cohill@vtserf.cc.vt.edu (Andrew M. Cohill) (05/23/91)
Given the price ($129) of the Excel 3.0 upgrade, I expect to see similar pricing for Word, which I've been using for 4 years. It seems like a good time to make a change. I have some questions about Nisus: Can someone provide a pointer to a review in something like MacWorld or MacUser? Is there educational pricing available, or special offers if I send you my Word disks signed in blood, or something similar? I understand that that automatic re-numbering of figures and tables is included; can you also assign variables in the text? E.g., "....see Figure figOfSomething for more information....." where the caption of the figure is: " Figure figOfSomething: Important sounding title" and the numbering is all automatic.... Does Nisus handle floating blocks? These are usually figures and illustrations that you want to "float" to the top or bottom of the nearest page and have text automatically flow around them. MS-Word lets you anchor blocks, but does it badly; often two nearby blocks end up at the top of the same page, and Word happily draws one right over the top of the other--really, really stupid. If you have to put figures on a page by themselves (no text), you are in deep doo-doo. You want the figure to float to the top of a page, but I have never found a way to anchor a page break to the block. (I'll probably be flooded with RTFM replies on this one....) How is Nisus with rudimentary page layout stuff like multi-column formats, flowing text around odd-sized blocks, and such. MS-Word is actually pretty good at this sort of thing. Does Nisus have a preview mode, where you can see a small full-page depiction of the what will be printed? Does it have true "page view" mode that lets you edit your pages in their final format? I have a full page monitor and use Word this way frequently. Does Nisus reference fonts by name? Microsoft persists in referencing by number, which causes havoc if you move the file to another machine. I know I've asked a lot of questions, but I have a feeling that there a lot of Word users who will be interested; I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of Microsoft's arbitrary and capricious upgrades and pricing.
aoki@husc9.harvard.edu (Edwin Aoki) (05/24/91)
I should start off by saying that I was a beta-tester for Nisus 3.0, but I was a user long before I was a tester. On the other hand, that bias may still come through a bit.... So, here goes. I'll answer the questions first, and then get to a few notes of my own. My comments refer to version 3.0.5 (v 3.0.6 is now available through on-line updates on Compuserve and other sources)... In article <1765@vtserf.cc.vt.edu> cohill@vtserf.cc.vt.edu (Andrew M. Cohill) writes: >Given the price ($129) of the Excel 3.0 upgrade, I expect to see similar >pricing for Word, which I've been using for 4 years. It seems like a >good time to make a change. I have some questions about Nisus: > >Can someone provide a pointer to a review in something like MacWorld or >MacUser? I forget which it was (MacWorld, I think) did a reasonably large word processor review within the last 6-8 months, in which they reviewed Nisus, Word, and WriteNow. Their impression was that Word was the best (which I disagree with, but that Nisus had some strong points that the others lacked). Byte magazine also did a WYSIWYG word processor review, and they liked Nisus a lot. > >Is there educational pricing available, or special offers if I send you >my Word disks signed in blood, or something similar? Don't quote me on this one, but I believe there are educattional pricing packages available. If not (and if anyone out there at Paragon Concepts is listening) there should be. On the other hand, I do happen to know that some people from Paragon read this, so if there aren't, hopefully there will be by the time you call them up (real nice people, over there)... > >I understand that that automatic re-numbering of figures and tables is >included; can you also assign variables in the text? E.g., "....see >Figure figOfSomething for more information....." where the caption of >the figure is: " Figure figOfSomething: Important sounding title" >and the numbering is all automatic.... Any paragraph (figures are generally assigned to a pargraph (but see below) can be assigned a Mark. This mark is then what you reference. So, you can then reference the marked area's page number, line number, paragraph number, or the text itself (this latter feature is especially cool -- if you mark something you're goign to change and then later change it, one menu item will change them automagially in your document). So in your example, you can set a mark called Fig1 and then say "See figure, page <x>" where x changes automatically. Or, if you were to actually mark "figOfSomething" as the mark, you could do that too. You can't, however, have it do numbering in the sens e that it starts at 1.1 and moves to 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, ... 