kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) (06/08/91)
jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) writes: > Is this part of system 7.0? Does it mean the bucket (?) is getting full? >Sounds like someone's found Easy Access... ;-) A chance to get this off my mind: Why the hell does Apple think every user needs this junk (the 6.0.7 installer put brightness in a) a customized ][si install and b) a minimal install [if memory serves, but i _always_ have to clean unwanted/needed junk out of the system folder. It was DAL in 7.0] Does anyone know how to hack the installer scripts so the battery cdev is not installed on an si? &c. &c. And all those fonts--does _anyone_ ever use courier? (except hypercard) How about a -really- customizable install? -- ...kiran __________kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu________(812) 331-1710 From the corrections column in a July Fresno, CA _Bee_: "An item in Thursday's [issue] about the Massachusetts budget crisis made reference to new taxes that will help put Massachusetts 'back in the African-American.' The item should have said 'back in the black.'"
gasser@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Nathan Gasser) (06/09/91)
...kiran says: > >A chance to get this off my mind: > >Why the hell does Apple think every user needs this junk (the >6.0.7 installer put brightness in a) a customized ][si install and >b) a minimal install [if memory serves, but i _always_ have to >clean unwanted/needed junk out of the system folder. It was DAL in >7.0] > >Does anyone know how to hack the installer scripts so the battery cdev >is not installed on an si? &c. &c. > >And all those fonts--does _anyone_ ever use courier? (except hypercard) >How about a -really- customizable install? > >-- > ...kiran > __________kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu________(812) 331-1710 Oh boy. OK. What would it take to make you happy? Can't you accept the fact that you just purchased a totally excellent computer, slipped in the floppys, pressed "Install" and then needed to trash a few files? Ever set up and IBM? NeXT? How about that machine's 3-hour drive format time? eh? Is there really much difference between clicking "Hold the courier" and dragging courier to the trash about 4.2 minutes later? Actually, I've been freelancing to Apple to develop an installer that is keyed to your horoscope and can determine if you're the type of person to want to use Sticky Keys. Anyone ever used EasyAccess and CloseView? These two *free* utilities can really be useful at times, and I wouldn't have made use of that extra little bit of Apple engineering if the Installer hadn't placed them there. To sum up, don't have a com, man. The Mac is awesome, and the installer is great. If it doesn't fit you to perfection, deal with it. With steam, Nate. -- Nathan Gasser gasser@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) (06/09/91)
In article <kiran.676352458@copper> kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) writes: >A chance to get this off my mind: >Why the hell does Apple think every user needs this junk (the >6.0.7 installer put brightness in a) a customized ][si install and >b) a minimal install [if memory serves, but i _always_ have to >clean unwanted/needed junk out of the system folder. It was DAL in >7.0] Easy Access is not in a minimal install, at least not in the one I built (needed a floppy). All it gave me was what I needed. As for why it would go in a full install--that's probably to prevent somebody who needs it installing their system & then finding that they have to struggle to install Easy Access. It's much easier for you to trash it than for somebody who needs it to install it. -- /============================================================================\ | Francis Stracke | My opinions are my own. I don't steal them.| | Department of Mathematics |=============================================| | University of Chicago | Earth: Love it or leave it. | | francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu | | \============================================================================/
news@massey.ac.nz (USENET News System) (06/10/91)
