darin@chem.ucsd.edu (Darin R. Kent) (06/13/91)
I am in a sort of dillema. I do not know if this is the appropriate group to post this, but I am wearing my flame proof suit. I need to upgrade from my old Mac Plus. I want a much more powerful machine. I look at a MacIIci, and the 68030, 5Mb, no hard drive machine costs $3555. And that is without any monitor or keyboard Then, I look at a NeXT work station that has the 68040, 8Mb RAM, 105Mb hard drive, a whole mess of bundled software, the ability to run IBM software using the program SoftPC, and I am told, soon the ability to run Mac software as well. This machine runs $3524, including a 17" MegaPixel monitor an accessory kit. What is wrong with this picture? I am interested in hearing why I should by the MacIIci or why I should not buy the NeXT station. =============================================================================== DDDDD AAA RRRRRRR IIIIII NN NN / My Opinions Are Mine Alone!!! DD DD AA AA RR RR II NNNN NN / Quick to judge, Quick to Anger, DD DD AAAAAAA RRRRRRR II NN NNNN / Slow to Understand, Ignorance, DDDDD AA AA RR RR IIIIII NN NN / Prejudice and Fear, Walk Hand in ============================================ / Hand. RUSH - Witch Hunt ===============================================================================
sjhg9320@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (K-29 Brown) (06/13/91)
Before anyone takes this as a flame, let me state that I think
The NeXT Station is truly a wonderful thing.
I had the same dilemma last spring- bought a IIci because of the currently
available software and the ease of upgrading the hard-drive.
Most of the stuff available for the NeXT as detailed in their software
booklet was supposed to be released this spring, but the lion's share of
it is still 'Real Soon Now'/'Vaporware'.
When you price the NeXT, make sure you include the cost of a 300 Meg HD upgrade.There's no way in heck you can run the full kernel, apps like Microphone,
Improv, and WriteNow and fit it all in 100 or so Megs.
Another thing to include in your pricing scheme is the cost of the software
you'll buy. If you like straight Unix stuff, you'll be home free, but if you
want to buy stuff like the previously mentioned applications, include a 100%
premimum- just like the Mac vs. DOS, software publishers need to charge more
to show a profit, due to the restricted market of the machine.
--
================================================================================
| June 4th, 1989. || |================================================================================kanderso@liege.ics.uci.edu (Ken Anderson) (06/13/91)
In article <1208@chem.ucsd.EDU> darin@chem.ucsd.edu (Darin R. Kent) writes: > >I am in a sort of dillema. I do not know if this is the appropriate group to >post this, but I am wearing my flame proof suit. I need to upgrade from my >old Mac Plus. I want a much more powerful machine. I look at a MacIIci, and >the 68030, 5Mb, no hard drive machine costs $3555. And that is without any >monitor or keyboard Then, I look at a NeXT work station that has the 68040, >8Mb RAM, 105Mb hard drive, a whole mess of bundled software, the ability to >run IBM software using the program SoftPC, and I am told, soon the ability to >run Mac software as well. This machine runs $3524, including a 17" MegaPixel >monitor an accessory kit. What is wrong with this picture? I am interested in >hearing why I should by the MacIIci or why I should not buy the NeXT station. > >=============================================================================== >DDDDD AAA RRRRRRR IIIIII NN NN / My Opinions Are Mine Alone!!! >DD DD AA AA RR RR II NNNN NN / Quick to judge, Quick to Anger, >DD DD AAAAAAA RRRRRRR II NN NNNN / Slow to Understand, Ignorance, >DDDDD AA AA RR RR IIIIII NN NN / Prejudice and Fear, Walk Hand in >============================================ / Hand. RUSH - Witch Hunt >=============================================================================== I can't belive it. This one post is going to start the whole Next / Mac war over again. For weeks we will have to wade through meaningless flame wars between Mac and Next fanatics, until the Amiga fanatics start flaming the other two. Then the other two will team up and flame the Amiga fanatics, and finally after 6 - 8 weeks someone will post saying "Look! Here is the reason. If you like Mac --> Buy Mac If you like Next --> Buy Next If you like Amiga --> Buy Amiga Take you system home and be happy!" And then it will be happy newsgroup again, until another message like this appears... Just doing my part to nip this in the bud. For all of you people gearing up to flame the other group, remember, after all is said and burned, it all ends up with the message above.... Please don't flame, keep the subject to Macintosh questions. Thank you, Ken Anderson -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Anderson | "I'd much rather live in perfection, U.C. Irvine | than deal with reality." -- Kenbod --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rkmossm@PacBell.COM (Richard Mossman) (06/14/91)
In article <28570CC5.528@ics.uci.edu> kanderso@ics.uci.edu (Ken Anderson) writes:
Wait a minute; a little touchy aren't we?