2.0, etc, except by using the Command Language (more later). > >Does Nisus handle floating blocks? These are usually figures and >illustrations that you want to "float" to the top or bottom of the >nearest page and have text automatically flow around them. MS-Word lets >you anchor blocks, but does it badly; often two nearby blocks end up at >the top of the same page, and Word happily draws one right over the top >of the other--really, really stupid. If you have to put figures on a >page by themselves (no text), you are in deep doo-doo. You want the >figure to float to the top of a page, but I have never found a way to >anchor a page break to the block. (I'll probably be flooded with RTFM >replies on this one....) Nisus does handle floating blocks. You can anchor a graphic either to a paragraph (teh default), or a position on the page. Either way, the text will flow around them (only in rectangles, no jaggy wrap here), although, I've found (and have reported a bug in 3.0.5) that sometimes these blocks move to the bottom of the next page or the top of the precedign page if they're too close to the margin. The bug is a little hard to explain, but tech support assures me that they're working on it. > >How is Nisus with rudimentary page layout stuff like multi-column >formats, flowing text around odd-sized blocks, and such. MS-Word is >actually pretty good at this sort of thing. Nisus does have a built-in graphics layer, and this is pretty good, especially for simple graphics. This allows you to do text over and under graphics, as well as around. They have rudimentary multi-column support, but they claim thatthe correct way to do multiple columns is that you use what's called an included document. Nisus gives you teh ability to include any other document (I guess the technical word is embed) as a "placed page" in any other document. This coan be manipulated as a graphic, so you can have a page of included pages, each of different column width, and that works. On the other hand, their multi-column built-in support is one of the program's main weaknesses (see below). It allows for variable column spacing and multiple columns, but only once across a document. It turns out that things like headers and the like are trivial to span documents (use them as a graphic), but it's still a pain. Hope they do something about this for the next version... > >Does Nisus have a preview mode, where you can see a small full-page >depiction of the what will be printed? Nisus doesn't have a preview "mode". I make that distinction because it's non-modal. There is a page preview (They call it "Layout page") but it appears in its own window and you don't have to dismiss it to work on your document. The preview updates automatically as you work on your document. > >Does it have true "page view" mode that lets you edit your pages in >their final format? I have a full page monitor and use Word this way >frequently. Nisus doesn't let you do anything else. Also has a vertical ruler, which is kind of keen. Footnotes, endnotes, all of this stuff appear as they would on the printer (hidden text will print on the printer too unless it's hidden on the screen when you print it). > >Does Nisus reference fonts by name? Microsoft persists in referencing >by number, which causes havoc if you move the file to another machine. > Nisus not only references fonts by name, it stores the names with the document, so that if you are missing a font on the target machine, it will still let you select the area, put things in the missing font, and then when you move it back, the font changes will be applied already (if you don't have the fonts on the local machine, however, it won't print them on an attached lasser printer -- this is a problem with the way that the Mac handles printing of text). Word in the case mentioned above changes all unknown fonts to the default font and then will actually save that as a real change... AAAARRRGH! >I know I've asked a lot of questions, but I have a feeling that there a >lot of Word users who will be interested; I'm sure I'm not the only one >tired of Microsoft's arbitrary and capricious upgrades and pricing. My faviroite Microsoft peeve is the pagination. Print out a document and it doesn't paginate th same way. Oh, the printer driver was different. Of course, why didn't it warn me? Wait, I've done that and it's still different, oh, the background pagination was just slow and didn't update my screen before I printed. I see.... Nisus also has a few other thigns that are really nice. GREP style pattern searching (really nice for programming), the Microlytics thesaurus, the ability to find (search) text in multiple documents at once (even if they're not open on the desktop), 10 clipboards so you can save your text and pictures and work on them sequentially, and (virtually) unlimited undo (user setable to how many you want) back to the last save. Nisus also has a complete command language. This si a programming language (the Paragon Programming Language) which, although it is extremely powerful, or so I'm told, I've never used. Where Nisus falls down,though, is in its lack of decent column handling, its particular implementation of macros (really powerful, but only one macro file can be open at a time -- why?). I also didn't like their styles, but uipon going back and using them to give you a concrete example why, I realizeed that I didn't remember why I disliked them. Sometimes, as I mentioned the graphics anchoring is a bit buggy, but they apparently are working on this. The absolute