jon@weber.ucsd.edu (Jon Matousek) (11/29/90)
In article <1990Nov28.145957.10136@rodan.acs.syr.edu> rsholmes@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Rich Holmes) writes: >In article <4088@network.ucsd.edu> jon@weber.ucsd.edu (jOn mAtOUsEk) writes: >>Don't believe them, try it out for yourself. E-mail me your name and >>address for a free Nisus 3 demo disk. Any questions call Paragon's >... >>SoftwareEngineer: jOn mAtOUsEk; Internet: jon@weber.ucsd.edu >>%% Bitnet: jmatousek@ucsd >>Paragon Concepts, Inc. AppleLink: D0405 > >-- FLAME ON -- > >Is anyone else as sick and tired as I am of seeing this BLATANT ADVERTISING >for Nisus any time someone asks a question about MS Word?? > >For that matter, doesn't this kind of advertising violate netiquette? > >Jon, all these people are asking "How can I use this program I already have to >do what I want" -- not "How can I spend another bundle of money on software >I may not need". > >I may be wrong -- perhaps these folks really do appreciate knowing Nisus can >solve their problems -- but your pushiness annoys the heck out of me. And >maybe it doesn't violate netiquette, but if it doesn't, it should. > >Pardon me while I go edit my kill file. > >-- FLAME OFF -- >-- > - Rich Holmes rich@suhep.bitnet > Syracuse U. Physics Dept. rich@suhep.phy.syr.edu > or if you must: rsholmes@rodan.acs.syr.edu > "The United States -- Making the World Safe For Monarchy!" > Hello Rich, -- FLAME OFF -- I am very sorry that I have made you and a few others upset with my net postings. You should know though that approximately 400 netters have responded positively to my postings over the last year, thanking me for the information and the opportunity to get a Nisus demo disk. Moreover, there are a number of ex-Word users who are grateful Nisus came along. I personally do not consider my postings "BLATANT ADVERTISING." If I were not affiliated with Paragon I would be doing the same thing, as others have done on America Online, Genie, and Compuserve, and even here on the internet. Affiliation with Paragon aside, I have a genuine appreciation for Nisus. I use Nisus at least 6 hours a day to write C code as I find it the most convenient and efficient way to edit/view source code; my uses of Nisus are not limited to editing code however. About 3 years ago I bought into MS Word; all the magazines said it was the best, the salesman in the store said it was the best and MS was a big company who could afford to do it right. How could I go wrong? I spent a good year fighting first MSW 1.5 and then version 3. Being a programmer I have come to expect bugs in applications. What I did not expect, however, was the enormous problems Word had. MS Word has taught me one thing, not to believe a bunch of hype when it comes to software. And hype it truly is. After I started working for Paragon last year, I found out why there is so much hype. Retailers who sell software have but one thing in mind, to make money. Very rarely do you find a software salesman who has researched his products and who is willing to offer you the best software for your needs. Doing so would be costly in time and money. Instead, salesmen sell for other reasons: what they have in stock, brand name recognition, prizes from big companies to salesmen who sell the most of their software. And how do retailers decide which software will be lucky enough to sit on their shelves? Brand name recognition, and precedents; i.e. if your product was lucky enough to be the first of its type on the shelves then it will probably remain on the shelves, even if it is a complete dog! If your product does not fall into the first two categories then the other way in which it may end up on the shelf or in a retailers catalog (including mail order ads or their catalogs) is for the company of the product to pay, money or product or both! For small companies, like Paragon, this can be a real problem. There is even one chain of software retailers out there who will not carry Nisus because it will, in their opinion, kill the sales of other word processors on their shelves, and they would be losing money. Now we come to the main reason why I'm on the nets promoting Nisus: I do not want people who buy software to make the same mistake I made or the mistake others have made, by being hoodwinked into buying inferior products that do not solve their needs. I do this by providing a service that retailers will not provide; informing folks on the net about how Nisus will solve a problem, and offering a free demo disk to prove it. Is this really so bad? I realize that this is considered