mr@ethz.UUCP (Marc Raths) (07/24/90)
First a word of caution: I don't have access to FrameMaker on a Mac but Frame Technology says it is the same as on a Sun so comments may well apply. FrameMaker has been developed for technical publications but can be put to good use in other areas as well. It more than a DTP package since it has a text editor that rivals many dedicated word processors, tools for book buil- ding (index, auto numbering etc.), full DTP (multiple flows on a page etc.), graphics, math typesetting as easy as word processing and hypertext capa- bilities. The user interface even on a Sun (under UNIX) is as good as any Mac program. Most anything can be done in several ways, be it via mouse/menu or function keys. Documentation is excellent, in printing as well as in the on-line hypertext manual. Most people I have taught to use it (non-computer people as well as CS students) found it very easy to use, the command set being complete, intuitive and consistent. They are using it for a wide range of jobs from simple letter writing over book writing for technical documentation to drawings. Interfacing is easy: You can import texts from various text editors like MS Word or build your own filter. The same goes for graphics: You can import raster graphics or Postscript files or even create a hot link. This is ouput data from an other program. When in FrameMaker, double clicking on it starts up this other program and lets you edit data there. When you're done, data is automatically pasted in the document. Graphics is excellent for complex drawings but without flashy shading effects or curved text etc. On Suns there is a free evaluation copy of the software available (saving disabled) - I don't know about Macs. Personally I prefer FrameMaker over any other tool or combination of tools on Unix-Workstations, Macs or PCs for most writing tasks except programming. (No connections to Frame Technology except as a happy user.) -- Marc Raths, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Baechtoldstrasse 5 CH-8044 Zurich, Switzerland UUCP: mr@bernina.uucp (mcsun!chx400!bernina!mr) Voice : +41-1-251 6824 Internet: mr@bernina.ethz.ch
cspencer@spdcc.COM (Cliff Spencer) (07/24/90)
Two points about Frame: It is not strictly necessary to create your text in another program, Frame accepts a basic subset of emacs commands.It is ironic that although Frame always had a Mac interface, it actually looks better on the Sun than on the Mac. -cliff -- Cliff Spencer spdcc!cspencer cspencer@spdcc.com
ewm@mdavcr.UUCP (Eric W. Mitchel) (07/24/90)
I have had some experience with Frame on the Mac and Sun, and I thought I would add a few comments for anyone who is interested. -------- In article <5213@ethz.UUCP> mr@ethz.UUCP (Marc Raths) writes: >First a word of caution: I don't have access to FrameMaker on a Mac but >Frame Technology says it is the same as on a Sun so comments may well apply. I have an authorized evaluation copy of Frame for the Mac. The implementation is very good. However, I would stongly recommend using at least their minimum recommended system of a Mac SE/30 or better. I have tried it on a regular SE with 4MB memory, a FPD and a 40MB HD, and even straight text editing is really slow. Oh, I would also recommend using Adobe Type Manager. It is common to use variable levels of zoom in your documents, and I believe you get smoother text. I haven't tried this, but that is what I've heard. ------- >FrameMaker has been developed for technical publications but can be put to >good use in other areas as well. It more than a DTP package since it has a >text editor that rivals many dedicated word processors, tools for book buil- >ding (index, auto numbering etc.), full DTP (multiple flows on a page etc.), >graphics, math typesetting as easy as word processing and hypertext capa- >bilities. Frame is very strong as a WP/DTP package, but considering that it was developed for technical publications, it is definitely lacking in a few important features. First, it has no table editor. You can do some table operations using the formatting templates and techniques that frame provides, but it is definitely a kludge. Anyone who has used the table editor in Arbortext Publisher knows what a good table editor is. The formula editor in Frame is quite good, but I am disappointed with the limited ability to resize equations (you get three sizes, small, medium and large). Also, you have to manually line up '=' signs in stacked equations, and you -------- >Graphics is excellent for complex drawings but without flashy shading >effects or curved text etc. My personal experience is that the graphics editor in Frame is somewhat limited. It is roughly equivalent to an early version of MacDraw v1.x. You can only rotate objects to 90 degree angles, etc. It is also purely object oriented - there are no painting capabilities. Note that Publisher has very functional tools for both object oriented graphics and painting programs. -------- >... or even create a hot link. >This is ouput data from an other program. When in FrameMaker, double >clicking on it starts up this other program and lets you edit data there. >When you're done, data is automatically pasted in the document. I think it should be pointed out that any applications that you are going to hot link to must be set up to use Sun's Remote Procedure Calls (RPC). I am currently waiting for a catalog from Frame which lists all the applications that currently hot link. However, with the support that Frame is receiving in the industry, I feel confident that there are going to be one hell of a lot of tools that work with it in the next few years. This will certainly help to