[soc.religion.eastern] Question on detachment

surge@en.ecn.purdue.edu (PhD-in-Training) (11/29/90)

I am a novice to Buddist ideas and there is one question that has
been gnawing at me about detachment.  I understand (to some
extent) that attachment to objects in this world leads to misery
or unsatisfaction (the first noble truth) and that detachment
from desire is the first step to freedom from this misery and
cycle of birth.  However, if I imagine myself completely detached
emotionally from all things and desiring almost nothing, don't I
lose a quality of being alive?  Isn't passion an integral part of
living?  Detachment makes me think of the character Spock from
the TV series "Star Trek", something that is more of a machine
than human.  If one is detached from feeling misery, does one
lose touch with all feelings (good or bad)?  It seems like one
must lose the good feelings in life to rid oneself of the bad.

I know that it takes time to understand such matters, but maybe
someone can point me in the right direction.  Thanks.

-- 
...........................................................................
TIE(TakeItEasy),        :  I said to the almond tree
    Surge               : "Sister, speak to me of God,"      Saint Francis
                        :  And the almond tree blossomed.      of Assisi        ........................surge@ecn.purdue.edu...............................

kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Keith Evans) (11/30/90)

In <1990Nov29.005643.6034@nas.nasa.gov> pur-ee!surge@en.ecn.purdue.edu (PhD-in-Training) writes:

>extent) that attachment to objects in this world leads to misery
>or unsatisfaction (the first noble truth) and that detachment
>from desire is the first step to freedom from this misery and
>cycle of birth.  However, if I imagine myself completely detached
>emotionally from all things and desiring almost nothing, don't I
>lose a quality of being alive?  Isn't passion an integral part of
>living?  Detachment makes me think of the character Spock from
>the TV series "Star Trek", something that is more of a machine
>than human.  If one is detached from feeling misery, does one
>lose touch with all feelings (good or bad)?  It seems like one
>must lose the good feelings in life to rid oneself of the bad.

The idea of detachment is prevalent in Hinayana (lesser teaching) Buddhism.
Being human beings it is really hard to be detached. But if you put
attachment to objects as the first and foremost principle of your 
life, yes it will definietly lead to suffering, because it is like
slandering the one Law of Buddhism (slander is the worst thing you
could do). 

The idea is to use one's worldly attachments to gain enlightenment. In
Nichiren Shoshu this Law is called Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. By chanting this
and basing one's life on this (the ultimate law of cause and effect),
then one is actually in the life-condition of Buddhahood. So the more
you chant about your desires/problems, then the more often you are in
the state of Buddhahood. 

This also allows you to fulfill your desires/solve your problems. Many
religions try to deny worldly attachments. But it doesn't really work
(try it). By actually fulfilling all your desires, you soon realize
that they are not true happiness and after a while one gains a real
understanding of the transience of this life and lives in such a way
that one's immutable karma (karma to be recieved in future lives) will
be eradicated.

--
   Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
            Respectfully,
  	         Keith Evans		kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov

chee1a1@jetson.uh.edu (11/30/90)

 pur-ee!surge@en.ecn.purdue.edu (PhD-in-Training), Purdue University Engine
 asks:
 
>I am a novice to Buddist ideas and there is one question that has 
>been gnawing at me about detachment.  I understand (to some
..
>I know that it takes time to understand such matters, but maybe   

>someone can point me in the right direction.  Thanks.

  After writing about your view of detachment it looks like you arrived
at some right grasp of the idea at the end when you said that you know it 
takes time to understand such matters.  It is really true that you yourself
has to findout from within whether detachment is good or bad.  I'd try
to explain as much as I could.  However,  all the explanations, reasonings
logic,philosophy etc. does not have any meaning if ones life experience
is not analysed mindfully by oneself.