In article <kiran.676352458@copper> kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) writes: >jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) writes: >> Is this part of system 7.0? Does it mean the bucket (?) is getting full? >>Sounds like someone's found Easy Access... ;-) >A chance to get this off my mind: >Why the hell does Apple think every user needs this junk (the >6.0.7 installer put brightness in a) a customized ][si install and >b) a minimal install [if memory serves, but i _always_ have to >clean unwanted/needed junk out of the system folder. It was DAL in >7.0] > >Does anyone know how to hack the installer scripts so the battery cdev >is not installed on an si? &c. &c. As I understand it, when you do an installation for a specific machine, the installer also puts in the minimum software to drive all Macintosh models. That's why you get the brightness cdev and other little goodies which only used in specific models. A possible reason for doing this is that if you installed on an external HD of one machine type and than took your HD to another machine type and you didn't have the minimum OS requirements for that machine, you wouldn't have a bootable HD. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allan Burton Phone +64 6 3569099 x8564, Fax +64 6 3505607 Macintosh Consultant, TimeZone GMT +12, Internet A.K.Burton@massey.ac.nz Computer Centre, Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand --------------------------------------------------------------------------
francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) (06/10/91)
In article <1991Jun9.233220.474@massey.ac.nz> news@massey.ac.nz (USENET News System) writes: >As I understand it, when you do an installation for a specific machine, the >installer also puts in the minimum software to drive all Macintosh models. >That's why you get the brightness cdev and other little goodies which only used >in specific models. A possible reason for doing this is that if you installed >on an external HD of one machine type and than took your HD to another machine >type and you didn't have the minimum OS requirements for that machine, you >wouldn't have a bootable HD. But can't the system tell when a disk is internal? And why does Apple ship machines with systems like these? I set up a friend's SE last fall, and it had things like the Portable cdev on its preinstalled hard drive! -- /============================================================================\ | Francis Stracke | My opinions are my own. I don't steal them.| | Department of Mathematics |=============================================| | University of Chicago | Should five percent appear too small, | | francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu | Be thankful I don't take it all. "Taxman" | \============================================================================/
norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Norton Chia) (06/10/91)
francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) writes: >But can't the system tell when a disk is internal? And how do you think the System can tell? Also, when is an internal external, or an external internal? :) >And why does Apple ship machines with systems like these? I set up a >friend's SE last fall, and it had things like the Portable cdev on its >preinstalled hard drive! While I go through throwing out a lot junk on my "internal" HD after every new installation -> Colo(u)r on an SE used to be a pet hate :) I do believe it is far easier to throw away stuff than to re-install them from disks. Cheers, -- // Norton Chia || I can be reached via e-mail --> norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU / / Micro Support || Yes, this is Australia calling. ////// AppleLink: AUST0240 / / Uni of Sydney || No, I haven't got anything to say but "Thanks", if I forgot //// When I'm talking half way around the world, my employers can't hear me ///
kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) (06/10/91)
>francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) writes: >>And why does Apple ship machines with systems like these? I set up a >>friend's SE last fall, and it had things like the Portable cdev on its >>preinstalled hard drive! norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Norton Chia) writes: >While I go through throwing out a lot junk on my "internal" HD after every >new installation -> Colo(u)r on an SE used to be a pet hate :) >I do believe it is far easier to throw away stuff than to re-install >them from disks. My point was/is: A customized install for, say, an se **should be a customized install for an se** not, as someone suggested, an install of a system which will run any Mac What exactly does customized mean? It means specific to the machine in question. Why do they bother to have a custon install if it is not really customized to the machine it claims to be customized for. Why not simply allow the user to select an 'expert custom' which would allow specific files, fonts, &c. to be excluded? It is easier to throw things away if (a) you know that they are there and (b) you know what they are. This thread started when someone found an extension by accident. Shouldn't a customized install work to prevent things like this? -- ...kiran __________kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu________(812) 331-1710 From the corrections column in a July Fresno, CA _Bee_: "An item in Thursday's [issue] about the Massachusetts budget crisis made reference to new taxes that will help put Massachusetts 'back in the African-American.' The item should have said 'back in the black.'"