borderline advertising and that is why I have taken to adding the words "Try Nisus" to the title of the article. This offers the offended the chance to "junk", "kill" or whatever the article. I am interested in finding out what other folks on the net think? My intention is to inform, not to offend. If you consider my postings offensive, then tell me how I can continue to inform the folks who are interested in knowing more about Nisus. -jOn -------------------------------------------------------------------------- %% SoftwareEngineer: jOn mAtOUsEk; Internet: jon@weber.ucsd.edu %% Bitnet: jmatousek@ucsd Paragon Concepts, Inc. AppleLink: D0405 990 Highland Drive, #312 Solana Beach, Ca. 92075 Voice: (619)481-1477 USA FAX: (619)481-6154 ==========================================================================
kyt@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Kok Yong Tan) (11/29/90)
I have no connection with Paragon Concepts other than being a very happy customer. I've tried MS Word and have been very frustrated at its limitations. I'm glad that I didn't buy a PERSONAL copy of MS Word to find out the hard way. I found out about Nisus way back when it was still version 1.10 through postings by people such as jOn and appreciate their input so that I don't make costly errors. Unlike big companies, I don't have the cash available to buy a product, find out it's not as good as I had expected, stick it on a back shelf to gather dust and go try another brand. So long as the demo is free, I don't see what the problem is. After all, worse come to the worst, I could always do with another 3.5" diskette that I can erase and reuse... And, if the product does meet my expectations, hey, well, I'll consider buying it instead of its competitor. Of course, I also understand the point made that it is sometimes frustrating to not know how to do something in whatever package you are using. And that, once you've already plunked down your money and already have the package, you might as well find out all the ways to use it to the fullest. Postings about other packages can sometimes be annoying to see, especially if they're a reply to your query. (Deity knows, I've made some mistakes along these lines before.) =============================================================================== Kok-Yong Tan can be reached at: | "Oscularis fundamentum!" InterNet: kyt@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu | - Annoyed Latin scholar CompuServe: 75046,256 | I speak for myself and disclaim all ties America Online: lallang | with regard to this message. ===============================================================================
pfr654@csc.anu.oz.au (11/29/90)
Please, Please, Please Keep up all the blatant advertising. Do ANY other company's employees care enough about their product to read comp.sys.mac.apps and try to help people? Personally, Jon Matousek's postings have made a world of difference in my word processing, since I am an ex-Word man now. I used Word a lot (edited two books, including automatic index and contents) and find Nisus to be the best thing since bread! (let alone sliced bread!) :-) :-) I would be happy to read all people's comments about how to get around a particular problem that I was having - and wul be quite happy to see that some other program may well be a better solution. Just think: the $200 you might spend on some new software should pay for itself in a matter of weeks, if the program has the extra functionality that you need, and saves you time (time=money). PARTICULARLY if the person promoting the other product is willing to send you a FREE DEMO VERSION which can do everything including printing, with the words 'demo' on the print. *====*===*===*===*===*===*===*===*===*===*===*===*===*===*===*===* Phil Ryan ANU Department of Physics and Theoretical Physics Canberra, Australia pfr654@csc.anu.oz.au phone:(61 6) 249 4678 fax:(61 6) 249 0741
clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) (11/29/90)
Well, I sure hope this doesn't turn into a pissing match over whose word
processor is better... If I want that, I can just go do a "Mac rulez"
posting on the Amiga boards. :-)
Let me suggest a compromise:
If Joe User says "I need to do X in Word," then
If you know how to do it in Word, post
Else, email ^^^^^^^ ^^^^
^^^^^
Else if Joe User says "Is there any way at all to do X?" then
If you know how to do X, post
Else, shut up. :-)
^^^^^^^
Cheers, --Kathy
P.S. My personal opinion? I'm kinda tired of seeing the Nisus plugs.
--
...........................................................................