address any particular deficiencies that Frame may have in functionality. -------- >On Suns there is a free evaluation copy of the software available (saving >disabled) - I don't know about Macs. We have a fully functional evaluation copy that we got from Frame directly. We are, however, a fairly big potential client and I don't know whether such copies are commonly available (I doubt it). -------- I feel that Frame is definitely the best WP/DTP package that I've used, but it has some definite drawbacks. It would be great to be able to use some of the features in Publisher's tools (Tables, Graphics, Formulas) with FrameMaker We recently brought in a couple of reps from Frame Technologies. I was impressed by their product and the pace with which they are bringing out new releases. So far they have been very good at meeting their projected deadlines. They informed us that a version 3.0 of Frame will be coming out in November/December for the Sun (with other platforms following over the next 3-6 months). This new version will address tables more effectively, as well as several other of my concerns. Apparently, effectivity control (as in Interleaf) is coming too. Oh, by the way, I'm not really very fond of Publisher. It has some great tools and general capabilities, but I found the product extremely difficult to work with. I really don't like the user interface - either for the main program or it's tools (table editor, drawing program, painting program). Maybe it is partly because I am from the Mac world, but I found the interface was bizarre and non-intuitive.
bmh@demon.siemens.com (Beatrice M Hwong) (07/25/90)
In article <5213@ethz.UUCP> mr@ethz.UUCP (Marc Raths) writes: >First a word of caution: I don't have access to FrameMaker on a Mac but >Frame Technology says it is the same as on a Sun so comments may well apply. > How about the ability to have floating figure references? More explicitly, will Framemaker allow one to include in the text a reference to a figure number which is then attached to a figure, the binding of that figure number does not happen until print time. Beatrice Hwong 609-734-3384 bmh@siemens.siemens.com
sticklen@cps.msu.edu (Jon Sticklen) (07/25/90)
From article <35390@siemens.siemens.com>, by bmh@demon.siemens.com (Beatrice M Hwong): > In article <5213@ethz.UUCP> mr@ethz.UUCP (Marc Raths) writes: >>First a word of caution: I don't have access to FrameMaker on a Mac but >>Frame Technology says it is the same as on a Sun so comments may well apply. >> > How about the ability to have floating figure references? More explicitly, > will Framemaker allow one to include in the text a reference to a figure > number which is then attached to a figure, the binding of that figure number > does not happen until print time. > Beatrice Hwong > 609-734-3384 > bmh@siemens.siemens.com in fact is there *any* dtp system that allows symbolic referencing other than FullWrite - and is still WYSIWYG (ie not LaTeX..) ---jon---
cortesi@infmx.UUCP (David Cortesi) (07/26/90)
>From article <35390@siemens.siemens.com>, by bmh@demon.siemens.com (Beatrice M Hwong): >> How about the ability to have floating figure references? More explicitly, >> will Framemaker allow one to include in the text a reference to a figure >> number which is then attached to a figure, the binding of that figure number >> does not happen until print time. >From article <1990Jul25.040054.541@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> sticklen@cps.msu.edu (Jon Sticklen) writes: >in fact is there *any* dtp system that allows symbolic referencing >other than FullWrite - and is still WYSIWYG (ie not LaTeX..) Frame has two complementary mechanisms. Figures (and other things that need numbering, e.g. decimal-numbered paragraphs) are autonumbered, and the numbers are recomputed on the fly. If you insert a numbered figure (paragraph, equation, whatever) the other figures (paragraphs, equations) are renumbered instantly. The person who designs the document has a lot of control over the format of numbers, for instance they can be roman, arabic, alpha; and they can contain constant text such as "Figure ". Second, Frame has a scheme of dynamic cross-references. There is a catalog of xref formats which specify the format of a reference. When inserting an xref, you choose the place you want it, click the format name, and then specify the "source," or thing to which you want to refer. For example you can design a format like Figure <paranum> on page <pagenum> When you insert an xref using this format, sourcing what is currently figure 7 on page 32, what shows up in your text is "Figure 7 on page 32." Another common xref format would be ``<paratext>'' on page <pagenum>; An xref in this format might look like ``All About Widgets'' on page 89. If numbers or texts change, the xrefs are not automatically updated; you manually invoke a cross-reference update for the whole document when you want, e.g. before printing. Takes a few seconds typically. Xrefs can go between documents, for instance between chapters of a book, and there is a book-level update that will open all the files of the book and update the xrefs between them. Takes a coffee break to do. The only thing I have found difficult to do with this system is to get C-P type numbering ("Figure 3-8 on page 3-29"). The page and figure numbers are easy but automatic chapter numbers require a kludge too ugly to be believed. (Literal chapter numbers can be embedded in the formats, but I needed the ability to reorder chapters without editing formats.) I see this has gotten very long; followups and other detailed questions on Frame features should be directed to comp.text.desktop.