Juha.Hyvonen@hut.fi (Juha Hyv|nen) (06/10/91)
In article <FRANCIS.91Jun10001547@math.uchicago.edu> francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) writes: +------------------------ ! And why does Apple ship machines with systems like these? I set up a ! friend's SE last fall, and it had things like the Portable cdev on its ! preinstalled hard drive! !........................ Although using the installer is recommended by Apple, people do copy system (folders) from each other (and different machines). / (.__o /_/ __/ .. ! / ! Juha.Hyvonen@hut.fi (juh@cs.hut.fi) !/ ) ! ------
norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Norton Chia) (06/10/91)
kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) writes: >What exactly does customized mean? It means specific to the machine in >question. Why do they bother to have a custon install if it is not >really customized to the machine it claims to be customized for. >Why not simply allow the user to select an 'expert custom' which would >allow specific files, fonts, &c. to be excluded? And how long do you think that list will be? Now, I would like just the point 10 and 12 of all fonts that has TrueType equivalents, but keep also the point 24 of those that don't... Well, I'll make an exception to Geneva 9 point Italic. >It is easier to throw things away if (a) you know that they are there and >(b) you know what they are. I absolutely agree!! I originally thought the Startup Folder was where the INITs were meant to be!! On the other hand, I must say of the people I've come across via campus wide support, it would be a lot easier for overkill than undercooked. As far as support problems go, it's much easier over the phone to ask someone to re-install their drive and the extra stuff won't hurt them too much. Some of these extra bits don't take up too much memory, and if people don't even know they have over a hundred copies of Word temp files, I can't see their complaints for a few extra bits of useless junk! :) I was trying to install a copy of Z-7.0 the other day where the installer originated with 800K disks. The first disk, Install 1, had three files: Installer, System and Installer Script, make it an alias of the Installer Script! They were pushing it a bit trying to include the script on the same 800K disk. The actual file was located on Install 3... While I certainly appreciate the ability for Installers for "expert" install, I certainly can live with the compromise of the current setup -> if you don't know enough to care, it's there anyway. If you're smart enough to know, trash the things you don't want yourself. I just think by the time I've specified all the stuff I don't want installed, I might as well just throw them out later on when I have a look around into different folders. Once you've done this, the next time round will be a breeze. You haven't tried installing PageMaker BTW, have you? You can certainly choose what not to install, but going back to your argument (b), how would you know what you don't need in the first place?? >This thread started when someone found an extension by accident. >Shouldn't a customized install work to prevent things like this? I think I've been agreeing with a compromise situation that Apple's Installers have taken. But I also believe in keeping things simple: should you decide to have what you didn't think you would've when you first installed, eg the Monitors cdev on an SE, it would take more time to locate where it is than if it were on the "internal" drive in the first place. Despite all I've said, I still agree with what is being said. Remember the good old days when Macs were meant to be simple? In this day and age of Personal File Share and Excel that's about 1.3 megabytes, the Mac is becoming more and more complicated. Why not leave the Installer simple, and let the inquisitive throw out what's not needed as far as they're concerned? We're all Mac users, aren't we? Have a bit of spirit and experiment and explore!! Now, where was I? I've got to throw away Portable, Battery, Brightness, DAL, EtherTalk Phase 2.... -- // Norton Chia || I can be reached via e-mail --> norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU / / Micro Support || Yes, this is Australia calling. ////// AppleLink: AUST0240 / / Uni of Sydney || No, I haven't got anything to say but "Thanks", if I forgot //// When I'm talking half way around the world, my employers can't hear me ///
weverka@spot.Colorado.EDU (Robert T. Weverka) (06/10/91)
In article <norton.676536676@extro> norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Norton Chia) writes: > >While I go through throwing out a lot junk on my "internal" HD after every >new installation -> Colo(u)r on an SE used to be a pet hate :) >I do believe it is far easier to throw away stuff than to re-install >them from disks. > >Cheers, >-- >/ Norton Chia || I can be reached via e-mail --> norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU / After installing I toss out the extra system folder stuff, but yesterday I noticed something else I wasn't sure if it was safe to toss. There is a host of stuff within the system itself. Using resedit, color desk stuff international calanders and more were found in the system. Is there reason to get rid of these? Will it save disk space, memory, speed? Perhaps there is enought junk in system 7 that I could toss enough to fit it on an 800 k floppy.
pejacoby@mmm.serc.3m.com (Paul E. Jacoby) (06/11/91)
In article <FRANCIS.91Jun10001547@math.uchicago.edu> francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu (Francis Stracke) writes: > >But can't the system tell when a disk is internal? Ummm, how would it do that? A new Gestalt trap? IfNotInAbox()? :-) Really, I think the logic on a general install for all Macs (put it all in there, regardless of whether it is useful or not) makes fine sense. If I ever take my External HD to a IIfx, I want to be sure it will boot. I don't want to see "The software on this disk will not boot this machine".... And, as was stated before, it takes but a moment to trash Easy Access, Battery, etc. -- | Paul E. Jacoby, 3M Company, 3M Center, 235-3F-27 | | Maplewood, MN 55144-1000 .-----------------------------------| | => pejacoby@3m.com | I am _not_ the editor of | | (612) 737-3211 | the Radio Times. |