: Kathy Strong : "Try our Hubble-Rita: just one shot, :
: (Clouds moving slowly) : and everything's blurry" :
: clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu : --El Arroyo :
:..........................................................................:hedstrom@pollux.UVic.CA (Brad Hedstrom) (11/29/90)
In article <1990Nov29.092158.3623@csc.anu.oz.au> pfr654@csc.anu.oz.au writes: > Please, Please, Please Keep up all the blatant advertising. I agree. Much of the information that I've gleaned off the News is simply finding out that there is a company out there with something I want. > Do ANY other company's employees care enough about their product to read > comp.sys.mac.apps and try to help people? A few but not nearly enough. Jon's helped me out with a couple of Nisus problems already. I've received nothing from Microsoft (yes, I was a Word user also) but the royal runaround. I'm one of those people with the MathType/Expressionalist<->Word problems. > Personally, Jon Matousek's postings have made a world of difference in my > word processing, since I am an ex-Word man now. I used Word a lot (edited > two books, including automatic index and contents) and find Nisus to be the > best thing since bread! (let alone sliced bread!) :-) :-) I agree whole heartedly! > I would be happy to read all people's comments about how to get around a > particular problem that I was having - and wul be quite happy to see that some > other program may well be a better solution. Ditto. _____________________________________________________________________________ Brad Hedstrom, University of Victoria, ECE Dept. Internet: hedstrom@sirius.uvic.ca UUCP: ...!{uw-beaver,ubc-vision}!uvicctr!hedstrom
luigi@pawl.rpi.edu (John L Luigi Giasi) (11/29/90)
In article <40336@ut-emx.uucp> clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) writes: > >Let me suggest a compromise: > >If Joe User says "I need to do X in Word," then > If you know how to do it in Word, post > Else, email ^^^^^^^ ^^^^ > ^^^^^ >Else if Joe User says "Is there any way at all to do X?" then > If you know how to do X, post > Else, shut up. :-) > ^^^^^^^ > >Cheers, --Kathy Eventually intelligence boils to the top of the primordial soup we call USENET! Thanks for reminding us what we should keep foremost in mind whenever large resources are placed at our personal disposal. I refuse to reveal the indentity of the WP program on my machine. --... ...-- -.. . -.- .- .---- ..- - ..- Luigi Giasi luigi@pawl.rpi.edu luigi@aix.rpi.edu luigi@mts.rpi.edu
fwb@pollux.siemens.com (Fred Brehm) (11/29/90)
In article <4098@network.ucsd.edu> jon@weber.ucsd.edu (jOn mAtOUsEk) writes: >I am interested in finding out what other folks on the net think? My intention >is to inform, not to offend. If you consider my postings offensive, then tell >me how I can continue to inform the folks who are interested in knowing more >about Nisus. Well, how about this: If someone asks "How do I do x in Nisus?" and you answer with "Do it this way..." then that is informative. If someone asks "How do I do x in MSWord?" and you answer with "Buy Nisus" then that is offensive. Simple, huh? Fred -- Frederic W. Brehm Siemens Corporate Research Princeton, NJ fwb@demon.siemens.com -or- ...!princeton!siemens!demon!fwb
josh@athena.mit.edu (Josh Hartmann) (11/30/90)
In article <46023@siemens.siemens.com>, fwb@pollux.siemens.com (Fred Brehm) writes: |> Well, how about this: |> |> If someone asks "How do I do x in Nisus?" |> and you answer with |> "Do it this way..." |> then that is informative. |> |> If someone asks "How do I do x in MSWord?" |> and you answer with |> "Buy Nisus" |> then that is offensive. ONCE AGAIN, GOOD TRIUMPHS OVER EVIL!
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (11/30/90)
In article <4098@network.ucsd.edu> jon@weber.ucsd.edu (jOn mAtOUsEk) writes: >I am interested in finding out what other folks on the net think? My intention >is to inform, not to offend. If you consider my postings offensive, then tell >me how I can continue to inform the folks who are interested in knowing more >about Nisus. I personally don't care if Nisus is the best thing since sliced bread. I don't expect posts with the subject "Word help needed" to be replied to with a Nisus pitch. It is DAMNED annoying. Try going into any forum and answering posts like "how do I do Z with my brand X item" with "buy a brand Y item" and see how many friends you make. You may think you are helping with you Nisus pitch (I'm sure it does everything for you that you want), but try looking at it from the other side. You are asking the person to dump the $ they paid, probably 100s of hours of learning, reworking the documents they've already got set up, AND reinvest a similar amount of time learning Nisus (possibly more). Do you STILL think you're being helpful?
jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) (11/30/90)
In article <46023@siemens.siemens.com> fwb@pollux.siemens.com (Fred Brehm) writes: >In article <4098@network.ucsd.edu> jon@weber.ucsd.edu (jOn mAtOUsEk) writes: >>I am interested in finding out what other folks on the net think? My intention >>is to inform, not to offend. If you consider my postings offensive, then tell >>me how I can continue to inform the folks who are interested in knowing more >>about Nisus. > > >Well, how about this: > > If someone asks "How do I do x in Nisus?" > > and you answer with > > "Do it this way..." > > then that is informative. > > > If someone asks "How do I do x in MSWord?" > > and you answer with > > "Buy Nisus" > > then that is offensive. > > >Simple, huh? > >Fred >-- >Frederic W. Brehm Siemens Corporate Research Princeton, NJ >fwb@demon.siemens.com -or- ...!princeton!siemens!demon!fwb And if the answer to the question is : You can't. What have you done but waste net bandwidth without proposing a single useful alternative? Christ, you people are amazing. If no one else is answering your posts at all, then you should be glad somebody is posting a solution, even if it isn't the one you want to hear. If other people have posted solutions, use the 'n' key to move on to the next message (or does jOn slip by your office and wave a large truncheon in a threatening manner until you read his posts?). Sheesh. jas -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey A. Sullivan | Senior Systems Programmer jas@venera.isi.edu | Information Sciences Institute jas@isi.edu DELPHI: JSULLIVAN | University of Southern California
drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu (David Gutierrez) (11/30/90)
In article <4098@network.ucsd.edu> jon@weber.ucsd.edu (Jon Matousek) writes: > I am interested in finding out what other folks on the net think? My intention > is to inform, not to offend. If you consider my postings offensive, then tell > me how I can continue to inform the folks who are interested in knowing more > about Nisus. Why don't you respond to them in private mail, like you did to me when I mentioned WordPerfect 2.0 a few weeks ago? But you can leave out the part where you implied that I had hidden reasons for having a prejudice against Paragon and/or Nisus and that I was using my dissatisfaction with your support for QUED/M as an "excuse" - for what, I'm still not sure. I didn't mention any of this before since you responded in private mail but now that this thread is going on, I'd like to add my agreement that answering "Try Nisus" in response to questions about other products offends me, too, and would still be offensive even if you hadn't been such an obnoxious git to me in private mail. David Gutierrez drg@mdaali.cancer.utexas.edu "Only fools are positive." - Moe Howard
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (11/30/90)
In article <15851@venera.isi.edu> jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) writes: >And if the answer to the question is : > >You can't. > >What have you done but waste net bandwidth without proposing a single >useful alternative? You've given a short response that the person who asked the original question can reply to for a further clarification, one much shorter than the seemingly canned blather that I've seen over and over again. While I can kill later messages, I can't anticipate that I'll see a Nisus ad (well, maybe I can) in response to every query about Word. Nisus doesn't do everything Word does, and I'd bet "Mr. Nisus" doesn't know what-all Word can't do. But he'll happily answer every single person who happens to have a question they couldn't find in the "FM" with the "try Nisus" line. LOTS OF DUPLICATION THERE, and I guarantee people are going to continue to have problems with Word. >Christ, you people are amazing. If no one else is answering your >posts at all, then you should be glad somebody is posting a solution, >even if it isn't the one you want to hear. If other people have If nobody answers my question about the program I'm using, that is pretty good indication that I may need another program, especially something so commonly used as Word. >posted solutions, use the 'n' key to move on to the next message (or >does jOn slip by your office and wave a large truncheon in a >threatening manner until you read his posts?). Without a crystal ball, I'll have to read at least part of his post, and I've already seen much of it before. I suppose I could drop the guy in my killfile, but he might have something to say of RELEVANCE.
mead@hamal.usc.edu (Dick Mead) (11/30/90)
I think this horse is really dead now, folks.
clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu (Chaz Larson) (11/30/90)
In article <40398@ut-emx.uucp> awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes: |I can't anticipate that I'll see a Nisus ad (well, maybe I can) in |response to every query about Word. | |Without a crystal ball, I'll have to read at least part of his post, and |I've already seen much of it before. I suppose I could drop the guy in |my killfile, but he might have something to say of RELEVANCE. jOn has said that he will put "Try Nisus" in the subject line of all future such postings. If you put that phrase in your KILL file, you will not see any Nisus pitches, but will see his other postings. Problem solved. chaz -- Someone please release me from this trance. clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu AOL:Crowbone
lriggins@blackbird.afit.af.mil (L. Maurice Riggins) (11/30/90)
At the great risk of creating many more flames, would someone e-mail me
the phone or email number for the free demo. I got into this thread
somewhere in the middle.
