jessea@tiamat.fsc.com (07/11/90)
I have an interesting problem that maybe some can help me with. I believe that people need some sort of foundation for their morals to stand on. It is helpful to have some sort of guiding light when faced with difficult decisions and problems. I have come to the conclusion that I lack this foundation. I am an atheist and do not believe in any kind of overall intelligent being guiding the universe through its paces. And I definitely don't believe in a Christian type of god. So, basically, I'm looking for some helpful hints on where to look for moral guidance. I'm not asking for you to try to convert me or teach me how your particular religion/philosophy works. I'm asking for pointers on reading material on other such helpful hints. I'm not quite sure, but I think I may be looking more for a philosophy than a religion. I don't really care for mysticism or such things as that. An example is _The Three Pillars of Zen_. I started reading that, but the further I got, the more mystical it became. I'm looking more for some logical way of looking at things. It doesn't have to be something that explains everything completely by logic, but at least gives some sort of explanation on why this way of thinking exists. I also tend to lean more towards an eastern way of thinking. I believe that everything is cyclical and balance should be maintained. I believe that there will always be "good" and "evil", or "good" and "bad". But a balance must be maintained between them. To me, life is all about the struggle to maintain the balance. It is very rarely in balance, but ceaselessly strives to reach equilibrium. Can anyone help me here? Can you see what I'm driving at? I would appreciate any help as I'd rather not read every book on philosophy or religion just to find the one that best suits my needs and perspectives. I realize that I will not find one that exactly the way I think, but close is good enough for me. I'm tired of just saying I'm an atheist. I'd like to be able to generally describe my way of thinking about life and existance by just saying "I'm a such and such." Saying that you are an atheist only describes one small part of what you believe. Thanx for any help. I would appreciate it. -- Jesse W. Asher - Dynasys - (901)382-1705 Evening: (901)382-1609 6196-1 Macon Rd., Suite 200, Memphis, TN 38134 UUCP: {fedeva,chromc}!dynasys!jessea
tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Mike Taylor) (07/14/90)
The two books I have are, "An Introduction to Zen Buddhism" by Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki, and "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" by Shunryn Suzuki. The former is pretty old (the intro was written by Jung), but it is short and pretty easy reading. I have just started the latter, but its pretty good so far. The problem I have is understanding what is meant by stuff like "when you travel east, you also travel west", and "the present becomes the past and the past becomes the present". It seems to be in the crux of the Zen mind, kind of disregarding the reality that has been put upon you, and disregarding what you have learned. I think that is what is meant to have the "Beginner's Mind". Mabey I try too hard to understand Zen. "I have nothing to teach you about Zen", "keep the beginner's mind", and "if you see the Buddha, you must kill him" are the types of phrases that keep coming up. It seems very elusive and meant to be that way. --- Mike Taylor | "I've seen stranger things than you tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com | in my breakfast cereal!" - Zaphod Beeblebrox
cak0l@surya.cs.Virginia.EDU (Christopher A. Koeritz) (07/17/90)
In article <1211@idunno.Princeton.EDU> tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com (Mike Taylor) writes: >The problem I have is understanding what is meant by stuff like "when >you travel east, you also travel west", well, i don't know if i can help about this, but it seems to me, at least on an oblately spheroidal planet such as ours, west and east are merely nominal designations for the sides of the planet. if one is traveling to the east, say from chicago to new york, he is also traveling towards san francisco, which is to the west. this is obviously a special case, and does not reflect deep wisdom in the speaker (me). >and "the present becomes the past and the past becomes the present". the present is always becoming the past, eh? even when you were reading that sentence and it was the present then, it is now the past. the past becomes the present is harder for me to provide a logical rationalization, which is exactly what these koans are supposed to do. they are intended to block the normal "this causes this and stems from that and makes sense this way" kind of mind-stream we are usually trapped in. the intent, as far as i understand it, is to break through logic, feelings, desires, etc, and make one perceive rather than judging. if one allows the logical part of his mind to become thoroughly dedicated to understanding this, either it will understand it in some way or be blocked. when it is blocked, reality peeps through the mental fog most of us keep ourselves in. a cop-out-- when people forget the past, history is doomed to repeat itself. hows that for dissatisfying rationalization about "past becomes present"? > It seems to be in the crux of >the Zen mind, kind of disregarding the reality that has been put upon >you, and disregarding what you have learned. I think that is what is >meant to have the "Beginner's Mind". disregard implies ignoring, to me. i feel that the attempt is to snap conceptions in half and throw them away like dry sticks, when they are unrealistic or damaging to the consciousness engaging in them. >Mabey I try too hard to understand Zen. "I have nothing to teach you >about Zen", "keep the beginner's mind", and "if you see the Buddha, you >must kill him" are the types of phrases that keep coming up. It seems >very elusive and meant to be that way. >Mike Taylor | "I've seen stranger things than you >tay@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com | in my breakfast cereal!" - Zaphod Beeblebrox i do know one thing-- if people think the expression, "if you see the Buddha, you must kill him" is not meant for people to hurt Buddhas. that literal action would be one of those seven(?) heinous crimes that are supposed to keep one in one or another hell a very long time. unfortunately, my understanding does not extend to this sphere, although at one point someone told me that if you think you see the buddha, kill the conception that you are seeing him. you are not really seeing him, as he really is, for perceptions are flawed at the root. if the fact that you think you have seen the buddha is afflicting your mind, kill the thought. this extends to parents and friends and anyone or anything else. but like i said, i don't really understand it. hope i helped a little. Chris Koeritz.
