hugh@achilles.adelaide.edu.au (Hugh Garsden) (12/10/90)
I have another question about reincarnation. Presumably our rebirth consciousness, soul, or whatever, exists outside and apart from the material universe. This means that it is not subject to the natural laws of space and time. Therefore, is there any reason why I could not be reincarnated in the _past_ (i.e. the past according to the current direction of time in the universe). Or, weirder still, could I be reincarnated in my own _present_. This may sound a bit silly, but surely it is an interesting question which deserves an answer (and I am interested in the answer for other reasons than pure curiosity, but I won't go into that here). Why do I have to be reincarnated in the future? ----- Hugh Garsden University of Adelaide hugh@cs.adelaide.edu.au
esot@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Eric Sotnak) (12/11/90)
In article <1990Dec10.030247.15986@nas.nasa.gov> hugh@achilles.adelaide.edu.au (Hugh Garsden) writes: >Therefore, is there any reason why I could not be reincarnated >in the _past_ (i.e. the past according to the current direction >of time in the universe). Or, weirder still, could I be >reincarnated in my own _present_. There is a non-standard interpretation of the doctrine of rebirth (not reincarnation -- reincarnation is the voluntary rebirth of a bodhisattva resulting from his/her vow) which may address this concern and also the other concern you have alluded to. On this interpretation, rebirth is a metaphorical description of the passage from one (type of) psychological state to another. For example, an unenlightened person whose personality is characterized by anger is (often) reborn as a titan or avenging demon (or whatever you want to translate asura as). The metaphorical reading of this is that anger tends to assert itself as an enduring personality trait, so that being angry once is likely to lead to further occurences of a like psychological state. It is likewise with all sorts of other psycological states/character dispositions/etc. According to the law of karma (psycho-physical causality) each event-type (physical and psychological) tends to produce other events or states according to its basic character. The enlightened person gains mastery over his/her own mind and body, and therefore over his or her karma insofar as his/her actions produce consequences according to the preceding psychological states, etc. The enlightened person is thus able to free him/herself from the cycle of birth and rebirth, death and redeath. The answer to your question about why one cannot be reborn in one's past is thus that (a) it would violate the law of causality and (b) there is no soul or self "outside space and time" (nor in it!) to be reborn. (I appologize for any infelicities of expression resulting from my being too lazy to go back and correct them). EOS
jwl@mvutd.att.com (James W Lacey) (12/12/90)
In article <1990Dec10.030247.15986@nas.nasa.gov>, hugh@achilles.adelaide.edu.au (Hugh Garsden) writes: > > I have another question about reincarnation. > > Presumably our rebirth consciousness, soul, or whatever, > exists outside and apart from the material universe. This > means that it is not subject to the natural laws of space > and time. > > Therefore, is there any reason why I could not be reincarnated > in the _past_ (i.e. the past according to the current direction > of time in the universe). Or, weirder still, could I be > reincarnated in my own _present_. > > This may sound a bit silly, but surely it is an interesting ^^^^^ > question which deserves an answer (and I am interested in the answer > for other reasons than pure curiosity, but I won't go into that here). > Why do I have to be reincarnated in the future? More like "idle speculation." Re-birth can also be looked at as a process that the universe goes through continuously. The person that you were 10 minutes ago is not the same person now reading this note. Jim Lacey my opinions are my own
kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Keith Evans) (12/14/90)
In <1990Dec11.022245.11063@nas.nasa.gov> esot@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Eric Sotnak) writes: >In article <1990Dec10.030247.15986@nas.nasa.gov> hugh@achilles.adelaide.edu.au (Hugh Garsden) writes: >>Therefore, is there any reason why I could not be reincarnated >>in the _past_ (i.e. the past according to the current direction >>of time in the universe). Or, weirder still, could I be >>reincarnated in my own _present_. > There is a non-standard interpretation of the doctrine of rebirth (not >reincarnation -- reincarnation is the voluntary rebirth of a bodhisattva >resulting from his/her vow) which may address this concern and also the >other concern you have alluded to. Reincarnation is a bad word because life is eternal, at death one's life becomes latent. > The enlightened person gains mastery over his/her own mind and body, and >therefore over his or her karma insofar as his/her actions produce >consequences according to the preceding psychological states, etc. The >enlightened person is thus able to free him/herself from the cycle of >birth and rebirth, death and redeath. Ths cycle is continuous eternally. One gains freedom from the sufferings of birth and death, as one's problems in life are chosen to show others the power of Buddhism and thereby lead them to the way. -- Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. Respectfully, Keith Evans kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov
kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Keith Evans) (12/14/90)
>I have another question about reincarnation. Hi Hugh, >Presumably our rebirth consciousness, soul, or whatever, >exists outside and apart from the material universe. This >means that it is not subject to the natural laws of space >and time. Preseumably according to whom or what? Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism doctrine says that our life is one with the universe and that when we die (actually die is a bad word for life is eternal, when our life becomes latent, it is manifest now), our life merges with the life of the universe until the conception of our next life. >Therefore, is there any reason why I could not be reincarnated >in the _past_ (i.e. the past according to the current direction >of time in the universe). Or, weirder still, could I be >reincarnated in my own _present_. The laws of Buddhism do not violate the laws of the universe for they are not separate as is already assumed in your question. >This may sound a bit silly, but surely it is an interesting >question which deserves an answer (and I am interested in the answer >for other reasons than pure curiosity, but I won't go into that here). You've said that before. Are you writing a book? >Why do I have to be reincarnated in the future? Buddhism is based on cause and effect. If the effect is to be born before the cause that would violate causality. The cause one makes in this life (and in all previous lifes) determine ones next life(s). Being reincarnated in the past again violates causality. -- Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. Respectfully, Keith Evans kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov
hugh%chook.adelaide.edu.au@augean.ua.OZ.AU (Hugh Garsden) (12/17/90)
Ok, I have much to understand about this topic. But I do want to understand it. Unless we believe in pantheism, at some stage (or level of consciousness) we _must_ be outside the realm of the physical universe. If you will allow me to use the term "Absolute", I believe that the physical universe is in some sense a crystallization of a grosser form of consciousness (i.e. matter) which is still the Absolute, but does not know itself as such. A Zen Buddhist says it like this: the physical universe is the lowest level of the rung of a ladder, the Absolute is the highest rung of the ladder _and_ the wood from which the ladder is made. Another thing that I have read is that the Absolute exists at every point of space and time, if it didn't then we would be reduced to pantheism, or at the other extreme, a belief that the universe is somehow created by the Absolute and exists seperately from it, in which case the Absolute wouldn't be the Absolute. Surely space/time is merely an artifact of the gross realm in which we live. At some stage then, we must transcend it. Perhaps we cannot transcend it even when we achieve enlightenment, as long as we are connected to our body. Perhaps we have to be enlightened _and_ "dead" to do this. And perhaps at that level there is no such thing as causality. No doubt I have said a lot of things here that people disagree with or think have been confused. Feel free to correct me. I am also not sure that all eastern religions agree on this topic. ----- Hugh Garsden University of Adelaide hugh@cs.adelaide.edu.au
chee1a1@jetson.uh.edu (12/18/90)
>From: hugh@achilles.adelaide.edu.au (Hugh Garsden), NAS Program, NASA Ames Resea >Date: 10 Dec 90 03:02:47 GMT >This may sound a bit silly, but surely it is an interesting >question which deserves an answer (and I am interested in the answer >for other reasons than pure curiosity, but I won't go into that here). >----- >Hugh Garsden >University of Adelaide >hugh@cs.adelaide.edu.au Whatever is your motive I'd try to answer your question. >I have another question about reincarnation. >Presumably our rebirth consciousness, soul, or whatever, >exists outside and apart from the material universe. This >means that it is not subject to the natural laws of space >and time. The material things are subject to the physical laws of the universe. It could be gravity, other electromagnetic laws, or law of change. On the hand, the mentality or the mind is subject to some laws too. For example when we see something nice, we start liking it, start having pleasent feelings about it, get attached to it etc. Then if this nice thing changes we start feeling bad about it etc. On the other hand if we come across something repulsive something we do not like, we start feeling unpleasent about it, may get angry in mind etc. These things happen to our mind irrespective of our beliefs or views, of our 'association' with ('belonging' to) one race or another, or of our 