I think Darin was asking a valid question, not trying start a flame war, and
your response was more inflammatory than his question.
I too would like to know why I should drop $13,000 on a Mac IIci system to
use as the center piece to my new video editing suite when I can do the same
things with an Amiga or Next-based system for about $5000-6000? I'm
deliberately not including the cost of software, because I will be buying
new software for whichever system I buy.
What's really funny is hearing the salesperson at the local Mac store
telling me I'd be better off with the Next for this application. I'm sure
his profit margin is probably as high or higher on the Mac than it is for the
Next.
Now, I too have no desire to hear a bunch of *****aholics condemning the Mac/
Amiga/Next for whatever narrow-minded reason they have. I guess I'd simply
like to know why the Amiga and Next can be built and sold for so much less
when they use (basically) the same chip set (remember I said basically) and
are built in factories that use older, more expensive manufacturing techniques.
I've often said they will get my Mac away from me when they pry my dead, cold
fingers off the mouse, but, it's getting real hard to justify the cost versus
capabilities. I used to be real good at convincing my wife that I needed a
new whatever, but, it's real hard to convince myself that I need to spend
100+% more for a Mac than for some other machine (no matter what the name is).
I sure hope someone at Apple is reading this, because they are the only ones
who can respond or do something about it.
--
Richard K. Mossman {att,bellcore,sun,ames,decwrl}!pacbell!rkmossm
415/823-0974
=========================================================================
"I need to put some distance between overkill and me!" -- E. John (1988)kls30@ruts.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L. Shephard) (06/14/91)
In article <1208@chem.ucsd.EDU> darin@chem.ucsd.edu (Darin R. Kent) writes: > >run Mac software as well. This machine runs $3524, including a 17" MegaPixel >monitor an accessory kit. What is wrong with this picture? I am interested in >hearing why I should by the MacIIci or why I should not buy the NeXT station. > Well I have my flame proof suit on also. So for starters, there is nothing wrong with that picture. The NeXT is a full blown '040 UNIX machine. It is fast. It has display postscript. It is basically a "Get a hell of alot of bang for your buck deal." I own one. I use a SUN IPC at work. I also own an IBM PC. What you should think about is, how will the machine suit your needs? One machine is not for everyone. The NeXT is a very powerful platform that is geared toward someone who wants UNIX (preemtive multitasking) without looking at a command line. You should also think about your current software investment. The NeXT will not currently run Mac software and I have not seen any announcements of products that will enable it to do so. This is something else to think about. The NeXTstation 105 does not have enough diskspace. NeXTstep, AUX (Mac UNIX), or any other UNIX OS takes up diskspace, man pages, window servers, etc. A 105 would be dissappointing. You would need to add at least another 200 megs in harddrive space if you plan to do any development. The 105 does not come with all the bundled software but you are lic. to use it. All you have to do is copy it from a friend when you get a larger drive. To compare the IIci to a NeXTstation is not a fair comparison. The IIci runs a '030 the NeXT a '040. To run a real multitasking OS you would have to buy AUX. Don't talk to me about sys 7.0 because it is cooperative multitasking, not preemtive. 1 application can hog all the cpu time on a Mac, that cant happen in a UNIX envrionment. The NeXT comes with everything you need. Take it out of the box, connect the cables and plug it in. My price for a IIci 80/4 (educational) is about ($4000) + a 19" monitor ($1000) + keyboard ($140) this adds up to ~$5100. Compare that to a NeXTstation with a 200meg harddrive and 8 meg of memory ($3899). The NeXT appears to be the winner. This is true only if the NeXT fits your needs. Examine your needs and then buy the machine that fits them >=============================================================================== >DDDDD AAA RRRRRRR IIIIII NN NN / My Opinions Are Mine Alone!!! >DD DD AA AA RR RR II NNNN NN / Quick to judge, Quick to Anger, >DD DD AAAAAAA RRRRRRR II NN NNNN / Slow to Understand, Ignorance, >DDDDD AA AA RR RR IIIIII NN NN / Prejudice and Fear, Walk Hand in >============================================ / Hand. RUSH - Witch Hunt >=============================================================================== I'm a happy NeXT, PC, Sun, HP user. -- /* -The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers. */ /* For I can only express my own opinions. */ /* */ /* Kent L. Shephard : email - kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com */
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (06/14/91)
In article <1991Jun13.030039.9957@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> sjhg9320@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (K-29 Brown) writes:
Before anyone takes this as a flame, let me state that I think
The NeXT Station is truly a wonderful thing.