moeckel@nsc.nsc.com (Robert Moeckel) (07/26/90)
I have not used Framemaker on the Mac, but I have used it on the SUN and have seen a demo on the Mac. I find it very easy to use on the Sun, although I have only worked with text till now. Files are compatible between the two systems. I don't have a Mac available on a net, but I got some Framemaker/Mac files from the demo. I then uploaded the files via modem from my Mac at home to one of our Unix systems. From there a simple rcp to the Sun and the files opened right up. Only problem was that fonts were not available on the Sun. The program prompted that fonts were not available and then started up. You have to be careful when uploading that you don't upload as MacBinary. You have to do a straight binary upload, but it seems to work fine. Bob Moeckel moeckel@nsc.nsc.com No connection with Frame Tech. except as a user.
ewm@mdavcr.UUCP (Eric W. Mitchel) (07/26/90)
In article <35390@siemens.siemens.com> bmh@demon.siemens.com (Beatrice M Hwong) writes: >How about the ability to have floating figure references? More explicitly, >will Framemaker allow one to include in the text a reference to a figure >number which is then attached to a figure, the binding of that figure number >does not happen until print time. Yes, Framemaker on the Mac does this. One of the most useful features which is missing in many packages (ie: Word). b.t.w.: With Framemaker v2.x on any machine, all have the same functionality. Eric =========================================================================== disclaimer: Take a grain of my opinions with a large lump of salt.
davidl@leonardo.intel.com (David D. Levine) (07/27/90)
There is a free demo disk available of FrameMaker for the Macintosh. Call 1-800-U4FRAME to request it. (I've requested one, but I haven't received it yet.) - David D. Levine, Intel IMSO Tech Pubs davidl@leonardo.intel.com "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo."
mmt@client2.DRETOR.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (07/28/90)
in fact is there *any* dtp system that allows symbolic referencing
other than FullWrite - and is still WYSIWYG (ie not LaTeX..)
---jon---
========================
Well, Nisus 2.11 gives you cross-references in the text (i.e. you reference
a place such as "Page 25 para 3" and then you do some editing that moves
the referenced point. When you look at the reference, you get "Page 32 para 1".
They also have a "Update Figure Number" macro with the distribution, so I am
guessing it would not be too hard to update references to figure numbers.
(I only got Nisus 2 days ago, so I haven't had a chance to try writing macros).
--
Martin Taylor (mmt@ben.dciem.dnd.ca ...!uunet!dciem!mmt) (416) 635-2048
There is no legal canon prohibiting the application of common sense
(Judge James Fontana, July 1990, on staying the prosecution of a case)lloyd@Axecore.COM (Lloyd Buchanan) (08/01/90)
In article <1216@gandalf.littlei.UUCP> davidl@leonardo.intel.com (David D. Levine) writes: >There is a free demo disk available of FrameMaker for the Macintosh. Call >1-800-U4FRAME to request it. (I've requested one, but I haven't received >it yet.) > >- David D. Levine, Intel IMSO Tech Pubs > davidl@leonardo.intel.com > "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a >rigged demo." Good News: I got the demo Bad News: Its a MacroMind Player movie, not an almost-fully-functional version ala Unix. -- Lloyd Buchanan lloyd@Axecore.COM Axe Core Investors uunet!axecore!lloyd Axe Castle (914) 333-5226 (phone) Tarrytown, NY 10591 (914) 333-5208 (FAX)
dadler@blake.acs.washington.edu (David Adler) (08/22/90)
Also check out FrameMaker running on the NeXT - the best implementation and enviroonment I've seen. -- David A. Adler University of Washington Pathology SM-30 Seattle, WA 98195
scavo@spencer.cs.uoregon.edu (Tom Scavo) (09/20/90)
Many thanks to all those who took the time to share their
knowledge of FrameMaker.
