drewster@orion.oac.uci.edu (Andrew T. Laurence) (05/15/91)
I went to my friendly neighborhood Apple dealer today to play with sys 7. I was working on an LC w/ 12" in 256 mode, with 32bit addressing turned off and virtual memory turned off. As in my subject line, it seemed unbearable slow. How much faster would it have been on a IIsi w/ 32 and/or virtual turned on? Appreciably? Alas, they'd only loaded 7 onto the LC, so I wasn't able to test this out for myself. Please email back. Thanks, Andrew Laurence drewster@orion.oac.uci.edu
norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Norton Chia) (05/15/91)
drewster@orion.oac.uci.edu (Andrew T. Laurence) writes: >I went to my friendly neighborhood Apple dealer today to play with sys 7. >I was working on an LC w/ 12" in 256 mode, with 32bit addressing turned off >and virtual memory turned off. As in my subject line, it seemed unbearable >slow. >How much faster would it have been on a IIsi w/ 32 and/or virtual turned on? >Appreciably? >Alas, they'd only loaded 7 onto the LC, so I wasn't able to test this out >for myself. Obviously you haven't tried it on a Classic. My experiences with System 7 on the LC with 4 megs certainly seems "bearable". My IIci doesn't look to bad either, altho' I do detect a slight degradation in response. Maybe it's my scepticism that something so good can't also have good performance :) >Please email back. >Thanks, >Andrew Laurence >drewster@orion.oac.uci.edu -- <<<< My employers ignore me, I'm on my own when I speak out in public :^( >>>> < Norton Chia | Mail me on norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU APPLELINK:AUST0240 > < Micro Support | "There are only 3 types of people in the world: > < Uni of Sydney | Those who can count, and those who can't" >
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach, only here for the beer) (05/16/91)
dth@reef.cis.ufl.edu (David Hightower) writes: >The balloon help is a real pain (although it >was neat to see it working with Excel 3.0), Turn it off, then. >and why in the world would I >want labels? "red is hot, blue is cool, purple is personal"; this has >got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen! If you want different labels, go into "Control Panels/Labels" and change them. If you don't want them at all, go into "Control Panels/Views" and tell the finder to stop displaying them. It's all configurable. -- Chuq Von Rospach >=< chuq@apple.com >=< GEnie:CHUQ or MAC.BIGOT >=< ALink:CHUQ SFWA Nebula Awards Reports Editor =+= Editor, OtherRealms Book Reviewer, Amazing Stories ---@--- #include <standard/disclaimer.h> Recommended: ORION IN THE DYING TIME Ben Bova (Tor, Aug, ***-); SACRED VISIONS Greeley&Cassutt (Tor, Aug, ****+); MEN AT WORK George Will (****); XENOCIDE Orson Scott Card (August, ****)
oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu (Doc O'Leary) (05/16/91)
In article <28548@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> dth@reef.cis.ufl.edu (David Hightower) writes, among other things: >I installed 7.0 on my ci last night (8MB RAM, 80 HD) and there *is* a >noticeable degradation of system speed. When redrawing the finder >screen, you can see each individual folder being redrawn. This is funny. While I see posts complaining about the speed of System 7 on the LC and IIci, I'm sitting at my SE still running 7b4 and have noticed only minimals speed loss (yeah, I know, 9" B&W). I was considering an upgrade when I had first heard that System 7 was slow. Now that Apple has lowered the upgrade prices and I've worked with System 7 for a few months, I'm still only considering it. >I'm not impressed with 7.0. It does have some nice >features--customizing icons, aliases, etc--but overall the things that >it provides I don't need. The balloon help is a real pain (although it >was neat to see it working with Excel 3.0), and why in the world would I >want labels? "red is hot, blue is cool, purple is personal"; this has >got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen! I don't use balloon help or labels either. I haven't found a use for them yet, but that doesn't mean that many people don't need those features now or that I will never find them useful in the future. BTW, there is a Labels control panel where you can change the "hot, cool, project x" text. I don't know, but I'd imagine you can change the colors as well. >7.0 seems to be best suited for networks; it allows subscribing and >sharing across the network. For the single user, though, until more >applications take advantage of it, I can see no real use for it. Whoa! Let me get this straight . . . you've had System 7 installed for AN ENTIRE DAY and you're making this kind of blanket statement!?!? Geez, get back to us once you've *used* it for awhile. >I'm going back to 6.0.5. Oh, I see. Have fun. Well, have as much fun as you can . . . --------- Doc P.S.: There's more "cool" in System 7 than Windows will ever have. ********************** Signature Block : Version 2.5 ********************* * | OK, one last time . . . This is * * "Was it love, or was it the idea | an egg . . . This is an egg in a * * of being in love?" -- PF | frying pan . . . Any questions? * * (BTW, which one *is* Pink?) | * * | --->oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu<--- * ****************** Copyright (c) 1991 by Doc O'Leary ********************
jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) (05/16/91)
For those of you with System 7.0 (my Mac is being sent in for repairs and the local dealerships don't have it, and my Mac is currently modemless), is the supposed slow down present only in the Finder or in applications as well? What operations seem to be affected (disk access, redraws, etc)? Jess Holle
hasses@prism.cs.orst.edu (Stephen Haase) (05/16/91)