I had the same dilemma last spring- bought a IIci because of the currently
available software and the ease of upgrading the hard-drive.
Most of the stuff available for the NeXT as detailed in their software
booklet was supposed to be released this spring, but the lion's share of
it is still 'Real Soon Now'/'Vaporware'.
It's probably best to call the companies to find out what's actually
shipping and what isn't. Word Perfect and Improv are shipping. Adobe
and Mathematica(free, but not ready) will ship in July. Quark XPress
has been put on hold.
When you price the NeXT, make sure you include the cost of a 300 Meg HD upgrade.There's no way in heck you can run the full kernel, apps like Microphone,
Improv, and WriteNow and fit it all in 100 or so Megs.
I recommend getting an extra 8MB of RAM too. The Chip Merchant is
selling 4MB SIMMS for $160. The 300MB drive will probably cost around
$1100. I've seen 660MB for $1500, so you might want to consider that.
If you can network your machine to another group of NeXT's then you
can buy a 1.2GB drive for around $2200 and everyone can share the
cost.
BTW, you might be able to make do with the 105MB NeXT. It really
depends on what you want to do. You can digitize songs tha take up
5-30MB a pop. However, Word Perfect, Improv or FrameMaker documents
will take up far less space.
Another thing to include in your pricing scheme is the cost of the software
you'll buy. If you like straight Unix stuff, you'll be home free, but if you
want to buy stuff like the previously mentioned applications, include a 100%
premimum- just like the Mac vs. DOS, software publishers need to charge more
to show a profit, due to the restricted market of the machine.
Well, WriteNow is free. Improv, however, does cost $695(it was free
until March 31. That's when the NeXT deal was really sweet). I think
WP might run $395 or $495 through NeXT Connection(1-800-800-NeXT).
-Mikemelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (06/14/91)
In article <6029@pbhyb.PacBell.COM> rkmossm@PacBell.COM (Richard Mossman) writes:
I too would like to know why I should drop $13,000 on a Mac IIci system to
use as the center piece to my new video editing suite when I can do the same
things with an Amiga or Next-based system for about $5000-6000? I'm
deliberately not including the cost of software, because I will be buying
new software for whichever system I buy.
Actually, a video system for the NeXT will probably cost you around $13,000 too.
Hope these are right. I know the education prices because... *.edu
NeXT Cube $7000 -- 105MB drive, 2.88MB floppy, DSP, *9 channels of DMA*
Color monitor $2000 -- 16", million pixel color monitors are expensive!
NeXT Dimension $4000 --
Add a 1 gig. drive + an extra 8MB for your Cube. Now the price is up
to almost $16K.
The performance on the NeXT Dimension(i860) + 68040 NeXT is probably
better than most Mac systems. However, JPEG isn't working on the NeXT
yet, so that might cause some problems for some people.
BTW, IBM just dropped their 286 Model 30 System. It looks like
they're gearing up for OS/2 2.0. They're now an all >=386SX company.
