aloise@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Jim Aloise) (03/15/90)
In article <14530@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> ciula@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kim Ciula) writes:
%
% The tao that can be told
% is not the eternal Tao.
% The name that can be named
% is not the eternal Name.
%
% The unnamable is the eternally real.
% Naming is the origin
% of all particular things.
How about a discussion of what this means - as far as we're able to talk about
the unnamable, that is.Kevin.Knight@F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU (03/15/90)
I'd like to find out more about the practice of Taoism versus its writings (such as Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu). Certainly Christianity as practiced bears a strange relationship to what you find in the Bible, and I imagine Taoist practice deviates significantly from the very old core writings. I guess another way of putting it is: how organized is Taoism, in the sense of organized religion? If anyone has any knowledge of this area, or knows any good references, let me know. Thanks, Kevin
gilstrap@swbatl.sbc.com (3929) (03/16/90)
In article <14554@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> aloise@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Jim Aloise) writes: >In article <14530@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> ciula@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kim Ciula) writes: >% >% The tao that can be told >% is not the eternal Tao. >% The name that can be named >% is not the eternal Name. >% >% The unnamable is the eternally real. >% Naming is the origin >% of all particular things. > > >How about a discussion of what this means - as far as we're able to talk about >the unnamable, that is. First my disclaimer: I don't have a great deal of scholarly background in Taoism. I have read a couple of books, and talked with some folks, but my exposure is certainly colloquial. To me, the above means pretty much the following: When we try to reduce everything about "living" into words, there are vast portions of the experience which cannot be captured. Thus, you end up with an incredibly abbreviated version of the experience, which is therefore innaccurate almost to the point of being meaningless. This all sounds rather dry and stuffy but, for me at least, part of the joy of Taoism is how much *fun* life becomes. Brian R. Gilstrap uucibg@swbatl.uucp OR ...!{ texbell, uunet }!swbatl!uucibg
bridean@kentvax.kent.edu (Brian Dean) (03/16/90)
As far as I know, Taoism is not to organized of a religion. You don't have a direct line of successors like you do in Buddhism or Christianity which has the distinct disadvantage that the teachings of Taoism weren't passed down in any form as unperverted as we have in Buddhism and Christianity (not that these two aren't perverted from the original form, just that these religions are less perverted). So actually, there is a very wide disagreement among scholars as to exactly what the early Taoists believed. As far as the teachings of Taoism that you get in various books, these are more often than not the authors own opinion and it is possible that Lao Tzu (assuming he was a real person, which scholars don't know for sure about) would disagree with everything everybody says about Taoism at one level or another. But since we don't know, we can't say for sure about these types of things. I practiced zen buddhism (with a mixture of Jodo Shinshu) for about three years, but I quit out of dissatisfaction. I am now in the process of becoming an orthodox catholic although I still have great respect for the eastern traditions. I would still like to learn more about the spirituality of the religion that I left along with other eastern religions under the understanding that I can no longer practice such traditions. How do you people react to this? - Brian M. Dean -
aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) (03/18/90)
In article <14530@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> ciula@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kim Ciula) writes: % % The tao that can be told % is not the eternal Tao. % The name that can be named % is not the eternal Name. % % The unnamable is the eternally real. % Naming is the origin % of all particular things. In <14554@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> aloise@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Jim Aloise) writes: >How about a discussion of what this means - as far as we're able to talk about >the unnamable, that is. It must be experienced to be understood. aem -- a.e.mossberg / aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu / aem@umiami.BITNET / Pahayokee Bioregion Start with the sun, and everything will slowly, slowly happen. - D.H.Lawrence
klm@cme.nist.gov (Ken Manheimer) (03/19/90)
