computer" Amiga. They're both Amigas...the only difference
is in the name. What is in a name...
And I quote from the May 1991 issue of Mac World magazine, page 107, bottom
left paragraph, 3rd sentence:
Though the Video Toaster requires an Amiga 2000 or 2500, NewTek
is promoting a Toaster-Amiga combination as a Macintosh peripheral
that can be connected to a Mac with an RGB-to-NTSC encoder like
RasterOps' Video Expander board...NewTek is adding the ability to
read and write Macintosh bitmaps, some 3-D formats, and PostScript
files so they can be animated or used as overlays.
What NewTek is proposing is what any Mac user can do right now. All they
have to do is go down to an Amiga dealer, plunk down their cash for an
Amiga and Toaster, and there they are. The software upgrade will just be
there to benefit Amiga users, though it will make life easier for Macfolk
who own an Amiga to have access to the Toaster.
You can either wait for NewTek's VAR box, or you can get you an Amiga right
now. The end effect will be the same no matter which route you take. No
matter what, you're going to have an Amiga. No matter what, you'll need to
learn at least some of AmigaDOS.
You can either wait for NewTek...or get some work done NOW!
Sean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham
ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810
INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________
// | * All opinions expressed herein |
HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (04/29/91)
In article <16987@chopin.udel.edu> jeremym@chopin.udel.edu (Jeremy A Moskowitz) writes: >In article <8820@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >>In-Reply-To: message from graham@ug.cs.dal.ca >> >> >>And if you aren't aware, Tod Rundgren is a Mac-head as well. In fact, he >>was wearing a Mac sweatshirt in the Amiga World article about him. > >This is true... Sad.. but true :-) ...c'mon - smile... > I have a Mac drinking cup; hey, it was free! >>But, the real point is, to make his video (which made history) he used a >>Toaster and TEN A2500s. It was a total of about 7200 or so LightWave 3D >>frames. > >Whoops! Sorry - according to the article (I think) it was 10 toasters >and 5 2500's... > 10 Amigas. Look at the artricle again. To his left you will see 5 Amigas stacked up, and directly in front of hime you will see the BACK of another stack of five Amigas. >>I too was very impressed. There was nothing amateurish about it, in >>concept or in execution. What amazed me even further was that he did it >>all by himself...modelling, etc...EVERYTHING. > >I'm starting to hate Rundgren - think about this guy - a Rock-a-maniac >who's a Mac Dude - using Amiga Products... where do the paradox's end!!??? > > >>It's a wonderful product...our Holy Grail if you will...just as PageMaker >>is yours (I'll stick with Pro Page v2.0 thank you very much). > >I'll stick with Excellence!2.0 - thank you.. (which I bought used today for $40) > Have yo guys seen Saxon Publisher yet? Blows everything away! >>Sean >> INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ > > >Monitor of comp.sys.amiga.emulations > -jeremy > Monitor of comp.sys.amiga.toaster -david > >-- >E Pluribus // Contacts: jeremym@brahms.udel.edu or jeremym@chopin.udel.edu or > Unix // jeremym@freezer.acs.udel.edu -amiga clasic 2000- > \\ // --->Monitor of comp.sys.amiga.emulations<--- > \X/ 2001 Dalmations - My stars, its full of dogs... -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN Tomas Arce Any students from SUNY Oswego? Please let me know! :) Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.
ddev@wam.umd.edu (Don DeVoe) (04/30/91)
In article <1991Apr29.160619.5046@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: >> >>This is true... Sad.. but true :-) ...c'mon - smile... >>>But, the real point is, to make his video (which made history) he used a >>>Toaster and TEN A2500s. It was a total of about 7200 or so LightWave 3D >>>frames. >> >>Whoops! Sorry - according to the article (I think) it was 10 toasters >>and 5 2500's... > > 10 Amigas. Look at the artricle again. To his left you will see 5 Amigas >stacked up, and directly in front of hime you will see the BACK of another >stack of five Amigas. > >>I'm starting to hate Rundgren - think about this guy - a Rock-a-maniac >>who's a Mac Dude - using Amiga Products... where do the paradox's end!!??? >> >>>It's a wonderful product...our Holy Grail if you will...just as PageMaker >>>is yours (I'll stick with Pro Page v2.0 thank you very much). >> >>I'll stick with Excellence!2.0 - thank you.. (which I bought used today for $40) > > Have yo guys seen Saxon Publisher yet? Blows everything away! > >>Monitor of comp.sys.amiga.emulations >> -jeremy > >Monitor of comp.sys.amiga.toaster > -david > David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN Tomas Arce > Any students from SUNY Oswego? Please let me know! :) > > Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia. This thread seems to be straying from anything of interest to mac owners... please either keep the content pertinent, or take the discussion over to comp.sys.amiga.advocacy or one of the other (20 or so at last count) amiga groups, ok? -- Don DeVoe ddev@wam.umd.edu
ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) (04/30/91)
In article <1991Apr28.084754.29484@ucselx.sdsu.edu> maxc1158@ucselx.sdsu.edu (Greg Penetrante) writes: > >I may get flak for this, but I must say it: NuTek should be more explicit on >the Toaster's capabilities AND limitations. Of course, purchasing a piece of >gear that is touted to replace or accomplish what existing DVE's do is tempting; >but finding out that you CANNOT integrate this device into your existing >Betacam-SP, M-II or even S-VHS component system -- is flushing money down the >toilet. > >Okay, okay, I know responsible managers would do their jobs and inquire more >deeply about the Toaster before making a final purchase decision; BUT, how >many NON-fortune-1000 companies and small businesses do that? > And you expect NewTek to counsel the purchasers when they think they may be making a wrong purchase?! "I'm sorry, but I don't think you should buy our product." -- ||| Ed Krimen [ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu or al661@cleveland.freenet.edu] ||| Video Production Major, California State University, Chico / | \ SysOp, Fuji BBS: 916-894-1261
dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) (05/01/91)
In article <1991Apr29.183148.15463@ecst.csuchico.edu> ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) writes: >And you expect NewTek to counsel the purchasers when they think they may >be making a wrong purchase?! "I'm sorry, but I don't think you should buy our >product." If appropriate, yes. -- Dave Matuszek (dave@prc.unisys.com) I don't speak for my employer. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | When I was young, my family bought a color TV. Our neigbors, who | | were poorer, had only a black-and-white set. They bought a piece of | | cellophane, red on top, yellow in the middle, and blue on the bottom, | | and taped it over their screen, so they could claim that they had a | | color TV, too. | | Now there's Windows 3.0. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (05/01/91)
In-Reply-To: message from maxc1158@ucselx.sdsu.edu Nowhere on any of NewTek's literature does it say that the Toaster would directly interface to any of the component or digital formats. Right on the back of every brochure is a nice rundown of it's interfaces and other specs. If some idiot bought the CURRENT version of the Toaster thinking it had such capabilities, then he deserved to get burnt. I'm sure NewTek is working on a component version of the Toaster, this only makes sense. They're not resting on their laurels and just watching the money roll in :) Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810 INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ // | * All opinions expressed herein | HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (05/02/91)
In-Reply-To: message from dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu I've seen Saxon, and if I weren't already hooked on Pro Page, I might consider it. The style tagging, importation of IFF24, etc. really had Gold Disk scrambling. But I don't like Saxon's interface. Heh, I'd like to see that guy pull in an IFF24 into Exellence!2.0... Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810 INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ // | * All opinions expressed herein | HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (05/02/91)
In article <8914@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from bard@jessica.stanford.edu > >Also...there is no proposed $4000 Mac version. There will be a standalone >box that you will be able to buy under the New Tek label, but it will be an >Amiga/Toaster bundle. The Mac (or IBM clone for that matter) can send its >video to one of the Toaster's inputs (providing it's been converted to >NTSC), and can possibly send commands for effects, etc. through the RS232 >port, or a possible LAN port and communicate through ARexx. > >But there would be no difference between using an "Amiga" Amiga, and a >"New Tek Video Computer" Amiga. They're both Amigas...the only difference >is in the name. What is in a name... > >And I quote from the May 1991 issue of Mac World magazine, page 107, bottom >left paragraph, 3rd sentence: > > Though the Video Toaster requires an Amiga 2000 or 2500, NewTek > is promoting a Toaster-Amiga combination as a Macintosh peripheral > that can be connected to a Mac with an RGB-to-NTSC encoder like > RasterOps' Video Expander board...NewTek is adding the ability to > read and write Macintosh bitmaps, some 3-D formats, and PostScript > files so they can be animated or used as overlays. > >What NewTek is proposing is what any Mac user can do right now. All they >have to do is go down to an Amiga dealer, plunk down their cash for an >Amiga and Toaster, and there they are. The software upgrade will just be >there to benefit Amiga users, though it will make life easier for Macfolk >who own an Amiga to have access to the Toaster. > Actually, mac users could easily by the Toaster or Amiga set-up along with a Mac emulator, such as Amax II+, and run the mac software right off of the Toaster set-up. > >You can either wait for NewTek...or get some work done NOW! > >Sean > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham > ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810 > INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ > // | * All opinions expressed herein | > HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN Tomas Arce Any students from SUNY Oswego? Please let me know! :) Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (05/05/91)
In-Reply-To: message from dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu The only problem with with getting the "Trojan Horse" and installing AMAX II+ (one, it's not going to be available 'till June) is that while under the "posession" of AMAX, you have no access to the Toaster. It would be an either/or situation. Now, they could easily just live with it, and learn to live (and love) working with the Amiga, er, "Trojan Horse," but I doubt that's what they had in mind. Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810 INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ // | * All opinions expressed herein | HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (05/07/91)