-Mikees1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/14/91)
In article <6029@pbhyb.PacBell.COM> rkmossm@PacBell.COM (Richard Mossman) writes: >I too would like to know why I should drop $13,000 on a Mac IIci system to >use as the center piece to my new video editing suite when I can do the same >things with an Amiga or Next-based system for about $5000-6000? I'm >deliberately not including the cost of software, because I will be buying >new software for whichever system I buy. > This goes right back to the person who said you get the system that does what you need. Video work is the Amiga's strong point. So if you are doing a video suite, you probably are better off with an Amiga over a Mac. But then again, this same discussion could come up on an Amiga newsgroup talking about DTP asking how he could justify spending money on an Amiga when the Mac has better DTP software and most places will take a Mac disk to do printing work. -- Ethan Now the world has gone to bed, Now I lay me down to sleep, Darkness won't engulf my head, Try to count electric sheep, I can see by infrared, Sweet dream wishes you can keep, How I hate the night. How I hate the night. -- Marvin
kls30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Kent L Shephard) (06/14/91)
In article <6029@pbhyb.PacBell.COM> rkmossm@PacBell.COM (Richard Mossman) writes: >In article <28570CC5.528@ics.uci.edu> kanderso@ics.uci.edu (Ken Anderson) writes: >Wait a minute; a little touchy aren't we? > >I think Darin was asking a valid question, not trying start a flame war, and >your response was more inflammatory than his question. > >I too would like to know why I should drop $13,000 on a Mac IIci system to >use as the center piece to my new video editing suite when I can do the same >things with an Amiga or Next-based system for about $5000-6000? I'm The NeXT will need Digital Eyes and more hardrive space. So that is $900 for the additional video capability and $1200 for an additional 300Mb harddrive, total $7100, but still cheaper than $13000. Also remember the NeXT is a hell of a lot faster than any Mac, Amiga, or Atari anything. >deliberately not including the cost of software, because I will be buying >new software for whichever system I buy. > >What's really funny is hearing the salesperson at the local Mac store >telling me I'd be better off with the Next for this application. I'm sure >his profit margin is probably as high or higher on the Mac than it is for the >Next. > I don't know. Lets say he's selling a NeXTstation for $5000. He is not paying more than I would pay as a student. The $5000 is for a bottom of the line NeXTstation. I pay $3300 for the same product (educational). I think I can reasonably assume he is making $1700 on the sale. Apple enjoys high margins. The dealers may not. >Now, I too have no desire to hear a bunch of *****aholics condemning the Mac/ >Amiga/Next for whatever narrow-minded reason they have. I guess I'd simply >like to know why the Amiga and Next can be built and sold for so much less >when they use (basically) the same chip set (remember I said basically) and >are built in factories that use older, more expensive manufacturing techniques. Well the NeXT has one of the most advanced computer manufacturing plants in the world. It is computer controlled and a small crew of people are there just to make sure things run smoothly. The Mac uses generic 680x0 hardware. There is absolutely nothing special about Mac hardware. This is one reason you can run a Mac simulator on an Atari or Amiga etc. The special thing about a Mac is the ROMs and only the ROMs. Why do you think Apple is so willing to go to court to protect them but has really never been to court to protect its hardware. Apple has enjoyed artificially high prices on generic hardware because for a long time the Mac was not necessarily the best, but the only machine on the market with a GUI. They had a unique product. Now just about every manufacturer has or will support some GUI or another. People don't care if it says Apple and runs Mac software. What they do care about is ease of use. Now you have machines like the NeXT, Amiga, Atari TT pushing on Apple to provide a machine with a better price/performance ratio. Apple is having a difficult time doing that. Look at the recent layoffs. Apple has sold more machines than they ever have, but their net earnings are lower than they were last year. > >I've often said they will get my Mac away from me when they pry my dead, cold >fingers off the mouse, but, it's getting real hard to justify the cost versus >capabilities. I used to be real good at convincing my wife that I needed a >new whatever, but, it's real hard to convince myself that I need to spend >100+% more for a Mac than for some other machine (no matter what the name is). Say no to expensive hardware. Send a message to Apple, let them know that you will no longer pay high prices for hardware that be competitive in a performance war. > >I sure hope someone at Apple is reading this, because they are the only ones >who can respond or do something about it. > >-- >Richard K. Mossman {att,bellcore,sun,ames,decwrl}!pacbell!rkmossm >415/823-0974 >========================================================================= >"I need to put some distance between overkill and me!" -- E. John (1988) -- /* -The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers. */ /* For I can only express my own opinions. */ /* */ /* Kent L. Shephard : email - kls30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.c
Adam.Frix@p18.f20.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Frix) (06/16/91)
In message <1208@chem.ucsd.EDU> darin@chem.ucsd.edu (Darin R. Kent) writes:
DRK> I am in a sort of dillema. I do not know if this is the appropriate
DRK> group to post this, but I am wearing my flame proof suit. I need
DRK> to upgrade from my old Mac Plus. I want a much more powerful
DRK> machine. I look at a MacIIci, and the 68030, 5Mb, no hard drive
DRK> machine costs $3555. And that is without any monitor or keyboard
DRK> Then, I look at a NeXT work station that has the 68040, 8Mb RAM,
DRK> 105Mb hard drive, a whole mess of bundled software, the ability
DRK> to run IBM software using the program SoftPC, and I am told,
DRK> soon the ability to run Mac software as well. This machine runs
DRK> $3524, including a 17" MegaPixel monitor an accessory kit. What
DRK> is wrong with this picture? I am interested in hearing why I
DRK> should by the MacIIci or why I should not buy the NeXT station.