The net is amazing. Taoism is such an elusive topic. It's very nice to have an opportunity to compare with some interested people things we've noticed. And speaking of elusive, I've been fascinated for as long as i can recall with apparent inevitability of inexactitude with which we seem to formally be acquainted with the universe. It seems like we *can't* know anything absolutely. Yet at the same time there does seem to be some beguiling correspondence, some internal corroboration, between what we know and some universe that's out t/here. It seems to me that Taoism is a lot about ways to develop the ability to be involved with the real and human reality and reduce the ways we are diverted by inessential or misleading avenues and byways... I think that people seek religions in order to reconcile discrepancies and lacks in the world models that are products of peoples rigorous rational endeavors, particularly in how those world models relate, or fail to relate, to both the larger and smaller aspects of people's personal, more immediate concerns. Ie, not just what is the world, but how can we live with it better? I believe that what we can explicitly say is less than what we can know, and what we can know is less than what we are prone to (consciously) apprehend, and what we tend to consciously apprehend is (very likely) less than what's out t/here. I think Taosism says that in a way we really do apprehend everything, but there is an art to integrating it, to cooperating or collaborating with reality. I think Taoism (and many offshoots and alternatives, one way or another) suggests that there's an art to participating more fully in the world, and that the key to honing these intuitive and rational sensibilities, to getting them in tune with the world, is in increasing the degree to which we aim for participating in our situations at any and every moment. Further, that developing this encompassing participation is the key to reconciling one's misgivings and mistakings in the world.... Sweet. "Confucious said, 'Your will must be one. Do not listen with your ears but with your mind. Do not listen with your mind but with your vital energy. Ears can only hear, mind can only think, but vital energy is empty, receptive to all things. Tao abides in emptiness. Emptiness is the fasting of mind.'" - Chuang Tsu inner chapters, trans. Gia-Fu-Feng and Jane English Stink u smelly mulch, ken. (I won't be able to follow this discussion for a few weeks, i'm supposed to be leaving for two weeks of vacation (will in a moment, thanks)... Cheers.)
stephen@bpa.bell-atl.com (Stephen C. Arnold) (03/19/90)
Does anyone have a public domain copy of the Dao De Jing (or however you spell it in English) and if they do, could it be put on the net? Thanks Steve
alms@cambridge.apple.com (Andrew L. M. Shalit) (03/19/90)
There are three facets of Taoism to consider:
1) Taoism as it is presented by original scripture (Lao Tzu, etc)
2) Taoism as it is currently practiced in China
3) Self-styled western `Taoists' who have read (1) but don't know
anything about (2)
I believe (2) is a lot more complex than (1). There is a fair amount
of ritual, relationships with spirits, magic kinds of things, etc.
It doesn't have the pristine simplicity of (1).
It's naive of Westerners to think that Taoism could retain its purity
any more than Christianity (wrt to being a direct expression of
the scriptures). Also, (1) is such an anarchic system, it would be
difficult for real `schools' to remain true to it.
If anyone's interested, there is a vegetarian Chinese Restaurant
in San Fransisco's China Town, which is run by traditional Chinese
Taoists. There is a Taoist temple upstairs. When I ate there, there
was a death ceremony going on, with lots of incense and gongs and
embroidered robes. . .
-andrew
alms@cambridge.apple.comjstern@orion.oac.uci.edu (Jeff Stern) (03/20/90)
I liked your discussion of the Tao, how to discuss it (or not!) and live with it, Ken. And I liked your signature, "..stink you smelly mulch!" ...You didn't happen to do any landscaping when you were younger, did you? :) Jeff Stern. _______________________________________________________________________ / \ | jstern@orion.oac.uci.edu 72647.1527@compuserve.com | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | After considering the great outlay of development assistance pro- | | vided by the state, the cave-dwellers decided to return to their | | cave. They reasoned: "If the government was willing to spend so | | much money to bring us out of the cave, there must be something of | | value in it." | | --Anthropology Newsletter, on the Chinese cave-dwelling Miao/Hmong. | \_______________________________________________________________________/
kayvan@mrspoc.Transact.COM (Kayvan Sylvan) (03/21/90)
In article <14593@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> bridean@kentvax.kent.edu (Brian Dean) writes: > have great respect for the eastern traditions. I would still like > to learn more about the spirituality of the religion that I left > along with other eastern religions under the understanding that > I can no longer practice such traditions. > How do you people react to this? Your choice of religion is entirely in your hands. At least you made the decision (which is not written in stone, probably) after looking at alternatives. Unlike so many who do not even get the chance to choose. How do you reconcile the "rules and regulations" of Catholicism with the world view that you formerly held as a result of your exposure to buddhism? Is there a way of integrating the two worlds? Curious, ---Kayvan -- | Kayvan Sylvan @ Transact Software, Inc. -*- Los Altos, CA (415) 961-6112 | | Internet: kayvan@{mrspoc.Transact.com, eris.berkeley.edu, molto.ig.com} | | UUCP: ...!{apple,pyramid,bionet,mips}!mrspoc!kayvan "Imagine Cute Saying" |