In article <1991May15.234932.26604@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Jess M Holle) writes: >For those of you with System 7.0 (my Mac is being sent in for repairs and >the local dealerships don't have it, and my Mac is currently modemless), >is the supposed slow down present only in the Finder or in applications >as well? What operations seem to be affected (disk access, redraws, etc)? > >Jess Holle I've been running 7.0fc2 for a while and the only program that I noticed that had a sizeble decrease in speed was afterdark. In the finder, Afterdark slows down to about 5-10% of its normal speed(I have a IIci and Rose is unbearably slow!). Does anyone know of a fix in the works? Steve hasses@prism.cs.orst.edu
nerm@Apple.COM (Dean Yu) (05/16/91)
In article <1991May16.004634.4743@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> hasses@prism.cs.orst.edu (Stephen Haase) writes: >I've been running 7.0fc2 for a while and the only program that I noticed that had >a sizeble decrease in speed was afterdark. In the finder, Afterdark slows down >to about 5-10% of its normal speed(I have a IIci and Rose is unbearably slow!). >Does anyone know of a fix in the works? This is because there is a longer time between calls to _WaitNextEvent by the 7.0 Finder, thus time is relinquished for other tasks less frequently. -- Dean Yu Blue Meanie, Negative Ethnic Role Model, etc. Apple Computer, Inc. My opinions and so on and so forth...
pejacoby@mmm.serc.3m.com (Paul E. Jacoby) (05/16/91)
In article <28548@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> dth@reef.cis.ufl.edu (David Hightower) writes: >I installed 7.0 on my ci last night (8MB RAM, 80 HD) and there *is* a >noticeable degradation of system speed. When redrawing the finder >screen, you can see each individual folder being redrawn. > David, I found that free memory can have some SERIOUS effects on the speed of the Finder. I was playing 'stress-test' and opened a set of applications such that there was less than 100K of memory remaining. When toggling back to the Finder (via the application menu), there was a LARGE delay in the toggle itself, followed by the kind of 'one folder at a time' redraw that you have seen. Quitting a single application to free up more memory resulted in a huge speed increase. It looks like the Finder wants some amount of memory left available at all times (for best performance anyway). -- | Paul E. Jacoby, 3M Company | | | Maplewood, MN 55144-1000 | Parachuting? Why jump out of a | | => pejacoby@3m.com | perfectly good airplane? | | (612) 737-3211 | |
pekkala@convex.com (Rick Pekkala) (05/17/91)
what do you expect w/ just 2Mb?
--
Rick Pekkala, pekkala@convex.com, {sun,texsun,uunet}!convex!pekkala 214-497-4131
CONVEX Computer Corporation, 3000 Waterview Parkway, Richardson, TX 75080
"Any resemblance between the above views and those of my employer, my terminal,
or the view out my window are purely coincidental."norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Norton Chia) (05/17/91)
pejacoby@mmm.serc.3m.com (Paul E. Jacoby) writes: >David, I found that free memory can have some SERIOUS effects on the >speed of the Finder. I was playing 'stress-test' and opened a set of >applications such that there was less than 100K of memory remaining. >When toggling back to the Finder (via the application menu), there was a >LARGE delay in the toggle itself, followed by the kind of 'one folder at >a time' redraw that you have seen. >Quitting a single application to free up more memory resulted in a >huge speed increase. It looks like the Finder wants some amount of >memory left available at all times (for best performance anyway). Do you think colour, especially the default icons, folders, menu items etc have anything to do with it? I remember the days when I traded speed for nice colour icons. I wonder if things like labels, different view options etc has anything to do with it. Any thoughts? Cheers, -- // Norton Chia || I can be reached via e-mail --> norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU / / Micro Support || Yes, this is Australia calling. ////// AppleLink: AUST0240 / / Uni of Sydney || No, I haven't got anything to say but "Thanks", if I forgot //// When I'm talking half way around the world, my employers can't hear me ///
gsnow@pro-freedom.cts.com (Gary Snow - System Admin) (05/17/91)
In-Reply-To: message from nerm@Apple.COM | |This is because there is a longer time between calls to _WaitNextEvent by |the 7.0 Finder, thus time is relinquished for other tasks less frequently. Why was this done? I would think that giving Background tasks more time would be more perferable....as it is now (with system 6.0) they don't get enough. Gary --- UUCP: ogicse!clark!pro-freedom!gsnow | Pro-Freedom: 206/253-9389 ProLine: gsnow@pro-freedom | Vancouver, Wa ARPANet: crash!pro-freedom!gsnow@nosc.mil | Apple*Van InterNet: gsnow@pro-freedom.cts.com | Vancouver Apple Users Group
lex@philica.ica.philips.nl (Lex van Sonderen) (05/17/91)
In article <28548@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> dth@reef.cis.ufl.edu (David Hightower) writes: >screen, you can see each individual folder being redrawn. Did you check off 'Calculate folder sizes' in the 'Views' control panel? >was neat to see it working with Excel 3.0), and why in the world would I >want labels? "red is hot, blue is cool, purple is personal"; this has >got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen! Working with different people on one Mac, or on different tasks? Make a label called 'Mum' and let her set all her files to 'Mum'. Make a label called 'Urgent' and specify the files you want. You can view by Label so all files of Mum are grouped. This is a nice free-form organizing way supplementary to folders anmd aliases. Ever thought: "This file could be in my 'correspondence', the 'project X' or the 'drawings folder." ? Folders, Aliases and Labels give the user any organization method (s)he wants. Lex van Sonderen lex@ica.philips.nl