No flames here, just some observations:
1) That 105MB hard drive on the NeXT is going to be mighty full of system software stuff, about 80 megs of it. That'll leave you 20-25 megs of disk space for yourself. I think rather than looking at raw disk space, you need to determine (percentage of free disk space)/dollar for each setup. A Mac, any Mac, with a 105MB hard drive running, say, System 7, only needs to take up maybe 5 megs of disk space for the base system, leaving you 100 megs free for yourself. (Yeah, I know, my System 6 folder is 12,2
81K--but that's loaded with junk _I_ decided to put there, stuff that doesn't absolutely need to be there and can therefore be trashed if necessary. I guess some of the NeXT stuff can be trashed as well, but I don't know how much. I suspect not bunches, since NeXT doesn't ship any development tools on any disk less than 330MB.)
2) Not only can the NeXT run IBM software via SoftPC, so can the Mac. So, both the NeXT and the Mac can run any Mac or PC software you may need (at least, as soon as the software Mac emulator for the NeXT comes out). The NeXT has the advantage of being able to run NeXT software as well. I don't know how important that is in general right now, or how important it is to your needs right now.
Other than that, I grok your observations. The MegaPixel display is ultracool.
I guess it boils down to, compare the machines in their environments. The IIci is a higher-end machine in its environment; within the scope of Mac software, it can do some pretty powerful juju. The base NeXTStation is just that, base. Now, I'm not implying that you shouldn't compare the two; on an absolute scale, they're fairly equal performers. But does the NeXTStation have the power to run with the big NeXT boys, or is it the Classic/LC of the NeXT world? (I don't know, I'm just providing some quest
ions to ask.)
Also, watch that software emulation of other platforms. Do yourself a big favor, and try out SoftPC on both platforms to see how well it works (this comparison works better if you've got an actual PC to compare them to). My suspicion is that you'll be disappointed in its performance. Then extrapolate that to a Mac emulator in software. My suspicion here is that the Mac emulator for the NeXT will be even slower than the PC emulator, because it's doing that much more work.
Good luck,
--Adam--
****************************************************************
* "...it was a lot easier to train a pilot to pick up *
* a rock, than train a scientist to land on the moon." *
* --Mark Berent, in _Steel Tiger_ *
****************************************************************
* CIS: 70721,504 *
* America OnLine: AdamFrix *
* Internet: Adam.Frix@p18.f20.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG *
****************************************************************
--
Adam Frix via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH
UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!20.18!Adam.Frix
INET: Adam.Frix@p18.f20.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORGnate@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Nate Berggren) (06/18/91)
I missed the beginning of this discussion about cost/performance of a Mac or NeXT based video system. can anyone fill me in as to what features this system was to have? Nate Berggren nate@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Northwestern University
edgar@function.mps.ohio-state.edu (Gerald Edgar) (06/21/91)
I have a Mac IIcx in my office, about 1.5 years old. In the next office, there is a NeXT, less than 2 months old. This morning, there was a 5-minute surprise power outage. When the power came back on, I restarted my Mac, and it took 30 seconds longer than usual to startup, while it scanned the 80 meg disk. The NeXT is not running, 7 hours later; two guys are still working on it. -- Gerald A. Edgar Internet: edgar@mps.ohio-state.edu Department of Mathematics Bitnet: EDGAR@OHSTPY The Ohio State University telephone: 614-292-0395 (Office) Columbus, OH 43210 -292-4975 (Math. Dept.) -292-1479 (Dept. Fax)
tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) (06/21/91)
>This morning, there was a 5-minute surprise power outage. When the >power came back on, I restarted my Mac, and it took 30 seconds longer >than usual to startup, while it scanned the 80 meg disk. The >NeXT is not running, 7 hours later; two guys are still working How about that, we just happened to have a power outage here too. I pressed the power button on my Mac it came up. I pressed the power key on my NeXT it also came up (after it fixed the filesystems which took perhpas 2 or 3 minutes). So what does all this mean? Think about it. Trying to be nice and not flame too hard, Todd -- Internet: tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu NeXTMail: tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu BitNet: tagreen@iubacs.bitnet