KWOK@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (07/19/90)
In article (Mike Taylor) writes: > The problem I have is understanding what is meant by stuff like "when > you travel east, you also travel west", and "the present becomes the > past and the past becomes the present". I haven't read the book, but let me try to... The main question is "Do Space and Time have beginning and end". The meaning of above sentences becomes clear if we interpret them that space and time are cyclic. ====== kwok-hing Luk kwok@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu kwok@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu
rky8144@njitx.njit.edu (07/19/90)
<From: chromc!dynasys!jessea@tiamat.fsc.com <I have an interesting problem that maybe some can help me with. <I believe that people need some sort of foundation for their morals to stand <on. You have a right[100%] statement. < It is helpful to have some sort of guiding light when faced with difficult <decisions and problems. I have come to the conclusion that I lack this <foundation. Its never too late to get knowing the world around you and beyond. < I am an atheist and do not believe in any kind of overall <intelligent being guiding the universe through its paces. And I definitely <don't believe in a Christian type of god. OK. your arguments can be supported through means of logical grounds. God can not be diffrentiated. [so, christianity or islam or hinduism or anyother religion carries the same God.] <So, basically, I'm looking for some helpful hints on where to look for <moral guidance. I'm not asking for you to try to convert me or teach me <how your particular religion/philosophy works. I'm asking for pointers <on reading material on other such helpful hints. no problem. you will understand the philosophies/religion 'cause it needs the motivation and deep desire from the learner which you are trying to have. [God helps in such cases.] being Hindu, i can tell you that the Vaisnav Philosophy of ancient India [Vedas] are capable of answering any questions [i repeat, any question] you have. take a look at them. they are broad. people have spent their whole life in understanding the some context of it. you can try and feel the results for yourself. i don't have to tell you that you will be better off. the experiments you will do - should speak for themselves. <I'm not quite sure, but I think I may be looking more for a philosophy than <a religion. I don't really care for mysticism or such things as that. As i said - Vedas won't let you fall down on any matter. [scientific or any other kind of problem]. they are wholly natural and philosophycaly true in the eyes of scientific explanations. <An example is _The Three Pillars of Zen_. I started reading that, but the <further I got, the more mystical it became. I'm looking more for some <logical way of looking at things. It doesn't have to be something that <explains everything completely by logic, but at least gives some sort of <explanation on why this way of thinking exists. As an example from me - the mystic which you received by this book, does not have any cure. [ i think so. i assume that you are saying the right thing.] But, the authority which you except, should be able to satisfy atleast you through means of logical and experimantal methods. Any explanation given in Vedas have logical grounds. [ there are few restrictions though - which you will understand by time and going through it - and would not need to argue about them.] <I also tend to lean more towards an eastern way of thinking. I believe that <everything is cyclical and balance should be maintained. I believe that there <will always be "good" and "evil", or "good" and "bad". But a balance must <be maintained between them. To me, life is all about the struggle to maintain <the balance. It is very rarely in balance, but ceaselessly strives to <reach equilibrium. try Vedas. there is no need to boggle your mind like that. [since, higher authority is a must to learn the truth. you can not get self realization by yourself. this is a proven fact.] <Can anyone help me here? Can you see what I'm driving at? yes. one can see the path which you want to follow. that's the path of finding Truth. [ Lord Budhha also did that though his philoshopy is different than Vedas in some respect.] < I would appreciate <any help as I'd rather not read every book on philosophy or religion just <to find the one that best suits my needs and perspectives. I realize that <I will not find one that exactly the way I think, but close is good enough <for me. you won't be dissaponted by Vedas. They are not close. THEY ARE PERFECT. your experiment will prove for yourself. i don't have to tell you that you will be very happy with your moral understanding - 'cause you will undersatnd by yourself. <I'm tired of just saying I'm an atheist. you will find out- the true path. < I'd like to be able to generally <describe my way of thinking about life and existance by just saying "I'm a <such and such." Saying that you are an atheist only describes one small <part of what you believe. yes. thats right again. saying is not what you feel from inside. the way your nature has been designed is to help you understand yourself , the world, the universe, the infinite [God(yet to be discovered by you)], the othert universes, and etc.... so saying and feeling is two different things - as you have said. <Thanx for any help. I would appreciate it. no need to thank. the duty is to help. [since all men are equal] i hope you will understand the Vedas as it is - with no doubts in your mind having finished it. <-- Jesse W. Asher - Dynasys - (901)382-1705 Evening: (901)382-1609 <6196-1 Macon Rd., Suite 200, Memphis, TN 38134 <UUCP: {fedeva,chromc}!dynasys!jessea Shanti! rajeev k. yadav rky8144@njitx.njit.edu
