macq@miguel.llnl.gov (Don MacQueen) (09/19/90)
Well, actually, I don't believe the Mac is used intuitively at all. It's just that many things we want to do with it are easy to remember, or analagous to something that is easy to remember. Cheers Don MacQueen macq@miguel.llnl.gov
ar4@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Piper Keairnes) (09/19/90)
macq@miguel.llnl.gov (Don MacQueen) writes: >Well, actually, I don't believe the Mac is used intuitively at all. >It's just that many things we want to do with it are easy to remember, >or analagous to something that is easy to remember. For that matter, I don't think that there has been a computer yet that is truely intuitive the FIRST time you use it, for that to be true it probably wouldn't have a keyboard/mouse/etc... it would have voice recognition and it would be artificially intelligent. It would be robotic and might even cook you dinner. However, when a computer is EASY to use and EASY to remember and once you have a feel for the interface and it is easy to predict how things will/should be done, then the computer BECOMES intuitive to the user. The quicker that process is, the more "intuitive" I would say the computer is. _____ Piper Keairnes - Computer Science ** Purdue University Computing Center ** INTERNET: ar4@sage.cc.purdue.edu ** Unisys Corporation Co-op Student ** BITNET: xar4@purccvm.bitnet ** Macintosh Programmer/ Specialist **
dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) (09/19/90)
In article <1990Sep18.171043@miguel.llnl.gov> macq@miguel.llnl.gov (Don MacQueen) writes: >Well, actually, I don't believe the Mac is used intuitively at all. >It's just that many things we want to do with it are easy to remember, >or analagous to something that is easy to remember. > >Cheers >Don MacQueen >macq@miguel.llnl.gov I absolutely agree that the Mac is not "intuitive". My first exposure to the Macintosh came in 1984, when I and my family were staying with some friends in Austin, in order to attend the AAAI Conference there. Our friends had a Macintosh, but my son and eldest daughter hogged the machine every evening, so I didn't have a chance at it. Instead, I tried to figure out how to use MacWrite by reading the documentation. Intuitive? Jeez! I couldn't even find the damn Insert command! My son (then 5 years old) had to help me get started. Now, of course, we've had our own Mac for almost six years, and it's all perfectly obvious. I can't imagine anyone being confused by it--in particular, I can't figure out what's wrong with my UNIX and DOS-using friends, when they try to use it. What the Mac is, is: (1) Very easy to learn. (But you GOTTA learn!) (2) Very uniform and consistent in its operation. This is a point whose importance cannot be communicated to the UNIX or DOS user with a casual acquaintance with the Macintosh; they may understand intellectually, but they don't grok. I think there is a place for the word "intuitive" when discussing Mac interfaces. However, it should be restricted to mean "obvious to a Mac user, or trivial for such a user to figure out." I do not believe this word should be used to a non-Mac-user; to the non-Mac person, the interface is quite clearly NOT intuitive, and claiming that it is only poisons the well for any other claims one might make. -- Dave Matuszek (dave@prc.unisys.com) -- Unisys Corp. / Paoli Research Center / PO Box 517 / Paoli PA 19301 -- Any resemblance between my opinions and those of my employer is improbable. < You can put a mouse on an IBM. And you can put a radio on a motorcycle. >
brindle (Jack Brindle) (09/19/90)
In article <1990Sep18.171043@miguel.llnl.gov> macq@miguel.llnl.gov (Don MacQueen) writes: >Well, actually, I don't believe the Mac is used intuitively at all. >It's just that many things we want to do with it are easy to remember, >or analagous to something that is easy to remember. ... Which makes it intuitive... > >Cheers >Don MacQueen >macq@miguel.llnl.gov - Jack Brindle
jtn@potomac.ads.com (John T. Nelson) (09/20/90)
>I absolutely agree that the Mac is not "intuitive". > >I think there is a place for the word "intuitive" when discussing Mac >interfaces. However, it should be restricted to mean "obvious to a >Mac user, or trivial for such a user to figure out." I do not believe >this word should be used to a non-Mac-user; to the non-Mac person, the >interface is quite clearly NOT intuitive, and claiming that it is only >poisons the well for any other claims one might make. I don't agree. I was a non-Mac user before I started using the Mac and fe very intuitive and easy to learn. I think the problem here is that you were a user who was prepared for and perhaps expecting a conventional command-line oriented interface, thus your confusion when you couldn't find the "insert command" in MacWrite. There is no insert command when using pencil and paper... why should there be with a mouse and bitmap screen. THe Mac is and can be intuitive if you discard the baggage of old computer interfaces and accept the new futuristic world of mouse-oriented bitmap screens. In other words, non-intrusive intuitive interfaces oriented towards people, not computers. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ORGANIZATION: Advanced Decision Systems GEOGRAPHIC: Arlington, VA UUCP: kzin!speaker@mimsy.umd.edu INTERNET: jtn@potomac.ads.com SPOKEN: Yo... John! PHONE: (703) 243-1611 PROJECT: The Conrail Locomotive/Harpsichord Fusion Program =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
macq@miguel.llnl.gov (Don MacQueen) (09/21/90)
..... memory is by no means the same as intuition ....