My two cents is this: Yeah, I sometimes get tired of seeing the Nisus,
Prototyper(Smethers-Barnes) and occasionally Microphone II plugs. But if
they help someone else who reads them, I can live with that... obviously
some of you can't. Heck, I even find these articles interesting sometimes.
Live and let live...
--
Maurice INTERNET: lriggins@blackbird.afit.af.mil (129.92.1.2)
Opinions expressed here do not reflect those of my employer nor
constitute an official position of any U.S.Government agency.frank@mnetor.UUCP (Frank Kolnick) (12/01/90)
In article <4098@network.ucsd.edu> jon@weber.ucsd.edu (jOn mAtOUsEk) writes:
) ...
)I am interested in finding out what other folks on the net think? My intention
)is to inform, not to offend. If you consider my postings offensive, then tell
)me how I can continue to inform the folks who are interested in knowing more
)about Nisus.
)
)-jOn
)
)--------------------------------------------------------------------------
)%%
)SoftwareEngineer: jOn mAtOUsEk; Internet: jon@weber.ucsd.edu
)%% Bitnet: jmatousek@ucsd
)Paragon Concepts, Inc. AppleLink: D0405
)990 Highland Drive, #312
)Solana Beach, Ca. 92075 Voice: (619)481-1477
)USA FAX: (619)481-6154
)==========================================================================
Since you asked :-)
You're in a touchy position. I personally don't like "try xxx" responses
in response to my (many) "why is Word doing this to me?" questions.
With a substantial investment in existing documents and a rapidly
approaching deadline, the last thing I'm about to consider is running
out and buying a new word processor. (I tried Nisus, btw, and found
it less powerful over all than Word. Too bad, because I really wanted
to switch. However, I just got FrameMaker :-)
I don't consider your postings offensive, though. Not when they're in reply
to someone else, anyway. If I were in your position, I'd restrict my
opinions to questions about Nisus specifically or word processors in general.
IMHO.
--
Frank Kolnick,
Basis Computer Systems Inc.
UUCP: {allegra, linus}!utzoo!mnetor!frankmmt@client2.DRETOR.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (12/01/90)
I, for one, am very glad for jOn and his postings, although he was not my first introduction to Paragon and Nisus. I wanted to do something with Japanese, Chinese and Korean inserts in primarily English text, and someone suggested I call Paragon. So I did, and talked with Jim Bates. He told me about the Korean version of Nisus, and suggested that it might be possible to get a package deal for both English and Korean versions. A little while later, he called back, transcontinental, and told me at some length about other possible companies not affiliated with Paragon that might be able to help with my problem, and meanwhile sent out a demo disk of Nisus 2.11. When that came, it came with a cash rebate certificate for $50 if I bought Nisus at any price whatever. I did buy it, liking the demo. When I sent in the rebate certificate, what came back was not only $50, but Nisus 3.01 as well. There were a few bugs in the graphics of Nisus 3.01, which I sent to jOn. He also solicited suggestions for features that might make our work easier. Now he has sent an upgrade to 3.04, fixing the bugs and adding some features. I found a problem which seems to have been my fault, and informed him; he immediately put a hold on distribution of the 3.04 upgrade until the source of the problem was found. I think everyone at Paragon I have dealt with (not just the two mentioned) has been highly professional and the complete opposite of salesman-pushy. I can understand that some people might object to hearing from Paragon about the virtues of Nisus every time someone asks a question about Word. But they know better than anyone what Nisus will do, and though other users might be in a position to say it, why should Paragon rely on them? Yes, if there is a good solution in Word, then the questioner would rather hear that, but in the meantime another possible solution has been presented, and that has to be at least marginally good. -- Martin Taylor (mmt@ben.dciem.dnd.ca ...!uunet!dciem!mmt) (416) 635-2048 There is no legal canon prohibiting the application of common sense (Judge James Fontana, July 1990, on staying the prosecution of a case)
boris@world.std.com (Boris Levitin) (12/01/90)
clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) writes: >If Joe User says "I need to do X in Word," then > If you know how to do it in Word, post > Else, email ^^^^^^^ ^^^^ > ^^^^^ >Else if Joe User says "Is there any way at all to do X?" then > If you know how to do X, post > Else, shut up. :-) > ^^^^^^^ >P.S. My personal opinion? I'm kinda tired of seeing the Nisus plugs. The effect of this would be serious restraint of progress. There are too many features out there chasing too few packages, and the one or two that can do X are often at risk of being killed off by the status quo that we'd only be encouraging if we did not discuss alternatives here to products that people already own. I, for one, do not intend to comply. Constantly seeking better ways to do things is what made this country great. Remember, at first no-one wanted to hear about the Mac either. Boris Levitin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WGBH Public Broadcasting, Boston boris@world.std.com Audience & Marketing Research wgbx!boris_levitin@athena.mit.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (The opinions expressed herein are my own and do not necessarily coincide with those of my employer or anyone else. The WGBH tag is for ID only.)