worst thing I can possibly imagine about Nisus, however, is its help system. The system is one that I like so little, that I actually prefer to go and find the manual, look up what I'm looking for and read it rather than look up the item on help, even for things like a simple keyboard command. The help system is based on menus and is written in the command language, I think, but it is among the clumsiest things you've worked with. On a ftures note, Nisus is apparaently coming out with an XS package that will incorporate System 7 AppleEvents, publish and subscribe, and sound input (allowing you to add a sound button to any character or paragraph) for a fee. I suppose that since some people won't need the features, they're not offering a general upgrade but rather an add-on package. At any rate, please feel free to mail me with any other questions (I've laid out two books using Nisus as my layout program, so I've put the program thourh its paces and, I think, know where it fails miserably). Sorry for the overwhelming length of this article. Enjoy! - Edwin Aoki (aoki@husc9.harvard.edu)
pollock@screamer.csee.usf.edu (Wayne Pollock) (05/25/91)
>[Some questions and answers about Nisus features, too long to include]
I thought I'd add my two cents worth. Maybe even three cents worth. I also
have switched from Word to Nisus, and while I wouldn't want to switch
back, Nisus has many more problems for technical writers than you mentioned.
First off, Nisus does *not* have floating displays; what was meant by floating
text (which is what Nisus does) and what some technical writers mean by
floating displays are different. If I had a document with a graphic (or
even a paragraph) that just fit at the bottom of, say, page 3, with text
following it, and then I typed more text on page 2, this will push the
graphic onto the top of the following page (page 4). The problem is that
this will leave some unwanted white space at the bottom of page 3 (it was a
large graphic). Still with me? Now if the graphic were a "floating display",
the text following the graphic would fill the bottom of page three; the
graphic appears to have floated past text that had followed it (this text
now appears before the graphic).
Nisus has no support for bibliographies, such as the creation of reference
lists from BibTeX, REFER, Pro-Cite, or any other standard. This wouldn't
be so bad if EndNote worked with Nisus the way it works with Word, but it
doesn't. (Guess which bibliography tool I have?) The ability to put
citations in the text, and have the reference list built automatically is
very important for certain types of work.
Nisus has no suport for equations. This wouldn't be too much of a problem
since MathType works well with Nisus, but Paragon ought to license the code
and include it directly, so equations could line wrap, and be searched and
replaced in (when I change a variable name for instance).
Nisus has no support for numbering equations, figures, etc. This is so
easy to implement, I have never understoon why no Mac word processor has
this feature.
Nisus has no support for making pretty tables. I don't mean like in Word,
I have never understood Word tables, but something is needed.
Along with tables, I would like to see a command to make a chart from a
table (line, bar, and pie charts, like in MockChart only less limited).
Nisus has no support for page numbering, except the most primitive kind.
I want the beginning pages to be numbered using roman numerals, then the
numbers need to start again in regular numerals with 1. I won't even
mention section numbering or appendix numbering. (Page, section, figure,
etc., numbers are all special cases of an auto-incrementing general mechanism.)
Nisus has no support for ligatures. I have a macro that can find and
replace them, but the spelling checker will choke on them later unless I
also mark all such words with the Ignore style.
Nisus doesn't suport widow and orphan control well, and is missing several
useful styles (break page before paragraph, or a keep on same page style
that actually works correctly).
Nisus graphics are lacking a 4x zoom, or fat-bits mode, so it is impossilbe
to align lines and arcs and polygons using the 1/4 point pen size. (And a
true hairline size would be more useful!) Also missing is macro support for
graphics. A macro I wanted to write would use the "compare files" tool
to find all differences in two versions of a document, and put a vertical
line in the right margin the full height of any paragraph which is different.
Not only can't you find the height of the paragraph (or its offset from the
top of the page), but even if you could there are no macro commands for
drawing lines.
A lot of these features can be implemented using the macro language, but in
the first place a lot of people would rather write documents than learn how
to write Nisus programs, in the second place running macros to fix up a
document is not WYSIWYG anymore, and in the third place the macro language
is missing several functions that would allow some of these problems to
be addressed. (For instance, there is no way to get the X and Y positions
of a point - say the start or end of some selection - so it's not even
possible to write a macro to correctly implement floating displays.)