   If you try to imagine being detached while still having attachements
                 -------
 then you perceive detachment as negative.  But you have to analyse and
                                                            -------
 think with relative to your own experience to find out where the
attachment really leading a person to. You could look at attachment
from different perspectives at different levels.  I meant different levels
here because the degree of attachment and the things people are attached
to differ from one person to another.  As an example, for a drug addict
attachment to drugs for him is good, he would go after it in spite
of the pain he goes through afterwards mentally or physically.  For
a non-addict who could see the pain an addict goes through can think
how the attachement is really making the addict a slave and suffer.

  At another level for us living in all the comforts etc. we get attached
to them and it is hard for us to see how getting rid of these attachments
can be more positive.  For some the search for the meaning of attachments
begin when unexpected happens.

Where does the attachment really fits in a life where a person actually
has to depart from the niceties and attachments.  There are various
parabales, stories given to illustrate this.  One I quote from memory.
A person going in the jungle is being chased by a wild beast (eg. say 
a tiger). He sees a pit (or a hole) where there are snakes at the bottom.
He hang on to a creeper and tries to escape by going into the pit.  But
he sees a honeycomb hanging around and starts licking it.  He enjoys the
honey thinking about its good taste while he faces dangers from the
beast chasing him, snakes in the pit, and may be the creeper he is hanging
from may break.  This story is used to illustrate the plight of a person
enjoying the attachements to the fullest while getting battered by the
unavoidable unsatisfactoriness of life. 
  Sensual pleasures give happiness (or comfort or whatever good name you
want to call it). Not only there is a good side to it but also there is
a danger or a negative side to it.  It is this negative side that makes
the detachment the right solution to it.
  Attachments become negative in the sense if a person neglects
everything and gets carried away by the attachements.  Therefore, as
person develops more and more mentally he starts seeing negative effects
of attachement.  That is why some people would ultimately go to a homeless
state giving up the worldly life completely. 

 This does not mean for those who wants to lead a worldly life there
are no happiness. Everyone cannot leave the worldly or homely life.
In addition to the everyday realities, if you look
at Buddhist teachings, Buddha taught earning to support oneself and a
family etc. and not being full debt etc. are happiness for a worldly
person. He not only declared it as a happiness (or a sukha) but also
showed the ways (such as not being lazy, having good company of friends etc)
to make the worldly life a success.

[  As far as theory is concerned the second Noble Truth, the attachement
is classified into three types (i) attachment related to sensual pleasures
etc. (ii) attachement arising for an eternal existence or existence (bhava)
(iii)  attachement arising due to the view that a person does not exist
after death. (ii) and (iii) arises due to the view one holds regarding
the existence (life or bhava), and (i) arises due to sensual pleasures.
I'll rather stop here without going further into theoretical explanations
because too much explanations could be confusing too.]

 A word about simlarity of detachment and being like a machine.  It is
true machines do not have emotions. On the other hand emotions could be
good or bad. If you refer to emotions as hatred,anger,and greed only, then
by developing detachment a person eliminates emotions.  On the other
hand, if emotions include other good mental characters such as kindness
(karuna), metta (or loving kindness), appreciative joy (or muditha),
then a person developing detachment does not get rid of all the emotions.
In fact a person developing detachment has a better chance of developing
these positive qualities (or good emotions if you like to call it that way)
of the mind because she/he gives priority non-greed,non-hatred etc..

After further investigation and analysis you could add to your following 
saying:

>...........................................................................
>TIE(TakeItEasy),        :  I said to the almond tree   
>    Surge               : "Sister, speak to me of God,"      Saint Francis
>                        :  And the almond tree blossomed.      of Assisi
>........................surge@ecn.purdue.edu...............................

You could further say:
  I said to the almond tree "Sister, show me Wisdom or enlightenment"
  The blossoms started withering and started falling at my feet.
  If your really liked the flowers you cannot ignore the decay of them
  also.
  