In article <17416@burdvax.PRC.Unisys.COM> dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) writes: >In article <1991Apr29.183148.15463@ecst.csuchico.edu> ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) writes: > >>And you expect NewTek to counsel the purchasers when they think they may >>be making a wrong purchase?! "I'm sorry, but I don't think you should buy our >>product." > >If appropriate, yes. > The Video Toaster is an ingenious product. Do you also complain when people buy VCR's and don't get digital recordings? Where you complaining when video cameras were released that couldn't handle bright light sources, or white clothing? All of these are available with $100,000 machines, but not with $500 machines. You are getting a $1500 hardware product that does more than anything in its price range, and can handle professional television broadcasting. Don't expect HBO or CNN to suddenly go Video Toaster. Expect the local cable real estate channel or the TV guide or the guy who video tapes weddings to use it. I have seen this computer used by many cable companies, and in fact I am associated with some productions. If you sat and watched the broadcasts, you would not know that it was done with a Video Toaster or DCTV or anything else in its class. They are very professional, and they do an excellent job for the price paid. It no longer takes hundreds of thousands of dollars to make music videos, tutorial tapes, documentaries, closed circuit broadcasting, etc. The Video Toaster makes TV broadcasting available to the common man, and the studio on a budget. > >-- Dave Matuszek (dave@prc.unisys.com) I don't speak for my employer. -- -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN "If you think that we're here for the money, we could live without it. But the world isn't too good here, and it wasn't always like that." Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.
dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (05/10/91)
In article <9048@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu > >The only problem with with getting the "Trojan Horse" and installing AMAX >II+ (one, it's not going to be available 'till June) is that while under >the "posession" of AMAX, you have no access to the Toaster. Do you mean as a hardware restriction from AMAX or the Toaster? I would think that Mac programmers would be eager to code for the Toaster directly from AMAX....theoretically, all of the custom chips are still there, and I wouldn't be surprised if AMAX relies on the custom chips too. > >It would be an either/or situation. > >Now, they could easily just live with it, and learn to live (and love) >working with the Amiga, er, "Trojan Horse," but I doubt that's what they >had in mind. > >Sean > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham > ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810 > INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ > // | * All opinions expressed herein | > HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN "If you think that we're here for the money, we could live without it. But the world isn't too good here, and it wasn't always like that." Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (05/20/91)
In-Reply-To: message from dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu While under the control of AMAX, you would have no access to the Toaster. The Toaster's software requires AmigaDOS. Under AMAX you no longer have any ties to AmigaDOS, even though makes use of the custom chips to speed up operations such as screen updates, etc. I 'spose they could run AMAX on an A500, and control a Toaster equipped A2x00, or the "Trojan Horse." But my question would be, is it worth it? They should just learn to run the Amiga software to use the Toaster...it'll make life easier on them. Now, if Readysoft chucked the Apple ROMs and went with the new clone ROMs, then AMAX (or should I say SuperAMAX) could multitask, and run the MAC as a subtask under AmigaDOS...then you could do some interaction between environments on the same machine. The trick is, then developers would have to program for the AMAX environment, which would be very interesting. Or MAYBE, Commodore will liscense the Amiga's custom chips, and some clever Mac developer will write an Amiga emulator, complete with a videoslot so that the Toaster could be plugged in....R I G H T~r :) Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810 INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ // | * All opinions expressed herein | HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) (05/21/91)
Newtek is selling (I think) a Toaster for the Mac. It includes the
toaster itself installed in an Amiga, and costs about $3500. I guess
they must include some pre-setup software that lets the Mac connect
to the Amiga as an external terminal, or something, and send commands
to the toaster that way. Think of te Amiga as a fancy host adapter,
and you've got the idea.
leees1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (05/22/91)
In article <91141.112512UH2@psuvm.psu.edu> UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) writes: >Newtek is selling (I think) a Toaster for the Mac. It includes the >toaster itself installed in an Amiga, and costs about $3500. I guess >they must include some pre-setup software that lets the Mac connect >to the Amiga as an external terminal, or something, and send commands >to the toaster that way. Think of te Amiga as a fancy host adapter, >and you've got the idea. > > lee I seem to remember something like the Toaster can accept Mac video input and Mac format graphics files. Now the world has gone to bed, Now I lay me down to sleep, Darkness won't engulf my head, Try to count electric sheep, I can see by infrared, Sweet dream wishes you can keep, How I hate the night. How I hate the night. -- Marvin
nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) (05/22/91)
In article <91141.112512UH2@psuvm.psu.edu> UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) writes: >Think of te Amiga as a fancy host adapter, and you've got the idea. > > lee Boy... well for the money we're used to forking out for Mac hardware, that is probably a reasonalble way of looking at it. Neal