As much as I love the user interface when compared to Word, this needs
some work too. There are a few other ommisions from Nisus, but few people
will miss all of them. The missing features I talked about above are all
vital for most kinds of technical writting, which is why many people will
probably continue to use TeX for thesises and journal articles.
The support people at Paragon are incredibly nice and helpful, and
are open to suggestions. They do know these things are needed, but I
get the impression they haven't even started working on Nisus 4.0, and
will not in the near future. So I suppose I'll have to switch back to
TeX soon. The world is still waiting for someone to invent a WYSIWYG
word processor with the power of a text formatter such as TeX.
Having said all this, let me add that for writting letters, articles, books
(I just started my first), and general correspondence, I wouldn't use
anything but Nisus. I think you can turn out nicer looking documents faster
and with less effort than with Word or MacWrite I (I've never tried II).
Oh, and Paragon Concepts *does* have educational discounts. They even have
a free demo available. I also think that if enough people request these
missing "power" features, they would be willing to put them into a future
version.
I have no connection with Paragon Concepts except that of a (mostly) satisfied
customer.
Wayne Pollock (The MAD Scientist)
Internet: pollock@screamer.csee.usf.eduscavo@cie.uoregon.edu (Tom Scavo) (05/26/91)
In article <1423@screamer.csee.usf.edu> pollock@screamer.csee.usf.edu (Wayne Pollock) writes: > >I thought I'd add my two cents worth. Maybe even three cents worth. I also >have switched from Word to Nisus, and while I wouldn't want to switch >back, Nisus has many more problems for technical writers than you mentioned. > [honest evaluation of Nisus deleted] >The support people at Paragon are incredibly nice and helpful, and >are open to suggestions. They do know these things are needed, but I >get the impression they haven't even started working on Nisus 4.0, and >will not in the near future. So I suppose I'll have to switch back to >TeX soon. The world is still waiting for someone to invent a WYSIWYG >word processor with the power of a text formatter such as TeX. Rather than implement a wysiwyg word processor that rivals TeX in terms of its output (which is a HARD problem!), why not design a two-way TeX translator that takes advantage of the power of TeX directly? I could definitely live with the present crop of wysiwyg twps if only they were able to output TeX. That's one way to get the best of both worlds. A TeX translator is not trivial, especially the problem associated with math mode, but it seems to me that it's easier to do than incorporating the intelligence of TeX into the word processor itself. The other way, of course, is to put a wysiwyg frontend onto some implementation of TeX. Either way, TeX becomes an invisible, intermediate representation of the document. Tom Scavo scavo@cie.uoregon.edu
timothy@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Mr. Timothy Bates) (05/26/91)
In the thread which has been rating word against nisus, an important point has been missed as, i think, some comparative commentary may reveal. I use fulwrite all day most days in the process of writing my Ph.D. Fullwrite has support for bibliographies built in - just select bibliography note and you are there, ever want to cite the same reference again, just recite it. No copying no mucking around it just works. At the end of the day, your reference list is there at the end of the document. FW has sidebars which can themselves contain any note that FW supports including other sidbars. Becasue of this if you want to place a graphic exactly on the page you can. Moreover, FW supports abstract classification. You define classes like graph or figure and then selct a sidebar, picture, or chunk of text and FW will include the object into the list for that thing. From then on you can say see figure X on page yy and FW will make sure that the information is always correct no matter where your reference may be and no matter how you shuffle the classified objects around. FW comes with tycho table maker for nothing and has a macDraw environment built in. You creat tabel in tycho (if you havn't got it, get it becasue it is the most intuitive table maker I have ever seen) and then paste it as a pict into a fullwrite sidbar for accurate placement. Text will flow around it if you want. I guess that FW will put publish and subscribe into tycho so that the placement and updating features between these programs are automated, but given that they have not done so yet, this can hardly be claimed as a feature. The fullwrite spelling checker can search on any text attribute (replace all bold capital T's with little Los Angeles 9pt q's) and the thesaurus is ok (like all the other WP's that user microlytics thesaurus). I guess the list of things goes on, but fullwrite appears to have been left to rot since the reviewers decided that nisus was their best bet to stop Word from controlling literature as we know it. Given that it is still possibel (I think) to get FW and ashton tates spreadsheet for less than $200 dollars, I think that FW must be the most underrated features leader in macintosh history - especially now that the system software capabilities and memory prices are low enough to support the many abilities FW conveys. Maybe John Skulley was right when he introduced fullwrite (when it was still owned by ann arbor I think) as the macintosh word processor of the future! Cheers! timothy@ccu1.aukuni.ak.nz