boris@world.std.com (Boris Levitin) (12/01/90)
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes: >I personally don't care if Nisus is the best thing since sliced bread. I don't >expect posts with the subject "Word help needed" to be replied to with a Nisus >pitch. It is DAMNED annoying. Your annoyance is understandable if in fact what you want to do in Word can be done (without spending all day). But if it can't, I think it's quite reasonable to point that out and suggest an alternative product that can do whatever it is.
rcbamhl@rwb.urc.tue.nl (Marc Heijligers) (12/01/90)
I think the net is for everyone, so if someone (even if he works at Paragon), thinks he knows about a solution, he is allowed to post it on the net. I don't think it is offensive to suggest another word processor. If people having a PC, and ask how they should mix pictures, text, formulas, how they can use multi-media programs etc. etc. you would also tell them to consider a mac. Is this offesive too? If one has certain demands, the solution will sometimes not be in his present configuration, so I think everybody is free to post his or her solution then. Marc Heijligers
Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) (12/02/90)
In article <4098@network.ucsd.edu>, jon@weber.ucsd.edu (Jon Matousek) says: > > >I am interested in finding out what other folks on the net think? My intention >is to inform, not to offend. If you consider my postings offensive, then tell >me how I can continue to inform the folks who are interested in knowing more >about Nisus. > >-jOn I think many of the responses to Jon's question have been misguided as is Jon's original question. Jon was responding to a post that questioned whether his 'advertising' was a violation of net etiquette. The question becomes whether or not Jon's postings constitute advertising. It is not whether or not they are useful to some (or even many) people. If we assume that many of Jon's postings do constitute advertising, then they are indeed in violation of the stated goals of the net (see below). Again, this is true whether or not people find the postings useful. (As I have noted to Jon in private e-mail, I do often find his postings useful.) Let me quote part of a recent posting that appeared here at Penn State as part of the guidelines for using CREN (or bitnet as it is better known). While I realize that these rules only govern CREN members, I would assume that other nets have similar rules. Let me also state that I do not necessarily agree with these rules though I am bound to work within them as a user of CREN. ********** CREN POSTING STARTS ************ CREN Information Center CREN NET_USE October 3, 1990 Suite 600, 1112 Sixteenth Street, NW, Washington, DC 20036 (202) 872-4200 Corporation for Research and Educational Networking Acceptable Use Policy CREN networks are for the use of persons legitimately affiliated with CREN Member or Affiliate organizations, to facilitate the exchange of information consistent with the academic, educational and research purposes of its members. All individuals affiliated with CREN Member or Affiliate organizations are responsible for seeing that their communities are aware of these guidelines, and that the guidelines are followed, both in letter and in spirit. [stuff deleted] * Advertising is forbidden. Discussion of a product's relative advantages and disadvantages by users of the product is encouraged. Vendors may respond to questions about their products as long as the responses are not in the nature of advertising. [stuff deleted] ********CREN POSTING ENDS************* It would seem to me that Jon's responses to Word questions by pointing out the merits of Nisus violates the rule included above. However, I'm certainly not an expert on this topic and would welcome other comments. As I noted earlier, the real question is whether or not Jon's posts constitute advertising If they do then he is violating the use of CREN as his postings are appearing here. (Again, I don't know the technicalities of usenet or how posts on one net that are picked up by another are supposed to be governed, etc.) Anyway, maybe this will provide some food for thought on this much discussed thread. By the way, if anyone wants a copy of the full post on CREN, let me know. Scott D. Camp Q8N@PSUVM.PSU.EDU The Pennsylvania State University 305 Oswald Tower University Park, PA 16802 814-863-0121
clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) (12/03/90)
In article <1990Dec1.090922.29061@world.std.com> boris@world.std.com (Boris Levitin) writes: >clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong [that's me!]) writes: >>If Joe User says "I need to do X in Word," then >> If you know how to do it in Word, post >> Else, email ^^^^^^^ ^^^^ >> ^^^^^ >>Else if Joe User says "Is there any way at all to do X?" then >> If you know how to do X, post >> Else, shut up. :-) >> ^^^^^^^ > >The effect of this would be serious restraint of progress. There are too >many features out there chasing too few packages, and the one or two that >can do X are often at risk of being killed off by the status quo that >we'd only be encouraging if we did not discuss alternatives here to products >that people already own. I, for one, do not intend to comply. Constantly >seeking better ways to do things is what made this country great. > >Remember, at first no-one wanted to hear about the Mac either. Hmm, Boris... you make me sound like some sort of net.authoritarian.nazi or something. ("Ve haf VAYS of makink you comply!") My message WAS labeled "a suggestion" or "a compromise" or somesuch, and that smiley isn't there just for decoration. :-) Your point about the Mac is well taken; however, I think you missed the idea behind what I was saying, which is that, as many have pointed out, USUALLY when someone says "how can I do mumble in Product X?" it's because Product X is what he/she has to work with. I know that when I've asked how to do something, say, in Windows, I'm not exactly thrilled to hear that Desqview will solve all my problems. (I'm trying to be diplomatic by using DOS products as examples--no flames, please!) If you read the "else" to mean that everyone not strictly on-topic should shut up, you could certainly infer that I'm trying to impede discussion--but that definitely ISN'T what I wanted to say. Rather, that bit was thrown in as a reminder to folks who post things like "I heard that there was a way you could do something like that with Sidekick, or was it QEMM? Anyway, it was in a computer magazine about a year ago--hope this helps!" :-) I exaggerate, but you get the idea... Such postings generate, at best, sarcastic responses, and at worst, long threads of misinformation, attempts to correct the misinformation, flames on mis- information in general, flames on people who followup to a question that's been answered a dozen times already, and so on. As a relative newcomer to the net myself (though an old hand at BBSing), I try to err on the side of tolerance--see the thread on "dumb questions by newcomers," for example, in which I said that the only "dumb" question is the one that isn't asked. (Inappropriate is another matter entirely...) All I was trying to say is that, in cases where a SPECIFIC restriction to the question is given, it's courteous to observe that restriction in replying. Yours for free speech, even in the Amiga groups, ;-) --Kathy -- ........................................................................... : Kathy Strong : "Try our Hubble-Rita: just one shot, : : (Clouds moving slowly) : and everything's blurry" : : clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu : --El Arroyo : :..........................................................................:
nevai@function.mps.ohio-state.edu (Paul Nevai) (12/06/90)
I'm trying not to take sides and I understand well the non-commercial nature of our wonderful NET, but I bought NISUS and used NISUS and love NISUS and received a great deal technical advice from the Paragon Guys exactly because of the continued discussions going on the NET about NISUS. In addition, I truly appreciate all the technical guys who are on the NET such as Paragon, Blue Sky (Textures' wonderful author Barry Smith), MicroSoft, SuperMac, and even Apple! I wish CE, Fifth Generation and some of my other favorites followed suit too! Paul Nevai nevai@mps.ohio-state.edu (Internet) Department of Mathematics nevai@ohstpy (BITNET) The Ohio State University 1-(614)-292-3317 (Office) P.O. Box 3341 1-(614)-292-5310 (Answering Machine) Columbus, OH 43210-0341, USA 1-(614)-459-5615 (FAX)
anderson@lynx.cat.syr.edu (Joseph Anderson) (12/24/90)
anderson@cat.syr.edu Regarding that %$#@! Nisus Product. Please e-mail me this imfamous # too so I can make the nexus to the Nissus Narcissism and join the above glue factory.