pgd@bbt.se (P.Garbha) (07/23/90)
In article <1302@idunno.Princeton.EDU> rky8144@njitx.njit.edu writes: > being Hindu, i can tell you that the Vaisnav Philosophy of ancient >India [Vedas] are capable of answering any questions [i repeat, any question] >you have. take a look at them. Many, many westerners have also found this out. The Vedic scriptures are the oldest known, much older than the bible. And the Vedas are spanning a much wider range the the bible. It spans not over just one religion, it covers many, and over moral questions, philosophy, even architecture, language, etc. etc. Because the Vedic scripture externally seems to propagate different religions, hinduism has gotten the name of beeing polytheistic. But that is not actually true. By studying Vaisnava philosophy, you will not be limited to one philosophy. Vaisnavas, by tradition, are experts in all parts of philosopy, and religion. So by studying this, you will understand the basis of other religions very clearly, you will understand the meaning of atheism, and theism. You will also get a deep knowledge about the psychology of the human beeing. Why humans act as they act. You will also find answer to questions like, why is there violence and war, what is life and death, what are animals, and does there exist other life-forms higher than human beeings. I can warmly recommend studying of the Vedic Vaisnava scriptures. It does not matter if you are christian, or atheist, or scientist. There is something for everyone there. They will not change your faith, or religion, unless you want to. And if you have none, it will give you one. How do I find the Vedic litteratures? You are lucky. Nowadays the Vaisnava faith is spreading all over the world, so you don't need to go to india to find it. This is all due to some excellent translations of the major vaisnava litterature to english made by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, who devoted his life to this task. He have translated some books in a language understandable of persons living in this world today. some titles: Sri Isopanishad, Bhagavad-gita as it is, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Sri Caitanya Caritamrita (the first one is the easiest to understand, the last the hardest) Note that these translations (by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami) is made by an authorized follower of the philosophy, and thus are highly accurate in translation. This is confirmed by many sanskrit university professor, and indologists. (note: "Veda" is sanskrit and means "Knowledge") To: banerjee@jalapeno.UCDavis.edu Subject: Re: Review books for FLEX and ECFMG Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,sci.med In-Reply-To: <7525@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> Organization: /etc/organization Cc: Bcc:
gilstrap@swbatl.sbc.com (Brian Gilstrap - UCI - 5-3929) (07/23/90)
In article <1302@idunno.Princeton.EDU> rky8144@njitx.njit.edu writes: ><I believe that people need some sort of foundation for their morals to stand ><on. ... ><So, basically, I'm looking for some helpful hints on where to look for ><moral guidance. I'm not asking for you to try to convert me or teach me ><how your particular religion/philosophy works. I'm asking for pointers ><on reading material on other such helpful hints. ... ><I'm not quite sure, but I think I may be looking more for a philosophy than ><a religion. I don't really care for mysticism or such things as that. Well, I was getting ready to say you might want to look into Taoism. Unfortunately, it involves mysticism. I have never been much of one for mysticism but I have found Taoism to be an incredibly rewarding philosophy. Nonetheless, I'd suggest _The_Tao_of_Pooh_ by Benjamen Hoff (Penguin Books). It's a fun and humorous book, so I think you would probably like it even if you end up concluding that Taoism is too "mystical". Hope this helps, Brian R. Gilstrap gilstrap@swbatl.sbc.com gilstrap@swbatl.swbt.com gilstrap@swbatl.uucp ...!{texbell,uunet}!swbatl!gilstrap -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You spend your whole life just piling it up there. You got stacks and stacks and stacks. Then Gabriel comes and taps you on the shoulder, but you don't see no hearses with luggage racks." --- Don Henley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright (c) 1990 by Brian R. Gilstrap. You may redistribute (my portions of) this material for free if and only if your recipients may also do so.