  
Bandula Jayatilaka

david@star2.cm.utexas.edu (David Sigeti) (12/02/90)

In article <1990Nov29.005643.6034@nas.nasa.gov> 
pur-ee!surge@en.ecn.purdue.edu (PhD-in-Training) writes:

   [questions and concerns about attachment]

I have a little bit to add to Bandula Jayatilaka's posting 
(Message-ID: <1990Nov30.015335.29877@nas.nasa.gov>)

The point is not so much *detachment* as *non-attachment*.  And, even
here, the emphasis is on not clinging.  The point is not to actively
separate yourself from the world but to refrain from clinging to
things when you should let them go.

If you really want to understand the spirit behind non-attachment, you
should probably take up some form of Buddhist mindfulness meditation.
The Theravadin, Tibeten, and Zen traditions all start out more or less
the same so which one you choose is probably not all that important.
In another posting in this newsgroup, 
	Message-ID: <1990Nov27.004141.426@nas.nasa.gov> 
I mentioned a number of books that can help you get started (if you
aren't already).  I really think that, in general, it is necessary to
be practicing Buddhist meditation in order to understand the doctrines
of Buddhism.  All the teachings and doctrines are just guides for your
practice and to understand them, you almost have to have a practice to
relate them to.

The reason that practicing meditation is particularly important in
understanding non-attachment is that non-attachment is tied up with
mindfulness.  When you are practicing mindfulness meditation, you
don't make much of an effort to suppress thoughts when they threaten
to distract you.  You just attend to them as they come up and let them
go as they fade away.  You aren't attached to them but you aren't
really detached from them either because you give each thought your
attention when it appears.  Thus, the practice of mindfulness is not a
separation from things but a kind of intimate but non-aggressive
involvement where you attend to each thing in turn in the appropriate
way.

I hope that this helpful.


--
David Sigeti    david@star2.cm.utexas.edu    cmhl265@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu

cak0l@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Christopher A. Koeritz) (12/03/90)

In article <1990Nov29.005643.6034@nas.nasa.gov> pur-ee!surge@en.ecn.purdue.edu (PhD-in-Training) writes:
>I am a novice to Buddist ideas and there is one question that has
>been gnawing at me about detachment.  I understand (to some
>extent) that attachment to objects in this world leads to misery
>or unsatisfaction (the first noble truth)

one of the many causes of suffering is attachment to the impermanent,
since these things are bound to decay (whether this life or after it,
all compounded things break up.  even styrofoam and nuclear waste).
indeed, since in terms of atomic motion at least, things are created,
abide and are destroyed in the same moment (the waveform nature of
reality), what are we really attached to in this object?
whoops--mouth runneth away...

> and that detachment
>from desire is the first step to freedom from this misery and
>cycle of birth.

some might argue that complete detachment from desire will lead
to abandoning the sacred doctrines, since there is usually a desire
to study them in those who do study them.
   however, some "desires" in the conventional sense
can never be abandoned until one has attained buddhahood, or even
afterwards.  these "desires" could include: the wish to attain
buddhahood, the desire to help other beings, and so forth.
the problem is one of language, as usual.  "desire" is a term
that applies to pretty much anything in our culture, from
hungering, to needing a nicotine fix, to wanting to watch
tv, to hankering after a lover (tricky wording, eh?),
to the altruistic intention to suffer as many lifetimes as it
takes to bring every other being to complete and perfect enlightenment.
   all of these could be termed desires, but the attachments we must
sever are to afflicted desires--desires that keep us enthralled by
the wonders of cyclic existence.  desires like: wanting to watch
tv, wanting to buy glittery plastic toys, etc.  (having experienced
these simple ones myself, i feel free to talk about them as afflicted,
although many toy- or tv-o-philes will debate it vigorously).

>  However, if I imagine myself completely detached
>emotionally from all things and desiring almost nothing, don't I
>lose a quality of being alive?

yes and no.  life is a big whirling tornado that throws us from
situation to situation, and our emotions can mimic this.  to free us
from the mental vortices is an awesome promise of meditation,
and i personally feel that it only enhances the experience of
living.  most of my personal dust devils revolve around petty
conflicts with the people i live and work with (not to mention
my own ugly auto-arguments), and a distancing of the core of
my reactions from inflammatory stimulus-response patterns is
always "desired" (that word again).