rsp@PacBell.COM (Steve Price) (03/21/90)
In article <14593@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> bridean@kentvax.kent.edu (Brian Dean) writes: > > I practiced zen buddhism (with a mixture of Jodo Shinshu) for >about three years, but I quit out of dissatisfaction. I am now >in the process of becoming an orthodox catholic although I still >have great respect for the eastern traditions. I would still like >to learn more about the spirituality of the religion that I left >along with other eastern religions under the understanding that >I can no longer practice such traditions. > How do you people react to this? I'd like to know more about your "dissatisfaction." My reaction: (First a bit of personal background as context...) I have read a lot on Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism in texts on comparative religions and in books by Suzuki, Christmas Humphreys, Alan Watts, etc. I was raised as a Seventh-day Adventist (a strict Protestant group) and taught English at SDA high schools and colleges until I was 30. Then I became an Episcopalian. That was almost 9 years ago. Since then I find myself more and more drawn to a blend of "orthodox catholic" spirituality and Buddhist insights. My priest encourages me in this path. In fact, during Lent this year my parish is sponsoring a 5 week series of meetings on the topic of eastern religious insights. 2 weeks ago we were lead in Hindu hymns by a local Hindu devotee who has dedicated her life to the Bahki Path (sorry if I spell incorrectly -- I'm not much of a speller in English, forget about Sanskrit!). Next week we will hear from a Buddhist on Zen Medition. What all this has done for me is to build a great respect for the insights and brilliance of Eastern systems, while at the same time showing me that the catholic tradition also contains pointers to the same values. I am more than ever convinced that inspite of the very real differences between us and our religious forms, we are ONE human family. I find that the prayers, liturgies, myths, rituals, and hymns of catholic Christianity speaking deeply to me of the same sense of wonder and mystery of Being that Zen, Tao and Hindu masters point to. I think that each Path is very mixed up in the traditions and cultures of the people in which the Traditions arose, and for me, I am glad that my spiritual yearnings can be met by a spiritual tradition from my own culture (since I don't really want to learn Sanskrit, Japanese, Indian or Chinese - or even Latin, for that matter.) -- Steve Price UNIX: pacbell!pbhyf!rsp PHONE: (415)823-1951 ...argument does not teach children or the immature. Only time and experience does that. Doris Lessing
kr0u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin William Ryan) (07/11/90)
I am interested in Taoism, from what I have heard of it, but I am
lacking in knowledge of good texts. The best I've read so far is 'The
Tao Of Pooh', which is certainly interesting but just as certainly one
man's interpretation. Can anyone point me at good reading on this topic?
kwr
Internet: kr0u+@andrew.cmu.eduMMAC@vax.oxford.ac.uk (The_Edible_Dormouse) (07/26/90)
Just a brief note---"The Tao of Pooh" by Benjamin Hoff is most certainly an entertaining boiok but is sadly marred by Hoff's somewhat bizarre (and, I am afriad to say, egotistical) view of Taoism. It is nowhere near so strictly anti-intellectual as he makes out and I find it very appealing as a simple moral philosophy without having to take on baord any of the mysticism. I am, by profession, a scientist who does not accept mysticism very readily yet many of my friends call me a Taoist (I don't use the label, but I try to avoid them...) Read the Tao te Ching and translations of Chuang Tzu, also many other good books on the subject and *make your own mind up*. May I quote a little Toaist tale? Thanks :-) Studrnt has been debating philosophy with his master for an hour or so. The master has run rings round the student, quoting texts, history, people as examples and countering the student's every argument. In despair the student says: S> But master, you are meant to be wise not argumentative to which the master replies M> Right now, I feel like having an argument. Live free. Edi =============================================================================== MMAC@UK.AC.OX.VAX (Janet) = The opinions expressed above are MMAC%VAX.OX.AC.UK@UKACRL.BITNET (Bitnet) = not necessarily those of any person MMAC%VAX.OXFORD.AC.UK@NSS.CS.UCL.AC.UK = living, dead, undead or the subject (Internet) = of a Schrodinger's cat experiment. "Trust me I'm a Physicist !" (DoD #162) = They may or may not be my own. ===============================================================================