'association' with ('belonging' to) one culture or another. Basically, there are patterns to which our mentality is subject to also. We do not understand them easily because we are too busy, or we are obsessed with views and beliefs which we have grasped as ours. Are these laws related to time? In *one sense* yes, because of the sequence of events that occur. So there is a time relationship to the events occuring in mind if you regard sequencing events as related to time (here, the term time is used loosely, and as a relative term). For example, you see something, then as a consequence you get pleasent feelings, you like it, then grasp it mentally (as this is mine etc.). These are sequences of events, in order, one causing another. Therefore, past is relative to the present. The thoughts that occured in your mind a moment ago gives way to another thought at the present moment. The 'thought' you had yesterday is not present today. But you may have similar thoughts ,or for example, if you hear or see today the same thing you liked yeseterday you'll get the same thought "Oh I like it". Suppose at 9 am yesterday you drove by something pleasent and thought "Oh I love that", then after that you did reading, did your work, reasearch etc.. Then again 9am today you drove by the same thing and again thought "Oh I love that". Between 9am yesterday and 9am today several other thousands of thoughts came to your mind. So it cannot be the 'same exact thought' you had in the two instances. This appears the same because either we recollected yesterday when we came across the same thing today or our set behavior pattern elicit the similar thought. >Therefore, is there any reason why I could not be reincarnated >in the _past_ (i.e. the past according to the current direction >of time in the universe). Or, weirder still, could I be >reincarnated in my own _present_. (If this question meant: could I relive in the past? No you cannot. You may recollect your past or try to get thoughts similar to what you had in the past) It is a continous stream occuring one after another but yet different. This does not mean that there is no link between past, present and future. Whether it is weird or not you existed as a baby, as a child and grew into a youth. Similarly, extrapolating to the future you will become an old person. Mentally, if you look at the existence within the same life period you are subjected to the mental laws (or behaviors). Weird or not you are different from your past child now (grown mature phsically and mentally) - or if you like the term reincarnated better you are 'reincarnated' from your past. At the same time you may have kept some of childhood traits, memories etc. which link you to your past. Similarly, when you grow old (phsically weaker and mentally mature), you may still have traits, memories etc. of your younger ages. You are subject to the mental behavior patterns (or laws - which may not be the right word, because law could mean some rule laid down by another person). >This may sound a bit silly, but surely it is an interesting >question which deserves an answer (and I am interested in the answer >for other reasons than pure curiosity, but I won't go into that here). >Why do I have to be reincarnated in the future? >----- >Hugh Garsden >University of Adelaide >hugh@cs.adelaide.edu.au It's a continuous process of becoming. Your present thoughts are the predecessors to your future. Out of not knowing the future we keep wishing for it, or grasping things making wishes about future. If your present is not directed properly how could you gurantee your future. Because it is your present thought that is linking to the future. (I neither mean complete determinisim nor say someone outside is determining your destiny - because you can put forth your effort to cultivate better thoughts etc.). (someone else had explained earlier about consequences of the present thoughts in the future) If your live today in the present, here and now, with full awareness then you could know whether you have to be 'reincarnated' in the future or whether you want to be 'reincarnated' in the future. (Cynically, a person can say it was not me who was in the past, or it is not me who is going to be in future. But if you look at yourself honestly in reality you think: "I was like this, I did this, I did that" or "I will do that, I will be like that, I will have that" and so on. It is me who worries about my past or worry about my future etc. Therefore, at one level abstinence from acts that will bring me unappiness and worries and doing things that will bring happiness, comfort etc. is a benefit to me. Thinking further, dangers of the things done in the past might still hang around or there are uncertainities about future. Therefore at a higher level finding this linking 'I' and solving this 'I' puzzle becomes more important to some) (note: the word reincarnation have different meanings. However, the continuous process of becoming is translated as rebirth) Bandula Jayatilaka (Discussion is a blessing. But we should be aware, know ourselves, and not let anger or arrogance overcome us)