>  Isn't passion an integral part of living?

(excuse any imperious statements below)
yes.  don't give it up.  just give up the aspects of it that are
injurious.  anger destroys accumulated merit.  lust pulls one
into lower transmigrations.  but when these mental phenomena
are transmuted into their non-afflictive counterparts, they
can be used to strengthen the power of the mind and increase
the intensity of one's wisdom.  don't think i'm a master of
this kind of process or anything; the best adepts are able to
perform it.  i still get furious at traffic lights, but i'm
beginning to learn how to apply compassion in those situations (for
the designer of the traffic light, who programmed it to know when
i'm coming; for the installer of the traffic light, who carried
the demonically cute little thing up onto the techno-grid over
the intersection; for the people around me who are also sitting
in their little polluto-mobiles, thinking dark thoughts about
the drivers around them and intersections in general, ad infinitum).

>Detachment makes me think of the character Spock from
>the TV series "Star Trek", something that is more of a machine
>than human.  If one is detached from feeling misery, does one
>lose touch with all feelings (good or bad)?  It seems like one
>must lose the good feelings in life to rid oneself of the bad.

Oh man, Spock's my hero.  this is the real reason for this
pseudo-educational escapade.  Spock showed feeling on numerous
episodes of Star Trek, and a distinctly subtle sense of humor.
(He's got to be a Buddhist--what else is he going to be meditating
on in those caves under Vulcan?)
But he is of course a special case, being half-human and all.
there was some controversy around on the net a while ago about
whether Spock's principles were true hollywood glitterisms, or
if they could work in practice.  well, having attempted to
practice them most of my pre-college years, i have a claim on
being an human vulcan-wanna-be.
   the results are mixed.  secondary school education is a breeze
for anyone with the faintest grip on logic, and striving to think
logically improves mental acuity.
   as far as feelings, since i am a human (and not a non-existent
green blooded, pointy eared monster), i had feelings.  my rationale
for the most part was to just bury any illogical feeling.  this of
course led to a massive mental constipation, and a dizzying level
of concretization of things (i was also a scientific-atheist during
this period).  the burying of anything irrational was not the correct
process.
   when the mental dam finally burst, i had to give up on being a
vulcan, and fine some form of self-mind-direction that worked for
humans.  one of these systems is Buddhism.  others i have noticed
good things in are Taoism, Discordia, and Gnostic Christianity.
But, concluding this massive self-explication, Spock is unfortunately
not a real human.  Leonard Nimoy is, and apparently suffered incredible
side effects from playing Spock (crying jags once or twice, and other
symptons of pentemotia).
   the process of destroying attachment, as best i know it, is to
analyze the nature of the attachments and attempt to categorize the
good and bad effects of each attachment.  strive to discard the bad
features, and one gradually purifies the mind.  this is the process
as i attempt to apply it, but not having the uncommon mode of
expression, some of the sutras will explain it to you personally
in a way that will be appropriate for your conditions.

>I know that it takes time to understand such matters, but maybe
>someone can point me in the right direction.  Thanks.
as you can tell, understanding is an interesting thing.  often the
thought that one has it is proof he doesn't.  i have
blathered a bit, and hopefully you can pick any gems out of
the main corpus of rough hewn nonsense (my nonsense, Buddha's gems).
Good Luck, hope to see you in a Highest Pure Land or nirvana
sometime real soon.  (when i get there--no boasting involved; all
beings have the capacity to become enlightened, and all will be
such oneday.  even this silly scribbler.)

May all virtues increase
and the burning of the flames of desire, hatred and ignorance be quenched.
Homage to the enlightened ones, and to you who read this.