roderic@vicom.com (Roderic Taylor) (07/25/90)
In <1211@idunno.Princeton.EDU>, Mike Taylor writes: > Maybe I try too hard to understand Zen. "I have nothing to teach you > about Zen", "keep the beginner's mind", and "if you see the Buddha, you > must kill him" are the types of phrases that keep coming up. It seems > very elusive and meant to be that way. The first "eastern" religious writer I read seriously was Krishnamurti. He is not specifically Buddhist, but I think he teaches the same things the Zen Masters did. Only his approach is comparitively analytical; there are no paradoxical conundrums or koans. Still, not easy reading. I also recommend the sermons of Bankei. He was a zen teacher who would give talks to thousands of people at a time. Since he wasn't just teaching to people who had given up their lives to become monks, but to lay people from all sorts of backgrounds, his talks are unusually accesible. The book "Bankei Zen-- Translations From the Record of Bankei", by Peter Haskel, is an excellent translation of Bankei's words. --Roderic T
lefty@TWG.COM (David N. Schlesinger) (07/25/90)
In article <1263@idunno.Princeton.EDU> cak0l@surya.cs.Virginia.EDU (Christopher A. Koeritz) writes: > >Mabey I try too hard to understand Zen. "I have nothing to teach you > >about Zen", "keep the beginner's mind", and "if you see the Buddha, you > >must kill him" are the types of phrases that keep coming up. It seems > >very elusive and meant to be that way. > > i do know one thing-- if people think the expression, "if you see the > Buddha, you must kill him" is not meant for people to hurt Buddhas. > that literal action would be one of those seven(?) heinous crimes that > are supposed to keep one in one or another hell a very long time. > unfortunately, my understanding does not extend to this sphere, > although at one point someone told me that if you think you see the > buddha, kill the conception that you are seeing him. you are not > really seeing him, as he really is, for perceptions are flawed at the > root. if the fact that you think you have seen the buddha is afflicting > your mind, kill the thought. this extends to parents and friends and > anyone or anything else. but like i said, i don't really understand it. "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" is one of those classical Zen sayings that can cause people who take it literally a lot of trouble. The point of the saying, as I understand it, is that the Buddha is _you_; if you're looking for external buddhas to help you out of suffering, you're barking up the wrong tree. Reliance on a buddha other than your own buddha-nature is a snare, and must be avoided to make progress. Excessive focus on buddhas, or on enlightenment can block your progress; even the idea of "progress" can block your progress. One of my favorite stories: A zen monk has been sitting in the zendo, meditating, for days and days. The roshi walks in, watches him for a while, and asks: "Why are you sitting there like that?" "I'm trying to become a buddha," the monk replies. On hearing this, the roshi picks up a tile from the floor and starts scraping against a rock, making an incredible noise. The monk jumps up and says, "Why are you _doing_ that!?" The roshi replies, "I'm trying to make a mirror." Totally exasperated, the monk says, "No matter how long you scrape that tile against that stone, you'll never make a mirror out of it!" "No matter how long you sit there with your legs crossed," responds the roshi, "you'll never make a buddha out of yourself!" |<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>| | David N. Schlesinger || "When I have nothing to say, | | The Wollongong Group || my lips are sealed; | | Internet: Lefty@twg.com || say something once, | | DoD #: 0152 || why say it again?" -- David Byrne | |<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>|