mtanner@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Michael C. Tanner) (06/22/91)
After two power outage stories involving Macs and NeXTs, I have to tell this one. We have several Macs, several SUNs and two NeXTs in our lab. One afternoon the power went out, lights off, all machines down except ... the NeXTs! They are plugged into a surge-protector strip, the light on it was off (normally it's on), but the machines worked fine. The outage lasted awhile, became a party in the lab, and we played games on the NeXTs for almost 2 hours. You people are just buying the wrong machines. Get the ones with the built-in power source. :-) Oh, BTW, when power came back the Macs powered right up, the diskless SUNs came up but were useless, the file server took half an hour or so because of new bad pages on the disk and some other things, and the new-fangled SPARC was dead for some time and required special babying to get working again. -- mike
rblewitt@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Richard Blewitt) (06/22/91)
In article <MTANNER.91Jun21130407@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> mtanner@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Michael C. Tanner) writes: >We have several Macs, several SUNs and two NeXTs in our lab. One afternoon >the power went out, lights off, all machines down except ... the NeXTs! They >are plugged into a surge-protector strip, the light on it was off (normally >it's on), but the machines worked fine. The outage lasted awhile, became a >party in the lab, and we played games on the NeXTs for almost 2 hours. Even from the other side of the country I can tell that your nexts were not plugged into a surge-protector, but they were in fact plugged into a UPS (Uninteruptable Power Supply). They are very useful devices that are designed so that you can safely shut the machine down instead of getting the instant off. >You people are just buying the wrong machines. Get the ones with the built-in >power source. :-) No normal desktop machine has its own power source. See above. A UPS for the next would cost $3-500, so no way is it included. >Oh, BTW, when power came back the Macs powered right up, the diskless SUNs >came up but were useless, the file server took half an hour or so because of >new bad pages on the disk and some other things, and the new-fangled SPARC was >dead for some time and required special babying to get working again. File servers are like that. I worked in a place with a SG 280 server that would take ~2 hours to come up under seminormal circumstances, after a storm induced power outage, it was flakey for months. Rick _____________________________________________________________________ _____________________________.sig____________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________ The generic .sig Rick Blewitt rblewitt@ucsd.edu
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (06/22/91)
In article <MTANNER.91Jun21130407@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> mtanner@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Michael C. Tanner) writes: >After two power outage stories involving Macs and NeXTs, I have to tell this >one. > >We have several Macs, several SUNs and two NeXTs in our lab. One afternoon >the power went out, lights off, all machines down except ... the NeXTs! They >are plugged into a surge-protector strip, the light on it was off (normally >it's on), but the machines worked fine. The outage lasted awhile, became a >party in the lab, and we played games on the NeXTs for almost 2 hours. > >You people are just buying the wrong machines. Get the ones with the built-in >power source. :-) I take it this 'surge protector strip' was really a UPS? BTW, it is a little known fact that the Mac Portable has a built-in nuclear reactor (you wondered why it was so heavy, didn't you) -- it just requires some 98% pure uranium (bomb grade). I loaded mine up and it has worked flawlessly ever since-- batteries never need to be charged, and, as a bonus, the screen glows in the dark (this is an original portable without backlighting-- rumor has it that backlighting wasn't thought necessary due to the reactor.). Only problem is that I'm going away to New Zealand and I'm concerned about their reaction. Oh well, chances are they don't know about the nuke in the Portable. -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
bostrov@prism.cs.orst.edu (Vareck Bostrom) (06/30/91)