--Chris Koeritz
Christopher Koeritz
   To conquer oneself is a greater task than conquering others.
               -- Shakyamuni Buddha

hugh@chook.ua.oz.au (Hugh Garsden) (12/10/90)

In article <1990Nov29.005643.6034@nas.nasa.gov>,
pur-ee!surge@en.ecn.purdue.edu (PhD-in-Training) writes:
|> I am a novice to Buddist ideas and there is one question that has
|> been gnawing at me about detachment.  I understand (to some
|> extent) that attachment to objects in this world leads to misery
|> or unsatisfaction (the first noble truth) and that detachment
|> from desire is the first step to freedom from this misery and
|> cycle of birth.  However, if I imagine myself completely detached
|> emotionally from all things and desiring almost nothing, don't I
|> lose a quality of being alive?

If you want to understand detachment, in my opinion about the
best example we have in modern times is Gandhi. I recommend
you read some books about him, and also anything that he
wrote himself. My favourites are -

		"Gandhi: The Man"  E. Easwaran
		"All Men Are Brothers" 	Gandhi

Being detached does not mean that you don't care, or that you don't
love. Because modern man equates love with desire, romance, or sex, 
he/she also then assumes that loving someone means wanting them.
However, truly loving someone, what psychologists call unconditional love, 
implies the capability to give without receiving. It does not need to be 
requited. This is simplifying it a bit, a good book on the subject is 
"Unconditional Love" by John Powell. Also "The Art of Loving" by Erich Fromm. 

I also recommend "Fear of Freedom" by Erich Fromm, which describes in part why 
human  beings are afraid of unconditional love, why they afraid of detachment. 
Basically, it is because human beings are afraid of being free, not
externally, but internally. This is a very important point, no human being
can acheive detachment without first being strong and secure enough
within themselves so that they can detach themselves from humanity but
at the same time then turn around and give themselves back to humanity,
without holding anything back, and without fear.

Detachment really implies _giving_ without the need for receiving.
And giving, in the spirit of love, compassion, and caring, can make us happier 
than any amount of getting. Once again Gandhi is a prime example. He was 
burning with love and joy for all mankind, but at the same time non-attached. 
He gave his life, he gave everything he had, and was probably the happiest man 
alive because of it. He was free!!

I think the reason most people can't understand detachment is because
they can't like or love someone unless they are attached to them.
They can't love someone unless they are "in love" with them. The idea
of a one-way exchange is inconceivable, mainly because of our
current obsession with the market i.e. buying and selling.

Your statement that becoming detached means you lose the feeling
of being alive indicates you think that desiring is a necessary
prerequisite for feeling alive. However, this is simply a particular
view which it is possible to change. It is difficult, and I haven't
done it myself, but I have no doubt that it can be done. 

Hope this helps.

-----
Hugh Garsden		
University of Adelaide		
hugh@cs.adelaide.edu.au

hugh@achilles.adelaide.edu.au (Hugh Garsden) (12/11/90)

     [This is my third and final attempt to get this article to the
      Australian sites. It is amazing that I can get Hugh's other
      article to propagate but not this one. --Dinesh]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <1990Nov29.005643.6034@nas.nasa.gov>,
pur-ee!surge@en.ecn.purdue.edu (PhD-in-Training) writes:
|> I am a novice to Buddist ideas and there is one question that has
|> been gnawing at me about detachment.  I understand (to some
|> extent) that attachment to objects in this world leads to misery
|> or unsatisfaction (the first noble truth) and that detachment
|> from desire is the first step to freedom from this misery and
|> cycle of birth.  However, if I imagine myself completely detached
|> emotionally from all things and desiring almost nothing, don't I
|> lose a quality of being alive?