Special thanks to Mark Lawrence (mark@DRD.Com) who forwarded
the original article to the FrameUsers' Mailing List
(framers@DRD.Com) which generated most of the response. If
you are a user of FrameMaker and want to subscribe, send a
request to framers-request@DRD.Com.
------------------------------------------------------------
Here's an overview of FrameMaker as seen by the respondents:
Strengths Weaknesses
auto-referencing table generation (3)
picture import by reference drawing tools
auto section numbering picture positioning
Book Building help system
FrameMath (equations, etc.) hanging indents
multiple dictionaries non-Mac user interface
multiple platforms limited file export
------------------------------------------------------------
Plus some other comments in no particular order:
- FrameMaker's user interface is nearly identical across
platforms.
- The Mac version is a full implementation of say, the Sun
version, and should be completely file-compatible with the
workstation version.
- Everyone who mentioned it was using a Mac IIcx or better.
An SE probably wouldn't cut it, although one person
mentioned that an SE/30 with a second monitor might work.
In fact, a 19" monitor seemed to be the display of choice
(even a full-page monitor is unable to accomodate all of
Frame's floating windows).
- From a practical point of view, 4MB of memory is probably
minimum, and one person reported a noticeable increase in
speed (when editing large files) on a Mac IIcx with 8MB.
- Whereas Word for example, is stable, FrameMaker on the
Mac is not. Several bugs were reported: 1) the drawing
tools; 2) search/replace; 3) importation of Word files.
- FrameMaker is generally more powerful than Word, but a
number of people commented on FrameMaker's inability to
generate tables, a feature Word users typically boast about.
One person remarked that PageMaker (on the Mac) was the
closest thing there was to FrameMaker, but that PageMaker
had nothing like FrameMath (the name given to FrameMaker's
equation typesetting facility).
- Frame Technologies can be reached by email at
comments@frame.com
and demo versions of FrameMaker 2.1 are available. Although
this offer does NOT include the Mac, a timed-out Mac version
IS available (at least for those in the educational
community) if you're willing to send the company seven
(count em!) blank diskettes.
- There is a review article in a recent issue (sometime in
the last couple of months?) of _Desktop_Publishing_ which
I've yet to get my hands on.
------------------------------------------------------------
I still haven't gotten any detailed feedback on FrameMath.
Are there any technical writers out there using this feature
who know good mathematical text when they see it? How does
Frame measure up with TeX, for example, in terms of output?
--
Tom Scavo <scavo@cs.uoregon.edu>
---------ewm@mdavcr.UUCP (Eric W. Mitchell) (09/22/90)
I've been using Frame for a while. In general, I agree with most of the comments Tom Scavo has summarized. I have a few additions to make: In article <1990Sep19.224520.9375@cs.uoregon.edu> scavo@spencer.cs.uoregon.edu (Tom Scavo) writes: >- Everyone who mentioned it was using a Mac IIcx or better. >An SE probably wouldn't cut it, although one person >mentioned that an SE/30 with a second monitor might work. >In fact, a 19" monitor seemed to be the display of choice >(even a full-page monitor is unable to accomodate all of >Frame's floating windows). > >- From a practical point of view, 4MB of memory is probably >minimum, and one person reported a noticeable increase in >speed (when editing large files) on a Mac IIcx with 8MB. > I've used it on both the SE and the IIcx. In general, you need: - At least 4MB of memory. - A full page display. - About 7MB of free hard disk space. FrameMaker recommends a SE/30 or better, but the program does run on the SE. I found that it was pretty slow, particularly with larger documents, multiple columns, or graphics. The system was constantly several characters back in the type-ahead buffer. For straight text editing, or just minor corrections to an existing document, you could get away with Frame okay. Another approach is to write your document without fancy formating and then apply style sheets after you have entered everything. Overall, though, I wouldn't recommend Frame on an SE unless you really have to have it (or are willing to buy an accelerator). I disagree that a full-page display is not good enough. I certainly wouldn't want to do extensive editing on a compact Mac screen, but I found the FPD was fine, particularly in conjunction with the compact Mac screen. I just moved all the floating windows over to the compact Mac screen, and voila! Even without the compact Mac screen, however, I found there was plenty of room around the edges to put the floating windows with minimum inconvenience. > - Whereas Word for example, is stable, FrameMaker on the >Mac is not. Several bugs were reported: 1) the drawing >tools; 2) search/replace; 3) importation of Word files. With regard to point 3), I found some of the following bugs: - Headers/Footers are not transfered. (!) - Style sheets are transferred, but a single style applied to many paragraphs is often transferred as multiple styles, using the original style name with sequential letters of the alphabet appended. - Scaled graphics are transferred as full size graphics. Overall, the transfer is pretty good, but they've got some problems to work out. A serious problem right now with FrameMaker is that the only formats it outputs is their binary format and Maker Interchange Format (MIF). They have various filters on various platforms to convert other formats to MIF, but they have no filters to convert from MIF to other standards. Unfortunately, this makes FrameMaker a "black hole" for documents - they go in but they can never get out. >- FrameMaker is generally more powerful than Word, but a >number of people commented on FrameMaker's inability to >generate tables, a feature Word users typically boast about. Frame 3.0 is the next major release of FrameMaker, and it sounds like many of the concerns people have expressed may be addressed. I am in frequent contact with Frame (we are buying a bunch of stuff from them) and I have been told that the release will include: - A sophisticated table generator. - Better graphics capabilities. - The original release data I was quoted was December of this year, but it is sounding now like it will be first quarter of '91 (unless they have been infected by "System 7.0" never-to-be-seen-disease). >One person remarked that PageMaker (on the Mac) was the >closest thing there was to FrameMaker, but that PageMaker >had nothing like FrameMath (the name given to FrameMaker's >equation typesetting facility). The Math typesetter is very similiar to Milo - actually, it was written by the same programmers. I have found it quite easy to use, but it has some weaknesses. A couple that I have found irritating are: - Equations cannot be resized to fit "in-line" in a paragraph. Instead, the lines above and below are bumped up/down to allow the equation to fit. Breaks up the paragraph appearance. - You can't set equations to automatically line up on their "=" signs (or anything else). This is a pain. >- Frame Technologies can be reached by email at > > comments@frame.com > I have found Frame quite responsive to my questions/requests. Mind you, we are potentially a pretty big client, so who knows how they treat the little guys. Eric Disclaimer: I have no connection to Frame except as a relatively happy user. My comments are based on my experience evaluating the product as a possible standard DTP/WP product for my company. MDA is in no way responsible for the opinions and statements expressed here.
ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) (09/24/90)
On 21-Sep-90 in Re: FrameMaker (summary) user Eric W. Mitchell@mdavcr. writes: > - Equations cannot be resized to fit "in-line" in a paragraph. > Instead, the lines above and below are bumped up/down to allow the > equation to fit. Breaks up the paragraph appearance. You can set up a paragraph in Frame that has all lines equally spaced, no matter what the size of the largest font or ascender. That way an in-line equation will not break up the appearance of the paragraph
ewm@mdavcr.UUCP (Eric W. Mitchell) (09/28/90)
In article <0azDFbC00Uh_M14GIj@andrew.cmu.edu> ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) writes: >On 21-Sep-90 in Re: FrameMaker (summary) >user Eric W. Mitchell@mdavcr. writes: >> - Equations cannot be resized to fit "in-line" in a paragraph. >> Instead, the lines above and below are bumped up/down to allow the >> equation to fit. Breaks up the paragraph appearance. > >You can set up a paragraph in Frame that has all lines equally spaced, >no matter what the size of the largest font or ascender. That way an >in-line equation will not break up the appearance of the paragraph Sure, the equation won't break up the appearance of the paragraph, but the paragraph will break up the appearance of the page/document. I don't see this as being a big improvement. I contrast this to products like Arbortext Publisher, which resize the equation to fit into the current line spacing. Much nicer. Eric disclaimer: I do not represent my company in these opinions. They are mine only.
fdm@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM (Frank D. Malczewski) (10/12/90)
Given how emasculated the academic version of PageMaker 4.0 is, and how varied even that price appears to be, What, if any, differences exist between the educational version of FrameMaker, and the real version of FrameMaker? What is the latest version of FrameMaker? What are typical educational prices for FrameMaker? The copy I saw was version 2.1, but was unmarked for price, and the person who knew the price was out to lunch ;-) --Frank Malczewski (fdm@wlv.imsd.contel.com) (malczews@nunki.usc.edu)