pejacoby@mmm.serc.3m.com (Paul E. Jacoby) (05/17/91)
In article <norton.674441027@extro> norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Norton Chia) writes: >pejacoby@mmm.serc.3m.com (Paul E. Jacoby) writes: > [discussion of low memory conditions slowing down the Finder 7.0] > >Do you think colour, especially the default icons, folders, menu items etc >have anything to do with it? I remember the days when I traded speed for >nice colour icons. I wonder if things like labels, different view options >etc has anything to do with it. Any thoughts? I am running a 13" color monitor on my SE/30 (RasterOps 264/30 -> Seiko CM1445C), and typically run in 8-bit mode. I have not run on just my SE/30 internal screen with 7.0, so I can't say how color is affecting things at this point. I _can_ tell you that toggling into 24-bit mode will make that low-memory crawl into a _glacial_ experience :-) -- | Paul E. Jacoby, 3M Company | | | Maplewood, MN 55144-1000 | Parachuting? Why jump out of a | | => pejacoby@3m.com | perfectly good airplane? | | (612) 737-3211 | |
Jim.Spencer@p510.f22.n282.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Spencer) (05/18/91)
David Hightower writes in a message to All DH> I'm not impressed with 7.0. It does have some nice features--customizing DH> icons, aliases, etc--but overall the things that it provides DH> I don't need. The balloon help is a real pain (although it was DH> neat to see it working with Excel 3.0), and why in the world DH> would I want labels? "red is hot, blue is cool, purple is personal"; DH> this has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen! You obviously haven't really found out what the "nice" features will do much less the things you find a "pain." Balloon help can be turned off (its there for new users and for reminders on applications you don't use so much) and the labels can be changed to anything you want them to be with the control panel. The color part of it is just an extra. The point is that you can label things as being "Jack's files" or "MegaProject Files." The key to this is that you can then list "By Label" from the view men u. Of course the primary things that System 7 does, besides cleaning up the System Folder which I think is a pretty significant event, are not obvious on the surface: better memory management, AppleEvents, Publish and Subscribe as well as low level IAC etc, personal file sharing, etc. The fact that from a superficial look, you aren't impressed actually is a gold star to Apple: they've managed to add all kinds of features and major improvements all without users having to start from scratch (compare with OS/2!) * Origin: White Mailer Test Point (1.0d6) (1:282/22.510)
Jim.Spencer@p510.f22.n282.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Spencer) (05/18/91)
Jess M Holle writes in a message to All JMH> For those of you with System 7.0 (my Mac is being sent in for JMH> repairs and the local dealerships don't have it, and my Mac is JMH> currently modemless), is the supposed slow down present only JMH> in the Finder or in applications as well? What operations seem JMH> to be affected (disk access, redraws, etc)? From what I've seen, the only difference between System 7 and earlier systems as far as speed goes is that because of the heavy use of color in the Finder, when running in 8 bit mode, its updates are a little slower as would be expected. If I go back to black & white in the Finder, things seem just as fast. Personally, the slight difference in speed doesn't bother me in the slightest. * Origin: White Mailer Test Point (1.0d6) (1:282/22.510)
starta@tosh.UUCP (John Starta) (05/18/91)
pejacoby@mmm.serc.3m.com (Paul E. Jacoby) writes: > David, I found that free memory can have some SERIOUS effects on the > speed of the Finder. I was playing 'stress-test' and opened a set of > applications such that there was less than 100K of memory remaining. > When toggling back to the Finder (via the application menu), there was a > LARGE delay in the toggle itself, followed by the kind of 'one folder at > a time' redraw that you have seen. > > Quitting a single application to free up more memory resulted in a > huge speed increase. It looks like the Finder wants some amount of > memory left available at all times (for best performance anyway). This is nothing out of the ordinary. Basically what is happening when memory gets low is it begins to "walk" more carefully so as not to cause problems with the other apps running. Do you blame it? Which do you work better in, a normal, comfortable office, or a closet? John -- John A. Starta Internet: tosh!starta@asuvax.eas.asu.edu Chief Technologist UUCP: ...ncar!noao!asuvax!tosh!starta Micro Orchard Co. AOL: AFA John; CompuServe: 71520,3556
nerm@Apple.COM (Dean Yu) (05/20/91)
In article <1991May17.061213.4554@clark.edu> gsnow@pro-freedom.cts.com (Gary Snow - System Admin) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from nerm@Apple.COM >| >|This is because there is a longer time between calls to _WaitNextEvent by >|the 7.0 Finder, thus time is relinquished for other tasks less frequently. > >Why was this done? I would think that giving Background tasks more time would >be more perferable....as it is now (with system 6.0) they don't get enough. > It's mostly because of the sheer amount of things the Finder is trying to do. We didn't intentionally decide to call _WaitNextEvent less often. -- Dean Yu Blue Meanie, Negativ Ethnic Role Model, etc. Apple Computer, Inc. My opinions and so on and so forth...
yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) (05/22/91)
In article <674629203.2@macgate.fidonet> Jim.Spencer@p510.f22.n282.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Spencer) writes: > Balloon help can be turned > off (its there for new users and for reminders on applications you > don't use so much) and the labels can be changed to anything you > want them to be with the control panel. OK, how do you get rid of the help icon in the menubar? I think this is what most people mean when they say "turn ballon help off". =Mike -- == Michael K. Yee <yee@osf.org> -+- OSF/Motif Team == Open Software Foundation - 11 Cambridge Center - Cambridge, MA 02142 == "Live simply, so that others may simply live."
george@swbatl.sbc.com (George Nincehelser 5-6544) (05/22/91)
In article <YEE.91May21143529@pmin27.osf.org> yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) writes: >In article <674629203.2@macgate.fidonet> Jim.Spencer@p510.f22.n282.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Spencer) writes: > OK, how do you get rid of the help icon in the menubar? I think > this is what most people mean when they say "turn ballon help off". Other than looks, is there really any reason to remove the help icon from the menu bar? I've noticed that the help icon goes away when the menu bar gets crowded (such as running Excel 3.0 and SuperClock! on an SE). All that aside, is there a sanctioned way to get help if the help icon goes away for some reason? -- / George David Nincehelser \ george@swbatl.sbc.com \ / / Southwestern Bell Telephone \ Phone: (314) 235-6544 \ / / / Advanced Technology Laboratory \ Fax: (314) 235-5797 \ / / / /\ 1010 Pine, St. Louis, MO 63101 \ de asini umbra disceptare \
mark@hsi86.hsi.com (Mark Sicignano) (05/23/91)
In article <YEE.91May21143529@pmin27.osf.org> yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) writes: > > OK, how do you get rid of the help icon in the menubar? I think > this is what most people mean when they say "turn ballon help off". > > =Mike > > I haven't tried to get rid of it, but couldn't you just remove it from the "System Extensions" folder ? (Or was it in one of the other folders...) -- Mark Sicignano ...!uunet!hsi!mark 3M Health Information Systems mark@hsi.com
rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) (05/24/91)
References:<674629203.2@macgate.fidonet> <YEE.91May21143529@pmin27.osf.org> <3664@hsi86.hsi.com> In article <YEE.91May21143529@pmin27.osf.org> yee@osf.org (Michael K. Yee) writes: > > OK, how do you get rid of the help icon in the menubar? I think > this is what most people mean when they say "turn ballon help off". Do you really need to get rid of it? It doesn't get in the way when balloon help is turned off. Even the little icon in the menu bar will go away, automatically, when an application has so many menus that there isn't room for the help menu. I can't think of any reason to eradicate it altogether unless the very icon offends your eye. (De gustibus non disputandum est.) And there's a reason to leave it. It is destined to become the place to look for all application help. Today, every app invents its own place to put the on-line help button or menu item: its own menu, a menu item in one of the application menus, a menu item in the Apple menu, a button in the About box. The system help menu gives all apps a standard place to put their own help menu items - not just balloon help - and you'll be seeing this more and more as System 7 aware apps and upgrades appear. ========================================================================== Rick Holzgrafe | {sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual}!apple!rmh Software Engineer | AppleLink HOLZGRAFE1 rmh@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. | "All opinions expressed are mine, and do 20525 Mariani Ave. MS: 3-PK | not necessarily represent those of my Cupertino, CA 95014 | employer, Apple Computer Inc."