If you want to understand detachment, in my opinion about the
best example we have in modern times is Gandhi. I recommend
you read some books about him, and also anything that he
wrote himself. My favourites are -

		"Gandhi: The Man"  E. Easwaran
		"All Men Are Brothers" 	Gandhi

Being detached does not mean that you don't care, or that you don't
love. Because modern man equates love with desire, romance, or sex, 
he/she also then assumes that loving someone means wanting them.
However, truly loving someone, what psychologists call unconditional love, 
implies the capability to give without receiving. It does not need to be 
requited. This is simplifying it a bit, a good book on the subject is 
"Unconditional Love" by John Powell. Also "The Art of Loving" by Erich Fromm. 

I also recommend "Fear of Freedom" by Erich Fromm, which describes in part why 
human  beings are afraid of unconditional love, why they afraid of detachment. 
Basically, it is because human beings are afraid of being free, not
externally, but internally. This is a very important point, no human being
can acheive detachment without first being strong and secure enough
within themselves so that they can detach themselves from humanity but
at the same time then turn around and give themselves back to humanity,
without holding anything back, and without fear.

Detachment really implies _giving_ without the need for receiving.
And giving, in the spirit of love, compassion, and caring, can make us happier 
than any amount of getting. Once again Gandhi is a prime example. He was 
burning with love and joy for all mankind, but at the same time non-attached. 
He gave his life, he gave everything he had, and was probably the happiest man 
alive because of it. He was free!!

I think the reason most people can't understand detachment is because
they can't like or love someone unless they are attached to them.
They can't love someone unless they are "in love" with them. The idea
of a one-way exchange is inconceivable, mainly because of our
current obsession with the market i.e. buying and selling.

Your statement that becoming detached means you lose the feeling
of being alive indicates you think that desiring is a necessary
prerequisite for feeling alive. However, this is simply a particular
view which it is possible to change. It is difficult, and I haven't
done it myself, but I have no doubt that it can be done. 

Hope this helps.

-----
Hugh Garsden		
University of Adelaide		
hugh@cs.adelaide.edu.au

SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET (12/20/90)

In article <1990Dec1.212606.14671@nas.nasa.gov>
david@star2.cm.utexas.edu (David Sigeti)

>The point is not so much *detachment* as *non-attachment*.  And, even
>here, the emphasis is on not clinging.  The point is not to actively
>separate yourself from the world but to refrain from clinging to
>things when you should let them go.

For the past six years or so I have worked as a volunteer with
terminally ill individuals.  Most of these people became paralyzed
(or extraordinarily weak from extreme cachexia) and often became
demented. In several cases this work has involved very intimate
relationships and taken place over an extended period of time and
was not completed until I sat with them as they died.

Recently I came across an early Chinese Buddhist aphorism:  Let him
who would truly learn, practice the Zen of the lone lamp in the death
room. (This is not a perfect quote as my books are packed away, but
the thrust of it is correct.)

It was after beginning this work that I became a Buddhist.  It
certainly unfolds the Buddhists ideas of anicca, anatta and
dukkha with relentless naturalness.  I would like to say that I
find David's comments on non-attachment as oppossed to detachment
to be very reflective of my own experiences and observations.

Detachment, it seems to me, is part of the process of arriving
at a state/mode of non-attachment.  Detachment does involve judgement,
and overcoming emotional resistance.  It is (in my mind, at least)
a process of struggle and discipline.  One the other hand, non-
attachment, to the degree that I have experienced it, seems free
of both judgement and effort.  It is very difficult to explain but
there is a qualitative difference in the way in which one "is".

In caring for the terminally ill, it is quite easy to discern those
care partners who have achieved some state of non-attachment.
They have a capacity for focusing on the most concentrated
instances of time and circumstances, and I believe this is because
they are not involved (either attaching or attempting to detach)
from the larger "drama", i.e. - the patient is getting worse,
he is going to throw up, he is going to die soon, etc.  The process
of, say, cleaning a patient who is in great pain, and changing his/her
soiled bedding without being able to remove him from the bed
can comsume anywhere from 20 minutes to 40 minutes.  But done with
non-attachment it can be a series of small actions, of precise and
careful touchings - each one with its own certain purpose, but
which cumulatively become a clean individual in a clean bed.
However, for those whose focus is on that big picture, that
goal, the process is usually a nerve-wracking and tedious one
marked with frustration and clumsiness.  I think this comes from
being attached to that "goal" - a clean patient in a clean bed,
which can interfere with all those movements and gestures which
are appropriate to all the many moments that occur before arriving
at that point ("goal").