In <296193.285E13B9@cmhgate.FIDONET.ORG> Adam.Frix@p18.f20.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Frix) writes: >In message <1208@chem.ucsd.EDU> darin@chem.ucsd.edu (Darin R. Kent) writes: >DRK> I am in a sort of dillema. I do not know if this is the appropriate >DRK> group to post this, but I am wearing my flame proof suit. I need >DRK> to upgrade from my old Mac Plus. I want a much more powerful >DRK> machine. I look at a MacIIci, and the 68030, 5Mb, no hard drive >DRK> machine costs $3555. And that is without any monitor or keyboard >DRK> Then, I look at a NeXT work station that has the 68040, 8Mb RAM, >DRK> 105Mb hard drive, a whole mess of bundled software, the ability >DRK> to run IBM software using the program SoftPC, and I am told, >DRK> soon the ability to run Mac software as well. This machine runs >DRK> $3524, including a 17" MegaPixel monitor an accessory kit. What >DRK> is wrong with this picture? I am interested in hearing why I >DRK> should by the MacIIci or why I should not buy the NeXT station. >No flames here, just some observations: >1) That 105MB hard drive on the NeXT is going to be mighty full of system software stuff, about 80 megs of it. That'll leave you 20-25 megs of disk space for yourself. I think rather than looking at raw disk space, you need to determine (percentage of free disk space)/dollar for each setup. A Mac, any Mac, with a 105MB hard drive running, say, System 7, only needs to take up maybe 5 megs of disk space for the base system, leaving you 100 megs free for yourself. (Yeah, I know, my System 6 folder i True. I have a NeXTcube that came with a 105 MB disk. But 105 MB is tiny for almost any unix machine, not just the NeXT. A price you pay for a far superior OS. I added a 660 MB, and a 330 MB drive to my machine, and am just fine now. >2) Not only can the NeXT run IBM software via SoftPC, so can the Mac. So, both the NeXT and the Mac can run any Mac or PC software you may need (at least, as soon as the software Mac emulator for the NeXT comes out). The NeXT has the advantage of being able to run NeXT software as well. I don't know how important that is in general right now, or how important it is to your needs right now. >Other than that, I grok your observations. The MegaPixel display is ultracool. >I guess it boils down to, compare the machines in their environments. The IIci is a higher-end machine in its environment; within the scope of Mac software, it can do some pretty powerful juju. The base NeXTStation is just that, base. Now, I'm not implying that you shouldn't compare the two; on an absolute scale, they're fairly equal performers. But does the NeXTStation have the power to run with the big NeXT boys, or is it the Classic/LC of the NeXT world? (I don't know, I'm just providing some The "base" NeXTstation can do everything my fullblown Cube can do, with two exceptions: (1) You can NOT put color on a base NeXTstation (2) You cannot upgrade your base NeXTstation's CPU (so far as I know). This will become important as the 88110 Hurricane NeXTs come out. The Hurricane CPU should be upwards of 75 MIPS and will be very nice to upgrade an 040 to. The Mac II series in general is REALLY slow (IIfx, IIci, IIcx, etc.) compared to the 68040 NeXT's, though the Mac's apprear faster (Their windows move around faster, etc.). But when you run your raytracers or physics homework, the 17 MIPS CPU does make a difference. The NeXT STILL doesn't have very much software available, and I don't expect that much will be available soon. Also, you need at least 16 MB RAM to get acceptable performace from the NeXT, unless you only run three or four tasks at once. 8 MB means you swap all the time, even when the machine is idle, 12 MB means you swap when you start up Mathematica, and 16 MB means you usually don't swap. That's about it. - Vareck bostrov@prism.cs.orst.edu
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (07/01/91)
In article <1991Jun29.232420.21748@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> bostrov@prism.cs.orst.edu (Vareck Bostrom) writes:
The Mac II series in general is REALLY slow (IIfx, IIci, IIcx, etc.) compared
to the 68040 NeXT's, though the Mac's apprear faster (Their windows move
around faster, etc.). But when you run your raytracers or physics homework,
the 17 MIPS CPU does make a difference.
Do you think the windows, etc. move faster on a Mac than a 16MB NeXT?
Things seem pretty snappy on thing 16MB machine. Also, is it still
the case that only the outline is moved on the Mac, and not the entire
window? Has this changed on System 7.0? Wait. Who am I kidding?
Not if System 7.0 still runs well on a Mac Classic!
The NeXT STILL doesn't have very much software available, and I don't expect
that much will be available soon.
At least Adobe Illustrator finally made it. I was beginning to wonder.
Also, you need at least 16 MB RAM to get acceptable performace from the
NeXT, unless you only run three or four tasks at once. 8 MB means you
swap all the time, even when the machine is idle, 12 MB means you swap when
you start up Mathematica, and 16 MB means you usually don't swap.
16MB goes for just under $600, and prices are suppose to be dropping
in the near future.
-Mike