cs421317@umbc5.umbc.edu (cs421317) (05/26/91)
I evaluate hardware and software for my work and we've bought FWP 1.5, Word and WP 2.0, among others. They each say they: 1. Do it all 2. Do it better. As long as you can transfer file formats, what difference does it make which is better? Pick the one that suits you. I've used Word and I like it, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't switch to WP for something if necessary. _ Gary Goldberg Census Bureau/DIR/SIRS AOL:OgGreeb cs421317@umbc5.umbc.edu
LARRY@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu (Larry ) (05/30/91)
References:<1991May24.101824.1144@husc3.harvard.edu> <1423@screamer.csee.usf.edu> <1991May26.014938.8986@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz> <1991May26.144308.7886@umbc3.umbc.edu> In article <1991May26.144308.7886@umbc3.umbc.edu> cs421317@umbc5.umbc.edu (cs421317) writes: > and WP 2.0, among others. They each say they: > 1. Do it all > 2. Do it better. > Actually, if you are in a position to buy the software at an educational discount, or have loads of $$ and don't mind how much you spend, I find FrameMaker to be better than any of the aforementioned packages. Version 3.0, coming out in a few months, is supposed to have a good Table routine, and it already does math -- not only can you write equations easily (and number them, cross reference, etc.) but you can solve them. This is probably more valuable for checking your work rather than doing calculus, but still is quite elegant. Not only does the package stack up against word processors, but it compares quite well with Pagemaker and the like. It also exists on different platforms, and can put together documents from more than one platform at once. etc. etc.
dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) (05/30/91)
In article <1991May26.144308.7886@umbc3.umbc.edu> cs421317@umbc5.umbc.edu (cs421317) writes: >As long as you can transfer file formats, what difference does it make which >is better? Pick the one that suits you. I've used Word and I like it, but that >doesn't mean I wouldn't switch to WP for something if necessary. ----- But you can't. ----- Nisus will read/write MS Word files. MS Word will read Nisus files as text only (all formatting lost). In fact, since Nisus keeps its formatting information separately, ANY word processor or text processor can read the text of Nisus files. Both Nisus and Word will read/write MacWrite I files. Neither will read or write MacWrite II files. Neither (I think) will read or write FWP or WP files. When changing from one word processor to another, SOMETHING is usually lost in the translation. Some cleanup and fixup is usually necessary. -- Dave Matuszek (dave@prc.unisys.com) I don't speak for my employer. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Freedom of speech: 1776-1991. R.I.P. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------
john@publications.ccc.monash.edu.au (John Wilkins) (05/31/91)
In article <1991May24.101824.1144@husc3.harvard.edu> aoki@husc9.harvard.edu (Edwin Aoki) writes: [Useful article on Nisus deleted] >Where Nisus falls down,though, is in its lack of decent column handling, >its particular implementation of macros (really powerful, but only one macro >file can be open at a time -- why?). I also didn't like their styles, but >uipon going back and using them to give you a concrete example why, I realizeed >that I didn't remember why I disliked them. Sometimes, as I mentioned the >graphics anchoring is a bit buggy, but they apparently are working on this. > >The absolute worst thing I can possibly imagine about Nisus, however, is its >help system. The system is one that I like so little, that I actually prefer >to go and find the manual, look up what I'm looking for and read it rather >than look up the item on help, even for things like a simple keyboard command. >The help system is based on menus and is written in the command language, I >think, but it is among the clumsiest things you've worked with. > My major peeve is the way the manuals are laid out. There is no simple listing of the macro language or Find/Replace options anywhere, and no decent tutorial on writing macros. Of course, once you've done them ,they're bloody useful ...