There is the popular saying "Go with the flow", however I think what I
am attempting to describe is something closer to "Be with the flow."

None of what I have described in the above setting presumes non-caring,
rather it is the concentration and release of attention as the
moment calls for it, an engagement in the present situation rather
a commitment to an overarching ideal or goal.

>If you really want to understand the spirit behind non-attachment, you
>should probably take up some form of Buddhist mindfulness meditation.
>The Theravadin, Tibeten, and Zen traditions all start out more or less
>the same so which one you choose is probably not all that important.

>In another posting in this newsgroup,
        Message-ID: <1990Nov27.004141.426@nas.nasa.gov>
>I mentioned a number of books that can help you get started (if you
>aren't already).  I really think that, in general, it is necessary to
>be practicing Buddhist meditation in order to understand the doctrines
>of Buddhism.  All the teachings and doctrines are just guides for your
>practice and to understand them, you almost have to have a practice to
>relate them to.

I would agree with this.  The arising/being/decay of thoughts, moods,
ideas during sitting practice provides a concentrated view of
impermanence.  With continued practice, I feel, that a person
carries over into non-meditation time an awareness of the complex
"momentariness" of which formerly insoluble blocks of events
are composed.

In article <1990Dec2.215911.11350@nas.nasa.gov>
cak0l@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Christopher A. Koeritz) writes:

>some might argue that complete detachment from desire will lead
>to abandoning the sacred doctrines, since there is usually a desire
>to study them in those who do study them.

There is, of course, the Buddhas sermon in which he compares the
dhamma to a raft which is abandoned once one reaches the "farther
shore", or Ippen's like comment (from Pure Land Buddhism) that
finally even the Pure Land must be abandoned as an attachment.
I remember Ippen's comments more clearly, and he seems to be making
the point that one abandons the _concept_ of the Pure Land and
instead you yourself become the Pure Land.

Jack Carroll

tilley@ssd.Kodak.Com (David Tilley) (12/21/90)

In article <1990Dec20.011732.6053@nas.nasa.gov> SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET writes:
>In article <1990Dec1.212606.14671@nas.nasa.gov>
>david@star2.cm.utexas.edu (David Sigeti)
>
>In caring for the terminally ill, it is quite easy to discern those
>care partners who have achieved some state of non-attachment.
>They have a capacity for focusing on the most concentrated
>instances of time and circumstances, and I believe this is because
>they are not involved (either attaching or attempting to detach)
>from the larger "drama", i.e. - the patient is getting worse,
>he is going to throw up, he is going to die soon, etc.  The process
>of, say, cleaning a patient who is in great pain, and changing his/her
>soiled bedding without being able to remove him from the bed
>can comsume anywhere from 20 minutes to 40 minutes.  But done with
>non-attachment it can be a series of small actions, of precise and
>careful touchings - each one with its own certain purpose, but
>which cumulatively become a clean individual in a clean bed.
>However, for those whose focus is on that big picture, that
>goal, the process is usually a nerve-wracking and tedious one
>marked with frustration and clumsiness.  I think this comes from
>being attached to that "goal" - a clean patient in a clean bed,
>which can interfere with all those movements and gestures which
>are appropriate to all the many moments that occur before arriving
>at that point ("goal").
>

This seems (to me) to be connected with the Sutras on Mindfullness. If you
are constantly mindfull of the current moment of the current action
then you will be free of the goal. (See The Miracle of Mindfullness by
Thich Nhat Hahn).

Has the Bardo been of any help or meaning to you?

dave