paul@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Paul Siu) (09/21/90)
I disagree. I was a command-line interface user before I use the Mac, and I had no trouble crossing over. The interface however is intuitive, but it's not so intuitive that one can just learn it out of the box. There are concepts that one must learn, such as menu selection, double clicking, and such. There are also concepts that the Mac cannot protect you from, such as floppy diskette, files, and other computer items. There are also some not so intuitive things in Mac, since as copying a file from one diskette to another when there is only one drive. The least intutive element is the ejection of diskette by throwing it in the trash. The Mac interface is a vast improvement over DOS. One can say that it is more intuitive than command-line, but it is far from being instant.
garrett@brahms.udel.edu (Joel Garrett) (09/21/90)
I've always found that people who go through the 'guided tour' information that comes with the machines that leads the users through the basic Mac concepts usually have few problems in picking up on how to use different types of Mac applications. Of course, this doesn't cover the dirty details of things like installing fonts, new software, upgrades, etc. But these things are all usually documented someplace in most commercial software, so that isn't a problem. However, I have also found that people like students who are expected to just walk into a public access lab and intuitively know how to use things like MacWrite, they're no better off than the person who has to learn Wordperfect on a PC in the same lab, at least initially. This is especially true of the "compuphobe" class of people who seem to think that merely touching the computer will result in some kind of explosion or personal injury (ok, so I'm exaggerating a little here, but those of you who have worked in such labs know what I'm talking about) So, yes, the intuitive thing, taken out of context, can be misleading. Any computer software, without some kind of initial orientation, is far from intuitive to use. It just so happens that the Mac takes less time to at least get started and marginally productive with. Just like any other system though, it takes time, practice, and reading of documentation to master most mac applications that do anything sizeable (such as a word processor or a freehand drawing program) What's even better are the users who don't dig beyond the "obvious" (read that as program options that one can either find directly in the menus or minor trial/error) and the actions they take while using a program to make it do something. I'm sure many support people have experienced some variant on the user who is using MS Word or some similar WP application just like they'd use a type- writer... You know, doing double-spacing by hitting the return key an extra time between lines, using the spacebar to align tables and do indents, etc., etc. So much for intuition! ;-)
norman@d.cs.okstate.edu (Norman Graham) (09/22/90)
Come on people; remove this discussion from c.s.m.apps. Followups to c.s.m.misc From article <922@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM>, by paul@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Paul Siu): > [...] The least intutive > element is the ejection of diskette by throwing it in the trash. It may not be intuitable, but it is convenient. Those of us who used the Mac in its early months had to perform the same operation by (1) using the 'Eject' menu command to place the volume off-line (i.e. ejected) and then (2) dragging the dimmed floppy-disk icon to the trash to unmount the volume (i.e. tell the Mac to forget about the floppy). By allowing the user to drag on-line, mounted volumes to the trash, Apple converted a two-step process to a one-step process. Even before this feature was added to the Finder, I found myself absentmindedly trying to use it. Of course instead of ejecting the disk I got an alert box telling me I couldn't do that. Gee, I guess that maybe it is an intuitable feature, but only for people who learned to to things the old way first. Cheers, Norm -- Norman Graham <norman@a.cs.okstate.edu> {cbosgd,rutgers}!okstate!norman The opinions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect the views of the state of Oklahoma, Oklahoma State University, OSU's Department of Computer Science, or of the writer himself.
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (09/26/90)
The mac reuses several concepts very well. In particular, all text entry is editable with the same tools (mouse selection of an insertion point, character/word selection, deletion, cut/paste), even in interactive dialogues. The reason it's intuitive is because the knowledge learned from a well-written application is immediately reusable in other applications. Once you can manipulate and name files in the finder, you have almost all the knowledge necessary to crank out a simple term paper in MacWrite or MS-Word (i.e. entering / editing text, using scrollbars, copy/paste).